Classic & Vintage - Drew gets a headset press and goes to work on a Cilo...

http://web.me.com/awcg/iWeb/Springwood/Photos%202_files/purple1.jpg

Sorry, had to do it :p

From: http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?p=9732747&posted=1#post9732747

-Kurt

Whoa.... It reminds me of Salvador Dali's painting of the melting clocks.

"still rideable" :eek:

I'm amazed. That should have been pretty hard to do...

but if the faces of the tube are still parallel, and the steerer tube fits through the hole, I don't think it would be unrideable. It would, in fact, be pretty darned cool. He should figure out how to symmetrically deform all of the tubes into a real Dali bike...

That's just the paint, :p which is never truly a solid, reacting to the forces of a hot day in Miami and gravity. :innocent:

Kurt, ya can't fool me! You're not THAT strong! :thumb:

That's just the paint, :p which is never truly a solid, reacting to the forces of a hot day in Miami and gravity. :innocent:

Kurt, ya can't fool me! You're not THAT strong! :thumb:

Nonsense. Here is recent security camera image of Kurt, working his way thru a pile of Huffys:
http://www.calmapro.com/popeye/images/bridge_ahoy_02.jpg

all kidding aside, what kind of pressure does it take to buckle a tube in that manner?
One can almost stand on a coke can (except for that bend at the bottom to allow stacking) but
minimal pressure will cause it to crumple if applied laterally. So was the headset press not
fitting correctly (or cups) and more pressure on one side than the other?
something doesn't quite add up here for me.

Marty

all kidding aside, what kind of pressure does it take to buckle a tube in that manner?
One can almost stand on a coke can (except for that bend at the bottom to allow stacking) but
minimal pressure will cause it to crumple if applied laterally. So was the headset press not
fitting correctly (or cups) and more pressure on one side than the other?
something doesn't quite add up here for me.

Marty

Marty, I agree with the Coke can analogy. I'm thinking one of the cup was started crooked which led to the lateral loading on the tube. Crooked cups take alot of press force to get started.

Marty, I agree with the Coke can analogy. I'm thinking one of the cup was started crooked which led to the lateral loading on the tube. Crooked cups take alot of press force to get started.

Sheesh. I knew it was key to get the cups going in straight, but never thought this could happen. I find it hard to believe, but Kurt could do it.

I've always said you have to take the same precautions with a headset press as with any other headset installation method-- block of wood and hammer, washer and bolt method, whatever. You've gotta be sure the cups are going in straight. The fancier tool is no replacement for eyes. I spent about a half hour recently ensuring the bottom cup in a HS installation went in right-- and I have a park press.

Still, I would think the cup would deform before the head tube. I wonder what those look like.

Be easier if you mounted a shim to have the press contact the tube at an angle.

Marty, I agree with the Coke can analogy. I'm thinking one of the cup was started crooked which led to the lateral loading on the tube. Crooked cups take alot of press force to get started.

According to the fellow in the Framebuilding forum asking about what he should do about this headtube following the damage, both ends had been faced following a brand-new powdercoat.

Supposedly, the cups were not reluctant to seat properly - that's what gets me more then anything else. I only wonder whether the powder was cured at a temperature much higher then the 380 +/- degrees Fahrenheit usually used for the purpose, and in the process, weakened the metallurgy.


Sheesh. I knew it was key to get the cups going in straight, but never thought this could happen. I find it hard to believe, but Kurt could do it.

Wasn't me.

-Kurt

Supposedly, the cups were not reluctant to seat properly - that's what gets me more then anything else. I only wonder whether the powder was cured at a temperature much higher then the 380 +/- degrees Fahrenheit usually used for the purpose, and in the process, weakened the metallurgy.

Was it still hot? :lol: I would think overheating then cooling would make it brittle and more prone to cracking?

Was it still hot? :lol: I would think overheating then cooling would make it brittle and more prone to cracking?

Your guess is as good - if not better - then mine.

-Kurt

Extreme heat etc. can certainly mess up the metal, but I just don't believe powdercoating would have reached that kind of temperature. I'm thinking the wall thickness of head tube of this bike was just much thinner than expected.

At any rate, I agree with Luker, this damage does not make the frame dangerous. I see no reason for anything other than the head tube to be weakened. What could go wrong, beside the head tube crushes further due to the extreme pressures exerted on it by the headset? Possibly a crash would take a heavier toll on this head tube than usual; but until then, I don't foresee a problem.

And yes, it looks cool. I'd make a decal of a Dali clock face for a headbadge!

Surely the cups are not square now? Are headtubes typically straight gauge?

all kidding aside, what kind of pressure does it take to buckle a tube in that manner?
One can almost stand on a coke can (except for that bend at the bottom to allow stacking) but
minimal pressure will cause it to crumple if applied laterally. So was the headset press not
fitting correctly (or cups) and more pressure on one side than the other?
something doesn't quite add up here for me.

Marty

Head-on collision at high speed. Fork and wheel are also toast.

I'd just like the headtube with the 2 head lugs attached as an art for my mantlepiece.

I don't think that tubing really anneals, so the heat shouldn't have had that effect, no matter how hot the powder coater got it. In general, the ductility of the metal would depend on the cool down period. If the powder coater just left the frame in the oven to cool, that would lead to annealing -- if it was possible.

I was speculating in the framebuilder's forum that there was built in stress that would tend to push the head tube and lead to buckling. Maybe the head tube reamer took out too much material. Either way, this is a new one.

I was going to say "that'll buff right out," but I decided the owner had been punished enough.

i would actually expect there to be stress at the opposite ends of the top tube and down tube. the change in geometry might seem small, but i'm curious to see how much of a difference it really made.

I know I'm going to hear it but here it goes, for years all I've ever used to replace headsets is a block of wood and a rubber mallet, I just place the top set on the headtube with a block of wood on top of it, make sure its level and give it a good tap with the rubber mallet, 9 times out of 10 it sets right in place, then I place a block of wood on top of it and drive it in with the rubber mallet, takes me all of 2 minutes to do top and bottom, never a problem. :)

i do the same. I'll share the flames with ya.


...and I remove cups with a big ass flat head screwdriver and a hammer. carefully.

Surely the cups are not square now?

We can only speculate, but if pressure was applied evenly, then I'd speculate they are square now. Anyway, it's easy to check. If the fork can be installed and spin smoothly, then I think it's okay.

I know I'm going to hear it but here it goes, for years all I've ever used to replace headsets is a block of wood and a rubber mallet, I just place the top set on the headtube with a block of wood on top of it, make sure its level and give it a good tap with the rubber mallet, 9 times out of 10 it sets right in place, then I place a block of wood on top of it and drive it in with the rubber mallet, takes me all of 2 minutes to do top and bottom, never a problem. :)

+1. If the cups/headtube fit is OK to start with, there shouldn't be any problems, ever. And if it's wrong, no head press will cure that.

I would expect the wooden block and hammer method to work fine on most steel bikes myself. I have a reamer/headset press, so that's what I use.

It appears that the lugs are now offset by a large portion of 1/4", so the faces of the lugs cannot possibly be square.

Wasn't me.

-Kurt

Sorry. I meant you could doit with your mighty strength, not that you would do it. That, of course is inconcievable. Now if you fed Bluto the spinach...

i do the same. I'll share the flames with ya.


...and I remove cups with a big ass flat head screwdriver and a hammer. carefully.

Nothing against the wood block method! I have a homemade press made by a machinist co-worker. It consists of a 7/8 inch fine threaded rod and large nuts, with solid brass drive cups machined to carefully match the rod and a Campy Record headset. The price was half a dozen Mexican lunches. When he brought it over so we could try it, it moved in a set of Campy cups like a knife through butter. He made a big point of not continuing to crank it down if the resistance to turning increases. After he looked at a head tube, he said this tool is easily capable of destroying it. I use it, but with caution, just like any other large hand tool.

Extra pressure will not force a set of cups into alignment if the head tube needs facing, instead.

I would expect the wooden block and hammer method to work fine on most steel bikes myself. I have a reamer/headset press, so that's what I use.

It appears that the lugs are now offset by a large portion of 1/4", so the faces of the lugs cannot possibly be square.

okay. So say its 1/4 inch out at the headtube. Maybe 1 inch or more at the dropouts.


I'll bet in 20 cranks you'd automatically compensate for the weirdness and as long as you didn't do any alpine descents it would be perfectly rideable.


I'm gonna squash a vintage Paramount just to demonstrate the technique.

I like it.

Sorry. I meant you could doit with your mighty strength, not that you would do it. That, of course is inconcievable. Now if you fed Bluto the spinach...

Show me a cheap Huffy, and I'll show you the inconceivable.

-Kurt

Does this Cilo frame have Vitus 980 Tubing?
The first 84 Peugeot PSV I bought developed a small concentric bulge about half an inch below the top head race after about 4 months of riding. I never overtigntened the top race and nut to cause the problem and was 100% sure it was not there when I took the bike off the dealer's floor because I examined the bike with the shop owner very closely when I bought it.
The dealer exchanged it for a different PSV when the agreed to take it back after a Peugeot rep examined the bike and declared the the head tube was indeed defective (too soft/ductile).
I'm curious to find out if this bike had the same tubing and same head tube defect because it seemed like the head tube buckled too easily on him.
I know Cilo uses Vitus 979 aluminum frames so I wouldn't be surprised if they have other Vitus frames in their lineup.

Chombi
84 Peugeot PSV

Rubber mallet here.:),,,,BD

Over at serotta forums, David Kirk described how he once used a car jack, car, and 2 blocks of wood for an emergency headset press!

I'm surprised that so many folks think that it may not be a problem.
I would have thought that once something starts to accordion you both have stress ridges and unsupported side forces that would make the problem grow.

Sorta' like those little double chins that grow on tubes leading to a bent head on a bent frame.

I think that frame is ruined unless he changes the headtube, which I doubt it's worth it.

i do the same. I'll share the flames with ya.


...and I remove cups with a big ass flat head screwdriver and a hammer. carefully.

I use a 15 inch piece of 1/2 inch pipe. :thumb:

I'm surprised that so many folks think that it may not be a problem.
I would have thought that once something starts to accordion you both have stress ridges and unsupported side forces that would make the problem grow.

Sorta' like those little double chins that grow on tubes leading to a bent head on a bent frame.

You may well be right; the only thing I'm sure of is that I don't know for sure. My speculation is that if OP puts the bike together and the headset feels okay, then the bike is safe to ride around the block. If he can ride around the block without problems, then it will be safe to ride it ten miles; and so on.

If the crushed head tube is a problem, I agree it will grow, but I believe it will grow only slowly. The tube will continue to crush, and it will probably not crush evenly, so steering will start to get funny; and if this happens, then you definitely have a problem. I would check the headset periodically; if it is chronically loose, I'd start looking for a new frame. But if steering remains even and smooth after a couple hundred miles of riding, and the headset holds its adjustment, then it's fine to keep on riding. I just wouldn't take off and ride a double century on it, certainly not at first.

The frame is definitely damaged, I'm not contesting that. In a crash, I don't believe it will hold up as well as an undamaged frame. But I don't believe this damage is likely to cause a crash, nor lead to any kind of catastrophic failure. Does anyone think it otherwise? If so, how?

You may well be right; the only thing I'm sure of is that I don't know for sure. My speculation is that if OP puts the bike together and the headset feels okay, then the bike is safe to ride around the block. If he can ride around the block without problems, then it will be safe to ride it ten miles; and so on.

If the crushed head tube is a problem, I agree it will grow, but I believe it will grow only slowly. The tube will continue to crush, and it will probably not crush evenly, so steering will start to get funny; and if this happens, then you definitely have a problem. I would check the headset periodically; if it is chronically loose, I'd start looking for a new frame. But if steering remains even and smooth after a couple hundred miles of riding, and the headset holds its adjustment, then it's fine to keep on riding. I just wouldn't take off and ride a double century on it, certainly not at first.

Did you notice the crack in the headtube at the rear between the top and down tubes? I wouldn't even consider riding it around the block.

Check out the head tube thickness for Ishiwata 015, on this page, third pdf. down: http://www.equusbicycle.com/bike/ishiwata/catalog2/index.html.

Columbus and Reynolds probably had something comparable.

If it was built with that tubing, and reamed further at some point, I could see how this would happen.

i don't see the crack.

I personally don't think there's a problem with the structure of the metal in terms of (we'll pretend the tube is sitting vertically for now) horizontal forces. if nothing else, it might help it. (corrugation is metal's friend) in the vertical direction however, it could be a problem. once a fold exists, more folds are going to follow if force is applied. avoid potholes.

I've been wrong before. and i got a B in steel structures. so, i could be wrong now.

okay. So say its 1/4 inch out at the headtube. Maybe 1 inch or more at the dropouts.


I'll bet in 20 cranks you'd automatically compensate for the weirdness and as long as you didn't do any alpine descents it would be perfectly rideable.


I'm gonna squash a vintage Paramount just to demonstrate the technique.

Aw, come on. At least make it a Masi, the Paramount is too pedestrian...

I don't think that tubing really anneals, so the heat shouldn't have had that effect, no matter how hot the powder coater got it. In general, the ductility of the metal would depend on the cool down period. If the powder coater just left the frame in the oven to cool, that would lead to annealing -- if it was possible.

I was speculating in the framebuilder's forum that there was built in stress that would tend to push the head tube and lead to buckling. Maybe the head tube reamer took out too much material. Either way, this is a new one.

I was going to say "that'll buff right out," but I decided the owner had been punished enough.

Wow! Never thought of doing it that way. If I send my frame to you, could you buff my bent seat stay straight again???

:lol::lol:

You may well be right; the only thing I'm sure of is that I don't know for sure. My speculation is that if OP puts the bike together and the headset feels okay, then the bike is safe to ride around the block. If he can ride around the block without problems, then it will be safe to ride it ten miles; and so on.

If the crushed head tube is a problem, I agree it will grow, but I believe it will grow only slowly. The tube will continue to crush, and it will probably not crush evenly, so steering will start to get funny; and if this happens, then you definitely have a problem. I would check the headset periodically; if it is chronically loose, I'd start looking for a new frame. But if steering remains even and smooth after a couple hundred miles of riding, and the headset holds its adjustment, then it's fine to keep on riding. I just wouldn't take off and ride a double century on it, certainly not at first.

The frame is definitely damaged, I'm not contesting that. In a crash, I don't believe it will hold up as well as an undamaged frame. But I don't believe this damage is likely to cause a crash, nor lead to any kind of catastrophic failure. Does anyone think it otherwise? If so, how?

Probably the headset won't "feel okay". Major misalignment there.

I agree with the pastor. It is just the powercoat bubbling around?

Did you notice the crack in the headtube at the rear between the top and down tubes? I wouldn't even consider riding it around the block.

No, I didn't. Now that you mention it, and I look for it ... uh, no, I still don't.

Let's stipulate your crack, for safety's sake. How will this frame fail? Under what circumstances will what happen, and how? Will it happen suddenly, or gradually?


Probably the headset won't "feel okay". Major misalignment there.

You are speculating. Nonetheless, you may well be right. My question, rephrased: what's the danger in finding out?

No danger. Probably the headset can't be properly adjusted, will have play turning to one side and bind to the other. But you'll only lose some time assembling & disassembling it. No safety issues.