Clydesdales/Athenas (200+ lb / 91+ kg) - Difference in rims?

I say it all the time. This Clydesdale forum is full of just fat ponys commenting about Clyde issues.

No real Clyde can get by on 25s. !25lb cyclists race on23s and 25s.

Anyone 6'5" and over, and anyone 300lbs and over will just blow through tubes constantly on 23s or 25s. Real Clydes need tires that will hold up to Clyde weight, and with sufficient width to minimize rim and spoke failure. Context is key.

Most couples on a racing tandem weigh less than Clyde. A 175lb man and his 125lb stoker are barely a Clyde.

On our Tandem we run Continental 38s the old TopTouring tires. Bombproof and safe. You don't want a sidewall blowout with 400-600lbs of people on two tires. On my single I run 28s, the new Continental TopContact (closest thing to TopTouring anymore).

The Velocity Chukker is like a Deep V on steroids. A Deep V is only 19mm wide. The Chukker is 24mm wide and has a deeper (and stronger) section than the Deep V. It ain't particularly light, but neither is a Clyde. Fat Ponys wouldn't like this rim, Clydes would love it with Conti TopContact 28s.

Although I don't meet your definition of Clyde (6'5", 300 lb is beyond Clydesdale:rolleyes: More like a Shire horse (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shire_horse)), I have toured on tires that are 28 mm wide. With a touring load, I get to the weight (but not the height). I never had a problem with tires wearing out prematurely nor with tube issues. I've even ridden on 19 mm tires without issues. They look like razor blades but they weren't any more vunerable to flats than any other tire I've ever used. Of course, as with any narrow tire, the tires have to be kept inflated.

I do, however agree with you on other issues about wheel building. You have to be smart about selection of parts, specifically the spokes. Everyone takes the attitude that once you picked the hub and the rim, your work is done. Even Mr IGH admitted that building with certain spokes gave the company he was working for fits. Spokes should be the first consideration. Hubs and rims are secondary...still important, but secondary.

He said he wouldn't build with 1.8mm spokes. Neither would I. I won't build a rear wheel with 2.0mm spokes. The spoke hole in the hub is 2.3mm (plus a little). This is so that the threads which are rolled on to the spoke can pass through the hole and be attached to the nipples at the hub. A 2.0mm spoke has 0.3mm (plus a little) room to move around on each tensioning/detensioning cycle. This can lead to fatique at the spoke head or unthreading of the spoke nipple. That's part of the reason that I said what I did about not being able to build a wheel that absolutely would never break a spoke. I'm not saying that you can't build a wheel that won't break spokes but to say that it will "never break spokes" is incorrect. "Never" is a very long time. The possibility for spoke breakage always exists. Simply the variability of the metal from which the spokes are made would insure that, another part of why I don't think you can build a wheel that will never break spokes.

There are ways to reduce the possibility of broken spokes. DT's Alpine III spokes and Wheelsmith's version go a long way to reducing the movement of the spoke head in the hub. They have a 2.3mm (minus a little) head and elbow. The spoke can't move around as much in the hole and there's more metal to resist fatique. Off center rims (OCR) reduce the dish on the drive side significantly, making a stronger wheel. Proper tension and proper wheel building is also important. Prestressing the spokes when they are in a low tension state goes a long way to reducing tension changes during the wheel's early life...another problem that leads to broken spokes. Simple wheel maintainence (truing, checking tension, etc) helps too.

All of this goes a long way towards building a strong wheel that will probably last a long time and not have broken spokes. However the possibility of breaking a spoke is never zero...short of a monospoke like this

http://a763.g.akamai.net/7/763/1644/3/app.infopia.com/img/image/fp/VPID/5107443/size/250

But that would be one heavy bike wheel:rolleyes:

I think the crime here mtnbke is that so many "clydes" have been cowed into thinking that their only solution is balloon tires and overbuilt tandem wheels for their singles.


Over 60,000 miles on 23 roadie tires, I guess I've just been lucky so far? I better switch to 38's before my tires blow a sidewall and I fall down and go boom!:p

Over 400 lbs on our tandem for more than 10 years on 25's (Deep V's). We don't race but have done a few centuries and hit speeds up to 56 mph. Again, I've been on a ten year lucky streak?:D




because a mechanic is either too lazy or unskilled enough to build a quality wheels set.

Exactly the reason I started building my own. First wheel 20,000 miles an still true! Take a wheel to the shop, ask them to true it. They true it, kick you in the but and push you out the door. Did the guy make sure not to bind any spokes? How would you know? So many posters complain that their wheels make noise, that's a binding spoke.

I mark my spokes while building or truing with a marker so that I am able to verify that the spokes don't bind. I've never seen a shop mechanic do that. Too lazy!:thumb:

When I read the wheel problems posted here in the clyde forum, my response is usually, "your wheel guy sucks or is too lazy to do it right, find another shop". The poster thinks I'm too harsh or just an a-hole, but it's true, your wheel guy is lazy and he sucks!:D

Wheelbuilding isn't an art, it's a matter of taking the time and steps to do it right!:thumb:

Although I don't meet your definition of Clyde (6'5", 300 lb is beyond Clydesdale:rolleyes: More like a Shire horse (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shire_horse)), I have toured on tires that are 28 mm wide. With a touring load, I get to the weight (but not the height). I never had a problem with tires wearing out prematurely nor with tube issues. I've even ridden on 19 mm tires without issues. They look like razor blades but they weren't any more vunerable to flats than any other tire I've ever used. Of course, as with any narrow tire, the tires have to be kept inflated.

I do, however agree with you on other issues about wheel building. You have to be smart about selection of parts, specifically the spokes. Everyone takes the attitude that once you picked the hub and the rim, your work is done. Even Mr IGH admitted that building with certain spokes gave the company he was working for fits. Spokes should be the first consideration. Hubs and rims are secondary...still important, but secondary.

He said he wouldn't build with 1.8mm spokes. Neither would I. I won't build a rear wheel with 2.0mm spokes. The spoke hole in the hub is 2.3mm (plus a little). This is so that the threads which are rolled on to the spoke can pass through the hole and be attached to the nipples at the hub. A 2.0mm spoke has 0.3mm (plus a little) room to move around on each tensioning/detensioning cycle. This can lead to fatique at the spoke head or unthreading of the spoke nipple. That's part of the reason that I said what I did about not being able to build a wheel that absolutely would never break a spoke. I'm not saying that you can't build a wheel that won't break spokes but to say that it will "never break spokes" is incorrect. "Never" is a very long time. The possibility for spoke breakage always exists. Simply the variability of the metal from which the spokes are made would insure that, another part of why I don't think you can build a wheel that will never break spokes.

There are ways to reduce the possibility of broken spokes. DT's Alpine III spokes and Wheelsmith's version go a long way to reducing the movement of the spoke head in the hub. They have a 2.3mm (minus a little) head and elbow. The spoke can't move around as much in the hole and there's more metal to resist fatique. Off center rims (OCR) reduce the dish on the drive side significantly, making a stronger wheel. Proper tension and proper wheel building is also important. Prestressing the spokes when they are in a low tension state goes a long way to reducing tension changes during the wheel's early life...another problem that leads to broken spokes. Simple wheel maintainence (truing, checking tension, etc) helps too.

All of this goes a long way towards building a strong wheel that will probably last a long time and not have broken spokes. However the possibility of breaking a spoke is never zero...short of a monospoke like this

http://a763.g.akamai.net/7/763/1644/3/app.infopia.com/img/image/fp/VPID/5107443/size/250

But that would be one heavy bike wheel:rolleyes:

I don't want to get into a discussion of spoke washers (as most people won't even know what they are) but you are 100% correct about spokes. Most DT spokes are 'supposed' to be used with spoke washers (that DT conveniently sells). Wheelbuilders don't use them because they build up looking unsightly. They make for stronger wheels, longer lasting touring wheels, but ugly wheels...

Most people have never even seen a bike with spoke washers...

Over 60,000 miles on 23 roadie tires, I guess I've just been lucky so far? I better switch to 38's before my tires blow a sidewall and I fall down and go boom!:p

Over 400 lbs on our tandem for more than 10 years on 25's (Deep V's). We don't race but have done a few centuries and hit speeds up to 56 mph. Again, I've been on a ten year lucky streak?:D

Again, context is key.

If two cyclists are 400lbs on a tandem, they ain't Clydes...just fat ponys.

There mileage is going to vary greatly from that of a cyclist who rivals or exceeds their combined weight. The cyclist starting this thread, on his single, weighs more than your tandem team. I'm close...


Exactly the reason I started building my own. First wheel 20,000 miles an still true! Take a wheel to the shop, ask them to true it. They true it, kick you in the but and push you out the door. Did the guy make sure not to bind any spokes? How would you know? So many posters complain that their wheels make noise, that's a binding spoke.

I mark my spokes while building or truing with a marker so that I am able to verify that the spokes don't bind. I've never seen a shop mechanic do that. Too lazy!:thumb:

When I read the wheel problems posted here in the clyde forum, my response is usually, "your wheel guy sucks or is too lazy to do it right, find another shop". The poster thinks I'm too harsh or just an a-hole, but it's true, your wheel guy is lazy and he sucks!:D

Wheelbuilding isn't an art, it's a matter of taking the time and steps to do it right!:thumb:

Great advice!

In my opinion EVERY Clyde should invest in a Park TS-2 or TS-2.2 truing stand. They should read the 'required reading' for building wheels and build 'em themselves.

Not to take this thread a different direction, but most bike shop wrenches are hacks. You really don't want these guys touching your wheels.

A wheel needs to be round, true, and have uniform tension. Most bike shops, and I mean most, can accomplish one out of three. Even legendary and famous shops that build hundreds of custom wheels a month (for 135lb hipsters) will fail when they build wheels outisde the boundaries of what is typical use or the typical cyclist.

You really get what you pay for when wheel building. In my opinion Clydes should have their wheels built by Peter White, or themselves.

Anyone who thinks they have a great 'master' local wheelbuilder, PM me. I'll send you my contact information. He can send me a wheelset. I'll send back a taco'd mess in less than 500 miles. Probably in less than 100.

Anybody can be great when they are building for 140lb Category roadies.

The Clyde forums are filled with horror stories of 'custom' wheelsets from 'master' wheelbuilders that fail.

Build your own!

Besides building better, stronger, and lighter wheels than you can get elsewhere you can take advantage of all the cool hubs that the average cyclist throws on eBay after they taco their wheels. Remember that both road, track, BMX, and mountain bikes have 100mm front spacing.

There are some Sansin and Suzue hubs floating around that don't take a back seat to anything that's not vintage Mavic SSC or Phil Wood, they can be had in 40 and 48 drill, and are cheap and perfect for Clydes.

You won't believe how they spin like butter compared to even Dura-Ace or Ultegra cone and ball hubs. Night and day.

Any thoughts on the Mavic CXP22 or A319. The reason I ask is TC is on a budget and these are options that BWW can do for him for around $200. Just looking for some input on those who might have ran them.

I would never recommend the CXP22 for anyone ... ever. They came on my Giant TCR and have to be trued every 100 miles and flex so much the rub the brake on hill climbs and sprints. .. . . I only weigh 220.

I would never recommend the CXP22 for anyone ... ever. They came on my Giant TCR and have to be trued every 100 miles and flex so much the rub the brake on hill climbs and sprints. .. . . I only weigh 220.

That is your wheel builder not the wheel/rim...

I say it all the time. This Clydesdale forum is full of just fat ponys commenting about Clyde issues.

No real Clyde can get by on 25s. !25lb cyclists race on23s and 25s.

Anyone 6'5" and over, and anyone 300lbs and over will just blow through tubes constantly on 23s or 25s. Real Clydes need tires that will hold up to Clyde weight, and with sufficient width to minimize rim and spoke failure. Context is key.


Sorry bud, I run 23's on my tandem with 32 spoke wheels. I'm 6'3 and too close to 250 right now with my stoker we are close to 500lbs on my "racing" tandem (26lb Calfee). I also run 60-11 gearing on both my tandem and single bike when I race (Yeah I'm a masher). Yes I race, in both ultra distance races (RAAM 3 times) and shorter TT's. I have no problems with well built low spoke count wheels on 23/25mm tires. If you go the speeds I go or put out the wattage I do.... Peter White makes great wheels (I have several of his wheels and would recommend him in a second) but he will make anything you ask for with out questioning. He made my Clyde (300lbs) friend a set of Zipp 404's laced to a schmidt dyno hub.

I agree with Mr IGH, it's all about the wheel builder...

mtnbke, we know you say it all the time. It's the myth you love to keep alive: REAL Clydes aren't some teensy little 250 pounder on 25mm tires and 19mm i.d. rims. REAL Clydes need a Surly Large Marge 48h drilled and 12g spoked, with Endomorph tires or else it's all going to blow up in our faces and we face certain death.
Dude, at 260 pounds I was riding my DT RR1.1, 3-crossed with DT Champion 2.0 spokes, on 28mm tires without any problems... and I'd load 50 or more pounds of groceries on top of all that. Now at 225 pounds and starting to put some heavy-level hurt on my bike with extended standing hill sprints and really torquing on the wheelset, I'm looking at building up a go-fast bike with a 24h 2-cross wheelset with RR540 rims (replaces the RR1.2) and Aerolite bladed spokes.
Sure, I'm not going to trust myself on top of a 16 spoke radial/2-cross combo set of ultralight wheels meant for some 130 pound criterium whippet; but I agree with Homeyba that a well built set of 24h - 32h wheels with 25mm tires are plenty enough for someone in the 200 - 275 range. A coworker rides a pair of Kysrium Equipes and he's 270 pounds. One of my LBS guys rides Kysrium SL wheels at 230 pounds and he beats on those things like he hates them. They've never had a problem.

LOL believe it or not.....The original question was about machined vs. non machined......

LOL believe it or not.....The original question was about machined vs. non machined......

What shocker a BF thread devolves into I know better than you, someone call the Internet Police..

Sorry bud, I run 23's on my tandem with 32 spoke wheels. I'm 6'3 and too close to 250 right now with my stoker we are close to 500lbs on my "racing" tandem (26lb Calfee). I also run 60-11 gearing on both my tandem and single bike when I race (Yeah I'm a masher). Yes I race, in both ultra distance races (RAAM 3 times) and shorter TT's. I have no problems with well built low spoke count wheels on 23/25mm tires. If you go the speeds I go or put out the wattage I do.... Peter White makes great wheels (I have several of his wheels and would recommend him in a second) but he will make anything you ask for with out questioning. He made my Clyde (300lbs) friend a set of Zipp 404's laced to a schmidt dyno hub.

I agree with Mr IGH, it's all about the wheel builder...

I'm not trying to say the wheelbuilder doesn't matter. In fact I have often said that any Clyde needs to get a decent truing stand and learn to true their own wheels, and build their own to boot.

I recently had one of the most famous bicycle shops in all the land build up a rear tandem wheel for us, Yellow Jersey in Madison, WI. A Velocity Dyad, 48h, with double butted spokes (not my choice, I wanted 14g). The wheel failed us within five miles. I took it back and the first question I was asked was whether I had detensioned the wheel with a spoke wrench. I didn't even know what to say. The wheel was retensioned, retrued, and multiple and successive times this 48h Dyad wheel failed with just me on the bike (without the stoker). The insanity is that on a tandem with only the captain the weight distribution between the front and rear is much more even than on a regular single. Never once did that wheel last even five miles. Now Yellow Jersey builds up hundreds of wheels a month. Tons of Deep V wheelsets go out to all the hipsters in all the world. Andrew knows more about bikes, and building wheels than I'll ever know. However, he doesn't get the tandem wheel business, heavy loaded touring business that Peter White does. He just doesn't see those types of customers. Andrew even offered to rebuild the wheel with a new Velocity Chukker, but again with silly lightweight japanese double butted spokes. I tried to explain that what was strong enough for a kid on a fixie might not be strong enough for nearly 600lbs of rider weight on a tandem. I understand that double butted spokes make for a better wheel for most applications, but its relative. 14/15g or 14/16g for a skinny cyclist doesn't even begin to correspond to 14 or even 13/14g for a heavy load tandem. Its like using 15/17g spokes for a 225lb cyclist. It just isn't enough. I didn't even ever bother to go back and have 'em rebuild the wheel. I'm totally out the money for the wheel build. We can't afford to have a new one rebuilt. However, we really could have gotten hurt when the wheel failed.

I'll never get back on the tandem until I can afford to have Peter White build up our new wheel.

Don't for a second think that I don't think the wheelbuilder matters.

In these forums I've stated countless times that people should avoid the local 'master' wheelbuilder at all costs. Wheels (along with the frame) are the soul of the bike...

That being said I have serious doubts about how you have a wheelset with 32spokes that has held up to 500+ pounds of tandem rider weight for thousands of miles. Most tandems, for a 150-175lb captain and a 125lb stoker use 40 or 48 spoke wheels. You're almost double that on a significantly lower spoke count.

I'm 375 and I wouldn't go near a 32 spoke wheelset. I used to look for 36 drill wheels, now I'm going with 40 and 48h touring stuff as well just on my road bike. I've had too many destroyed wheels that built by 'master' wheelbuilders.

I'm extremely curious what rimes you're running on your 32 drill tandem wheels. I can't even imagine Mavic a719s (t520) holding up with that much weight and so few spokes.

mtnbke, we know you say it all the time. It's the myth you love to keep alive: REAL Clydes aren't some teensy little 250 pounder on 25mm tires and 19mm i.d. rims. REAL Clydes need a Surly Large Marge 48h drilled and 12g spoked, with Endomorph tires or else it's all going to blow up in our faces and we face certain death.
Dude, at 260 pounds I was riding my DT RR1.1, 3-crossed with DT Champion 2.0 spokes, on 28mm tires without any problems... and I'd load 50 or more pounds of groceries on top of all that. Now at 225 pounds and starting to put some heavy-level hurt on my bike with extended standing hill sprints and really torquing on the wheelset, I'm looking at building up a go-fast bike with a 24h 2-cross wheelset with RR540 rims (replaces the RR1.2) and Aerolite bladed spokes.
Sure, I'm not going to trust myself on top of a 16 spoke radial/2-cross combo set of ultralight wheels meant for some 130 pound criterium whippet; but I agree with Homeyba that a well built set of 24h - 32h wheels with 25mm tires are plenty enough for someone in the 200 - 275 range. A coworker rides a pair of Kysrium Equipes and he's 270 pounds. One of my LBS guys rides Kysrium SL wheels at 230 pounds and he beats on those things like he hates them. They've never had a problem.

You know I save you from the really annoying rants, right? I'd really like to spout off all the time about why Clydes have to make do with 622 and 630 sized rims, when what we really need is something proportional. I figure if the jump from a 26" wheel (559 BSD) to a 700c wheel (622 BSD) is 63mm, we need an equivalent plus size over the 700c for Clydesdale riders (and no being heavy does not a Clydesdale make. The Clydesale breed is not the same as a fat pony). I'm thinking 685 BSD or just a nice even 700 BSD (how confusing would that be 700c and 700 BSD?). I try to self censor somewhat.

However, I wouldn't recommend a Surley to any Clyde. No Clyde should have a steel bike. The frame flex and inefficiency is just unreal with the wattage Clyde's put out. Fat ponys, not so much.

As for machine built wheels, well its just sad. I actually was able to ride a set of Xero paired spoke wheels (very low spoke count) with only a loosened spoke after several hundred miles. Sadly, the local 'master' wheelbuilder's wheels have catastrophically failed me in less than five miles with more than twice the spokes and twice the rim. Regarding certain death, when this wheel failed we had, less than a minute earlier, been descending at over 55mph, I still get the willies thinking about what would have happened to me, my stoker, and our kid in the Chariot had the wheel not failed on the subsequent climb, but on the preceeding descent.

Some people will eke out a success story on wheels that really are wholly inappropriate for their weight, riding style, or application.

Sadly, almost any factory built wheelset will completley outperform any hand built wheel from a local 'master' wheelbuilder. The truth is that the market has gone to prefabricated wheels for a reason, and it has everything to do with the skill level of the wrench in the LBS.

That is your wheel builder not the wheel/rim...

Anybody have an opinion on the upper real world limit for a Mavic CXP-33? I'm trying to build up a 'tout Mavic' project and I really don't want to run Mavic a719 rims.

Sadly, the local 'master' wheelbuilder's wheels have catastrophically failed me in less than five miles with more than twice the spokes and twice the rim. Regarding certain death, when this wheel failed we had, less than a minute earlier, been descending at over 55mph, I still get the willies thinking about what would have happened to me, my stoker, and our kid in the Chariot had the wheel not failed on the subsequent climb, but on the preceeding descent.



So within the first 5 miles on wheels you just got you were cruising at 55 mph? Racers do not race on new gear, why do you go 55 mph on untested stuff?

I'll never get back on the tandem until I can afford to have Peter White build up our new wheel.

Don't for a second think that I don't think the wheelbuilder matters.

In these forums I've stated countless times that people should avoid the local 'master' wheelbuilder at all costs. Wheels (along with the frame) are the soul of the bike...

That being said I have serious doubts about how you have a wheelset with 32spokes that has held up to 500+ pounds of tandem rider weight for thousands of miles. Most tandems, for a 150-175lb captain and a 125lb stoker use 40 or 48 spoke wheels. You're almost double that on a significantly lower spoke count.

I'm 375 and I wouldn't go near a 32 spoke wheelset. I used to look for 36 drill wheels, now I'm going with 40 and 48h touring stuff as well just on my road bike. I've had too many destroyed wheels that built by 'master' wheelbuilders.

I'm extremely curious what rimes you're running on your 32 drill tandem wheels. I can't even imagine Mavic a719s (t520) holding up with that much weight and so few spokes.

It's a hand built Zipp 404 on a White Industries hub. The gearing is 56/11 on the top end. Here's a pic:
http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd35/Homey-B/CIMG1074.jpg
One RAAM and a Furnace Creek 508 and a bunch of miles in between on that particular wheel. In all kinds of conditions:
http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd35/Homey-B/DSC_60201.jpg
On all kinds of roads:http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd35/Homey-B/cima-dome-to-baker.jpg
I am racing my tandem, not just pleasure riding it!
http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd35/Homey-B/FurnaceCreek508-BarnieandMattheaded.jpg
I'd say, if your "master builder" can't build you a 32spoke wheel that will hold up he isn't a master builder. The Mavic OP's that I use for Randonnering are 32spoke and built by Peter white. They are an awesome wheel set as well. The wheel builder makes or breaks a good wheel, simple as that.

btw, I'm a clyde who puts 10,000 miles a year on his bikes. I won't tolerate wheels that don't last!

You know I save you from the really annoying rants, right? I'd really like to spout off all the time about why Clydes have to make do with 622 and 630 sized rims, when what we really need is something proportional. I figure if the jump from a 26" wheel (559 BSD) to a 700c wheel (622 BSD) is 63mm, we need an equivalent plus size over the 700c for Clydesdale riders (and no being heavy does not a Clydesdale make. The Clydesale breed is not the same as a fat pony). I'm thinking 685 BSD or just a nice even 700 BSD (how confusing would that be 700c and 700 BSD?). I try to self censor somewhat.

Longer spokes and larger BSDs make for a less sturdy wheel, unless you're also suggesting that Real Clydes® also have frames built to accomodate 145mm or even 160mm tandem hubs.


However, I wouldn't recommend a Surley to any Clyde. No Clyde should have a steel bike. The frame flex and inefficiency is just unreal with the wattage Clyde's put out. Fat ponys, not so much.
Off-topic, but I don't race so I'm not dealing with massive wattage outputs and concerning myself with power::weight ratios and efficiency loss to frame flex. Steel makes for a randonneuring bike which is as comfortable at 24 hours as it is at 4 hours in the saddle. I'm considering building a 'go fast' bike for century through 300k events, and that will be a stiff carbon frame; less comfortable than a cushy steel ride, but I'll be spending considerably less time on it. (Or so I hope!)

Now, to go highly off-topic and address the blue highlighted phrases...
Sure, this is a sub-forum dedicated to the larger riders. Sometimes we even poke a bit of fun at ourselves and our size relative to the stereotypical cyclists as found on the cover of Road or Velo News magazine. What you fail to grasp is that the moniker of Clydesdale or Athena encompasses the entire group, not just your personal and highly specific definition of Real Clydes®. I'm sure I'm not the only one who finds your new categorization (Fat Pony) to be downright insulting.

I'm sure I'm not the only one who finds your new categorization (Fat Pony) to be downright insulting.


I thought it was only me!:D

I thought it was only me!:D


Nope, not just you:D Even though I did not mind the quarter house label so much since it refereed to a somewhat bigger rider who is athletic. At least that is the was I chose to interpret it anyways. :p

So within the first 5 miles on wheels you just got you were cruising at 55 mph? Racers do not race on new gear, why do you go 55 mph on untested stuff?

It was the Quadrapedal Century charity ride for the Iowa County Humane Society in Dodgeville, WI. The course had many of the hills from the Dairyland Dare or the Horrible Hilly Hundred rides.

We had no idea as we'd never been riding in that part of Wisconsin before. We asked the organizers before registering if the course was appropriate for pulling an infant in a trailer. They said it was a family friendly event. Let's just say I saw climbs and descents that made what I see in Colorado look like flat terrain. The hills aren't big, but they are off category.

I had no reason to believe that the wheel wouldn't be safe. Yellow Jersey makes hundreds of custom wheels...

The truth be told if the wheel hadn't completely failed we would have made the choice to not continue. The hills were insane. In fact when the ride officials got word that we had a baby on the course they sent the SAG wagon to come and find us. I was shocked why no one thought to say anything when we registered or until after we started riding (but instead realized that the route was kid inappropriate after we pulled out). The ridiculous thing is I still have the email from the organizer saying its a family friendly ride.

10,000 feet of climbing in 100 miles is family friendly? That's 10,000 feet of climbing without any real elevation change. Going up means constantly coming back down...

If you think UCI Pro racers don't race on new kit, you're nuts. Almost every stage in a gran tour something on their bike (or even the whole bike) is brand new. They trust their mechanics to set things up properly. Sometimes things happen, equipment fails, but a UCI Pro doesn't have the luxury of telling the team sponsors they only want to ride on 'broken in' stuff. Many a UCI Pro team will have components they've never trained on thrust upon them at the Giro or the Tour because a sponsor just developed something and wants to get some publicity...

I wouldn't want to be on a decent coming off an Hors Category climb on some brand new HED or Zipp wheels that haven't seen market yet. However, that's what they get paid for.

Heck when Lemond used those clip on aero bars from Scott to win one of his Tours, how many miles (if any) do you think he had on 'em? Almost no one in the peleton had ever even seen bars like that before. You think Lemond was saying, nope I'll wait until its 'better tested'? C'mon, that one risk to use the Scott bars was the difference between him winning that decisive time trial, and the Tour, or not.

I'd say, if your "master builder" can't build you a 32spoke wheel that will hold up he isn't a master builder. The Mavic OP's that I use for Randonnering are 32spoke and built by Peter white. They are an awesome wheel set as well. The wheel builder makes or breaks a good wheel, simple as that.

btw, I'm a clyde who puts 10,000 miles a year on his bikes. I won't tolerate wheels that don't last!

If you'll read some of my comments, you'll see that I'm consistent in relating that people should avoid their local 'master' wheelbuilder at all costs. That they should get a truing stand and learn to build wheels themselves. Any Clyde is going to have problems with broken spokes, pulling spokes through rims, etc.

I've also consistently said that people should go to Peter White. However, comparing a local so called 'master' wheel builder to Peter White is like comparing Marcus Camby to Wilt Chamberlain. Camby could do some things (and so can a wrench in a bike shop), but there are some things you just can't ask him to do (nor should you EVER let a local bike shop build up a custom set of wheels).

Peter White build wheels are in a different category altogether. If you say you're 500 lbs, try riding on 32 drill rear wheels that don't come from White's shop. Better yet don't, you'd get hurt.

Again, I want to emphasize that the wheel builder doesn't make or break the wheelset. It should, but as a rule the average 'master' wheelbuilder doesn't have anything close to the wheelbuilding acumen that the shop conveys to he customer. In almost every case the cyclist would be better off buying machine built pre-built wheels than having a local 'master' wheel builder custom build a set. My position on this is that there just aren't good wheelbuilders out there in local bike shops. Sure they can build strong Deep-V wheels for a 120lb hipster, but anything beyond that is a waste of money, and components. I can not overstate how completely any Clyde should avoid ANY wheelbuilder, and at all costs.

You can't use Peter White built wheels in the conversation. Peter White built wheels are the singular exception, the highest quality, the standard against which everything else fails in comparison to.

Longer spokes and larger BSDs make for a less sturdy wheel, unless you're also suggesting that Real Clydes® also have frames built to accomodate 145mm or even 160mm tandem hubs.

Now, to go highly off-topic and address the blue highlighted phrases...
Sure, this is a sub-forum dedicated to the larger riders. Sometimes we even poke a bit of fun at ourselves and our size relative to the stereotypical cyclists as found on the cover of Road or Velo News magazine. What you fail to grasp is that the moniker of Clydesdale or Athena encompasses the entire group, not just your personal and highly specific definition of Real Clydes®. I'm sure I'm not the only one who finds your new categorization (Fat Pony) to be downright insulting.

I think context is key. You're riding around on presumably a custom Calfee Tetra Tetra, and hand built Peter White Tandem wheels that run probably over a grand...

When you start commenting in a thread that your 32 drill wheels hold up just fine, without disclosing what you're really riding, that's not just a little disingenuous. That being said, I'm beyond jealous :twitchy: at what you have in your stable (and I'd like to know what you do for a living, and if you're hiring).

I would think that someone who is 5'8" and 225lbs and up would realize that they are grossly obese, and that if they are in a cycling forum for Clydesdales that they are trying to impart positive change in their lives and take back control, or to learn how.

We're talking about a group of people that are adults, have made the conscious decision to stuff their freakin' faces with food, and aren't happy with the fact that they have ballooned themselves into something similar to the girl from Willy Wonka and the Chocolate factory that chews the three course meal gum. This comes to mind, because when I wear my blue cycling jersey and my blue lycra shorts everyone calls me the Blueberry.

If people are downright insulted that they've eaten their way into become grossly obese, then let 'em be insulted. As a society we've become just a little too sensitive I think. If you're gross and fat can you really be offended when people don't pretend you're not?

I'm all about change, but I think our society is just a little too tolerant, a little too sensitive.

My comments to Clydes, Athenas, and Fat Ponys is to get off your fat asses, get on the bike, and take control. Make a change. Commit to the change.

If we don't, its going to be Type II diabetes, having the cardiologist on speed dial, chronic issues with sleep apnea and issues with resulting memory loss and diminished mental acuity, higher risk of many cancers, chronic fatigue, depression, significantly higher food expenses, grief and pain to our loved ones when we pass, and just a whole slew of negative horrible things...

We can sit around and reinforce the beautiful person that resides in all our big fat gross fat cyclist bodies, or we take ownership of what we've done to our bodies, and realize that ultimately we are going to hurt the ones who love us the most in an incredibly selfish manner, that one day we just won't wake up, because we just wanted to eat.

Give me a brake. An Arai drag brake.

What this community (the Clydes/ponies/Athenas) is not a chilling effect on what the truth is, but a wake up call to change our lives before its too late.

If its downright insulting, be insulted. What we do to our bodies through our eating habits and lack of a healthy lifestyle is downright disgusting.

Nothing is more silly than a fat person who takes issue with people noticing that they are fat.

Now back to the thread. How fat can a fattie be and expect a Mavic CXP-33 36h rim to hold up? Anybody running these?

I think context is key. You're riding around on presumably a custom Calfee Tetra Tetra, and hand built Peter White Tandem wheels that run probably over a grand...

I think you've got me and Homeyba mixed up. I'm not the tandem guy. My reference to 145mm or 160mm hubs was only in regards to the suggestion that Sasquatch sized riders need a wheel larger than a standard 700c. Structurally you'll end up with a much weaker wheel by increasing the diameter if you don't proportionally increase the width of the hub shell. For instance: A custom 29er built for someone 6'10", using an extra-wide rear triangle and a 145mm 40h or 48h hub.


When you start commenting in a thread that your 32 drill wheels hold up just fine, without disclosing what you're really riding, that's not just a little disingenuous. That being said, I'm beyond jealous :twitchy: at what you have in your stable (and I'd like to know what you do for a living, and if you're hiring).

My primary ride is a 2008 Surly Cross Check on a pair of wheels I built myself. SON28 laced 3x with DT Champion 2.0 spokes to a 32h DT RR1.1 rim. In back is a 135mm Deore hub laced identically to a matching rim. They're wrapped in 28mm Conti Gatorskins @ 112psi. This is my usual 30mi r/t commuter and my weekend LD/brevet bike.
My fun bike is a 1988 Trek 400 frame which I rescued from a dumpster. I threw a bunch of parts from a 1991 PDG Series-5 (105sc) on it and rebuilt the rear wheel with an IRO high-flange fix/fix hub laced 3x with DT Champion 2.0 spokes to a '91 Wolber T410 Alpine rim. Wheels are wrapped in 28mm Vittoria Randonneur-Cross tires.

If you'll read some of my comments, you'll see that I'm consistent in relating that people should avoid their local 'master' wheelbuilder at all costs. That they should get a truing stand and learn to build wheels themselves. Any Clyde is going to have problems with broken spokes, pulling spokes through rims, etc.

I've also consistently said that people should go to Peter White. However, comparing a local so called 'master' wheel builder to Peter White is like comparing Marcus Camby to Wilt Chamberlain. Camby could do some things (and so can a wrench in a bike shop), but there are some things you just can't ask him to do (nor should you EVER let a local bike shop build up a custom set of wheels)...

First off, I have one set of Mavic OP ceramic wheels built by Peter White. I have one set of Zipp 404's built by the factory, one set of Zipp 404's hand build by a "local master wheel builder" (in the pic above), one set of Topolino AX3.0 wheels built by the factory, one set of Dura Ace 7700's (16 spokes!)rebuilt by "local master wheel builder" (that I've had since 2001?), and one set of older HED3 wheels (no spokes). Notice, there is only one set of Peter White wheels there... Peter White is not a god. He is a very good wheel builder because he knows what he is doing and takes his time to do a good job. It's not rocket science or black magic! There are thousands of Peter White's out there. Guys who really know how to build a good wheel. My LBS is one of them and I can name a dozen others off the top of my head. Heck, even Beanz can build a good wheel! :p I've been 72mph on wheels built by my "local master wheel builder." I trust his wheels equally as well as a Peter White wheel. There are also a lot of LBS mechanics who aren't very good at building wheels. If you have a problem with a wheel builder then move on and find another. Just because you had a bad experience with a local shop doesn't mean you through them all under the bus. We may agree to disagree here but I think you are throwing the baby out with the bathwater...


PS, yes that's a custom made Calfee. Specially designed for the weight/power of me and my stoker.

My comments to Clydes, Athenas, and Fat Ponys is to get off your fat asses, get on the bike, and take control. Make a change. Commit to the change.

Hmmm, I'm thinking that at 230, I'm the Clyde and at 375, you're classification (whatever it may be)should include the word "fat":roflmao2:

First off, I have one set of Mavic OP ceramic wheels built by Peter White. I have one set of Zipp 404's built by the factory, one set of Zipp 404's hand build by a "local master wheel builder" (in the pic above), one set of Topolino AX3.0 wheels built by the factory, one set of Dura Ace 7700's (16 spokes!)rebuilt by "local master wheel builder" (that I've had since 2001?), and one set of older HED3 wheels (no spokes). Notice, there is only one set of Peter White wheels there... Peter White is not a god. He is a very good wheel builder because he knows what he is doing and takes his time to do a good job. It's not rocket science or black magic! There are thousands of Peter White's out there. Guys who really know how to build a good wheel. My LBS is one of them and I can name a dozen others off the top of my head. Heck, even Beanz can build a good wheel! :p I've been 72mph on wheels built by my "local master wheel builder." I trust his wheels equally as well as a Peter White wheel. There are also a lot of LBS mechanics who aren't very good at building wheels. If you have a problem with a wheel builder then move on and find another. Just because you had a bad experience with a local shop doesn't mean you through them all under the bus. We may agree to disagree here but I think you are throwing the baby out with the bathwater...


PS, yes that's a custom made Calfee. Specially designed for the weight/power of me and my stoker.

One bad experience? I've never had a good experience with a LBS built wheel, ever.

Some pretty notable shops too.

Lets just talk tandem wheels. Strong rims, extra spokes, it should be easier to build a serviceable tandem rim considering strength, not weight is the goal.

My two experiences with tandem wheels were a nightmare:

Belmont Wheelworks in Belmont, MA. The didn't properly tension the 48 spoke tandem wheel we got from them. As such the wheel was just a complete disaster. When I brought the wheel back to them they claimed they couldn't properly tension the wheel because of dish. This was on an 8 speed wheel on a 140mm tandem hub, not a 130mm road wheel or a 135mm mountain one.

Yellow Jersey in Madison, WI. This one almost got us killed. They have a fetish for using 14/17 or 14/16 stainless steel Keirin spokes from Japan. That just doesn't work with nearly 600lbs of rider weight and a drag brake. I went rounds with Andrew Muzi about the need to 14g straight guage spokes. From what I could tell from talking to them at length, they use the same spokes for everything, whether its a set of Deep V wheels, a touring bike wheelset, or for our tandem. Andrew blamed the Velocity Dyad for the failure of the wheel. The Dyad is a pretty bombproof rim. I think Keirin spokes are appropriate for...kerin racing bikes. Beyond that there is a reason that spokes come in different guages. The additional 12 spokes in 48 drill tandem wheel can't begin to compensate for the additional weight. Stronger spokes are absolutely necessary. That Yellow Jersey wheel failed within five miles. I took the wheel back three seperate times. The first time I got the comment about whether I had detensioned the wheel with a spoke wrench. Every time they trued up the wheel, brought it back to tension. Every time the wheel failed within a couple of miles. The wheel wouldn't even support me, sans stoker without failing.

Those are two of the premier bike shops in the country. There web of mechanics that came out of those two shops is unreal. There are literally thousands of bike wrenches that learned under Yellow Jersey or Wheelworks, or learned under someone who had worked there.

I was shocked that not only could neither build a serviceable tandem wheel, but rather that neither shop even seemed to have a grasp of how different wheels need to be built for different applications, riding style, etc.

I've just had too many negative experiences with local bike shops. I say go where someone has developed a reputation for building tandem wheels, touring wheels, exceptional wheels. I've been in cycling for a long time. I've never ever heard of any shop or wheelbuilder that has such a reputation other than Peter White. There just isn't such a shop out there. I've been on a wide variety of tandem and cycling forums. There just isn't a wheel builder out there that has garnered the respect and attention of the the community other than White.

Why is that? Why the explosion of the prefabricated wheel market? Why are machine built prefabricated wheels with low spoke counts showing to be so much stronger than hand built custom wheelsets by 'master' wheelbuilders with higher spoke counts? Its an emperor's clothes issue, the reality is that the LBS, in my book, does more to harm cycling than support it (considering how many people are sold bikes with completely compromised fit resulting in sore wrists, neck, back etc.). You'd be astounded to learn that the average bike shop doesn't have a single wrench that ever received formal training. Working on bikes isn't rocket science, but its laughable the trend to charge $80 and hour for shop time by people that don't know what they are doing half the time.

Hmmm, I'm thinking that at 230, I'm the Clyde and at 375, you're classification (whatever it may be)should include the word "fat":roflmao2:

I'm no longer a beanpole, but lets just say you probably have no concept of the difference between small people and big people. One of my legs probably weighs more than a UCI climbing specialist. Things are different for people close to two meters. With six percent body fat I wouldn't be under 230.

I'm about 370 now. That sounds like a lot, but proportionally is it? I've about a hundred and forty pounds overweight.

Someone who is 5'10" and should weigh 150lbs would be proportionally have the same obesity as I do if they weighed 240lbs. Something to think about.

Weight is not pound for pound the same on someone larger or smaller. A 6'0" man who should weigh 175lbs would increase their body mass by 1% if they gained 1.75lbs. However a 1% weight gain for myself, were I fit and healthy, would be almost 40% more.

It ain't apples to apples.

That being said, I'm a fatty.

I can give you several shops in the Chicago area that will build you a 36H wheel that won't break spokes even with your 400lbs. In Chicago, a couple big Schwinn shops are responsible for developing many of the smaller shop owners (George Garner was one). The Schwinn wheel building technique is typically done in Chicago; correct spoke loading, load all spokes before lacing, use a Yankee to assure even tension, stress the wheel while tensioning to relieve radial spoke stress and rim stress. For Clydes we always used Schwinn approved Union spokes, 2mm straight gauge (14 gauge) and Super Champ mod 58s, nowdays I'd use 2.0mm DTs and Mavic 319s. I remember the Yellow Jersey guys when I raced USCF in the 70's, they always had the good weed....

One bad experience? I've never had a good experience with a LBS built wheel, ever.

Some pretty notable shops too.

Lets just talk tandem wheels. Strong rims, extra spokes, it should be easier to build a serviceable tandem rim considering strength, not weight is the goal.

My two experiences with tandem wheels were a nightmare:

Belmont Wheelworks in Belmont, MA.

In checking a few reviews of this shop, one posted comment says the fitter was trying to push the commenter towards buying a bike he didn't want. Of 16 reviewers, they got a 3 of 5 (dead average) grade for every single category available. All the industry insider and Best of Boston reviews naming the shop the tops in the area don't mean squat if their customer base rates them as average.



Yellow Jersey in Madison, WI. This one almost got us killed. They have a fetish for using 14/17 or 14/16 stainless steel Keirin spokes from Japan. That just doesn't work with nearly 600lbs of rider weight and a drag brake. I went rounds with Andrew Muzi about the need to 14g straight guage spokes. From what I could tell from talking to them at length, they use the same spokes for everything, whether its a set of Deep V wheels, a touring bike wheelset, or for our tandem. Andrew blamed the Velocity Dyad for the failure of the wheel.

So you're saying that even though you specifically asked for 14g spokes, he built it with 14/16 db spokes? If that's the case, why did you even sign the P.O.? I can understand a wheelbuilder suggesting something different than what the client asks for if they believe it may be a better workable combo, or even flat-out telling someone a specific combination of items will not work (in the case of an unknowledgeable client who has chosen compenents willy-nilly based on reviews.) But if a builder is given a set of instructions, (i.e. "Use DT Champion 2.0 spokes"), there had better be DT Champion 2.0s on that wheel when the customer picks it up. Not Wheelsmith 14g. Not DT Competition 2.0/1.8s. If the specified components have not been used, the customer has every right to DENY RECEIPT of the item and demand one of two things: 1) Build it right, or 2) Give me back my deposit. Personally, I think getting your money back and going to another shop is a better option, since the first place already proved their inattention to detail.
So, after all that, my question is simply "Why did you even accept it if your build specifications were not met?"

You know mtnbke I don't even know where to start? So I won't. You are so far out in left field it isn't even funny. There is no point. I do think that maybe part of the problem is that you are trying to penny pinch so much that you are buying parts and equipment that you shouldn't and it leads to failure which you then blame on the LBS. You commented about the expense of my equipment. I don't buy bikes and parts because they are expensive, I buy quality parts from quality bike shops just so I don't have failures and I don't. Maybe you just need to (fat) pony-up. Pun intended. :)

LOL believe it or not.....The original question was about machined vs. non machined......

So what did you end up doing with your wheels TC?

lol I ordered a set from BWW