Bicycle Mechanics - Bike Quality Myth

I am working on a couple of (actually 3, now) salvaged/purchased bikes and would like to tell about what I found.
Bike #1 was a GT Windstream comfort bike. I assume it was a bike store bike.
Bike #2 was a Religh M20 ladies MTB. I assume it was a bike store bike.
Bike #3 was a Magna Glacier Point MTB. I assume it was a dept store bike.

Both the #1 and #2 had Shimano crankset with integrated 3 speed chain rings. By integrated I mean they were a single unit of spot welded chain rings, connected to the center of the right hand crank arm in a somewhat rivet rike fashion (multi toothed). The disadvantage of this system is that it does not have the 5 armed spider that one finds on brand name crank sets that affords interchangeability of chain rings. Also, in both cases (#1 and #2) the bikes did not appear to be used much, but the chainrings were missing several teeth. The material of the rings is apparently just plain stamped mild steel.

Now, bike #3 had a one piece American style crank arm and a 2 chain ring unit which is riveted together. Also, the one piece crank connects the chain ring unit in the usual place which is at one pint away from the center. I think this provides more leverage than the center driven mechanism in #1 and #2. The chain rings are also made of better material and are in much better shape, quite reusable. Other parts on this bike were of much inferior quality, e.g. the shifters were plastic and caliper brakes were stamped steel. But the bike probably cost 3 times less than #1 or #2.

So, my observation is that one needs be aware of the fact that LBS bikes also have low quality components, especially the crank set with non replaceable chain rings. When one ventures to buy a low end bike at a bike shop, one needs to make sure that the chain rings are attached to the crank arm by a spider and a set of bolts to insure that one gets good quality chain rings.

I also looked a magnified picture of a Trek 7.2FX bike, as it was advt on CL here, and found the same offending crank set on a bike that would cost $350+ in a LBS. I think Shimano should be asahmed of producing this crap. I would prefer a no name one piece crank to their so called SIS crank set, with a plastic chain guard ring hiding the poor quality chain rings.

Also, in both cases (#1 and #2) the bikes did not appear to be used much, but the chainrings were missing several teeth.

This is a common mistake when looking at chainrings that have the teeth formed in a manner that facilitates shifting. The chopped down teeth are designed that way to allow the chain to quickly and easily jump on and off the chainring during shifting.


The material of the rings is apparently just plain stamped mild steel.

As opposed to what better material? Cheaper bikes come with riveted cranksets with steel rings because they are much cheaper to manufacturer and steel rings will typically outlast most other components on the bike. The aluminum chainrings that come on higher end bikes might be lighter, but they need to replaceable based on the fact that they will wear out much quicker than an equivalent steel chainring.


Also, the one piece crank connects the chain ring unit in the usual place which is at one pint away from the center. I think this provides more leverage than the center driven mechanism in #1 and #2.

I've never heard of anyone breaking their riveted chainring crank at the point where the chainring cluster attaches to the crankarm. While your gut may think this design is inferior, it's proven to be adequate on many, many bikes.

quality vs. ease of production
profit margin vs. price point

all those crap cranks, you're thinking of it wrong, they don't need replaceable rings. You replace the whole crank set when it wears out.

This is a common mistake when looking at chain rings that have the teeth formed in a manner that facilitates shifting. The chopped down teeth are designed that way to allow the chain to quickly and easily jump on and off the chain ring during shifting.

I beg to differ about this. I was referring to the damaged teeth e.g.
http://dc147.4shared.com/img/132156060/aa030616/IMG_0004.JPG (http://www.4shared.com/file/132156060/aa030616/IMG_0004.html)
You can see the badly worn teeth and split chain ring. I don't have a pic of the other ring, but it actually has missing teeth. I don't believe those are for easier shifting.



As opposed to what better material? Cheaper bikes come with riveted cranksets with steel rings because they are much cheaper to manufacturer and steel rings will typically outlast most other components on the bike. The aluminum chainrings that come on higher end bikes might be lighter, but they need to replaceable based on the fact that they will wear out much quicker than an equivalent steel chainring.


Exactly, and I was pointing out that the LBS bikes, too have integrated steel rings, just like (or worse than) the DS (Dept Store) bikes, instead of the expected better quality interchangeable rings.

So in other words you took 3 crap bikes and decided to complain about their components. Good job. Lets also correct some mistakes in my next post.

that would cost $350+ in a LBS. I think Shimano should be asahmed of producing this crap. I would prefer a no name one piece crank to their so called SIS crank set, with a plastic chain guard ring hiding the poor quality chain rings.

You make that sound like it's a lot of money. I paid more than that for my crankset and chainring alone, and you're talking about an entire bike.




So, my observation is that one needs be aware of the fact that LBS bikes also have low quality components, especially the crank set with non replaceable chain rings. When one ventures to buy a low end bike at a bike shop, one needs to make sure that the chain rings are attached to the crank arm by a spider and a set of bolts to insure that one gets good quality chain rings.

I also looked a magnified picture of a Trek 7.2FX bike, as it was advt on CL here, and found the same offending crank set on a bike

That crankset is perfect for the target demographic. No chainring bolts to fall out and they're steel so they last much longer than aluminum chainrings. The people who ride those types of bikes generally don't give a **** about replaceable chainrings. Please stop posting ignorance.

I beg to differ about this. I was referring to the damaged teeth e.g.

You can see the badly worn teeth and split chain ring. I don't have a pic of the other ring, but it actually has missing teeth. I don't believe those are for easier shifting.



Nonetheless, that's exactly what they are for. Yes, they look broken, but they're meant to be that way.

I guess it is a myth in some respects, as you frequently hear the advice to get a bike store bike. If someone asks me what bike to get, I say spend at least $500 if buying new, preferably more. But, that GT is entry level with a MSRP of $275. Magna likely had MSRP of $180. Not quite 3x cheaper. I'd wager that the GT was just as likely to have been purchased at a sporting goods store as a LBS.

Replacing the GTs crankset would run you about $30. Replacing chainrings on a nicer crankset would run you $30. What's your complaint?

The Magna crankset isn't any better than the GT's, more like equally crappy, but in different ways.

Shimano's not ashamed about outfitting the entire spectrum of bike pricepoints. I see PLENTY of Shimano bits hanging off bikes at Target and Walmart.

Nonetheless, that's exactly what they are for. Yes, they look broken, but they're meant to be that way.

+1

have a early 90s Specialized Rockhopper with stamped, riveted chain ring crankset and it looks the same (albeit w/smaller number of teeth and chain rings)

shifts smoothly and quietly!

You can see the badly worn teeth and split chain ring. I don't have a pic of the other ring, but it actually has missing teeth. I don't believe those are for easier shifting.
Is that a result of the manufacturing or a result of misuse?
I've seen somebody trash a $60 front derailer. Does that mean that expensive stuff is crap too? A $350 bicycle can't be built like a $1000 one.

When I bought my first bike I went in to my LBS with no knowledge of bikes or components, but after buying a $350 bike and learning the hard way that it was equipped with low end components I made some upgrades in the areas that needed it. I was not upset with Trek for having produced a cheap bike because I bought a cheap bike, and while it is true that I could have walked into a department store and bought a cheaper bike with the same crankset, the rest of the bike would have been garbage and would have fallen apart my now.

Do you think that a car manufacturer uses all the same components in their $10,000 car as their $50,000 car?

What the OP fails to understand is that the very bottom of the LBS bike range is still somewhat above the very top of Department store bike range. Also, the LBS is far more likely to assemble and adjust the bike properly.

Go to Target or Wal-Mart and ask the sales person in the bike department about recommended seat height and then do the same at a bike shop. Let me know who gives the more useful information.

I've worked on low end bike shop bikes and tried to work on DS bikes. The differences are clearly apparent.

http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/2436/img0004dn.jpg

Yes people mistake shifting aids as damaged teeth all the time but if someone includes a photo at least look at it first. That crack is not supposed to be there.

http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/2436/img0004dn.jpg

Yes people mistake shifting aids as damaged teeth all the time but if someone includes a photo at least look at it first. That crack is not supposed to be there.

It's not a crack. I have a brand new low-end Shimano crank with the same "crack" in the chainring. It's a stamped-in shifting aid.

That photo was not present when I first replied but my reply wouldn't have been any different if it was.

Exactly, and I was pointing out that the LBS bikes, too have integrated steel rings, just like (or worse than) the DS (Dept Store) bikes, instead of the expected better quality interchangeable rings.

"Better quality" depends on who you ask. Those stamped steel rings are cheaper to replace (yes, you replace the whole crankset but it can be had for less than the cost of a single aluminum ring) and last longer than aluminum rings. I've also found that they shift just fine considering the bikes they come on. The only thing left is weight. The average consumer wouldn't know the difference between steel and aluminum anyway so it's a non-issue to them. Your expectation for replaceable chainrings on the lowest end of bike store bikes is not realistic.

It's not a crack. I have a brand new low-end Shimano crank with the same "crack" in the chainring. It's a stamped-in shifting aid.

That photo was not present when I first replied but my reply wouldn't have been any different if it was.

My wife's Shimano equipped bike is exactly the same way. I know that looks like hell... but it shifts quite smoothly. :thumb:


Greg

http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/2436/img0004dn.jpg

Yes people mistake shifting aids as damaged teeth all the time but if someone includes a photo at least look at it first. That crack is not supposed to be there.

The amount of wrong posted on this forum really makes me sad sometimes.

I think the myth here is even if a cheap bike is bought at a bike shop, it will likely have low end components. Cheap is cheap. But you are not going to get any advise, any after sale service, or whatever, at your favorite department store. So if you are fine with the lack of advice, a used higher end bike can usually be found on Craigs List, for the same or less than Walmart's finest.

I think the myth here is even if a cheap bike is bought at a bike shop, it will likely have low end components. Cheap is cheap. But you are not going to get any advise, any after sale service, or whatever, at your favorite department store. So if you are fine with the lack of advice, a used higher end bike can usually be found on Craigs List, for the same or less than Walmart's finest.

The only difference between a low end LBS bike and the dept store bike is hopefully that the former was actually properly assembled. That is what you're paying for (again hopefully).

I am glad to see you are figuring your way through the quagmire of stuff out there. Keep an open mind as you trial and error your way through the learning process you are undergoing and learn as much you can as tinker with these entry level products.

www.bicycles4ever.com

I am glad to see you are figuring your way through the quagmire of stuff out there. Keep an open mind as you trial and error your way through the learning process you are undergoing and learn as much you can as tinker with these entry level products.

www.bicycles4ever.com

Worst webdesign ever. Wow

There is also a range of quality of the welded steel chain ring crank sets. I have an older Raleigh M60 mountain bike with Alivio crank/rings on it and they have been plugging along with out complaint for over 3000 miles for me. They look cheap compared to better crank sets, but they seem to get the job done.

Now the crank set in the picture looks a few steps down from my Alivio.

There is also a range of quality of the welded steel chain ring crank sets. I have an older Raleigh M60 mountain bike with Alivio crank/rings on it and they have been plugging along with out complaint for over 3000 miles for me. They look cheap compared to better crank sets, but they seem to get the job done.

Now the crank set in the picture looks a few steps down from my Alivio.

That crankset retails for $20-$30. I spend more than that on beer a day.

http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/2436/img0004dn.jpg

Yes people mistake shifting aids as damaged teeth all the time but if someone includes a photo at least look at it first. That crack is not supposed to be there.


If you look a the photo of the entire chainring set again, you'll see an identical "crack" 180 degrees out from the first one.

It's not a crack. I have a brand new low-end Shimano crank with the same "crack" in the chainring. It's a stamped-in shifting aid.

Reminds me that old 'it's not a bug, it is a feature' line.

Kam

That crankset retails for $20-$30. I spend more than that on beer a day.

We know.

The amount of wrong posted on this forum really makes me sad sometimes.

I'll help you out of your suicidal depression...

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b90/compost_bin/bicycle/IMG_3058.jpg

The cuts are intentional. They're indexed shifting aids. They look awful, but they do work.


Greg

Wow, that looks terrible from the front photo it looks like a crack to me, I would have been mistaken too.

but on the dept store assembly quality just spin any front wheel and see how true it is. that will show the difference between the dept store vs bike shop.

Wow, that looks terrible from the front photo it looks like a crack to me, I would have been mistaken too.

Yeah... I thought the same thing until I looked at the other similarly equipped bikes and saw that they ALL had exactly the same cuts.

Note that they're made on the side opposite the pulling side of each tooth, and the metal is deflected so as not to interfere with the side plates of the chain.


Greg

The amount of wrong posted on this forum really makes me sad sometimes.

Why? The OP and probably more readers learned something.
It's perfectly understandable for someone seeing a jagged crack in a bike part and believe it is a defect.
I think it shows that this place presents great opportunities to learn and clarify wrongs.

That crankset retails for $20-$30. I spend more than that on beer a day.

OK, now i understand.

If you read the forums for some time you see that the discussion/questions are more often about price than quality. Shimano as most others are pressed to dliver cheap.

We get what we ask for and we get what we pay for most of the time.

Why? The OP and probably more readers learned something.


Lesson: Learning is wrong.

Lesson: Learning is wrong.

Yes, I the OP did have some misconceptions cleared out. Thanks.

If you read the forums for some time you see that the discussion/questions are more often about price than quality. Shimano as most others are pressed to deliver cheap.

We get what we ask for and we get what we pay for most of the time.

Yes. :)

You're absolutely right...

We bought my wife's Shimano Altus equipped Diamond Back Sorrento new for about $200 in 1993, and it has given her flawless service for 16 years. In fact, I liked her Altus cantilever brakes so much, I put them on both of my bikes for $20 a set... and they work beautifully.

Shimano offers some really cheap components... with really good design engineering. :thumb:

Greg

One thing to remember about Shimano's cheaper stuff is that the market share (and profits) they got that way pay for the r&d (r@d) that gave us indexing, hyperglide, etc. For example, Suntour didn't make internally geared 3-speed hubs for Sears and Roebuck Easy Spirits, but when Shimano plowed the money they made that way into r&d they ran Suntour out of business. A shame really, but Suntour rested on the laurels it gained with the "slant-parallelogram" derailler and paid the price.

One thing to remember about Shimano's cheaper stuff is that the market share (and profits) they got that way pay for the r&d (r@d) that gave us indexing, hyperglide, etc. For example, Suntour didn't make internally geared 3-speed hubs for Sears and Roebuck Easy Spirits, but when Shimano plowed the money they made that way into r&d they ran Suntour out of business. A shame really, but Suntour rested on the laurels it gained with the "slant-parallelogram" derailler and paid the price.
Sun Tour's demise was a bit more complicated than that but there is merit to what you wrote.

For a more detailed review of the rise and fall of Sun Tour read Frank Berto's history of the company titled "Sunset for Sun Tour". The text is available here: http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~hadland/page35.htm

It's a very interesting article.

Reminds me that old 'it's not a bug, it is a feature' line.

Kam

Except that is an intentional feature of the crank... it is designed to catch the chain and pull it up on to the next ring... this function is served by pins on higher end parts... WHat the OP describes as 'missing' gear teeth may be a cut down tooth to allow the chain to jump off and head for the next gear - called a 'ramp' on higher end stuff.

I fear the problem with the original post is that the population used for the study was too small, and he did not know the history of the bikes.
He makes a good point, though - cheap is cheap, no matter where you buy it. SOmeone said above that the proper assembly and service from a bike shop is what you pay for - the actual quality of a $200 bike shop bike is similar to a $200 dept. store bike.

The biggest difference between a bike shop and a department store bike is at the bike shop they'd be able to explain shift ramps.

One thing to remember about Shimano's cheaper stuff is that the market share (and profits) they got that way pay for the r&d (r@d) that gave us indexing, hyperglide, etc. For example, Suntour didn't make internally geared 3-speed hubs for Sears and Roebuck Easy Spirits, but when Shimano plowed the money they made that way into r&d they ran Suntour out of business. A shame really, but Suntour rested on the laurels it gained with the "slant-parallelogram" derailler and paid the price.

If you read about Suntours history, they did not rest on their laurels. From the history:
SunTour's pricing policy

In 1975, SunTour introduced the Cyclone derailleur, which was a lighter, polished version of the SunTour V. SunTour's policy was to add a markup to production cost to set a "fair" price. They did not charge what the traffic would bear. In 1975, a Cyclone cost $16.00, a Campagnolo Nuovo Record or a Huret Jubilee cost $40.00 and a Shimano Crane cost $20.00. The Nuovo Record and Crane both weighed about 200 grams and the Jubilee weighed 140 grams. The Cyclone weighed 175 grams and it shifted best.

Long term this really bit them in the @ss (not enought R&D money), but it did lead to some low to mid level bikes have much better quality drive trains. When indexing heated up, they did not have the cash to compete with the deep pockets of Shimano.

Somehow I bet if someone made brifters and charged the 'fair' rather then the market price they would cost $100-300 rather than starting around $250-300 and going up from there.

Somehow I bet if someone made brifters and charged the 'fair' rather then the market price they would cost $100-300 rather than starting around $250-300 and going up from there.

They could charge much less, unless that someone actually wanted to recoup their R&D time and tooling dollars in a somewhat reasonable time frame. Sure, the actual component cost of a brifter isn't that much, but that's only a small part of the whole picture.

Then again, those Nashbar Microshift brifters are $200.

I put a cheap TY33 ($23 crankset) on my girlfriend's touring/commuting bike in a pinch and she's gone thousands and thousands of kms on it and it's still going strong. I intend to replace it with an LX crankset but the thing just won't wear out... all for the price of less than the granny gear on the LX set. If you don't care about looks or weight the cheap stuff can be just fine sometimes.

If you read about Suntours history, they did not rest on their laurels. From the history:
SunTour's pricing policy

In 1975, SunTour introduced the Cyclone derailleur, which was a lighter, polished version of the SunTour V. SunTour's policy was to add a markup to production cost to set a "fair" price. They did not charge what the traffic would bear. In 1975, a Cyclone cost $16.00, a Campagnolo Nuovo Record or a Huret Jubilee cost $40.00 and a Shimano Crane cost $20.00. The Nuovo Record and Crane both weighed about 200 grams and the Jubilee weighed 140 grams. The Cyclone weighed 175 grams and it shifted best.

Long term this really bit them in the @ss (not enought R&D money), but it did lead to some low to mid level bikes have much better quality drive trains. When indexing heated up, they did not have the cash to compete with the deep pockets of Shimano.

Somehow I bet if someone made brifters and charged the 'fair' rather then the market price they would cost $100-300 rather than starting around $250-300 and going up from there.
It was more than just lack of profit margin that hurt Sun Tour. Their low (but fair, if you want to call it that) pricing hurt the perception of them in the market. If their rear derailleur sold for $16 and the Campy sold for $40, then the Campy HAD to be MUCH better and the Sun Tour must be second rate. Even if objectively the Sun Tour shifted better and was durable, it couldn't be as good.

That perception of lower quality based solely on pricing hurt Sun Tour's image in the market more than even the lack of R&D funds. In an objective market, Sun Tour would have greatly outsold everybody else and "made it up in volume" but, the market isn't objective and image plays a big part.

The biggest difference between a bike shop and a department store bike is at the bike shop they'd be able to explain shift ramps.

Actually, the biggest difference is that bike shop bikes come in sizes.

Actually, the biggest difference is that bike shop bikes come in sizes.

....and are usually built by someone other than a shelf stocker.

When people come into my shop with Walmart Schwinns that don't work, I find myself explaining that the largest difference between the shiny mechanical mess before them and the vaunted Schwinns they grew up with was that the old Schwinn they loved came from a bike shop. That old 40 pound Varsity that couldn't be killed was put together by someone who generally cared about what they were doing and serviced it as well.

Now, it's the race to the bottom and the landfills are full of cheap crap that was a waste of resources to construct.

Uh, there are knuckleheads working in bike shops too. For example, the one that assembled my bike...:mad:

They could charge much less, unless that someone actually wanted to recoup their R&D time and tooling dollars in a somewhat reasonable time frame. Sure, the actual component cost of a brifter isn't that much, but that's only a small part of the whole picture.

Then again, those Nashbar Microshift brifters are $200.


Okay, but lets say that 9 speed has been out for a bunch of years and you have recouped your R&D costs --- why not drop the price. Or offer 7 or 8 speed units for cheap? Or send the 7-8 speed stuff to a 3rd party to manufacture sort of like generic drugs -- generic Tiagra or 105 brifters?

I totally get when the latest and greatest comes out (11 speed electric shifting etc etc) charging a premium to recoup development costs, but 3-4-5-? years out shouldn't the price have really dropped a bunch?

Okay, but lets say that 9 speed has been out for a bunch of years and you have recouped your R&D costs --- why not drop the price. Or offer 7 or 8 speed units for cheap? Or send the 7-8 speed stuff to a 3rd party to manufacture sort of like generic drugs -- generic Tiagra or 105 brifters?

I totally get when the latest and greatest comes out (11 speed electric shifting etc etc) charging a premium to recoup development costs, but 3-4-5-? years out shouldn't the price have really dropped a bunch?

In the MTB world, everything that you want to be true is already true. You can get 8 and 9 speed shifters for very little money. In the road world, things are a little different. However, as of last year, Sora 7 and 8 speed brifters were readily available for about $120/pair. Those have since been discontinued but I see no reason why Shimano wouldn't once again offer a road shifter set for around that same price point, unless they found they weren't making money on it.

I have to believe that the majority of their sales are to bike manufacturers not at the retail level. It follows then that their retail pricing would be considerably higher than you'd expect based on what you can buy an entry level road bike for. Until that changes, the cheapest way to get a groupset might be Bikesdirect.

As for generics, Shimano obviously has expired patents that would allow anyone to steal their design and manufacture it. Likely, there isn't as much money to be made in that business as you assume there is, which is in complete contrast to the generic drug example you mentioned above.

Okay, but lets say that 9 speed has been out for a bunch of years and you have recouped your R&D costs --- why not drop the price. Or offer 7 or 8 speed units for cheap?
That's exactly what happens when X+1 speed comes out. The previous generation components are sold at very attractive prices by the large retailers like Nashbar, Performance, Jenson, etc.

After 10-speed Ultegra and 105 were introduced, there was a fair period of time when 9-speed brifters, cranks, derailleurs, etc were being sold at very large discounts. I bought a brand new 9-speed Ultegra triple crank for $90 during that sale period.

However, eventually that supply dries up and anyone wanting to keep a 9-speed road bike going has to scrounge around for new parts and the prices reflect the now-rarity of them. The price for a 2002 Chevy is much lower than for a new one. The price for a good 1957 Chevy is even higher than a new one.