Bicycle Mechanics - when will it end

When will the push to add gears to bikes end. My Rans has 27 gears, and even that is probably too many. Now there are 10 and I think I have heard of someone having 11 speeds in the rear. This is over kill and makes no sense. Ever more gears call for thinner chains that are weaker and wear out faster. Also more cogs in the rear call for more dish making the rear wheel weaker.

Thinner chains don't wear out faster, although they may be less robust in other ways.
Rear wheel dish hasn't changed since the first 8-speeds.
10-speeds may not have much real advantage over 8, but I don't think they are "too many".
I think Campy probably realizes 11-speeds was a mistake.
So I think the answer is... it has already ended with 10.

As noted, wheel dish hasn't changed since the introduction of 8-speed cassettes and even 8-speed had very little more dish than 6/7-speed as the dropout width increased from 126 to 130 mm (or from 130 to 135 mm for MTBs) along with the extra cassette width.

Campy seems to have gotten away with 11-speed since their 10-speed cassettes are a bit wider than Shimano's so there was room to crowd in one more cog without obsoleting their previous hubs. Whether they view it as a mistake, time will tell.

I started riding with 6-speed freewheels and have considered every increase up to 10-speed as a plus. 11-speed is a lot harder to justify as there are no obvious gaps in any reasonable 10-speed cassette range.

I think it ended with 9-speed. My 10-speed Dura-Ace drivetrain is significantly more finicky than my 9-speed 105 drivetrain.

It's like CPU speed in Laptops- nobody needs 4 GHz processors when they're doing word processing and web browsing. Component makers add speeds because they don't have enough imagination or budget to actually innovate, and they need to make the old stuff obsolete so we keep buying more.

I don't think they will stop at 11. To get a better range with no gaps is to get away from the cogs all together. Things like the belt drive system will initiate better in hub gearing. This will lead to research in the "infinite increment" gearing they have been working on for years. I think it works much like the brake in a coaster brake hub that can expand and contract to change the gear using a cone, so you wont get "more" gears just a more expansive range.

I don't think they will stop at 11. To get a better range with no gaps is to get away from the cogs all together. Things like the belt drive system will initiate better in hub gearing. This will lead to research in the "infinite increment" gearing they have been working on for years. I think it works much like the brake in a coaster brake hub that can expand and contract to change the gear using a cone, so you wont get "more" gears just a more expansive range.
What you are describing is a "Continually Variable Transmission" (CVT) and it has been "the bike transmission of the future" for 100 years or more. It is likely to always be the transmission of the future.

Actually, now there is one comercially available. The NuVinci CVT is available for bicycle applications and does provide infinite gearing choices through out its range. The downside is weight (almost 9 pounds), cost and a reduction in mechanical efficiency.

Unfortunately, at this point there is no bike gearing method lighter, more efficient, cheaper and with a better gearing range than derailleurs and chainrings/cogs/chains.

My Rans has 27 gears...

You may have 27 different combinations available, but you don't have 27 usefully different ratios - probably more like 15-18 of them.


When will the push to add gears to bikes end.

Well, with each added gear the benefit while JRA of adding one more gear will diminish. But some people are willing to pay top dollar to be the first with the latest, so we can expect manufacturers to keep looking for new angles a while more.


...and even that is probably too many. speak for yourself. The more gears you have, the closer you can run to your fatigue limit while still maintainning a cadence where you are effective.


.... Now there are 10 and I think I have heard of someone having 11 speeds in the rear. This is over kill and makes no sense. I don't know about that. There's a rumor about Shimano launching a 10-spd MTB line, which would give you almost the range of a current riple from a double crank.

shimano has a patent for 14. according to the patent not all cogs come in direct contact with the freehub, so there's no increase in dish.

I don't know about that. There's a rumor about Shimano launching a 10-spd MTB line, which would give you almost the range of a current riple from a double crank.
SRAM has already done that with their XX (2x10) MTB group.

one can also combine SRAM's dual drive hub with 10sp cassette to have 3x3x10.

and if you really want to get crazy with gears, there are a few makers out there that offer cranksets that can use 4 or 5 chainrings.

As with many things ..... the manufacturers are making it more complicated than need be. Do you really need 9 or 10 cogs on the back? How many gears can you really use? I have a 21 speed, which I get 16-17 distinct gears. More cogs sells to the naive public. It's just business, but it can make it difficult getting what you want when you're a pawn for Shimano or Campy. If you don't want more gears, just don't buy them. Stock up on what you like today.

one can also combine SRAM's dual drive hub with 10sp cassette to have 3x3x10.
I wonder if anyone had combined a Rholoff 14-speed IG hub with a 10-speed cassette and a triple crank? Just think, 420 gears!!!

I can't believe thinner chains don't wear the cogs faster unless they are made of significantly better stuff. Also, the sideplates seem thinner, though I could be wrong. That would lead to stretch happening sooner.

chains don's stretch at the side plates.
chains wear out at the rollers, the pivot points.

chains don's stretch at the side plates.
chains wear out at the rollers, the pivot points.would that be the rollers or the pivot points? And if your sideplates don't pivot, what do you call the part that does go around the pins?

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/chains.html
there you have it.

this bike was originally equipped with 105 gears. Triple chain ring, 5 speed mid drive and 7 speed cluster on the wheel. It was done that way for range on the 20 inch wheel, no other reason. I never did the math to determine the number of redundant gears, but there were many.
It has a Rohloff now, and theoretically, I could use any of 5 gears on the mid drive to drive the hub making for 70 gears, but all but the largest,(34 teeth) would exceed Rohloff's input ratio limit.

haha we are having a discussion about this in another post beofer I read this one.

You only need 1 gear.

Am I going to be the first to say it?

Troll, or at least Trollish.

The last article I read on Campy's 11-speed chain was that it is actually STRONGER than the 10 (even though thinner), due to their using a stronger steel alloy for it.

I'm with the original thread - what's going on now is mere advertizing and overkill.
I think the trend of the future is IGH. Get all that intricate stuff sealed away from the dirt, moisture, and hazards of the environment. Of course, the "backyard mechanics" job is going to get alot harder, but.....

The internal gear hub used to be the choice for everyone except serious racers and as derailer gearing became cheaper and more reliable IGH hubs all but vanished from the market.

Things are changing again as IGH hubs have improved to a point (more gear range) that they will probably replace derailer gears on everything except racing bikes.

They make so much sense for most people and an 8 speed IGH offers a wide enough range for pretty much anyone.

Campy Record 11 speed cassette = $449.00

No thanks.

Campy Record 11 speed cassette = $449.00

No thanks.

That steel alloy must contain some gold! :eek:

BF rumor says new XTR will have 10.

Am I going to be the first to say it?

Troll, or at least Trollish.

Quite..

TO the OP:

Just because YOU don't need an 11 speed rear end doesn't mean somone can't have a use for it. It is infinitely useful in racing applications, and if you note its not like EVERY drivetrain is now 11 speed, Campy only offers it on their high end Groupsets. 10 speed and lower is still there and still good for most people. Shimano sells groupsets on tons of bikes that are 8 and 9 speed (Sora and Tiagra). They are the more common setups. Just because a new technology in bikes comes out doesn't mean it is forced upon you to upgrade, and just because YOU don't need it doesn't mean plenty of other people can't find a use for it.

WTF was the point of this post?

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/chains.html
there you have it.

Thank you for the link. It had some nice pictures of an inner side plate worn away, along with a pin.

You realize of course that you could remove all the rollers and ream them out larger so they fit as sloppy as a worn chain, and assemble them to new chain components, and it wouldn't be stretched at all, don't you? The chain would work, too.

The internal gear hub used to be the choice for everyone except serious racers and as derailer gearing became cheaper and more reliable IGH hubs all but vanished from the market.

Things are changing again as IGH hubs have improved to a point (more gear range) that they will probably replace derailer gears on everything except racing bikes.

They make so much sense for most people and an 8 speed IGH offers a wide enough range for pretty much anyone.

I agree. Also no duplication of ratios which can be confusing to the new rider and the single shifter is more idiot proof. The IGH also allows for easy fitting of a chainguard or even a chaincase for pants and chain protection.

The IGH did almost vanish from the market In The USA but remained and still remains popular in many European countries where most people treat bikes as transportation rather than a toy or piece of sports equipment.

That steel alloy must contain some gold! :eek:
Actually it's the Super Record Cassette and the six largest cogs are titanium. Still a ridiculous price? Of course.

The internal gear hub used to be the choice for everyone except serious racers and as derailer gearing became cheaper and more reliable IGH hubs all but vanished from the market.

Things are changing again as IGH hubs have improved to a point (more gear range) that they will probably replace derailer gears on everything except racing bikes.

They make so much sense for most people and an 8 speed IGH offers a wide enough range for pretty much anyone.
Exactly right. My (continuously variable in number) collection of bikes currently stands at 5, all gearhubs,and I still have a few more hubs laying around waiting for suitable bikes to convert.

Where it will end is easy: At some point somebody will figure out how to build a continuously variable bicycle transmission that doesn't absorbe too much power. Ideally it should have an "effort" control so you can work a little bit harder to climb hills without going so slowly that you'll fall over.

Aside from that, what are the extra gears buying you? The percentage difference between an 11 and a 12 tooth cog is pretty well set. You can't have an 11 1/2 tooth cog. At the other end of the cassette, 2 or even 3 tooth cog differences may provide a similar percentage difference. At some point the additional cog isn't really providing closer steps between gears.

It's like CPU speed in Laptops- nobody needs 4 GHz processors when they're doing word processing and web browsing. Component makers add speeds because they don't have enough imagination or budget to actually innovate, and they need to make the old stuff obsolete so we keep buying more.

Bike stuff is not like computers at all. computers are still getting noticeably better better for most users. All those 4GB processors will be obsolete next year, but we'll have better games and easier operating systems. Meanwhile, even a bike with 14 cogs will will have the same motor.


What you are describing is a "Continually Variable Transmission" (CVT) and it has been "the bike transmission of the future" for 100 years or more. It is likely to always be the transmission of the future.

Actually, now there is one comercially available. The NuVinci CVT is available for bicycle applications and does provide infinite gearing choices through out its range. The downside is weight (almost 9 pounds), cost and a reduction in mechanical efficiency.

Unfortunately, at this point there is no bike gearing method lighter, more efficient, cheaper and with a better gearing range than derailleurs and chainrings/cogs/chains.

+1


The last article I read on Campy's 11-speed chain was that it is actually STRONGER than the 10 (even though thinner), due to their using a stronger steel alloy for it.


A chain is only as strong as its weakest link. The problem with chains is how to connect them, and even a 10s chain is too difficult to connect. If you press a pin in to close it, you run the risk of breaking the chain on the road. If you use a master link, you get some ghost shifting. That's the reason 9, 10 or 11s is not appropriate for casual riders.



The more gears you have, the closer you can run to your fatigue limit while still maintaining a cadence where you are effective.


That's only important when you are doing a maximal effort. At moderate levels of effort, optimum cadence is not so important. Even in a race, you are not doing maximal efforts all the time, or even half the time. For most riding, all those extra gears don't help at all, and you will still have enough opportunities to do periods of high effort in the optimum gear, even with a single speed.

I have a 10s that I mostly ride with my training group. I need all those gears because I sometimes need to do a maximum effort to avoid getting dropped. OTOH I would be just as happy if everyone in the group agreed to ride 5s. That wouldn't change a thing, except how often we shift and how much we spend.

I ride about 15 miles to work. There's one hill where I would like a lower gear, and sometimes there's an unpleasant headwind along the river, but the trip takes the same time whether I ride the 10s or the single speed.

High end stuff is all about the latest and greatest, and it's dominated by race gear, but most riders would be better off with simpler and more reliable 7s stuff.

em

Aside from that, what are the extra gears buying you? The percentage difference between an 11 and a 12 tooth cog is pretty well set. You can't have an 11 1/2 tooth cog. At the other end of the cassette, 2 or even 3 tooth cog differences may provide a similar percentage difference. At some point the additional cog isn't really providing closer steps between gears.

This is true unless Shimano/Campy/SRAM has the balls to introduce a finer pitch chain. Can you imagine the belly-aching in this forum when that happens?

I like 8 and 9 speed. 8 is very easy to set up, always shifts smooth. 9 speed is a tiny bit more finicky, but once you figure it out it sets up as easy and shifts even smoother. Probably all I will ever own. I might even change my Sirrus (8spd) over to 9 speed if I can find a 9 speed crankset or chainrings to fit current crank. Just to bridge the gap in some of the rear gears.

18. No more, no less

18. No more, no less

Are you talking about your girlfriend(s) age(s) or gearing?

This is true unless Shimano/Campy/SRAM has the balls to introduce a finer pitch chain. Can you imagine the belly-aching in this forum when that happens?

That would certainly be interesting from a marketing / psychological aspect.

I don't remember hearing people screaming for 10 speeds back when 8 was the norm... but more gears came and most people accepted them. So even though nobody's screaming for the equivalent of an 11-1/2 tooth cogwheel, and I can conceive of a dozen reasons why smaller pitch chains don't make sense... that doesn't mean we might never see them - maybe there will be some other heretofore undefined advantage though like they work better with telekinetic shift implants or something.

That would certainly be interesting from a marketing / psychological aspect.

I don't remember hearing people screaming for 10 speeds back when 8 was the norm... but more gears came and most people accepted them. So even though nobody's screaming for the equivalent of an 11-1/2 tooth cogwheel, and I can conceive of a dozen reasons why smaller pitch chains don't make sense... that doesn't mean we might never see them - maybe there will be some other heretofore undefined advantage though like they work better with telekinetic shift implants or something.


http://www.sheldonbrown.com/nanodrive/index.html

Shimano had a 10mm pitch track chain at one time. I don't know why that failed. Maybe trackies aren't that interested in new equipment.

em

I like 8 and 9 speed. 8 is very easy to set up, always shifts smooth. 9 speed is a tiny bit more finicky, but once you figure it out it sets up as easy and shifts even smoother. Probably all I will ever own. I might even change my Sirrus (8spd) over to 9 speed if I can find a 9 speed crankset or chainrings to fit current crank. Just to bridge the gap in some of the rear gears.

An 8s chainring will work fine with a 9s chain. If you find the chain falling between the 2 rings, you can mill 0.4 mm from the surface of the inside ring to bring it closer to the outside ring. An 8s front derailer will work also. It will work better if you pinch the front of the cage plates together a little.

em

speak for yourself. The more gears you have, the closer you can run to your fatigue limit while still maintainning a cadence where you are effective.


That's the key. More cogs with closer ratio spacings let you keep your cadence in the high efficiency range.
I ride 9-speed Shimano and 10-speed Campy. They're both good but I like 10-speeds better.

Al

I can conceive of a dozen reasons why smaller pitch chains don't make sense...

I'd like to hear them out of curiosity if you don't mind sharing.

Where it will end is easy: At some point somebody will figure out how to build a continuously variable bicycle transmission that doesn't absorbe too much power. Ideally it should have an "effort" control so you can work a little bit harder to climb hills without going so slowly that you'll fall over....

I wonder how much THAT beats will cost?:eek:

Thank you for the link. It had some nice pictures of an inner side plate worn away, along with a pin.

You realize of course that you could remove all the rollers and ream them out larger so they fit as sloppy as a worn chain, and assemble them to new chain components, and it wouldn't be stretched at all, don't you? The chain would work, too.

sorry, I totally forgot about the pin wear. you're right.

Shimano had a 10mm pitch track chain at one time. I don't know why that failed. Maybe trackies aren't that interested in new equipment.
em

Shimano also experimented with 10mm chains and cassettes...

I'd like to hear them out of curiosity if you don't mind sharing.

Assuming we're talking about enough of a pitch change to affect gearing (3/8" or 1/4"), not just a metric semi-equivalent to 1/2".


It would weigh more
It would cost more
It would be less strong
It would wear out faster
Cassette would wear out faster
etc
etc
etc
etc
etc
etc
etc

It would weigh more
It would cost more
It would be less strong
It would wear out faster
Cassette would wear out faster
etc
etc
etc
etc
etc
etc
etc


Basically everything that people have said about 8/9/10 speed stuff (aside from weight). With more teeth on the cassette cogs, I don't think they'd wear that much quicker. All of the chain parts would need to be scaled down though which would require some pricey materials to get the same strength and wear resistance. Of course it would cost more :D

Basically everything that people have said about 8/9/10 speed stuff (aside from weight). With more teeth on the cassette cogs, I don't think they'd wear that much quicker. All of the chain parts would need to be scaled down though which would require some pricey materials to get the same strength and wear resistance. Of course it would cost more :D

They do make 1/4" and 3/8" pitch chains for other purposes... when you look at them you can visualize why they might not work very well on a bike - I suspect for one thing they're less flexible so shifting would suffer.



3/8" pitch
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31vq0yi%2B5CL._AA550_.jpg

1/4" pitch
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/3130TttFMgL._AA550_.jpg

Here's a 1/4" pitch sprocket with 40t, so the equivalent to a 20-tooth 1/2" sprocket.
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31O86QraMnL._SS500_.jpg
I'm sure I could sheer the teeth right off that thing in a good sprint :thumb:

I use an 8 speed and a double crank. Now, maybe I've got it wrong, but on the road I sure don't shift shift the front much, if ever. I just stay on the 39t ring, usually on the 13t or 14t cog, then move up to the top when I have a tail wind or something. Each ring up front just sets the range of the rear for me.

I don't want to have to shift both front and rear to get from gear "17" to "18" cause that would probably involve three or even four actual shifts from cog-to-cog-to-cog and then ring-to-ring, and all over again to get to "19". That can't be how riding is meant to be--who could remember all the combinations?

I'm no climber either, so for me going from the 21 cog to the 19 is usually too much. I need a 20 too. And the case can be made for all the rest of the cogs while climbing other grades or facing stronger/weaker headwinds.

Exactly right. My (continuously variable in number) collection of bikes currently stands at 5, all gearhubs,and I still have a few more hubs laying around waiting for suitable bikes to convert.

Are you one of the few who can rebuild internal gearhubs?