Advocacy & Safety - How Much More Stoopider can the police get?

From this news report:

http://www.wjhg.com/news/headlines/62732937.html

This is a sad story, as two teens on bicycles were hit by a motorist. One was critically injured, and as a dad, my heart goes out to the families.

But I am pretty outraged by the amount of stupid the police are demonstrating.

First of all, they caught the guy immediately after and one of the arresting officers said his "breath smelled like alcohol." But there is no indication they performed a Breathalyzer or even a field sobriety test. WTF? He also wasn't charged with any DUI. C'mon guys. Either he was DUI, and you screwed up the case, or he wasn't DUI and you are just slandering him.

Second is this lovely quote from the sherriff's bicycle "safety" coordinator in response to two kids getting run over by a motorist who may have been drinking:

"Bay County Sheriff's Office Bicycle Safety Coordinator, Sgt. Marc Tochterman, says the first thing a biker can do is make sure to always wear a helmet.

Florida is one of the leading states in brain injuries due to bikers not wearing a helmet."

Ok, this idiot is clearly making it up as he goes along. Also, there is no indication that either of the kids sustained head injuries, and the less-injured youth "is sore and has scrapes, cuts and bruises."

Excuse me, but how the $#%^! would a helmet have helped this kid???

Freakin' magic styrofoam. How stupid can people get?

Didn't you know that helmets create a force-field that repels wayward motorists?

One kid critical condition. Doesn't say why, could be multiple injuries including head. Why are you so opposed to helmets? They work, I've proved it myself.

Maybe they didn't find the guy for a couple of hours, maybe breathalyzer was inconclusive. They are not going to charge him for a crime until they have all the evidence. This way they can bring all the charges at once. This also ensures they have a case that will stick.

Stupid is as stupid does, you just keep riding without your helmet, it only takes .5 seconds to make it permanent.

That's an unacceptable story--it's a frickin' Dilbert cartoon. Good grief.

One kid critical condition. Doesn't say why, could be multiple injuries including head. Why are you so opposed to helmets? They work, I've proved it myself.

Maybe they didn't find the guy for a couple of hours, maybe breathalyzer was inconclusive. They are not going to charge him for a crime until they have all the evidence. This way they can bring all the charges at once. This also ensures they have a case that will stick.

Stupid is as stupid does, you just keep riding without your helmet, it only takes .5 seconds to make it permanent.

The OP doesn't sound opposed to helmets... just the outlandish claims made by the uninformed public regarding the and use of helmets and the focus on the use of helmets.

Never mind that there were probably other mitigating factors in this case... "let's focus on the helmet use..." D'OH!

Yeah, I won't ride without a helmet myself, but the quote should probably have read more like "Florida is one of the leading states for cyclist brain injuries due to boneheaded drivers doing stupid stuff or driving distracted or drunk."

The responsibility for the cyclist to wear a helmet to mitigate injury is far, far down on the list below the responsibility of the car driver to NOT HIT THEM.

Here's perhaps the stupidest statement of all in this story: "Tochterman's biggest recommendation is helmets, "If you don't do anything else where a helmet if you fall off that bike a mirror is not going to help you a helmet will." Yeah, right, a piece of plastic and styrofoam on your head in case you "fall off" is more important than a piece of safety equipment designed to help avoid being run over by a car!

. . . How stupid can people get?

Stupid enough to assume facts not known and use them to denigrate individuals and groups?

"If you don't do anything else where a helmet if you fall off that bike a mirror is not going to help you a helmet will."

I'd say the writer of this story is pretty stupid, unless the cop submitted this quote in writing. Hard to say the cops are stupid from the info in the story, at least the offender was arrested.

So, has anyone written to the 'reporter' who filed the story or to the newspaper to voice their concerns about how poorly it was written and with regard to what was reported? How about to the the Bay County Sheriff's Office Bicycle Safety Coordinator, Sgt. Marc Tochterman? Anyone offered up the Sgt. a few good links to factual information that suggests a helmet may or may not have been of help in this situation and that the ownus for blame correctly falls on the motorist who, thankfully, has been charged?

Or, how about to the Florida Bicycle Association, who published the FLORIDA BICYCLE LAW ENFORCEMENT GUIDE (http://www.sharetheroad.org/lawenf/LEG604onl.pdf) that seems to contain much of the same guidance cited by Sgt Tochterman?



*LIGHTING EQUIPMENT [§316.2065(8)]

A bicycle operated between sunset and sunrise
must be equipped with a lamp on the front exhibiting
a white light visible from 500 feet to the front and
both a red reflector and a lamp on the rear exhibiting
a red light visible from 600 feet to the rear.

Additional lighting is permitted and recommended.
The risk of fatal or incapacitating injury increases
sharply at night.

BICYCLE HELMET [§316.2065(3)(d,e)]
A bicycle rider or passenger under 16 years of age
must wear a bicycle helmet that:
● is properly fitted;
● is fastened securely;
● meets a nationally recognized standard.

Under federal law, bicycle helmets are required to
meet the standards of the Consumer Product Safety
Commission.

Bicycle helmets, properly fitted and secured, have
been found effective at reducing the incidence and
severity of head, brain and upper facial injury. (Head
injuries account for about one third of the hospital
emergency room visits of injured cyclists.)

Use of helmets by adult role models promotes use
among youth. Agencies should consider rewarding
children who comply with this section, as well as
warning those who don't.

I suspect Sgt Tochterman's quote regarding "Florida is one of the leading states for cyclist brain injuries" also comes from material provided by others who are represented as authorities on the subject. I'd also bet a box of donuts the comment about wearing a mirror to reduce the chance of injury vs. the helmet was a response to a question asked by the reporter. As for 'why' helmets are mentioned so often, again look to all of the agencies that provide bicycle safety information that have been hammering-home the message on helmets for the past 20 years.

Bottom Line: The officer is merely quoting chapter and verse and "approved statements" from what even most bicycle advocacy groups provide. If you doubt it, go check for yourself. So, how do you fix that?

Bottom Line: The officer is merely quoting chapter and verse and "approved statements" from what even most bicycle advocacy groups provide.

Exactly; like telling women not to wear suggestive clothing after some woman gets raped.

As for 'why' helmets are mentioned so often, again look to all of the agencies that provide bicycle safety information that have been hammering-home the message on helmets for the past 20 years.

What message would that be...that they are not designed to protect you from two tons of metal plowing into you at 35mph....or that government has decided to give up enforcing traffic laws and competent operation of vehicles in favor of mandating more protective devices?

But hey, we're giving out free helmets, so we feel good about ourselves.

Bottom Line: The officer is merely quoting chapter and verse and "approved statements" from what even most bicycle advocacy groups provide. If you doubt it, go check for yourself. So, how do you fix that?

Please point me to the advocacy group that thinks wearing a helmet is more important than visibility or situational awareness...so I can tell them what morans they are and warn others to ignore their stupidity.

Please point me to the advocacy group that thinks wearing a helmet is more important than visibility or situational awareness...so I can tell them what morans they are and warn others to ignore their stupidity.

It's the emphasis and effectiveness of the messages....

Looked at another way, tell me which advocacy organizations provide balanced information regarding the pros and cons of helmets and suggest that while a helmet is a good idea and cheap form of insurance against low-speed accidents, riding skills and knowledge of safe cycling practices are your most important tools for cyclists safety?

Been to a ski slope lately? Last time I did any alpine skiing was 1991 before leaving California. The only people wearing helmets were downhill and GS racers. Sonny Bono wasn't killed because he didn't have a helmet, but you'd have thought that was the case after he (and Kennedy) died skiing back in the 90's. Ski helmets have been a cause celebre ever since and are now apparently treated much like cycling helmets in matters regarding ski safety and injury prevention. Of course, if you run into a tree at 45 mph with your ski helmet on you'll still be DOA... never mind that you probably didn't ski within your skills and capabilities or take the environment into consideration.

Please point me to the advocacy group that thinks wearing a helmet is more important than visibility or situational awareness...so I can tell them what morans they are and warn others to ignore their stupidity.

First safety gear you buy for your bike....hmm, helmet or mirror? A mirror may help you avoid a vehicle from behind, a helmet will help for any type of accident. Not all accidents are caused by cars hitting us from behind.

I think you need to rethink who the morons are.

First safety gear you buy for your bike....hmm, helmet or mirror? A mirror may help you avoid a vehicle from behind, a helmet will help for any type of accident. Not all accidents are caused by cars hitting us from behind.

I think you need to rethink who the morons are.

1. where did I say anything about a mirror?
situational awareness <> mirror
visibility <> mirror

both visibility and situational awareness have a vastly greater impact on your safety than a helmet, which can only do its job after its too late to prevent. Do you disagree? Do you feel that a helmet has some magical power to prevent accidents?

But thanks for putting words in my mouth...and the first safety gear I bought for my bike was a clue...and it has served me well for many decades.

First safety gear you buy for your bike....hmm, helmet or mirror? A mirror may help you avoid a vehicle from behind, a helmet will help for any type of accident. Not all accidents are caused by cars hitting us from behind.

I think you need to rethink who the morons are.

Actually a mirror helps you negotiate and merge with traffic, just like the driver of a car. Yes, it is it help avoid being hit by a vehicle from behind, but not in the "I have to watch the cars behind me" sense.

1. where did I say anything about a mirror?
situational awareness <> mirror
visibility <> mirror

both visibility and situational awareness have a vastly greater impact on your safety than a helmet, which can only do its job after its too late to prevent. Do you disagree? Do you feel that a helmet has some magical power to prevent accidents?

But thanks for putting words in my mouth...and the first safety gear I bought for my bike was a clue...and it has served me well for many decades.

Well actually I do think situational awareness = mirror. ;)

Well actually I do think situational awareness = mirror. ;)

Mirrors are only an enhancement, Gene...they are not a substitute for a head check and they don't automagically give you spidey senses. ;)

Mirrors are only an enhancement, Gene...they are not a substitute for a head check and they don't automagically give you spidey senses. ;)

Chip I think a mirror (I use the helmet or eyeglass mounted type, depending on my mood) is far better than a headcheck. I can move my head only a little bit left and right, up and down, and see what is coming from behind from the horizon to my back wheel, from the shoulder to the other side of the road. All this without turning my head completely around which

(1) takes my eyes off the road in front of me (collided with anything behind you lately?) at the very time I probably need it the most;

(2) may or may not send signals to the vehicles behind me that I am somehow acknowledging their presence or giving approval to pass, proceed, or whatever.

My mirror allows me to monitor the road continuously. Sounds pretty spidey to me! ;)

roughstuff

Chip I think a mirror (I use the helmet or eyeglass mounted type, depending on my mood) is far better than a headcheck. I can move my head only a little bit left and right, up and down, and see what is coming from behind from the horizon to my back wheel, from the shoulder to the other side of the road. All this without turning my head completely around which

(1) takes my eyes off the road in front of me (collided with anything behind you lately?) at the very time I probably need it the most;

(2) may or may not send signals to the vehicles behind me that I am somehow acknowledging their presence or giving approval to pass, proceed, or whatever.

My mirror allows me to monitor the road continuously. Sounds pretty spidey to me! ;)

roughstuff

But just like a mirror on any other vehicle, is not a replacement for a head check. I use one myself, and recommend them as an enhancement to situational awareness....but I still give a head check before actually making a movement and remember that they are a tool, not a crutch.

"Bay County Sheriff's Office Bicycle Safety Coordinator, Sgt. Marc Tochterman, says the first thing a biker can do is make sure to always wear a helmet.

Florida is one of the leading states in brain injuries due to bikers not wearing a helmet."

The real reason Florida is "one of the leading states in brain injuries" is due to being one of the leading states with the worst drivers.

There is not any other state that I have lived/traveled in with worse drivers, not even Hawaii.

Chip I think a mirror (I use the helmet or eyeglass mounted type, depending on my mood) is far better than a headcheck. I can move my head only a little bit left and right, up and down, and see what is coming from behind from the horizon to my back wheel, from the shoulder to the other side of the road. All this without turning my head completely around which

(1) takes my eyes off the road in front of me (collided with anything behind you lately?) at the very time I probably need it the most;

(2) may or may not send signals to the vehicles behind me that I am somehow acknowledging their presence or giving approval to pass, proceed, or whatever.

My mirror allows me to monitor the road continuously. Sounds pretty spidey to me! ;)

roughstuff

I have to split the difference between you and chip here... while the mirror DOES improve my situational awareness by allowing me to glance back while still looking ahead, I never make a lateral move without actually doing a head check.

On the other hand, the mirror offers what you are speaking of... the ability to keep aware of what is going on without having to look away. I know when it is safe to do the headcheck without offing potentially confusing "signals" to motorists.

For safety, I'd take a mirror over a helmet any day. I use the mirror all the time and feel naked without it. I can't say the same about a helmet. In fact, I only "needed" a helmet one time, yet I have worn them for years. (the sad reality is I did not have one on at the time, and suffered for weeks perhaps because of that)

OK, those of you who feel more secure using a bike mirror, go ahead and continue to do so. Others who do not, continue NOT to do so.

Like helmets, they are not the magic bullet (no spidey sense, good one, chipcom); remember the bit about driving a car, as well -- check your mirrors AND YOUR BLIND SPOTS -- why? Because mirrors don't cover 100% of your field of vision!

I will continue to head check AND trust my alert ears (which haven't failed me yet) to track an approaching car.

Now, to the OT:

Nobody in any authority there is focusing on THE REAL PROBLEM, THAT A DRIVER IN A CAR, WHO MAY HAVE BEEN DRUNK, PLOWED TWO CYCLISTS? HOW THE F*** IS IT THE CYCLISTS' FAULT IN ANY WAY THAT THEY GOT HIT?

GOD, am I glad I don't live in that state anymore.....

OK, time to breathe, went back and re-read the news report.

They really need to tell the 'bikes beware' crowd to STFU!!!! It's risky to ride because drivers aren't held to a simple standard -- WATCH OUT FOR THE OTHER GUY! The only smart thing they said about the bike riders was having lights on the bikes in low-light conditions.

I hear it all the time, how drivers don't "expect" to see cyclists on the road; uh, SO WHAT? You don't expect to see another car pull out 6 feet in front of you either, but it happens! You don't expect to get t-boned by a drunk driver, but it happens!

The UNEXPECTED is why you must be vigilant, and why you need insurance! If all that you would ever encounter on the road was what you expected, no one would get in an accident.

(As I pound my fists on the table, I chant) "STAN-DARDS! STAN-DARDS!"

OK, those of you who feel more secure using a bike mirror, go ahead and continue to do so. Others who do not, continue NOT to do so.

Like helmets, they are not the magic bullet (no spidey sense, good one, chipcom); remember the bit about driving a car, as well -- check your mirrors AND YOUR BLIND SPOTS -- why? Because mirrors don't cover 100% of your field of vision!

I will continue to head check AND trust my alert ears (which haven't failed me yet) to track an approaching car.



Please be aware that my thinking on this is that head checks, hearing, spider sense... whatever are all part of the big picture, and a mirror is just one more information gathering tool in maintaining the big picture... I certainly would not depend on a mirror 100% any more than I would depend on hearing 100%.

However that said, I would use whatever tool I could. (if radar were available... dammit, I'd get it) :D

When riding a bike I do not have sheets of metal and yards of padding to protect me, therefore... I am 110% dependent on situational awareness and experience at reading situations, and reaction time... (which unfortunately increases with age)

As I said, I would take a mirror over a helmet any day. A mirror adds to my safety, a helmet is only post incident protection.

1. where did I say anything about a mirror?
situational awareness <> mirror
visibility <> mirror

both visibility and situational awareness have a vastly greater impact on your safety than a helmet, which can only do its job after its too late to prevent. Do you disagree? Do you feel that a helmet has some magical power to prevent accidents?

But thanks for putting words in my mouth...and the first safety gear I bought for my bike was a clue...and it has served me well for many decades.

Disagree. We can't avoid every accident, some we just can't see coming. But we can protect ourselves for every accident. Example, a few years ago my front wheel quick release failed. ( I think my 5yr old at the time loosened it). As I attempted to hop a dip in the road I found a quick need for my helmet. I smashed it to bits, I'd likely be dead without it. Magic mirror may have helped. I agree that being aware of our surroundings is critical, but do you check every car approaching from behind?

I think you may have misplaced your clue.

do you check every car approaching from behind?

Yes.

Disagree. We can't avoid every accident, some we just can't see coming. But we can protect ourselves for every accident. Example, a few years ago my front wheel quick release failed. ( I think my 5yr old at the time loosened it). As I attempted to hop a dip in the road I found a quick need for my helmet. I smashed it to bits, I'd likely be dead without it. Magic mirror may have helped. I agree that being aware of our surroundings is critical, but do you check every car approaching from behind?

I think you may have misplaced your clue.

So you actually think that a helmet is more important than visibility and situational awareness...and in your case, the sense to do a basic PM check of your bike before riding it?
You best keep that helmet on at all times...you really need it.
Wait...you're the Florida cop who made that statement, ain't you? :lol::lol:


and yes, I check every approaching vehicle coming from behind...it only takes a flick of the eye.

One or both of these statements may have a slight problem.

Having and skillfully using an eyeglass mounted mirror is essential for safe riding in traffic. This is true for me and, thus, must also be true for you.

Having those eyeglasses ground to compensate for my particular needs is essential for me, so you must also wear them.

Full disclosure- I'm a helmet advocate. But that said, what most people (like journalists writing up a bike crash story) seem to forget is that helmets are secondary injury prevention devices. They don't, and never have, and never will prevent the event (a crash, fall, etc.) from occurring! Yes, a helmet (properly fitted and worn) can be very effective in preventing a traumatic brain injury. But what is the root case of that? The crash itself, and the chain of events and actions leading up to it.

Chip is 100% correct- situational awareness and visibility trump helmet use. However, I'd add that safe riding behavior (not blowing through stop signs and red lights, staying off sidewalks, not hitting 30mph on MUPs, not wearing headphones, etc., etc., etc.) is equally important.

what most people (like journalists writing up a bike crash story) seem to forget is that helmets are secondary injury prevention devices.

Journalists who aren't bicyclists don't think about helmets at all except to include them as a bullet in their story. I emailed a journalist the other day with the same question and her response was that it was policy to mention the use of safety equipment as a matter of public education. The issue that ticked me off, and she apparently regretted putting the helmet mention in her story later, was a bicyclist who apparently committed suicide by train. A matter in my opinion where the victim wearing a helmet would have been largely irrelevant.

http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=588601

Full disclosure- I'm a helmet advocate. But that said, what most people (like journalists writing up a bike crash story) seem to forget is that helmets are secondary injury prevention devices. They don't, and never have, and never will prevent the event (a crash, fall, etc.) from occurring! Yes, a helmet (properly fitted and worn) can be very effective in preventing a traumatic brain injury. But what is the root case of that? The crash itself, and the chain of events and actions leading up to it.

Chip is 100% correct- situational awareness and visibility trump helmet use. However, I'd add that safe riding behavior (not blowing through stop signs and red lights, staying off sidewalks, not hitting 30mph on MUPs, not wearing headphones, etc., etc., etc.) is equally important.

No doubt...I was just trying to limit the discussion to what was already on the table, lest we confuse some folks with too many variables. ;)

but do you check every car approaching from behind?


Nope, can't. At times traffic is so heavy I wouldn't be watching ahead where I am more likely to encounter trouble.

I glance when I can. I also depend on my sense of hearing.

No doubt...I was just trying to limit the discussion to what was already on the table, lest we confuse some folks with too many variables. ;)

:lol: That can happen in here???

So you actually think that a helmet is more important than visibility and situational awareness...and in your case, the sense to do a basic PM check of your bike before riding it?
You best keep that helmet on at all times...you really need it.
Wait...you're the Florida cop who made that statement, ain't you? :lol::lol:


and yes, I check every approaching vehicle coming from behind...it only takes a flick of the eye.

Now your putting words in my reply. I think a helmet is more important than a mirror. Now I do have a mirror and I do see the cars coming from behind, but I'm not focused on it. If it were to swerve into me I would have almost no warning, and I doubt you would to.

As for a pm check? Ever just get on your bike...no, you would have seen that coming in your mirror.

Florida cop? Location: Central Ma would indicate Massachusetts. You must be a cop hater.

:lol: That can happen in here???

I would not oppose a mandatory helmet law for A&S :thumb:

Now your putting words in my reply. I think a helmet is more important than a mirror. Now I do have a mirror and I do see the cars coming from behind, but I'm not focused on it. If it were to swerve into me I would have almost no warning, and I doubt you would to.

As for a pm check? Ever just get on your bike...no, you would have seen that coming in your mirror.

Florida cop? Location: Central Ma would indicate Massachusetts. You must be a cop hater.

You keep continuing with this fixation on a mirror, rather than on situational awareness and visibility. What part of mirror <> situational awareness did you not understand?

Doing a basic PM check of your bike takes mere seconds...but you don't need to bother with such nonsense, you have a helmet to protect you from your own stupidity!

Yeah, I'm a cop hater...I don't know why I ever became one.
Do you only open your mouth to change feet?

Was the driver a cop????

Was the driver a cop????

No, the cop was a cop

Unfortunately the cops can get much much more stupid that this. So, don't tempt them. But they will anyway, so.
dc

I think a helmet is more important than a mirror. Not by my count. A helmet has only saved me from a concussion once in my commuting since 1982 - that was from a guy changing lanes ahead of me with no signal. The mirror has save me four times from being hit from behind and each of those was at sufficient speed that it would have put me in the hospital or worse, had I not bailed off the road.

You keep continuing with this fixation on a mirror, rather than on situational awareness and visibility. What part of mirror <> situational awareness did you not understand?



You seem to think having good situational awareness means never needing a helmet.

You seem to think having good situational awareness means never needing a helmet.

No, I know that a helmet is not more important than visibility, situational awareness and other factors that I am hesitant to mention because they would obviously confuse you even further. A helmet can only protect you after the fact...the others are proactive and reduce the likelihood that the helmet would have to do its job.

Riddle me this...which would you consider more important to prevent your daughter (if you had a daughter) from becoming pregnant...abstinence, contraception or abortion?

In the context of this thread:
abstinence = not riding a bike at all
contraception = situational awareness, visibility, predictability, following the rules of the road, etc.
abortion = helmets, gloves, body armor, etc.

What part of mirror <> situational awareness did you not understand?


I don't understand the little <> symbol.

Didn't you know that helmets create a force-field that repels wayward motorists?

No. It's been proven that cars will pass closer to someone wearing a helmet than they will to a rider not wearing one.

I don't understand the little <> symbol.

It means "less than or greater than," or in other words, "not equal to."

... how about to the Florida Bicycle Association, who published the FLORIDA BICYCLE LAW ENFORCEMENT GUIDE (http://www.sharetheroad.org/lawenf/LEG604onl.pdf) that seems to contain much of the same guidance cited by Sgt Tochterman?

Bicycle helmets, properly fitted and secured, have
been found effective at reducing the incidence and
severity of head, brain and upper facial injury.

Bottom Line: The officer is merely quoting chapter and verse and "approved statements" from what even most bicycle advocacy groups provide. If you doubt it, go check for yourself. So, how do you fix that?

Chapter and verse doesn't say helmets are effective in collisions with automobiles. People just make that assumption.

Bicycle helmets are made to reduce injuries to children who fall from a bicycle at a slow speed, not to prevent the injuries that can happen to a cyclist when that cyclist has been hit by a car.

To fix this, people have to know about it. Few do.

I don't understand the little <> symbol.

not equal to

not equal to

that would be =/=

<> would actually be less than greater than