Advocacy & Safety - How would you position for this left turn?

This morning I was out on a ride and I approached an intersecion where I wanted to make a left turn. It was a double left turn lane and there was one car already waiting at the red in the right lane.

So, according to the diagram, where is the safest place to pull up to the intersection to wait? I hesitate to use position #1 or #2 because it would force me to NOT be on the right side of the road once I've cleared the intersection. Position #3 just seems dangerous. Position #4 seems reasonable. I choose position #5, behind the car.

What would you have done? Is there a prefered place to be in an intersection such as this.

Fire away!!!


.

Position #4 . . . and would try to make eye-contact with driver.
You want to be on the right side of the road you are turning into. You'd not be in the way of the turning car. You'd still be visible to the car behind you and be able to see what's coming at you from the opposite direction.
Been there, done that.

I'm no expert -- I can only tell you what I personally would have done. I'd have been to the right and a little behind #5 -- exactly in the middle of the driver's rear view field of vision and far enough back to have a chance of making eye contact that way. Puts me smack in the middle of the lane so cars that come up behind me remain behind me until we all start moving again.

I think if I came to the same intersection with no car there, I'd still take the lane... ending up between #3 and #4.

Keep in mind, I'm on a tadpole (see avatar). Passing on the right is more problematic for me than for most.

When I ride to work,(as I did today) I have a turn just like this! I agree 100% with nualle on this one. If the car is already there I would be right behind it. If I get there first I would take the lane and merge to the far right shoulder after crossing the intersection. I have never had a foul word or a close call doing this.
I made the mistake of getting into the left most turn lane the first time through! Egads I ended up going slower than the other lane and having to work my way across the right lane, into faster traffic! :eek:

When I ride to work,(as I did today) I have a turn just like this! I agree 100% with nualle on this one. If the car is already there I would be right behind it. If I get there first I would take the lane and merge to the far right shoulder after crossing the intersection. I have never had a foul word or a close call doing this.
I made the mistake of getting into the left most turn lane the first time through! Egads I ended up going slower than the other lane and having to work my way across the right lane, into faster traffic! :eek:


I go through an intersection like this every day on my way home from work, and my experience mimic uciflylow's to the letter (including the first time mistake of taking the left lane). If car is present, stay right behind it, if you're first, take the lane and keep it through the intersection and end up on the far right (regular) position after making your left turn.

Sverre

Well, most people are agreeing here, but I'll echo samundsen: I do this all the time. Take the lane, center point behind the stopped car, drift to the right as you make
the turn.

I would choose position #6 which you don't have marked. It is just behind the right side of the waiting vehicle.

Personally, I would take position #4 because if there's possible oncoming-traffic attempting to turn right on red, then they're likely to make their turn just as the car has cleared the intersection. Since they can't really see you if you're in #5 or directly behind the car, there's a possibility they may tag you midway through their turn. If you're out front, then you have a greater chance of being visible to oncoming-traffic.

I would take my position directly behind the car. Moving into positon 4 would necessitate passing the car on the right. Cars do not expect to be passed on the right.

Postion #5. This puts in line with traffic, but I'd move off to the right once through the intersection.

I would choose position #6 which you don't have marked. It is just behind the right side of the waiting vehicle.

#5 or even #6 is better. Cars don't expect you to be right next to them, and if they decide to run a bit wide on corner entry or exit, you = owned.

You're a vehicle - act like one, and since you're slow moving traffic, #6 is the ticket.

I'm a cerified League Cycling Instructor (http://www.bikeleague.org/index.cfm) and the best place is marked by the X in the drawing below. Any other location puts you in the wrong lane or a compromising situation.

This morning I was out on a ride and I approached an intersecion where I wanted to make a left turn. It was a double left turn lane and there was one car already waiting at the red in the right lane.

So, according to the diagram, where is the safest place to pull up to the intersection to wait? I hesitate to use position #1 or #2 because it would force me to NOT be on the right side of the road once I've cleared the intersection. Position #3 just seems dangerous. Position #4 seems reasonable. I choose position #5, behind the car.

What would you have done? Is there a prefered place to be in an intersection such as this.

Fire away!!!


.

either turn lane.

That way you are in the turn lane, and people, especially on the other side, will be more prepared for your turn. It also fits well into the equal responsibilities bit. Also if anyone says you have no right outside the bike lane, mentiont the part about as far out as practicable, and mention the above...since drivers will get pissy if you were to try a 3 lane left hand turn...even for cars that's grossly illegal.

I'm a cerified League Cycling Instructor (http://www.bikeleague.org/index.cfm) and the best place is marked by the X in the drawing below. Any other location puts you in the wrong lane or a compromising situation.

Seconded. I, too, am a LCI. 2 would work only if you can ride as fast as the traffic.

I would choose position #6 which you don't have marked. It is just behind the right side of the waiting vehicle.

Position #6. It's a no-brainer.

X indeed marks the spot. RonH will find agreement in both Forester's and Franklin's books, i.e., that the cyclist's normal position is along a motor vehicle's right (left for the British Franklin) tyre track. Positioning yourself behind, instead of alongside, the turning car makes your intentions quite clear.

I frequently contend with a similar intersection, except that the two left turn lanes point to four receiving lanes, one of which is a right-turn-only, and the second of which is a VERY short block from a right-turn-only. In this case, to turn left into the #2 (rightmost through) lane, I take the center or even move toward the left portion of the rightmost left turn lane and watch carefully for cars doing all sorts of weaves and merges. Again, the objective is to position myself unambiguously and to encourage right-turning motorists to end up on my right, rather than on my left, after the turn.

I'm a cerified League Cycling Instructor (http://www.bikeleague.org/index.cfm) and the best place is marked by the X in the drawing below. Any other location puts you in the wrong lane or a compromising situation.

Agreed. You want to be visible in the car's rear view mirror if possible. If you're stopping on an incline give the driver some room for "roll back".

Also if you arrive ahead of a car, I'd recommend (as a previous post) pulling just ahead of #4 and have that front tire just a little over the cross walk line if possible. Allow room for people and other bikes to cross in the cross walk.

I'm a cerified League Cycling Instructor (http://www.bikeleague.org/index.cfm) .

Would you league instructors and seasoned riders please post other tips for left hand turns? Including how to handle left turning traffic that is in the oncoming lane? It could save a life or two. :)

sorry to hijack, but i have a question relating to this.

during busy rush hour traffic, if there's too much congestion to get to the turn lanes, is it ok just to follow the crosswalks and go straight through the intersection, then wait at the corner to make your left across the crosswalk perpendicular to it? or are there laws against cyclists using crosswalks?

or are there laws against cyclists using crosswalks?

Check your local laws. Some allow you to ride on sidewalks and crosswalks and others will require you to dismount and act as a pedestrian.

sorry to hijack, but i have a question relating to this.

during busy rush hour traffic, if there's too much congestion to get to the turn lanes, is it ok just to follow the crosswalks and go straight through the intersection, then wait at the corner to make your left across the crosswalk perpendicular to it? or are there laws against cyclists using crosswalks?

You can do the same thing without resorting to using a crosswalk, which may not be legal in your area. It's called a hook turn here. You do pretty much as you said - continue accross the intersection with the traffic, but stop on the far side and position yourself in the cross traffic and wait for the red light to change and proceed as normal. I'm not sure if I explained that very clearly.

Seconded. I, too, am a LCI. 2 would work only if you can ride as fast as the traffic.

If I'm significantly faster than traffic, is there anything wrong with position 1 or position 2? If I'm preparing to make another left hand turn after this one, is position 1 the correct place to be?

If I'm significantly faster than traffic, is there anything wrong with position 1 or position 2? If I'm preparing to make another left hand turn after this one, is position 1 the correct place to be?

I would think so - only you know the conditions and your ability to deal with them. I'd only be wary of being in a blind spot to the left of the folks in the right turn who may try and merge left so they also can make that second left (sometimes these drivers will accerate hard to get in front of the left turners to their left). But if you are out in front of all turners and fast, then there really is no problem.

Al

If I'm significantly faster than traffic, is there anything wrong with position 1 or position 2? If I'm preparing to make another left hand turn after this one, is position 1 the correct place to be?
There is little difference between 1 & 2, if you are as faster, or faster than traffic. If you have that turn of speed, between 1 & 2 is where you really want to be, firmly controlling the lane. Just watch for oil slicks.

sorry to hijack, but i have a question relating to this.

during busy rush hour traffic, if there's too much congestion to get to the turn lanes, is it ok just to follow the crosswalks and go straight through the intersection, then wait at the corner to make your left across the crosswalk perpendicular to it? or are there laws against cyclists using crosswalks?


In this case, don't use the crosswalk. Ride across the intersection keeping to the right as if you were going through to the bike lane on the other side, this should already have you to the right of the cars continuing on. Slow as you get near the other side and stop where the crosswalk comes off the curb. Turn your bike around as if you were waiting there all along, and start riding when the light turns green. If the light is a short one, go up and push the button, then get back out into the roadway like you would have been all along. Always keep an eye out for any cars turning right, no matter what maneuver you are doing.

I would be in posistion 6 as well.

The "X" is generally the best, whereas position "5" would be better if one lane is for "straight ahead and left turn" and you are not sure that the car ahead is indeed turning left..

I see a few limiting factors that might change my mind:

- traffic too dense or visibility too bad to move left safely, in which case I would do a 2-step left turn;
- riding with new cyclists (my 8 year old, for instance), who still lack some skills.

If the car behind might go straight I would tend to stay in the lane to block them. But, in general I would stay to the right of the lane slightly behind the car - position 6. Ever since I was in my car and got rear-ended while stopped at a light I have been skeptical about putting myself between the car in front of me and the one coming from behind who wants to crush me. A minor impact would throw you pretty hard into the car in front of you. It would be like that car I saw that got rear-ended by a semi and pushed into the semi in front of them at 50 mph. They had to strain him out of his car, which at that point was about two feet long. Not me, I want to be thrown clear.

And I figure the odds are you eventually will be rear-ended.

If the car behind might go straight I would tend to stay in the lane to block them. But, in general I would stay to the right of the lane slightly behind the car - position 6. Ever since I was in my car and got rear-ended while stopped at a light I have been skeptical about putting myself between the car in front of me and the one coming from behind who wants to crush me. A minor impact would throw you pretty hard into the car in front of you. It would be like that car I saw that got rear-ended by a semi and pushed into the semi in front of them at 50 mph. They had to strain him out of his car, which at that point was about two feet long. Not me, I want to be thrown clear.

And I figure the odds are you eventually will be rear-ended.

Position 6 is what I take - generally the position where you are directly behind the exhaust pipe of the car in front of you, yuck.

If I go to the right of the car in the lane (not taking it) - it seems always that the next car behind will come up on my directl left. This bugs me as I do not like performing a turn with cars on my left also turning (or not) On the green light if I let car get ahead, then the car beind them gets on my left. So I always partially take the lane (pos. 6) and hope I don't (and don't think about) getting rear ended.

Al

I guess maybe I'm generally faster through the intersection than most? Or maybe it's because the traffic sees me and thus stays behind until we're through the intersection? I rarely get passed in the middle of the turn and when it does happen, there's plenty of space as I've usually taken a wider arc while most drivers tend to "cut the turn" more. I'm usually in position #4 but slightly ahead. This gives me visibility of all the traffic at the head of the intersection as well as allows oncoming and cross-traffic to see me too. The car in the diagram usually spots me as I'm ahead of them and they're generally watching for cross-traffic even in a protected-turn environment.

The thing about position X is that you're behind the car's right side. Not all cars have a right-side door mirror. And if their inside rear view is blocked by cargo, they won't see you. I find I'm most likely to make thru-the-mirror eye contact with drivers in front of me via their driver's side door mirror (i.e. from position 5). It's also the only mirror all motor vehicles must have. For example, if you're behind a truck or bus without an inside rear-view mirror, you're more likely to be seen in the driver's left-hand mirror than in the right-hand mirror.

In either case, I would not be so far left or right as to imply that another vehicle could pull up next to me. I'd be close enough to center to prevent this, but also be seen in at least one of the mirrors of the vehicle in front. This may mean having to be a ways behind the vehicle ahead, but of course, this would apply even if you were pulling up behind it in another motor vehicle.

Same thing would apply to the 1-2 case. That is, if you're going to go "faster than traffic" (actually, faster than other traffic), then you should be somewhere between 1 and 2, so nobody will pull up next to you.

"Behind the exhaust pipe" is kinda meaningless, as it can be on either the right or left side of any given car.

"Behind the exhaust pipe" is kinda meaningless, as it can be on either the right or left side of any given car.

I did not mean behind the exhaust pipe as a position. I indicated that I mostly take postion 6, which tends to be behind the exhaust pipe - yes some cars have the exhaust on the left, but my experience is that most cars around here have it on the right.

Al

I did not mean behind the exhaust pipe as a position. I indicated that I mostly take postion 6, which tends to be behind the exhaust pipe - yes some cars have the exhaust on the left, but my experience is that most cars around here have it on the right.

Al
Because it's always best to build cars so the exhaust pipe is nearest all cyclists, pedestrians, sidewalk cafes and front porches! Would hate to place it near the center of the road where the drivers must breathe it first. I mean they have their health to think about...

Because it's always best to build cars so the exhaust pipe is nearest all cyclists, pedestrians, sidewalk cafes and front porches! Would hate to place it near the center of the road where the drivers must breathe it first. I mean they have their health to think about...

Porsche Boxter, Mini Coopers, Corvettes and Ferarris among other cars have center mounted exhaust pipes. The problem with routing the exhaust pipes to the center in most car designs is that you generally have to contend with the fuel tank. There are of course ways around this as evidenced by the aforementioned cars but it's still a design consideration that need not be dealt with if you can route to one side or another. Would you rather everyone drive a Hummer where the exhaust exits the hood?

Because it's always best to build cars so the exhaust pipe is nearest all cyclists, pedestrians, sidewalk cafes and front porches! Would hate to place it near the center of the road where the drivers must breathe it first. I mean they have their health to think about...

Speaking of exhaust - one of my bigger annoyances is being passed or behind a vehicle that is buring oil and spewing thick & stinky exhaust. The worst is that it often lingers by the side of the road and after that car passes I need to ride thru it.

Al

No doubt the dumbest question ever. Only with the advocacy and safety folks, i suppose, can this question go on for two pages.......

personally, i approach the car on the left, look at the driver, get directly in front of him, track stand until the light changes, then move to the right as i take off faster than him. This assumes there is traffic in the left lane, otherwise i'd just ride down the middle of that, then wait and move right once the car passed. but then again, i'm a "BAD cyclist"

Actually now that I think about it I would do it "Mentos" style: Bunny hop over the back of the car and ride up over the top, down the windshield, hop off the hood and blow the light while looking back, popping a Mentos in my mouth and smirking like a European. Or would the Mentos guy ride through one open door of the car and out the other?

Would you rather everyone drive a Hummer where the exhaust exits the hood?

I'd rather it exits inside the vehicle. Let 'em suck up their own spew. I mean, it must be harmless stuff, otherwise they'd never allow it into the atmosphere.

But seriously, there must be a better way of dealing with this stuff than simply dumping it out in public. At the very least there should be some sort of cylonic filtration to remove the heavier particles for later, more appropriate disposal.

But seriously, there must be a better way of dealing with this stuff than simply dumping it out in public. At the very least there should be some sort of cylonic filtration to remove the heavier particles for later, more appropriate disposal.

To be fair, lots of things emit toxic fumes. Hell, us cyclists as humans emit toxic fumes such as carbon dioxide. And I know I emit other toxic fumes depending on what I eat. :D But I agree with you, engine emissions can be cleaned up. I think Honda proved that to an extent. And eliminating the reciprocating ICE as we know it today should really be the end-goal. I more than once heard it said that were engineers faced with the same technological requirements today given a clean slate and asked to design a powerplant of some sort, the reciprocating engine would not come to be. But now how about we move this discussion to another thread since I think we're grossly off-topic?

I don't claim to be right, and I like Smaug's answer of picking the rightmost turn lane behind the car, but I think I'd carve out a new position, also behind the car, but on it's right rear wheel.

A lot depends on where you want to be after turning. I might take the inside turn lane if I wanted to be in that lane after making the turn. But that's a different thing.

No doubt the dumbest question ever. Only with the advocacy and safety folks, i suppose, can this question go on for two pages.......

personally, i approach the car on the left, look at the driver, get directly in front of him, track stand until the light changes, then move to the right as i take off faster than him. This assumes there is traffic in the left lane, otherwise i'd just ride down the middle of that, then wait and move right once the car passed. but then again, i'm a "BAD cyclist"


Yeah... you go ahead and do this... I'll be seeing you in my ER when you get nailed by a car someday. Maybe if you ask politely, all of us safety and advocacy geeks will sign your casts.

You may think I posted the "dumbest question ever" but seeing as there has been a nice healty discussion about it, and this IS an Advocacy and SAFETY forum your opinion seems to be in the minority... Also seeing as we have gotten a variety of answers, the solution isn't quite as obvious to some of us degenerate morons who aren't blessed with your stunning wisdom and cycling prowess. Well gosh golly, maybe we can just all post another "why-should-I-wear-a-helmet" thread, or the ever popular "some-dude-in-an-SUV-almost-ran-me-over-today". Didn't your mother ever teach you that good to follow rule in life, "If you don't have anything nice to say... shut the f@ck up!"?

have a nice day!

/rant. man, it's been a long day and I'm a little testy right now. growl.

Yeah... you go ahead and do this... I'll be seeing you in my ER when you get nailed by a car someday. Maybe if you ask politely, all of us safety and advocacy geeks will sign your casts.

/rant. man, it's been a long day and I'm a little testy right now. growl.

Oh would you? sign my cast i mean!! and you can draw a cool dragon with a missing scale on his chest, and maybe a little hobbit burglar'ing his treasures...;)

I'd be testy too if i had to ask where to put my bike at every red light. My comments were directed at the general (ludicriousness? lucridity? ahh ridiculousness), in my mind, of trying to break down what should be an enjoyable, organic experience of constant one-ness with the traffic, flowing with it and adappting to changes, into a science of "if car A is in lane 1, and car B is in lane 2 3m behind, and i want to go left and into the right lane, where should i be..." If you're looking for the safest place to be on your bike it's "NOT IN TRAFFIC" (note the emphasis). Just ride where you're comfortable. I'm amazed people could talk about it for this long.

Troll alert.

Actually now that I think about it I would do it "Mentos" style: Bunny hop over the back of the car and ride up over the top, down the windshield, hop off the hood and blow the light while looking back, popping a Mentos in my mouth and smirking like a European. Or would the Mentos guy ride through one open door of the car and out the other?
I can do that.

:D

personally, i approach the car on the left, look at the driver, get directly in front of him, track stand until the light changes, then move to the right as i take off faster than him.
I suppose you also maintain a 45 mph cruising speed as traffic flows neatly behind you.

I'm a cerified League Cycling Instructor (http://www.bikeleague.org/index.cfm) and the best place is marked by the X in the drawing below. Any other location puts you in the wrong lane or a compromising situation.

What do you have to pass a test on the internet, to get certified?

What do you have to pass a test on the internet, to get certified?
No, he went through a LCI seminar, and proved, by both exam and practical demonstration, that he is worthy of certification by the League of American Bicyclists.
As did I.

http://www.bikeleague.org/educenter/education.htm