Road Cycling - How does OLN figure...

...that Greg LeMond is #3 on the "Countdown of Courage" while Lance is only #6?!?!?!?!?!?! Ug. Idiots! Somehow, a hunting accident accident and coming back to win two TdF's just doesn't compare to having almost terminal cancer and coming back to win 6 in a row. Not to mention that Greg's recent stance on Lance and doping wasn't courageous, just bitter :mad: (And yes, his recent comments are coloring my take on this, but even if he had remained an honorable cyclist recently, I'd still place Lance above Greg...)

maybe greg was on the selection panel!! lol :p he can be sour grapes all he wants but he is no armstrong so i don't let him bother me. nor should anyone else imo.

Uh. I hate to tell you this but comparisons like is the TDF harder than the Ironman, is Lance Armstrong a greater cyclist than Eddie Mercx, comparing Lance to LeMond is all just a matter of opinion. Everybody is entitied to form their own opinion based on whatever reasoning they choose to use. None of it matters.

Lance had the support of his team each year of his wins. Lemond did not have team support for his first win, and then had a very weak team for his second win. He had to win his first two Tours by himself. He did get help in '86 from other American riders, but really had to hustle to win '89. I do recall seeing 7-11 doing tempo for Lemond in '86.

I think,if i'm right that LA has finished all the TDF's he's been in,10 is it. That counts for something. Lemonds problem if he had a week team. I belive LA is the best when it comes to the TDF.

part of it is that the doctors told Greg to never push himself again, that riding the TdF would probably kill him. I mean, he did still have 30 (out of the 60) shotgun pellets still in his body. Plus, they made the Courage show before Greg went mental with his Lance comments, so that can't count against the show.

I think,if i'm right that LA has finished all the TDF's he's been in,10 is it. That counts for something. Lemonds problem if he had a week team. I belive LA is the best when it comes to the TDF.


Lance dropped out of 3 TdFs, the last tour he dropped out of in 1996 (because he was sick... he didn't know about his cancer yet).

Carl, you really need to get up to speed on cycling history, there is a lot of history before Lance. I can understand why LeMond would rank higher than Lance, he was much closer to death than Lance (what a whacky way to compare them), had a team in 89 that was worse than what Lance had in 99. And his comeback to win the whole event was MUCH more dramatic than what Lance did in 99. Let alone LeMond's cycling past, he was out there racing a lot more, he brought the game to Hinault (a 4/5 time winner), etc.

Andrew

Ajay, I DO know there were cyclists before Lance :D As for being "closer to death" than Lance (yes, it is a wacky way to compare them), I'd say a 20% chance to live don't get much closer. I HAD forgotten about the team aspect though, so I can see that as a factor. OTOH, LeMond had won a TdF BEFORE the accident, so he had that taste. lance didn't even know if he'd be competitive in the daily stages. LeMond had established himself before his accident, whereas Lance had not (at least, not in such a black & white way). LeMond had to tough out the crowds, but so did Lance (remember tacks on the road?). I just don't feel that what LeMond did was as *courageous* as Lance, aside from the fact the Doctors said not to (which I guess does take some guts to do). Of course LeMond's recent comments color my opinion, but I just honestly don't feel like his comeback was as incredible/courageous as Lance's (especially given the fact that Lance did 6). I dunno. Lance just seems to embody courage, whereas LeMond has basically become a bitter "old" man full of "I could have"s. Courage is congratulating Lance on #6, not saying he couldn't have done it without doping... Of course, that was then and this is now. Still, Lance's comeback just seems to have taken more personal courage than I feel leMond's did. LeMond = 30 shotgun pellets in his lungs. Armstrong = 1 nut and titatnium screws in his head. Hmmmm. I think fighting the battle with cancer will always take more courage than surviving just about any other kind of injury, especially because of the mental impact cancer has. A gunshot wound is an external incident that can be faced and possibly even blamed on another. Cancer is an internal battle of your body against itself. The latter will always take more IMHO...

And on a side note: just because someone is a huge Lance fan, it doesn't mean they're jumping on the bandwagon. I followed LeMond and Indurain as a kid. May not have had the "from the saddle" perspective I do with Lance, but I ain't a "you mean there was a TdF before Lance?" newbie either...

As for being "closer to death" than Lance (yes, it is a wacky way to compare them), I'd say a 20% chance to live don't get much closer.

LeMond was less than an hour away from dying. He lost a kidney, had a collapsed lung. Even to this day he has 30+ shotgun pellets in his body, some of which are still embedded in his heart. So on top of that massive shock to his body he also had knee surgery and had his appendix removed.



I HAD forgotten about the team aspect though, so I can see that as a factor. OTOH, LeMond had won a TdF BEFORE the accident, so he had that taste. lance didn't even know if he'd be competitive in the daily stages.

Lance was a VERY strong "one-day" competitor before cancer. He won the world championship (2nd place was Indurain of all people), he had a couple/few TdF stage wins (I believe he still holds the record for the youngest stage winner), a couple of the bigger/tougher classics notched in his win belt as well.



LeMond had established himself before his accident, whereas Lance had not (at least, not in such a black & white way). LeMond had to tough out the crowds, but so did Lance (remember tacks on the road?).

Lance hadn't established himself? Why did Cofidis give him a multi-million dollar contract? So yes, LeMond had already won the TdF once, but they were hardly miles apart.



I just don't feel that what LeMond did was as *courageous* as Lance, aside from the fact the Doctors said not to (which I guess does take some guts to do).

LeMond came back with no expectation of winning the Tour, his doctors never thought he'd do it, neither did anybody else in the world. Lance's entire chemo treatment plan was put together to allow him to come back to cycling. In 1998 he started training to win the Tour de France.

They are both monumental challenges, considering the support LeMond had for his "comeback" (hell even before his accident) I'd say he had it a little rougher than Lance.



Lance just seems to embody courage, whereas LeMond has basically become a bitter "old" man full of "I could have"s.

History always works against people. Can you sit here and tell me that you know for sure that Lance won't be making the same type of comments 20 years from now when some new American kid is re-writing all the records Lance has broken? Because if you asked people that same question about LeMond years ago nobody would have thought he'd make the kind of comments he is making today.



Still, Lance's comeback just seems to have taken more personal courage than I feel leMond's did. LeMond = 30 shotgun pellets in his lungs. Armstrong = 1 nut and titatnium screws in his head. Hmmmm. I think fighting the battle with cancer will always take more courage than surviving just about any other kind of injury, especially because of the mental impact cancer has. A gunshot wound is an external incident that can be faced and possibly even blamed on another. Cancer is an internal battle of your body against itself. The latter will always take more IMHO...

Without having experienced either I couldn't tell you. And we can sit here and speculate all day long about which had it worse when it comes to bike racing (obviously surviving cancer in itself is more of an achievement, but we're not just talking about that, we're talking how their "incidents" have effected their professional lives).

Andrew

I have to say, this is a silly discussion. Would you rather have brain surgery and chemo or a shotgun blast to the chest? Hard to choose isn't it? Just be glad that the two american cyclists were on the radar enough to make it onto a list. Let's talk about the real courage on that list, like the girl at number one. She was attacked by a shark, had her arm ripped off and had the presence and soul necessary to warn her friends to get away that there was a shark, I think I would have been screaming for them to help me. Then she went back into those waters to compete again. Dang! That's freakin courage. I don't think Lance had to worry about getting cancer again from riding in the Tour, and I hope that Greg didn't run the risk of getting shot by a shotgun by riding in the tour. This girl had to know the risk of another shark attack. She is incredible.

Good points Ajay. I'll take exception with you on one point tho: though Armstrong was a solid racer before the cancer and had a multi-million dollar contract, as far as the TdF is concerned that IS light-years away from winning it. Look at all the guys who have $$$ contracts (Tyler Hamilston springs to mind) and never reall quite make it. They do well, but just don't get the podium and definitely don't get the win. Once you do something, you know you can do it again. So in that respect, I would say LeMond had it mentally "easier" when he did his comeback TdF. But yeah, he DEFINTELY didn't have the support Lance does.

As for doping, I don't think Lance will act like LeMond 20 yers from now. Why? because Lance has had to go through the whole doping thing for 6 years. if I remember correctly, that was one thing LeMond DIDN'T have to fight so much. He didn't have people saying his abilities were simply the result of drugs. That's a HUGE blow to one's morality and it takes a big man to overcome it. I think that more than counters LeMond's battle against general disdain for Americans when he was racing...

Anyway, just let me go on record saying I think LeMond and Lance should have been switched in the Countdown. Just my $.02 :D Thanks for some solid points Ajay...

PS Did they have that guy who sawed his arm off after he got trapped in the mountains about a year ago? THat's freakin' courage x 100! He probably wasn't on the list 'cause they knew if they put him on, no one else would come close!

And Crack, Lance DID have to worry about cancer coming back... for 5 years. You don't get a clean bill of health until then...

And Crack, Lance DID have to worry about cancer coming back... for 5 years. You don't get a clean bill of health until then...

Right, but he had to worry about that whether he got back on the bike or not, not as a direct result of riding the bike. That girl didn't have to sit around and worry about getting bit by a shark if she never got back in the water. That's the difference I was trying to point out.

i'm with carl on this one. not nearly as familiar as y'all with the ins and outs, but cancer w/ 6 wins beats gunshot w/ 2 wins any day in my book - and if it's a ridiculous discussion we're not the first ones having it since they made that show based on analysis just like this. i mean it's the show that thinks ranking courage makes sense (which it doesn't really).

if you forced me to choose between the two ordeals i think i'd have to choose the shotgun thing - i mean _cancer ya know! it's frickin _cancer!! if there's one word that's got all the stopping power of death and hopelessness behind it it's cancer.

not to take anything away from the cycling specific info brought up here - glad i read the thread for all that knowledge of where things were and where they are now.

i'm with carl on this one. not nearly as familiar as y'all with the ins and outs, but cancer w/ 6 wins beats gunshot w/ 2 wins any day in my book - and if it's a ridiculous discussion we're not the first ones having it since they made that show based on analysis just like this. i mean it's the show that thinks ranking courage makes sense (which it doesn't really).

if you forced me to choose between the two ordeals i think i'd have to choose the shotgun thing - i mean _cancer ya know! it's frickin _cancer!! if there's one word that's got all the stopping power of death and hopelessness behind it it's cancer.

not to take anything away from the cycling specific info brought up here - glad i read the thread for all that knowledge of where things were and where they are now.

But how about gunshot injury with 3 TDF wins. Does that change your mind? That's how many LeMond has. Of course it's a subjective argument, just like who's the all time greatest cyclist. I didn't see the show, but I'm sure all of the feats are impressive.

I believe that he had two TDF wins after he was shot.

That girl didn't have to sit around and worry about getting bit by a shark if she never got back in the water. That's the difference I was trying to point out. Gotcha.

Laggard: Right. I assume hollow meant the LoMond had three overall and perhaps misunderstood what Boze meant :)