Bicycle Mechanics - Wheelbuilders: how many of you check spoke tension by hand?

Just wanted to know how many people actually use spoke tensiometers/tension meters when building their wheels. Or by contrast, how many tension by hand. Thanks.

Or pluck, whatever it is you do.

We already had this flame fest a week ago. No need to start it again.

I tension by hand. My wheels hold up just fine.

Oops sorry.

I tension by hand and ear for most conventional wheels and I also use a tension gauge to double check my work or when I am building unconventional wheels (radials).

If I don't have a tension gauge at hand when I am building a conventional wheel I don't fret it... the last wheel I built was for my friend's touring bike and I finished the build the night before he left while sucking back a few cold one's on my patio.

6000 km of loaded touring later and the wheel is still true to within 5/1000 and it was built using the bike's fork as my truing stand.

I have a set of mtb wheels that are rolling around under my 240 pound friend and these wheels have never needed to see a spoke wrench... I used the tension gauge and had these dialled in to a tolerance of < 2/1000 and they have not changed.

Getting even / high tension is much more important that getting maximum tension in a wheel and I usually build just below the advised maximum (90% to allow for any adjustments)... if the spokes are so tight that you are rounding off the nipples or destroying the rim you are doing it wrong.

I encourage my customers to bring their wheels back for a free inspection as I like to inspect my work but very few do as they tell me their wheels remain as perfect as they were when they were first built.

I tension by hand, and from time to time use a tension meter to "calibrate" my fingers, especially when doing unusual builds with spokes or rims I'm less familiar with.

Unlike many others I don't use tension meters to compare tension in various spokes within the wheel, but only to sample tension to get an idea of overall tension. I ensure even tension by the methodology of my building & tightening procedure, and spot the occasional oddly tensioned spoke by hands, eyes and ears.

im sure, not to discredit anyone who builds wheels on here, that everyone will say that they do. who would come into this thread and say that they don't and expect business.

I always use a tensiometer. I only build occasionly and feel that this is the best way to get a constant build.

im sure, not to discredit anyone who builds wheels on here, that everyone will say that they do. who would come into this thread and say that they don't and expect business.

I think you might be wrong here. Many top wheel builders do not use tension meters, or use them as I do, as a cross check of their sense of feel. Some of those take pride on their non-reliance on tension meters. A skilled builder will produce an evenly tensioned wheel the same way top builders always have, using reliable methodology coupled with good feel, born of experience.

It's skill, not better tools that makes for the best wheels.

I have built countless wheels. Not only do I not use a tension meter, I haven't even seen one in the flesh (or metal). I don't pluck spokes for sound, either.

The wheels I build are durable. I once built a wheel for a tandem that took a long tour with heavy luggage. The customer came back after the tour and told me that his wheel was still as straight as an arrow. On all other tours he took, he destroyed the wheel, every time.

Hmm, surely you use some sort of reference to build your wheels upon?

I gauge overall tension by feel and relative tension by sound. I've been doing it for five decades and it hasn't let me down yet.

Hmm, surely you use some sort of reference to build your wheels upon?

Oh yeah, I have calibrated fingers.

Oh yeah, I have calibrated fingers.
My knuckles crack at the correct torque.

I gauge overall tension by feel and relative tension by sound. I've been doing it for five decades and it hasn't let me down yet.

Are you the same Mike T. that created that wheelbuilding article?

Are you the same Mike T. that created that wheelbuilding article?

That would be me. (http://miketechinfo.com/new-tech-wheels-tires.htm) I'm guilty of motivating many people to attempt to build their first wheel. Almost all of them do it with the bare minimum of equipment too.

That would be me. (http://miketechinfo.com/new-tech-wheels-tires.htm) I'm guilty of motivating many people to attempt to build their first wheel. Almost all of them do it with the bare minimum of equipment too.

Yes let's just pass on gospel and bad technique and never actually use tools designed to help you build better wheels. You think you can commit to memory the proper spoke tension for different size spokes, round, bladed and ellipitical? And then further divide that into recommended spoke tension for different rims and 'exotic' OEM wheelsets.

You do a disservice to future wheelbuilders by not even mentioning a tool that helps build better wheels, faster, more accurately and more consistently. When you can match my DT tensionmeter in accuracy for every single spoke on a wheel with your hand or by 'plucking', i'll eat my words.

Get with the times grandpa, your techniques are deprecated and so is your knowledge and you'll never be a better wheelbuilder with the attitude portrayed in your article. Good mechanics evolve with the times. You seem to be stuck in the good ole days.

I'm not going to argue or even discuss with you as I've seen your posts before. You're well known around here. You must be a very bitter person. Who cares what you think.

I'm not going to argue or even discuss with you as I've seen your posts before. You're well known around here. You must be a very bitter person. Who cares what you think.

Whom indeed? Most of the regular bike-wrenches around here that make up the inner-core of these forums. That would be who cares. You may not like his personality, but his information is top-notch most of the time. And I happen to agree that using a spoke tension-meter, which today are available for pretty cheap, will result in better-built wheels for those just starting out.

I used to tension by hand and never had a problem building conventional builds, but after I started getting into lower spoke counts and thinner spokes, a tensiometer's need became evident.

I use one, believe they are very helpful but not essential. I think less experienced people have more to gain by using a tension meter by avoiding mistakes that experienced builders would not make.

Al

I'm not going to argue or even discuss with you as I've seen your posts before. You're well known around here. You must be a very bitter person. Who cares what you think.

"Arguments are to be avoided; they are always vulgar and often convincing."
Oscar Wilde

I’ll throw my .02 in here. You can build a wheel that is true and pluck & listen to the sound as your only variable for tension. However, even crappy built wheels will remain true under normal use, it is long term use that is subject to spoke fatigue and the uneven tension eventually leads to spoke breakage, then your problems just begin.

If you want to build a reliable, true wheel with even spoke tension, you have to use a tension meter, period. The tension meter is not just used to make sure you have achieved proper tension, it is also for balancing the tension as well, something many simply ignore.

Whom indeed? Most of the regular bike-wrenches around here that make up the inner-core of these forums. That would be who cares. You may not like his personality, but his information is top-notch most of the time. And I happen to agree that using a spoke tension-meter, which today are available for pretty cheap, will result in better-built wheels for those just starting out.

+1
:popcorn
Oh, and since this could be another long one, I also brought popcorn for you and Operator.
:popcorn:popcorn

Mostly by hand...

Occasionally for configurations I haven't done for awhile - ie. 4X - I'll yank out the tension meter.

Carbon and radial - I prefer to play it safe and use the tool as well.

And if I build 3-4 of the same wheel in a row...I'll pull the tool out just to test my consistency.

=8-)

you're free to choose what you want to use after you've tried all options :innocent:

I have good hearing, but poor tone comprehension, so I build better wheels with a tension meter where I can see my values rather than hear them.

Just as important as getting the spoke tension right is seating the spokes at the flange. Fatigue failure of the spokes at the bend is caused by not bending the spokes into good alignment. For a beginning wheel builder I think that is an important item which is overlooked in the spoke tensiometer argument.

when I built wheels 25-30 yrs ago with ss and cadmium plated spokes it was all without tensionmeters. Wheels were damaged in crashes before they got out of true or spokes broke.

I’ll throw my .02 in here. You can build a wheel that is true and pluck & listen to the sound as your only variable for tension. However, even crappy built wheels will remain true under normal use, it is long term use that is subject to spoke fatigue and the uneven tension eventually leads to spoke breakage, then your problems just begin.

Probably true, but I find that the spokes in wheels built without perfectly even tension will still last through at least a few rim changes (due to wear on the brake surface). And by the time the hub needs replacing as well I'm willing to spring for new spokes whether they really need to be replaced or not.

Sometimes it doesn't need to be any better than 'good enough.'

Just as important as getting the spoke tension right is seating the spokes at the flange. Fatigue failure of the spokes at the bend is caused by not bending the spokes into good alignment. For a beginning wheel builder I think that is an important item which is overlooked in the spoke tensiometer argument.

that's part of the stress relieving process.

I own one and I use it whenever I build wheels at home.

I've worked in a couple of bike shops that didn't have one available. When I built wheels there I didn't use one and I didn't worry about it. For generations before inexpensive tensiometers came into common use people built perfectly adequate bicycle wheels without using one.

I love my FSA one that was designed by Jobst Brandt - author of the famous: "The Bicycle Wheel" book.


http://i424.photobucket.com/albums/pp323/nagognog/IMG_0367.jpg

I am not a mechanic and the only work I do is for myself. I use a Park tensionmetre. I got mine for $55, which I consider to be extremely cheap price to pay for reliable wheels when on tour.

I tension my spokes by hand and they hold up well. I suppose I could make them a little stronger by obsessing over them with a tension meter, but IMHO they are much more likely to die of misadventure than from uneven spoke tension.

If you want to build a reliable, true wheel with even spoke tension, you have to use a tension meter, period. The tension meter is not just used to make sure you have achieved proper tension, it is also for balancing the tension as well, something many simply ignore.
I still regularly use a set of wheels I built in 1978 without using a tensiometer. It's probably been over a decade since they've even been touched by a spoke wrench, and even that was just a minor tweak after a pothole or something.

I'm seeing an old school new school conflict here.

I'm seeing an old school new school conflict here.

You'll see a lot in a thread like this one Scrotze:


- Crutch Dependent versus Crutch Independent
- Anal versus Laid Back
- Detailed versus RunOnce (Take that Microsoft...)
- Tie versus Tie-Dyed

...and the worse...

- Ridden versus UnRidden

As many of use wheelbuilders have already noted ad-nauseum...we are all pretty much somewhere in a spectrum...

But then again...that's boring...there's always someone who wants popcorn.

=8-)

the world is no fun without some conflict :innocent:

Never used a tension meter since my first build. The rims (Open Pros) that I had started with is about 10 years old and have not been trued much since I built them. My second pair of rims (Velocity Aeroheads) has 9 years on them and are radial laced; which I hardly ever have to true much; I have replaced at least three spokes in those 9 years but that's about it. The only thing I use to build my wheels is a truing stand, spoke wrench, and the brake pads for fine adjustments. I have built about 9 rims by now and don't really find a need for a tension meter. But I would say that in the beginning I would always recheck my build by test riding them before I would use them regularly.

If you learned building by an old wheelbuilder back before tension-meters were commonly available - go right ahead and continue without. As long as your wheels since back then don't fail.

If you are starting out today, with tension-meters common and available - take advantage of them. They will help you achieve uniform-tension and accuracy that you can verify.

I learned to build wheels in 1984 - and my teacher had me use a Hozan tension-meter back then. Worked great for me. Seems to me it's like having a bottle-cap remover, and proving your tough by opening bottles with your teeth to prove something or other. It may well work fine without the cap-remover. But WHY??

I have a park tension meter, I use it to keep my wheels all correctly tensioned. I probably do not need it though, was one of those peace of mind purchases back when I had my Specialized Allez that had a radially spoked front wheel. ALL my wheels now are 3x 32h or 36h wheels, where super even tension is not as critical.

I am working on setting up a dial indicator to my current truing stand (spin doctor) So I can really get my wheels true ;)

Want to save up and build some better wheels for my Hybrid. I think I may need to use MTB hubs, I havnt looked that far into it, yet. In that case I will use some shimano LX hubs, and velocity deep-v rims, and give wheelbuilding a shot. Heck, I can polish sub-micron asphere optics...wheelbuilding cant be that hard :)

With those dial-indicators, you'll be truing wheels to, like, 1/8th-wave equivalencies regards true. It's quite easy, too. Once you get used to it.

Have fun!

Don't get me wrong. I'm not at all opposed to the meter. I just haven't used one yet.

I've rebuilt quite a few wheels now after various failures (derailler into spokes, cheap aluminum nipples failing apart, big guy breaking 8 NDS spokes hopping off a curb) and built a few wheels from scratch. My hands are pretty well calibrated for torque especially on smaller fasteners yet I always use a torque wrench anyway. Likewise, while I could probably get the feel of a perfectly tensioned spoke (at least a particular size), I see no reason to sweat it out when I can easily throw a tensionmeter on the spoke and have a much better idea of where I am tension-wise.

Aluminum nipples seem like a really stupid idea to me, cheap or expensive.

Aluminum nipples seem like a really stupid idea to me, cheap or expensive.

On a bike used a lot near the ocean, they are a very stupid idea from experience. They came stock on the Alex wheelset that came on my first road bike (Specialized Sequoia). I had retired the wheelset after the nipple failures on the rear wheel but when I decided to sell the bike, I didn't want to give up the Mavic wheels I replaced the originals with. I rebuilt the rear wheel using brass nipples leaving the front as is and it's been fine under a much heavier rider than myself for the past year.

However, I just built a new wheelset for my commuter using aluminum nipples. I'm fully prepared to replace them all if I run into problems but I don't think they'll be an issue. The whole wheelset is a bit of an experiment in how lightweight of a wheelset can stand up to daily commuting use (1450 grams, 32 spoke/ 3 cross front and rear, disc front hub, offset rims front and rear). Only 400 miles so far but no complaints yet.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not at all opposed to the meter. I just haven't used one yet.
Nor am I. A tensiometer is a useful tool for building wheels, not a strict requirement (except for low spoke count wheels). Unless you're planning on building a lot of wheels, or low spoke count wheels, a tensiometer is a extravagance you can skip.

I got one of the first Park tensionmeters when they came out. I read about it on this forum, and told Mike Garcia to send me one as soon as he could get his hands on it.

I use it as a check during final truing. For the most part it just confirms what I already know, but on occassion it surprises me. I don't see anything wrong with getting a confirmation from a reliable tool.

Human perception is unreliable. Do any of you work out? Do you notice how sometimes that 35lb dumbell is a lot heavier than it used to be? I guarantee you it wasn't the dumbell that changed.

I got one of the first Park tensionmeters when they came out. I read about it on this forum, and told Mike Garcia to send me one as soon as he could get his hands on it.

I use it as a check during final truing. For the most part it just confirms what I already know, but on occassion it surprises me. I don't see anything wrong with getting a confirmation from a reliable tool.

Human perception is unreliable. Do any of you work out? Do you notice how sometimes that 35lb dumbell is a lot heavier than it used to be? I guarantee you it wasn't the dumbell that changed.

Agreed! Sometimes I have had my wheels perfectly straight after truing them (well, as straight as the low end rims get) and when I check tension, I have found a few spokes to be way too loose. Mostly on radially spoked wheels though. They are good to have, just for an actual data point. Same thing with having a torque wrench to fasten bolts with, They might not be needed but are surely good to ensure proper torque.