Advocacy & Safety - City pushes reflectors

The following transpired during the City of Miami-sponsored "Bike Miami Days (http://bikemiamiblog.wordpress.com/)." Cyclists were approached by event organizers and told the following:

"You don't have reflectors. You need reflectors on your bike."

The following reflective decal was subsequently handed out:
http://www.jaysmarine.com/bikemiami_sticker.jpg

The decal aside, was this comment about reflectors:

#1: An advocacy-intended lead-in? (Hardly. How about lights?)

#2: Tongue-in-cheek? (If it was a joke, I call poor taste)

#3: Careless PR, even though the person handing out the decals happens to be second in command to the head honcho of bicycling affairs in the city, and should understand what the ramifications are of this statement? (Bingo!)

You decide. Have fun.

-Kurt

Hey... where do I get one of those stickers? :D Would be perfect for a little project I'm working up.

Hey... where do I get one of those stickers? :D Would be perfect for a little project I'm working up.

PM me and it'll be off in an envelope to you. Pretty beat up from being in my pocket though.

That said, you're better off contacting the organizers of Bike Miami through their Contact form: http://bikemiamiblog.wordpress.com/contact/

Turnout was marginal, and I'm almost certain they'll be left with a literal box full from which they'd probably be willing to send you some - especially as this was the final Bike Miami Days event.

-Kurt

Was this:
#1: An advocacy-intended lead-in? (Hardly)
#2: Tongue-in-cheek? (Poor taste)
#3: Careless POB-inspired PR? (Bingo!)

What is POB?




POB Point of Beginning (land surveying)
POB Post Office Box
POB Patrick O'Brian (author)
POB Place Of Birth
POB Professional Oversight Board (UK FRC)
POB Public Oversight Board
POB Paris Opera Ballet
POB Persons On Board
POB Pension Obligation Bonds
POB Professional Office Building
POB Personnel on Board
POB Plastic Ono Band (John Lennon album)
POB Physician Office Building
POB Prevention of Blindness
POB Point Of Banking
POB Point of Business (service management system)
POB Principles Of Business
POB Pilot on Board
POB Psychological Operations Battalion
POB Passenger on Board
POB Paper-Over-Board (type of book binding)
POB Public Order Battalion (Iraq)
POB Portable Oxygen Bottle (aerospace)
POB Pop Off Boys (band)
POB Pat on Back
POB Parade Of Bands
POB Point of Breaking (applied solid mechanics)
POB Product of Boredom (webcomic)
POB Patrol Observation Base
POB Phemas Of Beijing Company
POB Protected Outlet Box
POB Publication Orthopédique Biomécanique
POB Point of Blame
POB Persistent Object Backend/Base
POB Percentage of Base

POB

Spelled Pronunciation: pur-suhn awn bahyk

–noun
1. Person On Bike / People On Bike / Pedestrian On a Bike. "POBs see themselves as a person just trying to get from point A to point B and it’s too far for them to walk. They are often focused only on their destination, oblivious to everything else around them."

Origin:
2007, Americanism; attributable to Dave Moulton: http://davesbikeblog.blogspot.com/2007/10/cyclists-and-pobs.html

-Kurt

POB

Spelled Pronunciation: pur-suhn awn bahyk

–noun
1. Person On Bike / People On Bike / Pedestrian On a Bike. "POBs see themselves as a person just trying to get from point A to point B and it’s too far for them to walk. They are often focused only on their destination, oblivious to everything else around them."

Origin:
2007, Americanism; attributable to Dave Moulton: http://davesbikeblog.blogspot.com/2007/10/cyclists-and-pobs.html

-Kurt

I could be wrong, but your definition sounds a little snotty.

I could be wrong, but your definition sounds a little snotty.

It isn't my definition. Complain to the A&S members that already adopted the term: http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=434247&highlight=POB for it's inaugural thread.

So much for putting references down.

-Kurt

It isn't my definition. Complain to the A&S members that already adopted the term: http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=434247&highlight=POB for it's inaugural thread.

So much for putting references down.

-Kurt

Ah, it's been adopted by A&S. But I still don't get what POB has to do with the decal reflectors. Is the problem that the bike depicted on the decal is not stylish enough?

Ah, it's been adopted by A&S. But I still don't get what POB has to do with the decal reflectors. Is the problem that the bike depicted on the decal is not stylish enough?

No, I'm referring to the verbal lead-in used by the event organizer.

-Kurt

There must be a point here somewhere, right?

They can have the reflectors I've ripped off every bike I own.

No, I'm referring to the verbal lead-in used by the event organizer.

-Kurt

Well, I guess you're dribbling out your point over a series of brief, cryptic texts, rather than stating it clearly in the first post. That's an interesting approach. Maybe you're building suspense?

So what is your objection to the organizer's verbal lead-in?

I could be wrong, but your definition sounds a little snotty.

You aren't wrong.

You aren't wrong.

Tell it to Dave Moulton and the rest of A&S.

-Kurt

Can I actually answer the original question? ;)

Looks mostly like publicity to me. It's nice that it's reflective, but a sticker like that is most likely going to be put on the side of a tube, whereas real reflectivity is most useful on the back, which mostly lacks a space large enough for that sticker, except maybe on a backpack. But then, rear reflectors are supposed to be red or amber, so it doesn't actually meet the legal requirement for reflectors in most states anyway. (Don't know about Florida, too lazy to look it up.) So, it sounds like mostly a clever comment someone thought up to get people to take them.

Tell it to Dave Moulton and the rest of A&S.

-Kurt

hey dave, and the rest of you A&Sholes -
your definition is snotty.

-Darth_Firebolt

hey dave, and the rest of you A&Sholes -
your definition is snotty.

-Darth_Firebolt

wow, you stopped lurking just to post this little gem?

:rolleyes:

Nothing wrong with the OP.

Seems it is the complainers that have no point and nothing of value to add.

Nothing wrong with the OP.

Seems it is the complainers that have no point and nothing of value to add.

Well I plain didn't understand the OP at first, and when I finally did grasp it (or at least I think I grasp it), it seemed snobby and snotty. The dumb POB (compare to PO$) might think the decal is a real reflector, and plus "real cyclists" don't even believe in reflectors because they can afford $50 (or maybe much more) on a set of lights.

Well I plain didn't understand the OP at first, and when I finally did grasp it (or at least I think I grasp it), it seemed snobby and snotty.

I don't think it's snobby and snotty to consider it [typically] bad tactics for a city cycling event to suggest that reflectors are a requirement of the law when it isn't - and by doing so, subliminally insinuate that reflectors are superior to proper lighting systems.

What's worse, there are folks who would not only believe such a lead-in as being the gospel ("Hey, they're wearing a City shirt that says 'Ask Me!' on it, they must be right!"), they'll also assume that this 2.5"-long reflector will provide adequate protection - that's one more ninja cyclist who won't convert to lights out of hard-headed ignorance.

-Kurt

Not to get into the middle of a pointless pi**ing contest, but...

Are you sure that reflectors aren't required? Here in Washngton State, a red reflector is technically required - even if you have an active rear lighting system. The requirement is rarely enforced, but I could easily see a lawyer attempting to use the lack of a reflector as a get out of jail free card for an inattentive motorist...

FWIW, several of us from the cascade bike club have gotten together the past couple of winters to run a little workshop for winter commuters to share our various lighting/reflector setups and compare how we show up from the perspective of the average motorist/headight setup. As it happens, the general consensus is that decent reflectors show up far better than most good quality red blinkies like planet bike superflash, etc. We haven't had a real flamer like a dinotte to compare in the past, but pobably will this year.

Ah, it's been adopted by A&S. But I still don't get what POB has to do with the decal reflectors. Is the problem that the bike depicted on the decal is not stylish enough?

"It came from A&S" is not an effective counter to the argument that it sounds snotty. In fact, it reinforces.

If I was asked to combat the bike ninja problem, I don't know what I would do. Handing out reflective bumper stickers isn't on the list.

The way I read the PA requirements, you have to have a rear reflector, pedal reflectors, and side reflectors. I believe those only apply if you ride at night. I was volunteering on a brevet last week, and when I overtook a rider in the dark, the reflective gear he was wearing was definitely very visible. I don't remember if he had reflective tape on his bike.

I don't think it's snobby and snotty to consider it [typically] bad tactics for a city cycling event to suggest that reflectors are a requirement of the law when it isn't - and by doing so, subliminally insinuate that reflectors are superior to proper lighting systems.

What's worse, there are folks who would not only believe such a lead-in as being the gospel ("Hey, they're wearing a City shirt that says 'Ask Me!' on it, they must be right!"), they'll also assume that this 2.5"-long reflector will provide adequate protection - that's one more ninja cyclist who won't convert to lights out of hard-headed ignorance.

-Kurt

Thanks for the explanation and for finally giving up some pertinent information about what happened at the meeting. I pretty much agree with you, now that I understand what you're talking about.

However, I think "POB" is a term that needs to disappear, at least in an advocacy context. Also, I doubt if it was the intent of the organizer to say that a little decal would take the place of proper reflectors and lights.

B grade cyclists.

free reflective tape is good. free bike oriented schwag is good PR.

florida law sez no reflectors?

florida bike law is pretty specific requiring both reflector AND lights.

"A bicycle operated between sunset and sunrise must be equipped with a lamp on the front exhibiting a white light visible from 500 feet to the front and both a red reflector and a lamp on the rear exhibiting a red light visible from 600 feet to the rear.
Additional lighting is permitted and recommended."



is that bumper sticker CPSC certified? ;)

If I was asked to combat the bike ninja problem, I don't know what I would do. Handing out reflective bumper stickers isn't on the list.

It's rather obvious that they aren't trying to solve the bike ninja problem; they're simply handing out hipster "put it on your top tube" stickers that promote cycling in Miami. That's all well and good, but the lead-in for giving them out is not - it gives people a false understanding of the law, and - furthermore - its wholly condescending to people who are following the law.


The way I read the PA requirements, you have to have a rear reflector, pedal reflectors, and side reflectors. I believe those only apply if you ride at night.

The only mention of reflector requirements within Florida's 316.2065 are as follows (From http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statuTes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=Ch0316/Sec2065.HTM ):


(8) Every bicycle in use between sunset and sunrise shall be equipped with a lamp on the front exhibiting a white light visible from a distance of at least 500 feet to the front and a lamp and reflector on the rear each exhibiting a red light visible from a distance of 600 feet to the rear. A bicycle or its rider may be equipped with lights or reflectors in addition to those required by this section.

Though it mentions "...in addition to those required by this section," there exists no additional mention of lighting or reflectors within the rest of the section.

The City of Miami code does not have any additional reflector requirements, though a bell is mandatory (added a couple of years ago as a means of kicking tramps and the homeless off their bikes. Fact is, half of the participants at Bike Miami didn't have bells either).

-Kurt

However, I think "POB" is a term that needs to disappear, at least in an advocacy context.

Changed. Have a look at the original post.


florida bike law is pretty specific requiring both reflector AND lights.

"A bicycle operated between sunset and sunrise must be equipped with a lamp on the front exhibiting a white light visible from 500 feet to the front and both a red reflector and a lamp on the rear exhibiting a red light visible from 600 feet to the rear.
Additional lighting is permitted and recommended."

Perhaps you ought to dig up a genuine copy of the law, rather then get some truncated one re-written for B-grade cyclists. See my previous post for the exact wording from the only source I consider reputable: http://www.leg.state.fl.us/.

The event was held in broad daylight, outside of the parameters of sunset and sunrise. The law - even as stated in your truncated version - is quite explicit that reflectors are not required after sunrise and before sunset.

-Kurt

What is a B grade cyclist? Where do we take the test to see how much of a cyclist we are?

Where do we take the test to see how much of a cyclist we are?

The A&S forum, of course. Admit it - there isn't a thread in this forum that is completely down-to-earth, sensible, and free of negative wisecracks.

-Kurt

If I was asked to combat the bike ninja problem, I don't know what I would do. Handing out reflective bumper stickers isn't on the list.

Actually, it's probably the only thing that will work. The people who ride at night with no lights are not going to change the clothing that they wear, and even if you give them free lights, they will either not remember to turn them on, or they won't replace the batteries when they die.

A decent reflector (good reflective tape counts) is certainly not ideal, but it would probably make them many times more visible than they already are, and you have to use passive measures like reflectors, because active measures require upkeep that they will not do.

Actually, it's probably the only thing that will work. The people who ride at night with no lights are not going to change the clothing that they wear, and even if you give them free lights, they will either not remember to turn them on, or they won't replace the batteries when they die.

A decent reflector (good reflective tape counts) is certainly not ideal, but it would probably make them many times more visible than they already are, and you have to use passive measures like reflectors, because active measures require upkeep that they will not do.

Good point. Reflectors are actually pretty good (i would give them a B grade ;)) compared to nothing at all. And it seems likely that more low income people (and let's face it--that's really what we're talking about here) will use reflectors instead of expensive lamps. In fact, most people leave the factory installed reflectors on the bike. It's usually the BF posers who rip them off. Personally, I always leave the rear one on, because a rear blinky can quit functioning without me knowing it.

I'm hoping to have a high quality reflective paint job soon.

A sticker on the top tube doesn't do much good.

It's usually the BF posers who rip them off. Personally, I always leave the rear one on, because a rear blinky can quit functioning without me knowing it.

I left the rear one on, added a 1.5 x 4 inch DOT truck reflector, AND covered most of the bars of my bike and 1/2 of the diameter of my rear wheel with conspicuity tape, and left the spoke reflectors in. I ride with a neon yellow reflective vest and I have a dinotte and SF taillight and a P7 headlight.

Honestly, the reflective vest when it's anywhere near a car's headlight beam is the next best thing to the Dinotte. It bounces back a LOT of light.

Incidentally - the person who made this statement in the first place is vehemently denying that such a statement was made by anyone involved in the event in the first place.

Typical of local government. I rather expected that.

This same individual tried to brighten up the situation by mentioning that they "wanted to give away PlanetBike full lighting systems" instead, but it was "too expensive."

Of course! After all, giving out $15 PlanetBike Blinky Safety 1-Led light sets to over 200 participants for the mere cost of $3,000 is a most practical idea! Right?
Right?
Right?
Um, right?
Eh...right?

No, it isn't, and I don't believe a word of it.

-Kurt

This sure was an imperfect attempt at improving bike safety.

every little bit helps, and reflectors are required equipment for bikes in florida -that operate at night.

advocacy on a grass roots level with the 'your bikes need reflectors' IS a valuable thought provoking message and every little bit of reflective bit helps anyway.

sure, a cheap, clip on CPSC reflector would be nice too- and blinkies are remarkably inexpensive nowadays- a few hundred dollars- chump change- would outfit quite a few bicyclists with blinkies. a targeted strategy perhaps TOO specific for generalized passsing out at public events. reflective tape is visibility enhancing, yes?

maybe kurt can exorcise the offending graphic and use the reflective tape remaining to improve his nightime visibility profile -

and quit biatching about public advocacy efforts - however inexact- to improve cyclists nightime safety with some reflective schwag and the message about legal requirements for florida bicyclists that 'your bike needs reflectors' when operated at night (kind of a no-brainer part of the message, but maybe not to kudak!:D)

advocacy on a grass roots level with the 'your bikes need reflectors' IS a valuable thought provoking message and every little bit of reflective bit helps anyway.

"Your bike needs lights" is far more valuable a comment.


maybe kurt can exorcise the offending graphic and use the reflective tape remaining to improve his nightime visibility profile -

You're the one who has a problem with the sticker itself, not me.

Why don't you stick to the facts for once? I haven't seen a single post of yours that doesn't twist the truth.

-Kurt

what's the problem with grass roots advocacy about reflectors?


far more bicyclists i know in my state ( a state with a legal red reflector requirement) have lights than reflectors still on their bikes. i suspect this is the case with FLA bicyclists as well.

and, kudak, you've seriously got your chamois so in a bunch over grass roots advocacy aimed at improving nightime bicyclist safety despite its inexact approach?

wow, man. i feel sorry for your outlook but keep the cranks turning!

what's the problem with grass roots advocacy about reflectors?

When it is forced and incongruous with the law.


far more bicyclists i know in my state ( a state with a legal red reflector requirement) have lights than reflectors still on their bikes. i suspect this is the case with FLA bicyclists as well.

It isn't. Most cyclists here have the stock post and wheel reflectors, but only the die-hards have any sort of lighting equipment.

-Kurt

every little bit helps, and reflectors are required equipment for bikes in florida -that operate at night.

advocacy on a grass roots level with the 'your bikes need reflectors' IS a valuable thought provoking message and every little bit of reflective bit helps anyway.

sure, a cheap, clip on CPSC reflector would be nice too- and blinkies are remarkably inexpensive nowadays- a few hundred dollars- chump change- would outfit quite a few bicyclists with blinkies. a targeted strategy perhaps TOO specific for generalized passsing out at public events. reflective tape is visibility enhancing, yes?

maybe kurt can exorcise the offending graphic and use the reflective tape remaining to improve his nightime visibility profile -

and quit biatching about public advocacy efforts - however inexact- to improve cyclists nightime safety with some reflective schwag and the message about legal requirements for florida bicyclists that 'your bike needs reflectors' when operated at night (kind of a no-brainer part of the message, but maybe not to kudak!:D)

Actually your bike needs lights when operated at night, , reflectors can be handy in less then ideal weather or when it's still light enough that lights are not legally required, but dark enough that a bicycle could be less visible. A reflector is only visible when the angles are right so that the headlight beam of a following vehicle is bounced toward the operator of that vehicle. Some reflectors bounce the light in all directions, and what is visible to a car driver could be very little.

I've seen headlights for as little as $5, and tail lights for as little as $4, if you ride at night $9 is pretty cheap insurance. As for reflectors, my bike has on it what it had when I bought it, I added a head and tail light (paid more then $9 though :D), for night riding.

Actually your bike needs lights when operated at night, , reflectors can be handy in less then ideal weather or when it's still light enough that lights are not legally required, but dark enough that a bicycle could be less visible. A reflector is only visible when the angles are right so that the headlight beam of a following vehicle is bounced toward the operator of that vehicle. Some reflectors bounce the light in all directions, and what is visible to a car driver could be very little.

I've seen headlights for as little as $5, and tail lights for as little as $4, if you ride at night $9 is pretty cheap insurance. As for reflectors, my bike has on it what it had when I bought it, I added a head and tail light (paid more then $9 though :D), for night riding.

I bet most reflectors are brighter (in car headlights) than those super cheap blinkies. If you have reflectors, you're more than halfway to adequate lighting. What would be really cool is in all outdoor clothing was required to have good reflective trim. Especially shoes.

I bet most reflectors are brighter (in car headlights) than those super cheap blinkies. If you have reflectors, you're more than halfway to adequate lighting. What would be really cool is in all outdoor clothing was required to have good reflective trim. Especially shoes.

That begs the question, why are winter jackets and coats always dark colours, when it's usually dark outside. I have a jacket from my employer that has retro reflective trim on it, and man in a car headlight you can see that thing from at least 200m away.

As for bicycle lights, there are federal minimum standards for automotive lighting, there should be similar standards for bicycle lighting. Part of the standards for automotive lights is that when the light is not illuminated, that it works as a reflector.