Classic & Vintage - Raleigh and Colnago identification

I picked up a colnago the other day that has been repainted, and I've had a Raleigh frame hanging in my garage since a friend had me strip it and build him bike that fit him better.

The Raleigh is definitely carlton, campy drops, lug cutouts, with slots in the bb. I'll update this post with a serial number in a little bit.

The colnago has campy drops, chromed fork crown, not sure if there's more chrome under the repaint, and I can't find the serial #. I haven't tried too hard, just looked it over pretty good. It has a campy record headset, which I think is C Record, but I'm not well versed in the campy line. There's a clover carved out of the bb, and clover pantographing on the fork crown. Also wondering what the front derailleur is, nuovo record?

Raleigh
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f240/kremebr/Bikes/frames/58cm%20Blue%20Worksop%20Raleigh/hubsandspace_2044.jpg

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f240/kremebr/Bikes/frames/58cm%20Blue%20Worksop%20Raleigh/hubsandspace_2046.jpg

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f240/kremebr/Bikes/frames/58cm%20Blue%20Worksop%20Raleigh/hubsandspace_2048.jpg

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f240/kremebr/Bikes/frames/58cm%20Blue%20Worksop%20Raleigh/hubsandspace_2049.jpg

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f240/kremebr/Bikes/frames/58cm%20Blue%20Worksop%20Raleigh/hubsandspace_2050.jpg

Colnago
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f240/kremebr/Bikes/frames/Blue%20Colnago/hubsandspace_2033.jpg

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f240/kremebr/Bikes/frames/Blue%20Colnago/hubsandspace_2040.jpg

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f240/kremebr/Bikes/frames/Blue%20Colnago/hubsandspace_2041.jpg

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f240/kremebr/Bikes/frames/Blue%20Colnago/hubsandspace_2043.jpg

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f240/kremebr/Bikes/frames/Blue%20Colnago/hubsandspace_2034.jpg

The lug work looks like a raleigh professional to me...it's nearly identical to my team pro.

The first is a 1978 Raleigh Professional Mark V - undoubtedly.

-Kurt

The first is a 1978 Raleigh Professional Mark V - undoubtedly.

-Kurt


Very nice, thank you. How did you know that? And what is the significance of Mark V?

Very nice, thank you. How did you know that? And what is the significance of Mark V?

Different variations of the Raleigh Pro got different Mark #'s. IV has a sloping chromed fork crown. V has a flat, painted fork crown and windowed lugs.

Different variations of the Raleigh Pro got different Mark #'s. IV has a sloping chromed fork crown. V has a flat, painted fork crown and windowed lugs.

Correct. The Mark V also went with plain seatstay caps as opposed to the fastback seat lug, previously used on all Professionals from the 1970 Mark II's until the final '76 Mark IV's. The Mark V's - along with the early pre-'70, first-gen Professionals - were the only examples (short of SDBU Pro's) to use anything other then the fastback cluster.

-Kurt

I take it the Raleigh Pro was the top model for any given year?

Also, what exactly is the difference between the fastback stays and regular caps? Are plain caps mitered and brazed alongside the lug, while fastback stays are incorporated into the lug somehow?

Finally, what is the SDBU Pro?

As for the Colnago, any clues?

I take it the Raleigh Pro was the top model for any given year?

The Team Professional trumps it. SDBU Team Pros are the absolute top.


Also, what exactly is the difference between the fastback stays and regular caps? Are plain caps mitered and brazed alongside the lug, while fastback stays are incorporated into the lug somehow?

Fastback seat lug/cluster:

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/images/raleigh-baylis02.jpg

Yours has a more conventional routing of the seat stays. Caps can be either forged pieces that fit at the end of the seat stay tube and provide the connecting interface between lug and tube, or it can be a flat piece of steel brazed to the top of a tube cut at an angle (as with your Professional Mark V).

Note that Raleigh was probably the undisputed champion of utterly sloppy seat stay caps - note how the caps "spill over" the tube over most of the tube's diameter (see picture #2). A framebuilder that would take any pride in his or her work would file them down.


Finally, what is the SDBU Pro?

My mistake - SBDU. Stands for Raleigh Specialist Bicycle Development Unit, located in Ilkeston. The custom frames were produced here, along with the true Team Pros - they generally show significantly better quality then the production from other factories (though the Ilkeston seat stay caps are sometimes just as sloppy as normal production Pros, go figure).


As for the Colnago, any clues?

None at this end, sorry. I never followed Colnagos - don't care for them, and information is too spotty.

-Kurt

P.S.: Do you have an overall photo of that Raleigh Pro frame? They didn't come with braze-ons when new, and I notice these look abnormally low. I'll wager a respray for someone with very odd taste in where his shifters belong.

This is a Team Pro, but it wasn't made in SBDU...it was Workshop/Carlton:

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2428/3974999973_34a842a7b8_m.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/43239244@N08/3974999973/)http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3430/3975000207_931d4eb793_m.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/43239244@N08/3975000207/)http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2541/3975000069_66d98d227b_m.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/43239244@N08/3975000069/)http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2626/3983707268_1bc5231f0b_m.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/43239244@N08/3983707268/)

The first is a 1978 Raleigh Professional Mark V - undoubtedly.

-Kurt

Exactly

This is a Team Pro replica, but it wasn't made in SBDU...it was Workshop/Carlton:
...

fify.

It's one of the more desirable replicas - without question.

P.S.: Do you have an overall photo of that Raleigh Pro frame? They didn't come with braze-ons when new, and I notice these look abnormally low. I'll wager a respray for someone with very odd taste in where his shifters belong.

+1 The color also seems a bit off - too gray; not blue enough. If you look closely at the pics, you can see a few spots that appear to be the original paint; my guess is the respray was done without taking the frame down to bare metal.

USAZorro - little confused...a local guy and self proclaimed raleigh expert who works at Via told me it is a team pro and that some were made in Carlton (although not as desirable as the SBDUs).

USAZorro - little confused...a local guy and self proclaimed raleigh expert who works at Via told me it is a team pro and that some were made in Carlton (although not as desirable as the SBDUs).

If he looked at that silver and blue paint job, turned to you, and stated it's a Team Pro with a straight face, he has demoted himself to self-proclaimed idiot.

Then again, a good majority of those self-proclaimed LBS Raleigh experts are idiots who base their knowledge on fuzzy memories of when they used to sell these things back in the '70s. Problem is, they never admit their knowledge isn't concrete.



This is a Team Pro, but it wasn't made in SBDU...it was Workshop/Carlton:

Come to think of it, IIRC, the Team Pros did not use the fastback clusters, even during the Mk IV era.

-Kurt

Do you have an overall photo of that Raleigh Pro frame? They didn't come with braze-ons when new, and I notice these look abnormally low. I'll wager a respray for someone with very odd taste in where his shifters belong.


+1 The color also seems a bit off - too gray; not blue enough. If you look closely at the pics, you can see a few spots that appear to be the original paint; my guess is the respray was done without taking the frame down to bare metal.

Seriously good eye. Yes, there's something funny with the paint. I think someone tried to repaint in a similar color without striping the original paint first. If the original didn't have dt bosses, these must have been added. It would make sense, because the bike was equipped with choice aftermarket components, so the owner wanted it set up his way. Phil Wood freewheel hubs laced to Ambrosio 19s, Sugino Super Mighty crankset, superbe derailleur, etc.

I guess that kills the value of the Raleigh Pro?

If he looked at that silver and blue paint job, turned to you, and stated it's a Team Pro with a straight face, he has demoted himself to self-proclaimed idiot.

-Kurt
Kurt,
I think that he's referring to the red one posted above, not the blue/silver

marty

Cudak - no - I meant my bike...not his. I suspect he's also not a blow hard...Curtis is pretty famous on the east coast for the vintage stuff. I was told mine was a team pro and not a painted professional...just made in Carlton and not SBDU. A guy in the yahoo raleigh group told me the same...that some pros were made in Carlton because they had more orders than SBDU was able to turn out.

I guess that kills the value of the Raleigh Pro?

Well, probably; that's one way to look at it. otoh, if you're going to keep it, it's still a very nice frame. If you set it up with bar ends, the boss position wouldn't be quite so unfortunate.

Cudak - no - I meant my bike...not his.

Whoops, my mistake. He knows what he's talking about.

-Kurt

I guess that kills the value of the Raleigh Pro?

Not necessarily - depends on how far down those shifter bosses are. If they're far down enough to be entirely ungainly and unsightly (sure looks that way), they'd probably be best removed - and if you do that, there goes the paint.

Colnago is the better deal of the two, and not because it's a "Colnago" either - it's simply in better overall shape, and the repaint is presentable.

-Kurt

Well, probably; that's one way to look at it. otoh, if you're going to keep it, it's still a very nice frame. If you set it up with bar ends, the boss position wouldn't be quite so unfortunate.

Well I wasn't planning on keeping it. Its a little small for me, and I have other tastes, usually. I had thought of having it restored to original paint and selling it, but now I wonder if its worth doing that. Come to think of it, if I did that I could probably have the shifters taken off! Not a fan of removing braze ons, but in this case..

seeing as Raleigh did custom orders is it possible someone ordered that Pro with the
bosses so low on the downtube? Long armed individual?

If I ever get a Raleigh it's going to be in that mink blue Sliver paint scheme, it's just classic to
my eye.

Marty

Not necessarily - depends on how far down those shifter bosses are. If they're far down enough to be entirely ungainly and unsightly (sure looks that way), they'd probably be best removed - and if you do that, there goes the paint.

Colnago is the better deal of the two, and not because it's a "Colnago" either - it's simply in better overall shape, and the repaint is presentable.

-Kurt

I'm thinking of getting them both repainted. There's a local bicycle painter here, Chester Cycles, that does a very nice job, and I'd like to try working with him. I'd like to get them restored before selling them, and if the opportunity arises, do a full custom build on one or both for someone local in chicago, or elsewhere.

There's a shop that has a pro with that paint job...and the person left the bike there a year ago and hasn't returned for it. He also put bull horns on it and a kick stand.

I believe the Colnago is a 75 or 76 model based on cutout on lugs and fork tang
and the combination of the club and "Colnago" on the fork crown.

Marty

seeing as Raleigh did custom orders is it possible someone ordered that Pro with the
bosses so low on the downtube? Long armed individual?

That wouldn't explain the repaint, and the stock, clamp-on setup would have allowed the owner to put the shifters virtually anywhere on the downtube.


I'm thinking of getting them both repainted. There's a local bicycle painter here, Chester Cycles, that does a very nice job, and I'd like to try working with him. I'd like to get them restored before selling them, and if the opportunity arises, do a full custom build on one or both for someone local in chicago, or elsewhere.

The Colnago looks fine as-is, it's a very nice paint job. To put it in perspective: Even I would tolerate that thing in my collection, as-is, without a repaint - and I generally don't care for Colnagos.

As for the Raleigh - if you commit to repainting it (don't do this unless you commit), strip the paint around the downtube braze-ons and see if they've been put there with silver or brass. If silver, a framebuilder can heat them and they'll pretty much fall off. If brass, they'll probably need to be ground off (tricky business).

-Kurt

Yes the FD is Nuovo Record. Looks like the one on my 72 Moto. That + the assesment that it is a '75ish frame, the rest of the parts are not period.

That wouldn't explain the repaint, and the stock, clamp-on setup would have allowed the owner to put the shifters virtually anywhere on the downtube.



The Colnago looks fine as-is, it's a very nice paint job. To put it in perspective: Even I would tolerate that thing in my collection, as-is, without a repaint - and I generally don't care for Colnagos.



It looks ok, but it doesn't feel right to the touch. If I can figure out the original paint scheme, I'd like to see this guy restored to full glory. Plus, its more or less the C&V/campground motto: Leave it better than you found it.





As for the Raleigh - if you commit to repainting it (don't do this unless you commit), strip the paint around the downtube braze-ons and see if they've been put there with silver or brass. If silver, a framebuilder can heat them and they'll pretty much fall off. If brass, they'll probably need to be ground off (tricky business).


Good to know, hopefully its silver. If its brass, I think I can file it down myself. I may be crucified for this, but I had an Ishiwata Bianchi Limited with damaged brake cable guides that I was building for a girl as a single speed. Once I removed the cable guides, it made sense to remove everything else (and she wanted me to), so I ground and filed the rest of the braze ons off myself. I more than broke a sweat, its hard work, but after the coat it came out pretty clean. (Not to worry, I left the derailleur hanger) Now wet paint is thinner than powder coat, so I imagine small file marks would be more visible, while powder conceals them. So it would be touchier, and you'd probably have to end with a very fine file, or sandpaper to get rid of abbrasions. I might do this myself, but not without thinking it through thoroughly first.

Yes the FD is Nuovo Record. Looks like the one on my 72 Moto. That + the assesment that it is a '75ish frame, the rest of the parts are not period.

Are there any catalogs available, or any way to nail it down to a model, tubing and paint scheme? I'd look closer for a serial #, would that even help?