Framebuilders - I want to start framebuilding!

Does anyone have any suggestions as to where to start?

1. What do I need in terms of hardware? Something to braze, and something to braze with, I assume.

2. Lugs. Seatstays. Bottom brackets. Dropouts.

3. Tubing.

Any cheap sources for 2 or 3? I really don't need nice stuff. At all. Just stuff to practice with.

I want to start building simple lugged steel frames for fun, among other reasons.

I would start by just plain welding regular materials to start. Local Adult Ed. in your community might have them for forty dollars a course. You ought to simply learn the wielding a torch first.

Tubes aren't sold as such. Frame builders don't buy them like so much plumbers tubing at a constuction site.
Tubes for bike frames are sold as TUBE Sets, they're PRICEY. Lugs, BBs, Dr-outs are bought in bulk, not cheap.
A few domestic suppliers sell such, very few.
Once your get your brazing and/or tig skills, you could set about your endeavour...

Bike repair and Frame build. schools are out there too. www.bbinstitute.com (http://www.bbinstitute.com) & others

Well, not gonna lie, that sucks. Straight up sucks.

Things shouldn't have to be so expensive. Anyone else have any decent sources?

Or should I win the lottery to start building frames?

Man, I hate bikes. They're expensive. Maybe I'll just give up on advocacy and buy a car after all.

Not really.

But still.

Bummer.

Well, not gonna lie, that sucks. Straight up sucks.

Things shouldn't have to be so expensive. Anyone else have any decent sources?

Or should I win the lottery to start building frames?

Man, I hate bikes. They're expensive. Maybe I'll just give up on advocacy and buy a car after all.

Not really.

But still.

Bummer.

Haha! You may be right- I think I`d probably save money by getting rid of my bikes and reinstating my old pickup as my sole mode of transportaion! Of course, it doesn`t HAVE to be expensve, I just like to dink around a lot.

B Mole, I don`t build frames either, so I`m not by any means an expert, but I think that other guy is exagerating about how high the prices of materials. Search up Henry James, Ceeway, Nova, Online Metals and Aircraft Spruce for suplies. You can get straight wall cromo tubing or even whole tubesets to build a bike for less than the price of a good set of wheels to go under your new frame. H.James has a lot of info on his site, along with suplies and the famous "Paternek Manual for Framebuilding". In fact, the internet is loaded with info on framebuilding and frame suplies. Google around and see what you run into. Good luck with your project- if you realy have the gumption, I have no doubt you can find a way to do it.

Exagerating ? No, I don't think so.. a cheap tube set $80 ; cheap lugset $25 ; bottom bracket shell $35. A torch kit $80, at least, the tanks ?? don't know.

OK 220, still no tanks, gas, braze & whatever else I missed. ALL these materials to build ONE bike $140 + gas, solder, etc. not a pricey one either.

Old and New, those materials prices just don`t seem so bad to me. I guess we just differ in our definitions of "pricey". It`s when you start talking prices for regulators and tanks or TIG machines that I start to feel pain in my checking account. Or silver- yikes!

NOVA Cycle Supply usually carries straight gauge 4130 priced by the foot, as well as inexpensive stamped "practice lugs". It's also not unusual to find old lugs available on Ebay. And you can even find old crap frames for a few dollars, which can be disassembled and reassembled to your heart's content.

Old and New, those materials prices just don`t seem so bad to me. I guess we just differ in our definitions of "pricey". It`s when you start talking prices for regulators and tanks or TIG machines that I start to feel pain in my checking account. Or silver- yikes!

True but I also didn't mention : Fork = $100 or more new
drop-outs = 50
cable guides, other braze ons = ?
deposit on the tanks= 100
head set = 20
machining the BB sheel, head tubes (facing) = $50 . i don't kwow.. am I missing something, proably am

one fellow had an idea, a good one; start by messin' around with an old frame.
i suppose i could've said " yeah.. go fer it dude" just not me, it's not sincere.

nova has monthly specials. I got one of the specials a couple months ago for $190 for the tubeset, lugs, bb and dropouts. Their chromo specials usually go for about $130. That leaves the forks. I'm interested in building a stack of forks as an experiment, and it's hard to do for less than $100 or so each. A unicrown fork is most of $50. Silver cost me $100, braze-ons about $25. It adds up. My tanks and torch were around $700.

The fact is, the first one should probably be thrown away.

Call up Joe Bringheli and ask him what he has laying around. Often he has odd ball lugs sets for cheap as well as various dropouts and such. He typically sells dropouts for about $20/set and tube sets that run about $10 tube. You should be able to get a full kit for $150 or less. In today's day and age that's dirt cheap, but of course you then need to build the frame and your costs will add up. Maybe there is another hobby builder in your area you can share resources with? You might want to check out the framebuilders list and frameforum for help in this area.

The term "expensive" is a relative term. For some, a 1986 Honda Civic is a treasure. For others a 2 year old Porsche is pedestrian. If you find value in the process then it isn't expensive, if you don't then it is. If you just want a bike frame, then go buy one and problem solved. if you want to learn as you go, then you should be willing to pay for that experience.

Go to Aircraft Spruce and order online. Order some 1", 1 1/8" and 1 1/4" 4130 tubing in .035" thickness. You can buy it by the foot. By a lot of it.

Buy cheap practice lugs. I have a box of them that I will send you for free if you pay the shipping. Braze up 30+ lugs to short sections of the 4130. After you braze up each joint, cut it in half and see how much penetration you are getting. Don't take short cuts, don't depreciate the value of the process. Remember, that is where the value is. If you just find value in the end process (i.e. the frame) then you are wasting your time. Learn as you go. It is the only reason to do this. An even cheaper alternative is to order some .058" walled 4130 in the next size up from Aircraft Spruce. .058" in 1 1/4" O.D., for example, will slide over 1 1/8" tubing. You can use the .058" as a sleeve and then braze it up. It is a very cheap route to learn torch control and capillary action of the filler material.

You can buy silver or bronze filler material. Silver is a bit easier to use but bronze is much cheaper. Dealer's choice on which direction you want to go. Buy 1/16" diameter rod.

Use the black flux from Harris (you can get it at any welding supply store). Technically it is for bronze brazing but use it on silver when you are starting out. If you are just learning how to braze the longer effective zone of the flux will help you out and keep you charring the f*ck out of what you are doing.

If you are starting out without anything, the most expensive portion of the process will be a good torch, regulators and the tanks. Some welding supply shops will lease you tanks. Other places make you purchase the tanks outright with the assurance they will buy them back from you later on if you want to sell. The torches and regs can be bought from your welding supply store or online. But, if you don't know what you want then you can end up spending more online versus just going into the shop and asking for help.

Again, I stress that you use cheap 4130 straight wall tubing and old pressed lugs. You should NOT strike out and start building a bike from the get go. Learn to braze, learn torch control, learn the basics. Once you have that, then start putting it all together. Don't start thinking about how cool the bike will be because most likely it will ride like a bag of wrenches. Don't worry about that. Learn what you did wrong and improve. Don't start thinking about using stainless steel anytime soon. It is much harder to sweat and much easier to f*ck up. Don't start thinking about how you want to start lug carving and making it pretty and fancy. Do that after you learn the basics. You aren't building a Porsche. You are striving for that 1986 Honda Civic.

These are of course just my opinions and I reserve the right to be wrong.

learn how to weld/braze first, that ain't easy.

The term "expensive" is a relative term. For some, a 1986 Honda Civic is a treasure. For others a 2 year old Porsche is pedestrian. If you find value in the process then it isn't expensive, if you don't then it is. If you just want a bike frame, then go buy one and problem solved. if you want to learn as you go, then you should be willing to pay for that experience.

Go to Aircraft Spruce and order online. Order some 1", 1 1/8" and 1 1/4" 4130 tubing in .035" thickness. You can buy it by the foot. By a lot of it.

Buy cheap practice lugs. I have a box of them that I will send you for free if you pay the shipping. Braze up 30+ lugs to short sections of the 4130. After you braze up each joint, cut it in half and see how much penetration you are getting. Don't take short cuts, don't depreciate the value of the process. Remember, that is where the value is. If you just find value in the end process (i.e. the frame) then you are wasting your time. Learn as you go. It is the only reason to do this. An even cheaper alternative is to order some .058" walled 4130 in the next size up from Aircraft Spruce. .058" in 1 1/4" O.D., for example, will slide over 1 1/8" tubing. You can use the .058" as a sleeve and then braze it up. It is a very cheap route to learn torch control and capillary action of the filler material.

You can buy silver or bronze filler material. Silver is a bit easier to use but bronze is much cheaper. Dealer's choice on which direction you want to go. Buy 1/16" diameter rod.

Use the black flux from Harris (you can get it at any welding supply store). Technically it is for bronze brazing but use it on silver when you are starting out. If you are just learning how to braze the longer effective zone of the flux will help you out and keep you charring the f*ck out of what you are doing.

If you are starting out without anything, the most expensive portion of the process will be a good torch, regulators and the tanks. Some welding supply shops will lease you tanks. Other places make you purchase the tanks outright with the assurance they will buy them back from you later on if you want to sell. The torches and regs can be bought from your welding supply store or online. But, if you don't know what you want then you can end up spending more online versus just going into the shop and asking for help.

Again, I stress that you use cheap 4130 straight wall tubing and old pressed lugs. You should NOT strike out and start building a bike from the get go. Learn to braze, learn torch control, learn the basics. Once you have that, then start putting it all together. Don't start thinking about how cool the bike will be because most likely it will ride like a bag of wrenches. Don't worry about that. Learn what you did wrong and improve. Don't start thinking about using stainless steel anytime soon. It is much harder to sweat and much easier to f*ck up. Don't start thinking about how you want to start lug carving and making it pretty and fancy. Do that after you learn the basics. You aren't building a Porsche. You are striving for that 1986 Honda Civic.

These are of course just my opinions and I reserve the right to be wrong.

This is good information. I think Ill go this route.

This is good information. I think Ill go this route.

I was hoping for food pictures

Don't forget the 100's of hours spending preping, cutting, mitering, cleaning, brazing, cleaning, filing, filing some more, some more cleaning and prepping before painting.

Builds strength -- both mental and physical!

The term "expensive" is a relative term. For some, a 1986 Honda Civic is a treasure. For others a 2 year old Porsche is pedestrian. If you find value in the process then it isn't expensive, if you don't then it is. If you just want a bike frame, then go buy one and problem solved. if you want to learn as you go, then you should be willing to pay for that experience.

Go to Aircraft Spruce and order online. Order some 1", 1 1/8" and 1 1/4" 4130 tubing in .035" thickness. You can buy it by the foot. By a lot of it.

Buy cheap practice lugs. I have a box of them that I will send you for free if you pay the shipping. Braze up 30+ lugs to short sections of the 4130. After you braze up each joint, cut it in half and see how much penetration you are getting. Don't take short cuts, don't depreciate the value of the process. Remember, that is where the value is. If you just find value in the end process (i.e. the frame) then you are wasting your time. Learn as you go. It is the only reason to do this. An even cheaper alternative is to order some .058" walled 4130 in the next size up from Aircraft Spruce. .058" in 1 1/4" O.D., for example, will slide over 1 1/8" tubing. You can use the .058" as a sleeve and then braze it up. It is a very cheap route to learn torch control and capillary action of the filler material.

You can buy silver or bronze filler material. Silver is a bit easier to use but bronze is much cheaper. Dealer's choice on which direction you want to go. Buy 1/16" diameter rod.

Use the black flux from Harris (you can get it at any welding supply store). Technically it is for bronze brazing but use it on silver when you are starting out. If you are just learning how to braze the longer effective zone of the flux will help you out and keep you charring the f*ck out of what you are doing.

If you are starting out without anything, the most expensive portion of the process will be a good torch, regulators and the tanks. Some welding supply shops will lease you tanks. Other places make you purchase the tanks outright with the assurance they will buy them back from you later on if you want to sell. The torches and regs can be bought from your welding supply store or online. But, if you don't know what you want then you can end up spending more online versus just going into the shop and asking for help.

Again, I stress that you use cheap 4130 straight wall tubing and old pressed lugs. You should NOT strike out and start building a bike from the get go. Learn to braze, learn torch control, learn the basics. Once you have that, then start putting it all together. Don't start thinking about how cool the bike will be because most likely it will ride like a bag of wrenches. Don't worry about that. Learn what you did wrong and improve. Don't start thinking about using stainless steel anytime soon. It is much harder to sweat and much easier to f*ck up. Don't start thinking about how you want to start lug carving and making it pretty and fancy. Do that after you learn the basics. You aren't building a Porsche. You are striving for that 1986 Honda Civic.

These are of course just my opinions and I reserve the right to be wrong.

This is indeed fantastic information.

Torch. Regulators. Tanks. Lugs. 4130 tubing. Black Flux. Bronze solder.

And, of course, a book somewhere would be great.

-Nick

This is indeed fantastic information.

Torch. Regulators. Tanks. Lugs. 4130 tubing. Black Flux. Bronze solder.

And, of course, a book somewhere would be great.

-Nick

Nick, you can download a FREE copy of an older version of Tim Paterek's Manual for Bicycle Framebuilders HERE (http://www.timpaterek.com/tpmanual_pdf.htm), or spring for the latest, greatly improved version HERE (http://www.timpaterek.com/).

Tim also sells really good step-by-step framebuilding DVDs.

Nick, you can download a FREE copy of an older version of Tim Paterek's Manual for Bicycle Framebuilders HERE (http://www.timpaterek.com/tpmanual_pdf.htm), or spring for the latest, greatly improved version HERE (http://www.timpaterek.com/).

Tim also sells really good step-by-step framebuilding DVDs.

thanks

Nick, you can download a FREE copy of an older version of Tim Paterek's Manual for Bicycle Framebuilders HERE (http://www.timpaterek.com/tpmanual_pdf.htm), or spring for the latest, greatly improved version HERE (http://www.timpaterek.com/).

Tim also sells really good step-by-step framebuilding DVDs.

First I thought that, haha, you had a .pdf of the new manual, although it felt evil to take without consulting Tim Paterek. How much better is the new one, anyway? I'm considering using it as a starting board....

But for now, I'll read through the old one, thank you so much for putting it up!

-Nick

How much better is the new one, anyway?

-Nick
The current version is orders of magnitude better; it's much better organized and has a lot more content including many photos and drawings of details glossed over in the earlier versions.

This is indeed fantastic information.

Torch. Regulators. Tanks. Lugs. 4130 tubing. Black Flux. Bronze solder.

And, of course, a book somewhere would be great.

-Nick

One small addendum if you are going to use bronze solder. Order the blue paste flux from Henry James (henryjames.com). It is an excellent flux and gives you ample wiggle room. Use the black flux if you are using silver solder. Once you get torch control you can use the white paste flux or Freddy Parr's flux with silver. The white flux is nice because it is easier to see through and see what is going on underneath the flux. With the black flux you may have to push it around a bit to get a good look-see but it is a small price to pay for the extra insurance when you are just starting out.

I don't think the materials are all that expensive, not compared even to a cheap welded say Surly level frame. Let alone a custom. But you won't save a dime getting into frame building as a hobby. Most expensive tools of any hobby out there, for what you get. We need someone like the President of Grizzly tools to take up framebuilding and get us some BB taps, etc... for 30 bucks.

You can make a decent whole frame out of 4130. I get mine from aircraft spruce. The chromo generic tubes are pretty cheap in butted, Nova sells them and has lots of options that aren't in the catalog. The only part that hurts is that the tubing sets they use for "quality" Asian butted bikes, are about 10 bucks a set according to someone who was posting here, and had far east manufacturing experience. Might sound preposterous, but I have that kind of experience in the knife area, and knives that sell here for 80 bucks and up are bought for about 4 bucks. My local dollar store sells some kind of combo lockback for a buck. Stainless blade, anodized scales, looks nice at the least. So we are getting heavily reamed. Keep in mind these products are heat treated (dollar store not so sure...), which is two steps up from what our tubes are.

We need someone like the President of Grizzly tools to take up framebuilding and get us some BB taps, etc... for 30 bucks.
I don't know if you mentioned him because it has happened before -- he started building guitars. That's why Grizzly sells guitar kits.

Yup, that's why I mentioned it. I build guitars too. Woodworking of all sorts was my main craft for a long time, though that draws one into metalwork since it is fun to make or modify tools, make fixtures, and some hardware. The Grizzly guy also did some gunsmithing, and as a result added several gunsmithing lathes to the line-up. This guy could snap in our direction at any moment. Time to send him the Paternek videos!

This deserves to be a sticky.

When buying a torch, what should a beginner consider?

I'm assuming any beginner wants to buy good equipment. You can buy something like a Victor kit with regulators, torch, hoses and other things for a little over $200. Or you can buy an "aircraft" torch like a Smith AW1A and tips for just under $200. Good regulators and lightweight teflon hoses will get you up in the $500 range before you are ready to braze. Esab and Victor make similar torches. The difference is weight and convenience. Lightweight torches make heat control a lot easier; you can flick the flame away quickly. These torches have the valves up at the tip end, that makes adjustments a lot easier, and the knobs don't get in the way. I've done a lot of work with a huge WWII era military surplus torch. Not an easy thing to deal with.

You're assuming too much

there are some people that are serious about craft and want to use good tools. For them, this is a very common question. If someone wants to do things as cheaply as possible, there is a search function.

The full answer to "what torch" can be found here (http://search.bikelist.org/beta/TreeView.aspx?id=302669)

there are some people that are serious about craft and want to use good tools. For them, this is a very common question. If someone wants to do things as cheaply as possible, there is a search function.

The full answer to "what torch" can be found here (http://search.bikelist.org/beta/TreeView.aspx?id=302669)

Sadly my browser displays that link as:

http://web.me.com/awcg/iWeb/Springwood/Photos%202_files/Screen%20shot%202009-10-09%20at%2012.25.jpg

I dunno, it came up for me at work with IE and shows up here with Safari. I feel your pain though- a lot of times I get to read comments on pictures and all I can see are little Xs.

Sadly my browser displays that link as:

<gibberish>

Allen, here's what I got using IE:

Doug Fattic
Subject: [Frame] Torch handles
Date: 3/26/2008 9:57:45 PM
List: Framebuilders

I see that my chart did contain a mistake on the published length of the Victor J28 torch handle. I reported it was 8 1/2 inches long but when I double checked in the Victor catalog, it is 6" long. So the revised chart should read:

Manufacturer Weight length
Smith AW1A 6 1/8 oz 5 3=8E4=B2
Victor J28 8 1=8E2 oz 6=B2
Harris 15-3 8 oz 5 3=8E4=B2
Purox (sold by Esab) W200 8 oz 6 1=8E2=B2
Uniweld 71 8 oz 6=B2

The light weight of the Smith is why it is my first choice. I thought about including the Victor J40 which is essentially a handle just long enough for knobs and a tip holder. It doesn't have enough length for the hand which would also cover part of the hose as well. It may be what someone would want but that percentage would be small so I don't have it on my list of recommended torch handles. The Meco also has a flat short handle with the knobs pointing towards the tip (instead of coming out of the sides like every other handle). One of my students brought one and liked it but again its unusual shape means a low percentage would probably prefer it so again I left it off my recommend list.

I should also add that the hose connections can either be the smaller (and therefore lighter) "A" or the bigger "B'. Since we are more interested in brazing than demolishing ocean liners, the smaller and lighter hose attachment makes more sense for what we do.

Essentially what we are after are handles with knobs at the top (where the tip is instead of the bottom where the hose attaches) with A hose fittings. These are usually referred to as "aircraft" handles so there smaller size can get into tighter spaces.

On my setup, I have a 3/16" rubber hose (there are bigger ones) with B connections coming off the regulator. I have a Kevlar A and B hose with the A end attached to my Smith AW1A torch and the 2 B ends of the 2 hoses connected with a B attachment fitting. I have the hose going to the ceiling from the regulators so that the Kevlar hose is not dragging on the floor. A drop of hot flux will burn right through it.

Doug Fattic
Niles, Michigan

Thanks Stan.

This is indeed fantastic information.

Torch. Regulators. Tanks. Lugs. 4130 tubing. Black Flux. Bronze solder.

And, of course, a book somewhere would be great.

-Nick

Not a book, but you might find this thread useful;

http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=399311

Not a book, but you might find this thread useful;

http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=399311

That thread is now a sticky here in Framebuilding.

The green ACE IR glasses were/are the single most important thing I purchased a year ago when I was exactly where you are. They let you see through the IR flare of the flame and you can actually see what is happening with the puddle. They are like having xray vision:

http://www.visionarysupplies.com/store/searchresult.aspx?CategoryID=340

And, like xray vision, they aren't cheap.

A couple of other points: Call Henry James and get the blue paste flux and the gas flux rod in 1/16". Clean the rod with sandpaper before you use it. Clean the tubes inside and out prior to brazing. Clean the sanded tubes with picklex20 or acetone, or thinner or something before brazing. When brazing, follow the rod with the torch. Stop to reposition the work often...use gravity to your advantage. You want to keep the puddle in that state between liquid and solid. Adjust the flame so there is a nice defined cone within the flame. Get right in there with the flame...nice and close. Of course, preheat the whole joint to get the brass flowing. Remember the brass will follow the heat, so you can pull it around once it gets going.

Do a bunch of practice joints. Then make something. A kid's bike. A ladder. A chair...anything. Make something to match the dimensions you've perviously laid out.

Practice filing miters. Keeping the miters in the center of the tube and in the correct phase from end to end, and at the correct angle. Get a protractor.

Practice filing your fillets with a small, fine bastard file. Keep the file on the brass...try not to nick the tube. Once it is close to fair, use sandpaper wrapped around the file to finalize the fillet shape.

Then save up some $$$ (beyond the ones you've already laid out for torch/tank/regulator setup and files and raw materials and measuring tools and a vice). Get a surface plate...look on Craigslist. You need like 2' X 3' at least. You already have a workstand right? Resist the urge to buy a fancy-pants jig (you're out of $$$ anyway). Build jigless...solving the alignment issues is part of the learning. Bring this frame to the LBS to get the HT reamed and faced and the BB threads chased.

Save some more $$$ for the BB threader/facer and the HT reamer/facer and the dropout alignment tool. Dream up fixtures to help you build the frame off of your surface plate...you can make them for far cheaper than buying a jig.

Plan on spending hours daydreaming about framebuilding. I'm designing frame #11 now. It's an addiction!

B

a couple of questions... i figured i would ask them here since they don't really warrant their own thread.

do i need a jig? i want to make more than a few bike frames, and possibly sell one or two at some point (after a ton of practice obviously). i want to make bike frames out of not only lugged steel, but aluminum as well. i also want to use oversized and aero-shaped tubing (after a ton of practice, obviously). will i need a jig to be able to weld aluminum frames, and will i need a special / weird jig for the oversized/shaped tubing?

if i do need a jig, what should my jig be?

i really want to build a frame out of aero aluminum tubing. this is obviously not how i'm going to start with building frames, i am learning TIG welding first and will practice mitering 1,000,000 aluminum and steel joints before i try a frame. but what's needed to build bikes with weird tube profiles, out of aluminum no less?

There is a book. Richard P. Talbot; Designing and Building Your Own Frameset 2d ed 1984. It was self published and is now out of print. Some libraries still have a copy and it is available on E bay at ridiculous prices. Richard Talbot used to live in Needham, MA, but moved away in the mid nineties and I have not been able to find out what has happened to him. I recommend it as a book to read before attempting to build a frame, or having a custom frame built for you.

Hi man,

I think you should go back to school buddy. Weld first and then think about it because it's a real skill, it's a lovely idea but there is a **** load to do, to learn. Forget the cost at the moment. A good friend of mine builds frames, may he could help you but he lives in Perth, Western Australia. You need your gas bottles, a jig, materials, space i.e. workshop and a steady hand! etc. etc. Don't give up the fight! Steel is real!

Bryan

I agree with old and new on learning first things first. Welding/brazing - learn it. Be Professional grade. Learn to be the best you can be. Weld shop...local college or trade school. So what if it takes you a course or two...you will learn how not to screw up ANYTHING you buy. You will also learn all about all of the metals you will be working with and methods to make them be what you want. (and become a "tweakMaster" by fudging here and there on the tricky stuff)

I plan on doing the same after finishing my degree this year. I am considering machine shop also to learn how to make my own lugs and bb. I know a guy who did same thing as I suggested to you...he has his own custom Ironworks shop now making custom fencing. He isn't there half the time...as he has employees who work for him. He trained them all...and lets them do the work for them. Not bad for junior college weld shop and a little motivation!

i have a question regarding the best way to scribe my miter lines at various angles; where the down tube connects to the head tube for example. i am GTAW welding a steel frame, so i can use the inside of a lug to get my miter lines.
Any suggestion would be helpful

i have a question regarding the best way to scribe my miter lines at various angles; where the down tube connects to the head tube for example. i am GTAW welding a steel frame, so i can use the inside of a lug to get my miter lines.
Any suggestion would be helpful

tubemiter.exe (http://www.ozhpv.org.au/shed/tubemiter.htm) is a Windows program that prints miter patterns that are then taped to the end of the tube to mark the miter lines. Inputs are miter angle, wall thickness of tube being mitered, and tubing diameters of both the mitered tube and the mating tube.

wow, sounds great... thanks alot

Some great resources in here, thank you.

I've been researching this a bit lately and have been compiling a bit of a resource list on Google Docs.
Here's a link
https://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AWKmFLqejrexZGdmNnBxeHpfMjFjN3Y2ajhzcg&hl=en
Add links you want with a brief description.

going to get some contact info for a local builder today.

to practice using lugs, buy some 1"x.035" wall tubing and some 1 1/8 x .058 wall tubing. Cut the 1 1/8" into pieces, clean them up and braze them onto the 1" tube. If you are a rank beginner, you may want to cut some 1/4" or 1/2" pieces of the 1 1/8" and use those until the process clicks. You should be able to do this with 1" or 2" long sleeves before moving on. As always, everything should be clean and you should start with shiny or sandblasted metal. A degreaser followed by a die grinder or a Dremel with a 1/2" drum sander will clean things up sufficiently. You are looking to pull the braze material from one side of the small piece to the other. Only feed from one side of the sleeve. This is how lugs and crowns should be done anyway, so start doing it now. When you are done, soak the flux off and section the assembly to see if you got full penetration. Just pulling from one side to the other doesn't mean you got full penetration, you have to make sure to feed radially around the sleeve as well. You can feed from multiple points around the circumference to avoid using up all the flux in one area.