Professional Cycling For the Fans - Indurain vs. Armstrong

Both were the dominate time trial riders of their time. My question is, putting aside different equipment, who was the better TT rider?

To me it's a toss up.

Hard to say, but I'd give the slight nod to Indurain. I've never seen Lance totally defeat the competition the way Indurain did, putting 3+ minutes over the 2nd place riders, etc.

But then again I have to wonder if we've even seen Lance give an all-out effort, like on Saturday's ITT he put 47 seconds on the field at the first time check, which then stayed much more steady (growing about what, 20 seconds for the rest of the 30+km). Which is the smart way to ride the TT when you are so far ahead, why risk going down or missing a corner. Last years final ITT was going to be a hell of a run, and if I'm not mistaken before Jan's crash (and before the more complex piece of the course) those two guys were pushing LeMond's record for a much longer course.

I guess we'll know a little better if/when Lance decides to go for the hour record.

Andrew

It's really close. Both are the best time trialists in the history of the Tour, I'd say.

I really can't choose. Too bad they could never go head to head in their primes.

Indurain.. why?

Year 1984

Team Reynolds
3rd.- Criterium Community of Navarra (Spain)


Year 1985

Team Reynolds
2nd.- Route of the Sun (Spain)


Year 1986

Team Reynolds
1st.- Tour of l' Avenir (France)
1st.- Tour of Murcia (Spain)
3rd.- Classic of Zizurkil (Spain)
1st.- Leitza (Spain)


Year 1987

Team Reynolds
3rd.- Week Catalana (Spain)
1st.-Tour of the Minning Valleys (Spain)
1st.- Rise to the Txitxarro (Spain)
1st.- Community of Navarra Trophy (Spain)
1st.- Critérium C.F. of Navarra (Spain)
2nd.- Great Award of Bilbao (Spain)


Year 1988

Team Reynolds
1st.- Tour of Cataluña (Spain)
2nd.- Jové-les-Tours (France)
3rd.- Tour of Galicia (Spain)
2nd.- Great Award of Bilbao (Spain)


Year 1989

Team Reynolds
1st.- París-Niza (France)
1st.- International Criterium
2nd.- Rise to the Naranco (Spain)
1st.- Criterium Community of Navarra (Spain)


Year 1990

Team Banesto
3rd.- Spanish National Championship
1st.- San Sebastian Classic (Spain)
3rd.- Flecha Valona (Italy)
1st.- París-Niza (France)
1st.- Critérium of Tarnos (Italy)
3rd.- Tour of País Vasco (Spain)
3rd.- Tour of Asturias (Spain)
3rd.- Tour of Burgos (Spain)


Year 1991

Team Banesto
1st.- Tour de France (France)
2nd.- Vuelta a España (Spain)
3rd.- World Professional Road Race Championship
1st.- Tour of Vaulcluse (France)
1st.- Tour of Cataluña (Spain)
3rd.- Bicycle Vasca (Spain)
1st.- Rise to the Arrete (Spain)
3rd.- Criterium Community of Navarra (Spain)
1st.- Cinturón of Ronda (Spain)


Year 1992

Team Banesto
1st.- Tour de France (France)
1st.- Giro d' Italia (Italy)
1st.- Spanish National Championship
3rd.- París-Niza (France)
2nd.- Tour of Romandia (France)
3rd.- Tour of l'Oise (France)
1st.- Tour of Cataluña (Spain)
2nd.- Criterium Community of Navarra (Spain)


Year 1993

Team Banesto
1st.- Tour de France (France)
1st.- Giro d' Italia (Italy)
2nd.- World Professional Road Race Championship
2nd.- Spanish National Championship
3rd.- Tour of Levante (Spain)
1st.- Tour of los Puertos (Spain)
1st.- Challenge Castilla-León (Spain)


Year 1994

Team Banesto
1st.- Tour de France (France)
3rd.- Giro d' Italia (Italy)
1st.- Tour of l'Oise (France)
2nd.- Tour of Levante (Spain)
World Hour Record: 53.040 kms.
Spanish National Record for 10 kms. - 11.20.097 h.
Spanish National Record for 20 kms. - 22.38.510 h.


Year 1995

Team Banesto
1st.- Tour de France (France)
2nd.- World Professional Road Race Championship
1st.- World Individual Time Trial Championship
1st.- Dauphiné Liberé (France)
1st.- Midi-Libre (France)
2nd.- Colorado Cyclist Classic Stage Race (USA)
1st.- Critérium of Moscow (Russia)
3rd.- Tour of Asturias (Spain)
1st.- Tour of Galicia (Spain)
3rd.- Tour of the Minning Valleys (Spain)
1st.- Tour of La Rioja (Spain)


Year 1996

Team Banesto
1st.- Dauphiné Liberé (France)
1st.- Tour of the Alentejo (Spain)
1st.- Bicycle Vasca (Spain)
1st.- Tour of Asturias (Spain)
Gold Medal CRI of the Olimpic Games Atlanta '96 (USA)
1º XXI Criterium Ciutat de L'Hospitalet (Spain)
1º VIII Criterium Community of Navarra (Spain)
1º V Critérium of Valladolid City (Spain)
1º VII Internacional Criterium Community of Valencia (Spain)
2º Criterium Sport and Life in Fuenlabrada (Spain)
2º Los Puertos Classic. (Spain)
2º Tour of Burgos (Spain)
2º Criterium of Malaga City (Spain)

Wow.

Thanks for putting that all into perspective. Looks like he could have gone on for longer if he felt like it. The older Indurain got, the more races he did well in!

Koffee

I think you guys missed the point.

Laggard asked who was the better TT rider (time trialist for the uninformed). Not the better all around rider or who has the better palmares.

Indurain did have the advantage of unlimited technolgy, but Armstrong has limits on the frame geometry and weight.

I think you guys missed the point.

Laggard asked who was the better TT rider (time trialist for the uninformed). Not the better all around rider or who has the better palmares.

Thanks, Devil.

Indurain was like an Ullrich without the bad habits- skinnier, more dedicated, all power. Tough to back against in long races and also good in prologue-type sprints. Armstrong is probably the better all-rounder, would probably shade him on hillier tests and almost certainly take the mountain TT's.

If my life depended on the outcome, I'd............

wait and look at the course profile;-)

Both were the dominate time trial riders of their time. My question is, putting aside different equipment, who was the better TT rider?

To me it's a toss up.

Indurain...but not by much. I don't think Armstrong could do the hour like Indo, and on the flats Indurain looked like a locomotive...

On a flat TT course my nod would go to Indurain. I don't think anyone
put out the pure power that he does.
On an uphill or roller type of TT, pretty much a toss up.
If it were L'Alpe D'Huez, or Ventoux Armstrong by a large margin,
Big Mig was able to hang on in the mountains but never dominated.

As for Big Mig's dominance and huge time gaps over 2nd, etc. I don't
seem to recall any other big TT riders of the time. Is this perhaps
why he seemed so dominant?

Marty

Lotek...

don't forget Tony Rominger. Good TT guy and hour record holder.

Didn't get much change from Indurain, though!

Armstrong is definitely stronger on the moutain but Indurain even if he could, he wouldnt break away and leave everyone behind. He normally had a big time advantage once the mountain came or he knew he would make it up on the ITT. Many times he could have won or step up the tempo in the climb but he usually never did it and many many times he let the other guy take the stage - like Armstrong did with Basso (but without saying he let them win). He didnt have the take it all approach that Lance has, so he saved himself in the mountains, i dont think we will ever know how good he could have been there.

Lotek...

don't forget Tony Rominger. Good TT guy and hour record holder.

Didn't get much change from Indurain, though!

Forgot about Rominger, I was thinking Tour only. . . Doh!

Marty

Both were the dominate time trial riders of their time. My question is, putting aside different equipment, who was the better TT rider?

To me it's a toss up.

I would say a toss up as well
Both were very consistantly dominant, in comparison to their rivals, and their TT rivals in particular.

I think you guys missed the point.
Seems like you missed the point of all the other posts. Sounds to me like they were discussing the thread as intended: TTs. Not sure where you get the "Overall" and the "Palmeres" listing was to show all of Indurain's TT wins as support for the argument that he's better. Maybe I read a different thread...

Anyway, Indurain, defintely, but Lance would be a tough contender...

Threres no use comparing them. Very different kind of racers, different type of men.

Indurain is a peasant boy coming from and going back behind the wheel of the family tractor and his general manners are like that. Always meek and modest, with a kind smile of the simple villageman. Phisically he is just a tremenous build with the lungs and heart of a bison. And avoiding misunderstandings, he can break away even in the mountains, remember the 1995 Alpe D'Huez stage, when chasing Alex Zülle. And never was a one task rider. Not compareable with a boy living just from the start only of sports for sports and sports cars.

And for a word to what is greatness: remember the 1995 road world championship. Breaking away (again) with Abraham Olano, who had a flat tyre in the last kms. Riding together Indurain pulled his breaks before the line. Giving somebody weaker a world championship for respect is something Armstrong could never imagine, he is too much a cruel professional for that.

I have followed both Armstrong and Indurain closely during their careers. I am a big fan of both these riders. I am of the opinion that Indurain was a much better time trialist..and Lance is a better climber. I'm not sure how they would fare against one another if both could meet on equal terms in a tour..both in their prime. My guess is that the Indurain we saw in the 1992 Tour de France was perhaps unbeatable. It's very close..but I say Indurain was a better time trialer. It was Indurains time trialing that won him so many races. He simply followed in the mountains. Lance attacks in the mountains...as he did in the 2003 race(when Ullrich didn't wait for him when he went down)

Lest we forget..Greg lemond has ridden the fastest time trial of all time...1989

I'd have to say Indurain was the better TT rider. He more than crushed the competition.

also..it was Indurain's climbing that failed him in the '96 Tour...but it was his time trialing that won him the Olypic Gold medal just a few months removed from his crushing defeat in the tour. Again...Lance is a far better climber. Doesn't Lance hold the record for climbing Alpe 'dHuez?..and Indurain went up that climb many times and never set the(37 minutes) record.

I could be wrong but I think Pantani still holds the Alpe 'dHuez record and it was not a time trial when he set it.

Pantini still holds the record on the Alpe D Huez

I could be wrong but I think Pantani still holds the Alpe 'dHuez record and it was not a time trial when he set it.

It was a road stage, but how doped up was he?

Marco never tested positive for anything!

Marco never tested positive for anything!


I believe he was not aloud to race because his hemocrit levels were too high, way too high. I believe that elevated hemocrit levels are a sign of epo usage.

Outdoor time trials can be hard to compare unless both riders race the same course on the same day. The condition of a road changes, the wind changes, the weather changes. There were several years when both of them competed in the Tour de France, and in other races. Lance was in the early stages of his career, and not the rider he is today.

Was there ever a TT where Indurain and Armstrong raced on the same course, on the same day, and Armstrong beat Indurain?

The attempt for the "one hour record" may be a more accurate comparison between the two. It will be indoors, on a very high quality track. Weather, wind, and road conditions will not be a factor. Just a rider, a bike, and a clock.

As I sat spinning my my rollers this morning I had an small epiphany :p
If they really want to measure the hour accurately why don't they do it on rollers....or a Lifecycle for that matter (ok I'm being a little sarcastic but...). If you just want to measure how much ground a man can cover on a bicycle and even out (as much as possible) all the other variables, then have them ride rollers. Wheel size should be kept the same, gearing can be riders choice, much as it is now. The roller cylinder diameter would have to be standardized for future attempts. You don't need skin suits and aero bars, just a rider, his bike, and a really accurate cyclocomputer..... ;)

Sounds silly but I think the whole "Hour" thing is silly anyways....ride your bike or enter a race with other competitors..... :rolleyes:

My Two Cents..... :D

Lance was the one taking cadence advice from Indurain, not the other way around, and it changed his career. ;)

in 1992, Big Mig won the Giro and the Tour...

on the 9th stage TT of the TdF, he covered the first 20km at over 62kph (38.5mph) putting 4 or 5 seconds a km on everyone. He beat his major rivals by 4 minutes or more. (4 min on Roche and Lemond, 4:30 on Zulle, and 4:52 on Delgado)

And then, on the 19th stage, despite the nearly 3 weeks of hard racing, he rode the final 64km time trial at an average speed of 52.349kph

yeah, 39.7 miles at an average speed of 32.51mph, alone.


In 1994 he placed 3rd in the Giro and won the TdF. during stage 9, another 64km time trial, he put 2 minutes on Rominger and more than 5 minutes on Chris Boardman, who finished 5th!


I did a quick search for LA's time trial times, and most are in the 48-49kph range, and the courses are shorter too. LA did go 53.98kph for 58km but the tailwinds are mentioned in the race report.



Considering Big Mig was setting his best times on a steel framed funny bike with bull horns and clip ons. My vote goes to the man Navarre...

Remember, Lemond went 54.545kph for 24.5km to win the TdF by 8 seconds on the final day (33.89mph for 15.22 miles)

This will blow your mind...

The winning speed in the 120km time trial in the 1948 Tdf was 41kph (25.47mph)

Not solely about time trials, but still fun (they give Indurain the lead over Armstrong on the TT's, though I think they'd say Anquetil was better than either):

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/other_sports/cycling/tour_de_france_2003/3102027.stm

Or dehydration.

Panatani's hematocrit was just over 50% when he was taken out of the Giro. There's a lot of factors that will cause a variance in the level, and some people are naturally over 50%. Pantani tested within limits the year he set the record. A lot of riders went up before him over the years who were doped to the gills and couldn't come close to his time.

He was simply one of the greatest climbers ever. And he also could turn in some excellent TT rides when he needed to.

As for the TT question, Indurain crushed Lance (passed him and left him) in one of Lance's early TDF appearances. Lance is a very good TT rider, but Indurain was a machine, and at his best took huge amounts of time out of the rest of the field.

However, if they raced today, I think Lance would win :)

I agree that he was one of the greatest climbers ever. It's a shame how he ended up especially when you see others who were caught doping, Virenque for instance, come back and continue to have sucess and be adored by fans.

Watching a good climbers duel in the mountains is my absolute favorite thing to see :D :D
It is such a purely athletic contest, "I'm going...can you follow me ??"
However, my appreciation is based heavily on having been all the characters in the above equation, the leader, the follower, the dropped :(
I think that is in part why cycling hasn't gotten a bigger following in the States.

I've played the 2000 TDF Ventoux stage for folks who don't know much about cycling. With a little explanation they start to understand the tactics and effort. By time Lance and Marco take off their jaw is on the floor. Those back and forth duels are the sports finest moments, and I haven't seen a better one than that, though I keep looking :D

Last year I road an ITT on a really hilly course. The best rider in my division started right behind me and caught me on the second big climb. For the rest of the course (I think it was 22 miles total) we went back and forth, I could catch and pass him on the flats and downhills, he'd kill me going up. We swapped back and forth 8-10 times, doing it legit (no drafting). We passed everybody that started in front of us. In the end he beat me on time by a minute and change and on the course by those seconds. I took second overall. Racing against each other we both pushed ourselves harder than if we had been alone. It was the most fun I had had in a long time.

You know I've never raced and have never really wanted to because I all I heard about was how many crashes there are and I don't have to money to be rebuilding and/or replacing my (for me @ $1300) rather expensive bike. But an ITT might be fun to try....especially a hilly one like you described.....Your ITT was part of a larger event ???

I believe he was not aloud to race because his hemocrit levels were too high, way too high. I believe that elevated hemocrit levels are a sign of epo usage.

Pantani should have hired Mechele Ferrari (doctor dope) as his doctor like Lance then his hematocrit would have been bang on .5 :p

read Smoothie104 post... Armstrong is NOT IN THE SAME LEAGUE as Indurain in a ITT... it's not even close... Armstrong is not even in Rominger's league and Indurain destroyed Rominger, so why is this even open for discussion?

Indurain was................. skinnier, )

I once turned on the TV to see a very sickly looking, under fed guy lying on a bed, and I thought it was another story on famine in Africa, but it was Indurain having his pre-Tour physical!

Indurain destroyed Rominger, ?

I'm no expert, but is this true? Didn't Rominger whoop Indurain in a few time trials in Tours?

And I'm not sure Indurain was at his best in 1994, but Rominger WHOOPED him in 'the hour record' by over 2.2km.

http://www.bikecult.com/bikecultbook/sports_recordsHour.html (great site)

I'm no expert, but is this true? Didn't Rominger whoop Indurain in a few time trials in Tours?

And I'm not sure Indurain was at his best in 1994, but Rominger WHOOPED him in 'the hour record' by over 2.2km.

http://www.bikecult.com/bikecultbook/sports_recordsHour.html (great site)


1993 represented Tony's best chance. Him and Zenon Jaskula led Mig a merry dance in the mountains. Tony beat Mig in the final TT in the polka-dot jersey, but the result was pretty much decided already barring mishap.

so, he only beat him once?

so, he only beat him once?


I think so....but we're going way back here. It's a bit foggy. :D

The Campag teams were still using downtube shifters in 1993??!!!!
I forgot about that. When did Campag go Ergo?

http://www.bobmina.com/1993_TourDeFrance.htm

The Campag teams were still using downtube shifters in 1993??!!!!
I forgot about that. When did Campag go Ergo?

http://www.bobmina.com/1993_TourDeFrance.htm

1992...prototypes in 1991 I think. But some riders were still "old skool" after that.

But some riders were still "old skool" after that.

bloody Europeans :D

remember the 1995 Alpe D'Huez stage, when chasing Alex Zülle.

I was just talking about that Big Mig breakaway last Sunday [ was lucky to be invited to a "Tour of Flanders" party (I don't have OLN) ]...!

yeah, 39.7 miles at an average speed of 32.51mph, alone.

That's it, I officially suck as a bike rider :(. Damn, Big Mig sure could haul ass. Add another vote for Big Mig.