Long Distance Competition/Ultracycling, Randonneuring and Endurance Cycling - Informal comparison: 23mm v. 28mm tires.

I have been riding almost exclusively on Continental Gatorskins 23mm (true measure) and wanted to try some 28mm tires of the same model (actual measure 27mm). So I put a pair on one of my bikes. While the test involved two different bikes, both are of the same material and have the same setup and virtually idential components. The result is that, while riding some of my better known routes, there is no significant difference in speed. I am slow under any circumstances. Just from "feel,", I might hypothesize that acceleration and climbing might be a bit slower, but that could be entirely an incorrect perception based on the additional stability and cush the 28's provide. In other words, if it feels less twitchy, it must be slower.

Tire pressures?

OK, speed's the same, but what about comfort? Obvious differences, or negligible? Same forks, etc., on both bikes?

Tire pressure -- 23mm at 120, 28mm at 115.

23mm on carbon fork. 28mm on steel cyclocross fork.

28mm more stable and somewhat more comfortable.

You should consider setting the 28mm tire pressure to something more reasonable. Depending on your weight, say not much over 200#s, you can probably get down to 90 or 95 without any loss in speed and much greater comfort.

The Gatorskins are like running wooden tires so you are not going to find a super comfortable ride there anyway, but you should feel a distinct difference between the 23 and 28.

Later,
HB

You should consider setting the 28mm tire pressure to something more reasonable. Depending on your weight, say not much over 200#s, you can probably get down to 90 or 95 without any loss in speed and much greater comfort.

The Gatorskins are like running wooden tires so you are not going to find a super comfortable ride there anyway, but you should feel a distinct difference between the 23 and 28.

Later,
HB

I'm about 165 and will try it.

With a 5 lb. pressure difference and a 20% width difference, your 28c tires are actually less comfortable than your 23c, having less deflection, and may well have a lower rolling resistance than the 23c, due to the lower deflection. To secure a similar deflection with a 20% wider tire, you would reduce pressure by that same 20%, or about the 95 lbs. that is being suggested. Your comfort would then be about the same as on the narrower tire, with rolling resistance only slightly higher. The wider tire will, however, be less sensitive to variations in road surface, such as cracks and gravel.

You may also have exceeded your rim pressure limit with the 28c - you have to look that up or query the manufacturer.

For the best tire size discussion I've seen on these forums, try:
http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=537756
This link is on the Tandem forum, and includes a discussion of pinch flats. Pinch flats should be largely irrelevant on our singles, because our tire sizes and pressures have been adjusted over the past 100 years to prevent them. However, I think the theory of tire and pressure choices is well argued.

Your reports illustrate how subjective road feel is. I cannot tell a 23c tire from a 25c tire, both being inflated to secure the same deflection, either on my single or tandem.

might want to check out this handy PDF from BQ (http://www.vintagebicyclepress.com/images/TireDrop.pdf) about tire drop / pressure

might want to check out this handy PDF from BQ (http://www.vintagebicyclepress.com/images/TireDrop.pdf) about tire drop / pressure

Not just the tire pressure. Gatorskins are also rated as amongst the slower and least lively tires in BQ reviews. If the OP lives where goatheads are problem, I can understand why they'd be used. If not, I'd be looking for something that are faster and give a better ride. Even the lowly Pasela (the original is faster than Tourguard) would seem an improvement. I recently switched wheelsets on a bike from 23mm tubulars, to clinchers with 26mm Grand Bois. The difference in feel was mind-boggling, and the speed difference was perceptible.

Try 85 on the back and 75-80 on the front.

Not just the tire pressure. Gatorskins are also rated as amongst the slower and least lively tires in BQ reviews. If the OP lives where goatheads are problem, I can understand why they'd be used. If not, I'd be looking for something that are faster and give a better ride. Even the lowly Pasela (the original is faster than Tourguard) would seem an improvement. I recently switched wheelsets on a bike from 23mm tubulars, to clinchers with 26mm Grand Bois. The difference in feel was mind-boggling, and the speed difference was perceptible.

I live in AZ where goatheads rule.

I think the theory of tire and pressure choices is well argued.

Several of the posts in that thread were from folks that could not even mount the wider tires on their bikes due to clearance issues. Consequently there were many strong opinions expressed from folks who have no experience actually riding a wider, high performance, tire.

Garbage in garbage out.

You should consider setting the 28mm tire pressure to something more reasonable. Depending on your weight, say not much over 200#s, you can probably get down to 90 or 95 without any loss in speed and much greater comfort.

The Gatorskins are like running wooden tires so you are not going to find a super comfortable ride there anyway, but you should feel a distinct difference between the 23 and 28.

Later,
HB

I've had a pretty decent ride from 28 mm Gatorskins 90/85 f/r, weighing around 180#. If this is a wooden tire, I think I'll really like a less wooden one. What are some better tires, in your opinion?

I've had a pretty decent ride from 28 mm Gatorskins 90/85 f/r, weighing around 180#. If this is a wooden tire, I think I'll really like a less wooden one. What are some better tires, in your opinion?

in the same manuf - conti gp 4 seasons, in a '28' (26.6 to 27.5 depending on rim / inflation)

also the standard pasela (non tourguard) in a 28 or 30...

and then step into some GB's or challenge tires (http://www.vintagebicyclepress.com/Tires.html)

I ride 28mm Gatorskins at 112psi (225 pound rider) and haven't found them to be uncomfortable. If it's my tires which are slowing me down, then I'd never know since I haven't used any other tire on this bike. It happens to be my commuter as well as brevet bike, and to deal with the glass shrapnel and other such common curb-grit I prefer to have the protection of the Gatorskins.

The only time I notice they're slow feeling is when I have a pair like I do now: About 3500 miles on the rear tire, and the center patch is getting pretty squared off. When I sit back to spin up a hill, I can feel how massive the contact patch is, and how it's slowing me down!

I've had a pretty decent ride from 28 mm Gatorskins 90/85 f/r, weighing around 180#. If this is a wooden tire, I think I'll really like a less wooden one. What are some better tires, in your opinion?

The Rivendell Ruffy Tuffy 27c has a much better ride than the gatorskins.

I might hypothesize that acceleration and climbing might be a bit slower, but that could be entirely an incorrect perception based on the additional stability and cush the 28's provide. In other words, if it feels less twitchy, it must be slower. There's always a lot more to "tire talks" than tires.

As several readers have noted, tire pressure, as well as the "load" affect a tire's performance. And unfortunately - that really is just the "beginning" of all the factors that contribute to how we all perceive "the roll" of a given bicycle.

In addition to the previously mentioned factors, any examination of tires and handling needs to consider the tire/tube/rim matrix. This isn't science fiction; the size, thickness and weight of the inner-tube has a direct bearing on a tire's characteristics. And the type, width and depth of a rim affect how the side-wall of a given tire is stressed.

Go ahead and have your chat about tires, but remember - there are a combination of factors beyond the actual tire behavior contributing to what each cyclist experiences. Your mileage, like my advice, may vary.

I always found comparable tires from Michelin, Vredestein and Vittoria rode better than Continental. I just ordered a set of Vittoria Rubino Pro in 28 mm. No experience with them yet, but I will make sure I post the comparison with Continental 4000 in 25 I have currently and Pasela TG in 32 that I have on my other 2 bikes. I do not see the difference in ride quality between Pasela and Pasela TG.

I suspect if there is a performance difference between 23's and 28's, it's too small to measure (let alone matter) unless you have a very strict testing method or are in a highly competitive state of mind. Since you're running Gatorskins, I'm going to assume the latter isn't the case. ;)

I would also assume that if it is correct that the 28's at the same pressure have less rolling resistance, they also increase drag; the two likely offset one another, or at least narrow the advantage.

Even if you had a fairly refined testing scenario, if the event is *cough* relatively short (e.g. a typical century) it's going to be a tiny improvement, possibly still too small to reliably isolate and measure, let alone have an impact; and if the event is long enough you will likely spend enough time at the controls and breaks to wash out any small performance advantages. E.g. in PBP, in theory and under optimal conditions, using skinny tires might save you 20 minutes (out of 80 hours). However the average PBP rider will spend 15-20 hours at the controls. An extra hour of sleep somewhere along the line will easily outweigh the minor improvements of something like tire width.

Consider my experiences -

Gatorskins are not fast or comfortable tires, regardless of width or inflation. I use them in 25mm width at 100psi on the single speed for commuting and stuff. Because they are tough and last (sort of). The other road bike gets 26mm GB Cerfs. The GB tires replaced 23mm Vitoria Rubino Pros (run at 115psi) and 25mm GP 4000s (run at 105 psi) I had used previously. Here's what happened: The bike now handles better, rides smoother and faster, and there is no increase in the occurrence of flats. They also weigh less and cost about the same or less than the other tires I've used.

I have been riding almost exclusively on Continental Gatorskins 23mm (true measure) and wanted to try some 28mm tires of the same model (actual measure 27mm). So I put a pair on one of my bikes. While the test involved two different bikes, both are of the same material and have the same setup and virtually idential components. The result is that, while riding some of my better known routes, there is no significant difference in speed. I am slow under any circumstances. Just from "feel,", I might hypothesize that acceleration and climbing might be a bit slower, but that could be entirely an incorrect perception based on the additional stability and cush the 28's provide. In other words, if it feels less twitchy, it must be slower.

In real-world conditions (i.e. the typically rough roads with chipseal etc. that randonneurs ride on) the most-recent issue of Bicycle Quarterly shows fairly conclusively that wider tires at lower pressure are more efficient (i.e. faster for a given wattage output) for randonneuring-style riding than narrow tires at high pressures, while not giving up any efficiency on smooth roads. (For racing, this efficiency result is offset by the fact that the higher rotating mass makes a big difference in ability to change speed, as in a breakaway or sprint, and the wider tires generate notably higher aerodynamic resistance at high racing speeds, thus making a difference to actually winning races.)

For a noncompetitive, self-supported long-distance bike-riding sport like randonneuring, where we are often on crappy road surfaces, wider tires at optimally-low pressures (as shown in the tire-drop chart referred to above) dominate narrow, high-pressure tires, because they are both more efficient and more comfortable.

Nick Bull

Tire pressure -- 23mm at 120, 28mm at 115.
... :eek:

Maybe 80-85 psi.

OP, out of curiosity, why Gatorskins? They are slooooow tires.

Not to hijack the thread, but how do marathon pluses stack up to these other tires as a randonneuring option?

I live in AZ where goatheads rule.

Say no more - didn't notice that before. You have my deepest condolences.

slightly hijacking.

gatorskins aren't too bad imo. i've had good luck with them for commuting. i would keep them around 110psi.

that being said, may i ask what everyone else is running as far as size and pressure? is anyone running something like a 28 or 32 in the 60psi range?

slightly hijacking.

gatorskins aren't too bad imo. i've had good luck with them for commuting. i would keep them around 110psi.

that being said, may i ask what everyone else is running as far as size and pressure? is anyone running something like a 28 or 32 in the 60psi range?

I haven't gone that low. Ran 32's at about 80 psi when I still had the LHT. Currently I'm running Grand Bois 26's at 85-90, and I can coast on/just after downhills and make up ground on people who are pedaling. I'm not so heavy that weight is the reason.

slightly hijacking.

gatorskins aren't too bad imo. i've had good luck with them for commuting. i would keep them around 110psi.

that being said, may i ask what everyone else is running as far as size and pressure? is anyone running something like a 28 or 32 in the 60psi range?

I used to run my 700x35 Marathons at 85psi, I now run them at 50 to 60. No slower that I can tell and they ride a lot nicer. Likewise I've gone from 120psi on my 700x25 fixie tyres (Maxxis Detonators) to 70-80psi and they feel great. I've had no problems so far but I'm pretty light at ~60kgs.

I've had a pretty decent ride from 28 mm Gatorskins 90/85 f/r, weighing around 180#. If this is a wooden tire, I think I'll really like a less wooden one. What are some better tires, in your opinion?

I have no experience with the Gatorskins so can't compare them to anything else.

I have used several different tires from Rivendell, including the Ruffy-Tuffys, and have hated all of them. They roll very slowly and feel lousy.

The Grand Boise Cypres feel wonderful and roll extremely well, but are the most fragile tires I have ever used and so I no longer use them.

The Challenge Parigi-Roubaix is probably the best current tire in the 27-28mm range, IMO.

Being as this is a subjective thread, I will add my experience in this spirit. I have worked my way from 700x23c Conti GP4000 (120psi) to GP4000 25c (110 psi) to 4 Season 28c (95 psi) on the same bike and rims. Using my "standard" chipseal test ride there is less perceived buzz with the 25c's relative to the 23c's but the 25's and 28's are about the same. I think the most tangible benefit of the wider tires is that I have had no rim damage using the 25c's or 28c's whereas I experience occasional rim damage with the 23's.

Gatorskin 25 mm front, Armadillo 25 mm rear on my Roubaix, at 90 and 95 psi, respectively. (And no flats!) Conti City Contact 26x1.5 on my aluminum non-suspension mountain bike, at 60/65 psi. The big City Contact tires are way smoother (and not a lot slower) So much so I'm trying to decide the best option for a road bike running tires like that. LHT? Cross bike?

I've had a pretty decent ride from 28 mm Gatorskins 90/85 f/r, weighing around 180#. If this is a wooden tire, I think I'll really like a less wooden one. What are some better tires, in your opinion?

Jump on almost anything that is a something "pro" tire by Vittoria and you'll find a better ride. For example I run Vittoria Rubino Pro in 28c on one of my long range bikes. I run 90# front and 100# rear. They are quite a bit more comfortable than a 28C Gatorskin at the same pressures. I could probably even run them a bit lower if I wanted without losing on the rollout.

Regards,
HB

I have no experience with the Gatorskins so can't compare them to anything else.

I have used several different tires from Rivendell, including the Ruffy-Tuffys, and have hated all of them. They roll very slowly and feel lousy.

The Grand Boise Cypres feel wonderful and roll extremely well, but are the most fragile tires I have ever used and so I no longer use them.

The Challenge Parigi-Roubaix is probably the best current tire in the 27-28mm range, IMO.

I put a set of Parigi-Roubaix on for about 3 three weeks. I absolutely loved the comfort and road feel of the tires but they are entirely too tender for my use. I got a flat every 25 miles, literally, with those tires. They reminded of the "old days" before tires had kevlar belts to help prevent flats. In fact they don't have any kevlar.

They were replaced with Vittoria Randonnuer Hypers in 35C. I like the Hypers and they brought me back to my normal flat rate of one or so a year. They don't roll as smooth and the Parigi's but I found the Parigi's to roll pretty slow with no air in them. :cry:

Later,
HB

That's a shame. I've had better luck than that, but my experience is very small at this point.

Too bad there are no handmade 27mm tubulars anymore...

I have a set of Vittoria Cross XNs tubulars with diamond tread and latex tubes on my Woodrup now, and they feel nice and cushy at 75/80 psi f/r. They do not roll well.

World Class Cycles now lists a Dugast Paris Roubaix Cotton in 27 mm width, $115 each, and the Vittoria Cross Evo CX Pave in 27 mm, for $92 each. 24 mm Pave's are not reputed to be a free-rolling tire, according to reviews on RoadBikeReview, so I don't expect great things from the 27 mm. Plus there are several Tufo cross tubulars in 28 and 30 mm with diamond tread.

The Vittorias are machine made, and they really aren't nice enough to justify the price, IMO. Tufo, well, you either love 'em or hate 'em in my experience. I'm in the latter camp. Plus all the green tread/black sidewall/red-stripe-in-the-middle nonsense really turns me off.

The Dugasts are perfect, but I understand are no longer being made, so once they're gone...

I got my Vittoria Cross tires at a rock bottom PBK clearance, so no huge investment there. I'd be partial to a set of Dugasts, too. Why do you say they are out of production?

Because everybody says they are out of production. I know Andre Dugast himself retired years ago and the name moved around a bit. Last I heard the equipment was owned by a Dutch interest but no tires were being produced.

But I do find several places still offering them, so maybe there are plenty left, or maybe production has been restarted. I came back to this thread to find the name of the bike shop you posted, so I could go order some!

Because everybody says they are out of production. I know Andre Dugast himself retired years ago and the name moved around a bit. Last I heard the equipment was owned by a Dutch interest but no tires were being produced.

But I do find several places still offering them, so maybe there are plenty left, or maybe production has been restarted. I came back to this thread to find the name of the bike shop you posted, so I could go order some!

Link: http://www.worldclasscycles.com/

Was more worried about if it was a BF rumor, like a lot of the advice that may be given out in these here parts, or if your info came from someone with a decent likelihood of actually knowing, like a good LBS that has tried to carry them, or some such decent source.

Already ordered a pair from World Class. Thanks for reminding me they (the tires) still exist. Guess that's my luxury purchase for the month.

I tried to order some from Yellow Jersey a couple of years back; they were the first to tell me that Andre had quit. Have heard/seen it from a couple of other online shops since then.

Just FWIW, it does still seem as though there's a shortage of Dugast. World Class called me to say they were out and wouldn't get more, although they did offer me a screaming deal on the silk version. I called several other places with websites claiming to have them, only to find out they couldn't get them any more. I finally had success with Cyclocross World, at a price similar to WCs.

The tires are different than when they were all made by Andre. I am used to handmade cotton tires being very easy to mount. These were the toughest to get onto the rims that I have ever used. I almost gave up getting them onto the stretching rims, and even after a week of stretching I still couldn't mount them without slopping some glue onto the sidewalls. They do ride the way they're supposed to, though...

I think people generally run tires with too much air. I run 23 Conti 4000s at 105psi and I weigh 180#. I see no reason to ride them at 120psi. I've never pinch flat at 105psi and the ride quality is so much better. If I went to a 25mm tire I would probably run 90-95psi. More pressure is not better or faster unless you're on a super smooth surface like a track.

Not just the tire pressure. Gatorskins are also rated as amongst the slower and least lively tires in BQ reviews. If the OP lives where goatheads are problem, I can understand why they'd be used. If not, I'd be looking for something that are faster and give a better ride. Even the lowly Pasela (the original is faster than Tourguard) would seem an improvement. I recently switched wheelsets on a bike from 23mm tubulars, to clinchers with 26mm Grand Bois. The difference in feel was mind-boggling, and the speed difference was perceptible.

I haven't tried a Pasela or TG yet, but I have a thread over on iBob asking about the 27 inch versions of these tires. Several respondents have said they prefer the Ultra Gatorskin over the Pasela TG based on riding quality including liveliness. Others swear by the TG and Pasela, but would not pay any more than they sell for. Gators are more $$.

So can anyone comment on GP 4 Seasons? Durable like Gatorskins? Ride like regular GP4000? They are available up to 28mm.

So can anyone comment on GP 4 Seasons? Durable like Gatorskins? Ride like regular GP4000? They are available up to 28mm.

i did... back there.
been running them since late 2005.
23s, 25s, and 28s.
they measure smaller than they are. mine range from 26.6 to 27.5 on mavic open pro rims.

i can't compare them to the others... but they are smooth rolling.
i went 3 years without a road flat.
love the way they feel after they break in a bit.
far nicer than the pasela TG... but i hear the non TG is also nice.

So can anyone comment on GP 4 Seasons? Durable like Gatorskins? Ride like regular GP4000? They are available up to 28mm.

I ran 4 Seasons up to 3500 miles with no flats. I have a second set on the bike now. I think I could have got more miles, but I was in a hurry to try the Continental 4000, that I had stored in my closet. I wouldn't have another set of 4000. After 3 flats and turning square after 2000 miles, beside being all cut up, forget it. Anyhow, I weight 200# and the 4 Seasons are the ones that worked best for me. I'm waiting for a sale to start somewhere, so I can get another set. Man, those tires really went up in price.

That is one of my beefs with Continental tires: they are frigg'n expensive.

Later,
HB

the 4 Seasons are the ones that worked best for me. I'm waiting for a sale to start somewhere, so I can get another set. Man, those tires really went up in price.

They certainly did!! :( I just bought another set for the first time in quite a while (my experience has been similar to that of other posters -- the 4 Seasons are really durable! :thumb:) and I was surprised at the price increase. Looks like they've been slightly redesigned, too, but maybe that's mostly marketing/cosmetics.

But I like 'em so much, I'll bite the bullet. *sigh*

In real-world conditions (i.e. the typically rough roads with chipseal etc. that randonneurs ride on) the most-recent issue of Bicycle Quarterly shows fairly conclusively that wider tires at lower pressure are more efficient (i.e. faster for a given wattage output) for randonneuring-style riding than narrow tires at high pressures, while not giving up any efficiency on smooth roads.
Really? I just got through rereading that article and it provides no data whatsoever to support that claim. All they offer is a bunch of subjective opinion on ride comfort.

I would say that their article was about pushing specific brands of tires and personal preferences, not about anything objective regarding narrow versus wide. Where is the representation of conventional narrow tires and where is the test data?

In real-world conditions (i.e. the typically rough roads with chipseal etc. that randonneurs ride on) the most-recent issue of Bicycle Quarterly shows fairly conclusively that wider tires at lower pressure are more efficient (i.e. faster for a given wattage output) for randonneuring-style riding than narrow tires at high pressures, while not giving up any efficiency on smooth roads. (For racing, this efficiency result is offset by the fact that the higher rotating mass makes a big difference in ability to change speed, as in a breakaway or sprint, and the wider tires generate notably higher aerodynamic resistance at high racing speeds, thus making a difference to actually winning races.)

For a noncompetitive, self-supported long-distance bike-riding sport like randonneuring, where we are often on crappy road surfaces, wider tires at optimally-low pressures (as shown in the tire-drop chart referred to above) dominate narrow, high-pressure tires, because they are both more efficient and more comfortable.

Nick Bull

The BQ perspective is disturbing, because he dismisses out of hand tests that have been done, and there is zero apparent dialog with those who conducted such tests or have real tire design and engineering expertise. Granted, as an engineer, the test that gets done is often the one that can be done under suitable control. Still, there's no dialog apparent with engineers from Continental, Schwalbe, Panaracer, Vittoria, Challenge, and the others. Jan Heine has presented a radical result (arguable whether the presentation is adequate), and there seems to be no peer review, and noone seems to be researching the discrepancies. What happens if the tires he used are put on the drums? What happens if a drum is textured to mimic road? Can anyone repeat Heine's experiment? Is it even a sound, repeatible methodology? If he extends it to large samples/long duration/naturalistic subjects, what happens? Is there a range of loads and tire pressures for which resistance is minimized? How robust is that advice?

He's bucking a lot of history. Without some of this explored, I don't think it's conclusive at all. It's anecdotal, as evidence of a rolling resistance advantage.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. He hasn't shown it.

anyone have a link to the latest article?