Framebuilders - Frame material

HI all

Ok im officaily lost in mass of diferent aluminium alloys .....
I was try to finde little more about aluminium alloys used for bike frame, started with 6061, 7005, Scandium(i was specialy intersted in Scandium) , Carbon ....
And now i can finde wich i better and i cant see different betwine of them (specialy because of different industrial names for them), i just saw Marin frame souns like carbon-plastic if you konock it, light i was shure that is Scandium frame well no it is 6061 Al .... same thing with Alpha RED Trek looks very light but i dosent stand it is Scandium ....
Well is there way to see different betwine scandium, 7005, and 6061 .... whay some 6061 Al looks so light ?!
Who produce scandium frames ?!

Tnx !

Scandiuim is a rare element found only in Russia. When the Cold War ended some years ago, shortly after Russia started to sell the Scandium. When alloyed with aluminum, the resulting alloy is many,many times stiffer and stronger than any high quality aluminum. Scandium was a secret of the Soviet Union you see. It was the special ingredient blended with the aluminum used on the fins of missles. For many years the US government couldn't understand just how the Sov. Union was able to launch missles from below the Polar Ice Cap, blasting clear through it with the missle staying in tact and on course. We had tried it but steel alloys didn't hold-up, the missle flights failed when the fins failed. Titanium was no use either, much too flexible.
Bike frames made from Scandium (actually Scandium Al. alloy) are truely the stiffest, lightest and about the strongest made. It's curious why it isn't more well known and popular than it is. It IS popular but still. Bikes in the Tour De France and other major races are ridden on Carbon Fiber bikes mostly. EXCEPT for just a few Scandium.

20 years ago, when shopping for a hybrid, the man at the LBS was explaining why some models cost more, they were mostly Giants. the "7" series was tops, then 6... others too; some Easton but I don't recall the second brand.

I'm not sure but I think it was you who'd asked about a frame...anyway, the man who did, commented that it looked like carbon fiber but it seemed strange so he wasn't sure. I kept quiet, suspecting the man had seen Scandium. Someone posted saying that it was a fiber-combo alloy or such, hafter having read it in Yahoo Answers. I'm not so sure.

6061 is a very good, all around, easy to work with and weld, high silicone aluminum alloy. Been used in aircraft for years. It can be worked with for huge structures and not so huge tubes.
7075 is a bit stronger, harder to work with and generally favored for smaller and particular parts. Each # type of aluminum comes in a few different grades,all close.

scandium is the ****, they're not hyping the Scandium Road Race Bikes, just liker they weren't hyping the Carbon Race bikes back in 1991. It's foolish that more folks don't have'em. My neighbor worked IN Russia for MIG aircraft. Now he does work with helicopters here in NC and is a tech. for others too.
Many Co.s have Scandium bikes, some models are a fortune, others seem mid-priced. If you were narrow-down the type; M.Biike, Road Bike, $$ or not, I've ideas.

Scandiuim is a rare element found only in Russia. When the Cold War ended some years ago, shortly after Russia started to sell the Scandium. When alloyed with aluminum, the resulting alloy is many,many times stiffer and stronger than any high quality aluminum. Scandium was a secret of the Soviet Union you see. It was the special ingredient blended with the aluminum used on the fins of missles. For many years the US government couldn't understand just how the Sov. Union was able to launch missles from below the Polar Ice Cap, blasting clear through it with the missle staying in tact and on course. We had tried it but steel alloys didn't hold-up, the missle flights failed when the fins failed. Titanium was no use either, much too flexible.
Bike frames made from Scandium (actually Scandium Al. alloy) are truely the stiffest, lightest and about the strongest made. It's curious why it isn't more well known and popular than it is. It IS popular but still. Bikes in the Tour De France and other major races are ridden on Carbon Fiber bikes mostly. EXCEPT for just a few Scandium.

Nonsense.

Scandium is rare, yes, but it's not found only in Russia. Nor is it a wonder metal. It's most famous instance of use was actually as a material smuggled across the border from Russia to Ukraine to be sold on as Plutonium.

*NO* interstitial solute in *ANY* alloy system can considerably increase the Young Modulus of the matrix, so no, it doesn't have *any* effect on stiffness of aluminium alloys worth a damn. I'm afraid whatever you've read or been told about what additions of a few percent of scandium to aluminium alloys is rubbish. The USA didn't have a problem understanding why firing a missile through ice caps didn't harm aluminium fins at all, and nor did titanium pose a problem as it's 'much too flexible'. Titanium alloys are about 180% as stiff as any aluminium alloy and up to three times as strong and steels 300% as stiff and up to 8 times as strong. NATO forces have had a capability to launch through ice with no dififculty since ICBMs were conceived.

What the Americans couldn't work out was the heat-treatment schedule of those aluminium fins to produce the maximum strength in doped aluminium alloys, which, might I re-iterate, were still vastly inferior to steels or titanium alloys in mechanical properties. Their benefit lay in their much lower density and therefore mass for the same volume, lowering the mass of the missile and allowing a bigger payload.

Their relative scarcity at all isn't curious at all. Scandium master alloy is expensive and all addidtions of scandium do to aluminium alloys is allow them to behave more like steels in the weldpool and heat-affected zones. It still doesn't address specific stiffness or specific strength requirements that aluminium alloys are found wanting on.



20 years ago, when shopping for a hybrid, the man at the LBS was explaining why some models cost more, they were mostly Giants. the "7" series was tops, then 6... others too; some Easton but I don't recall the second brand.

7000 series aluminium alloys are higher strength, heat-treatable alloys, containing alloying additions of zinc, copper and magnesium. 6000 series are lower to intermediate strength alloys containing silicon (not silicone) and magnesium. They require heat-treatinng in weldment areas to restore substantial fractions of lost strength after processing. You can just about get away without heat-treating 7xxx series after welding, but I don't recommend it.



6061 is a very good, all around, easy to work with and weld, high silicone aluminum alloy. Been used in aircraft for years. It can be worked with for huge structures and not so huge tubes.
7075 is a bit stronger, harder to work with and generally favored for smaller and particular parts. Each # type of aluminum comes in a few different grades,all close.

Silicon, not silicone. And it only contains 1.6% maximum. Not very high. And less than 1% magnesium. It is strengthened by precipitation of magnesium silicide particles and really requires heat-treating after welding, as I mentioned, or huge amounts of strength are lost.

7075 is not suitable for welding. It's one of the highest strength aluminium alloys and as such is used for machined and forged parts. 7005, 7020 are weldable.



scandium is the ****, they're not hyping the Scandium Road Race Bikes, just liker they weren't hyping the Carbon Race bikes back in 1991. It's foolish that more folks don't have'em. My neighbor worked IN Russia for MIG aircraft. Now he does work with helicopters here in NC and is a tech. for others too.
Many Co.s have Scandium bikes, some models are a fortune, others seem mid-priced. If you were narrow-down the type; M.Biike, Road Bike, $$ or not, I've ideas.

I'm not sure what your neighbour can contribute about scandium-containing alloys, because Mikoyen Gurivetch were pioneers of the use of lithium containing aluminium alloys, not scandium.




As many builders on here will tell you, material is secondary to the function of the bicycle frame. Thylacine, Nessism and PeterPan will probably agree when I say that first you get the fit, then you get the comfort and the tubing/monocoque/hybrid follows those requirements.
By all means, choose a frame material you like the soun dof, but make sure the form and fucntion are addressed first :-)

Spelled either way GOTH BOY You're the one who's rambling YOUR father didn't fight for me !!

you make no sense.. go with peter pan and play Dungeons and Dragons

Hope i didnt start fight with this qestion :)
Tnx to both of you ....
Yes i have allready try to get some information about scandium before but ppl are not to familier with it.

Well Im very fascinated with scandium because it looks like he improves Al alloy a lot .... but on the other hand informations are different from source to source, so im not shure is it waste of mony to invest in scandium frame ...
Only few companys that use him for MTB are MacMahone, Salsa, Marin and Voodoo as i see and thoes models are in higher class so is it worth ?!
But how they get almost same efect on Al 6061 that he looks like scandium ?! ... i was shure that it is scandium frame and when i read it was Al tripple B. 6061 frame ....
Is there some way to finde what typ of Al is used if you finde company cod as Alpah RED, G7, Fuji Altair 2 and so on ....

Spelled either way GOTH BOY You're the one who's rambling YOUR father didn't fight for me !!

you make no sense.. go with peter pan and play Dungeons and Dragons

Silicon: n. (pronounced /ˈsɪlɨkən/ SIL-ə-kən or /ˈsɪlɨkɒn/ SIL-ə-kon, Latin: silicium) is the most common metalloid. It is a chemical element, which has the symbol Si and atomic number 14. A tetravalent metalloid, silicon is less reactive than its chemical analog carbon. As the eighth most common element in the universe by mass, silicon very rarely occurs as the pure free element in nature, but is more widely distributed in dusts, planetoids and planets as various forms of silicon dioxide (silica) or silicates. On Earth, silicon is the second most abundant element (after oxygen) in the crust, making up 25.7% of the crust by mass.

Silicones: n. are largely inert, man-made compounds with a wide variety of forms and uses. Typically heat-resistant, nonstick, and rubber-like, they are commonly used in cookware, medical applications, sealants, adhesives, lubricants, insulation, and breast implants.
Silicones are polymers that include silicon together with carbon, hydrogen, oxygen, and sometimes other chemical elements.


Two very different things.

Aluminum/Scandium alloys look promising but never really caught on for some reason; seems to improve the mechanical properties of the Al, but about the time they hit the market, the carbon train was leaving the station and everyone jumped on.

And thanks to Falanx, this silliness was put in it's proper place...

Quote: Old and new: "When alloyed with aluminum, the resulting alloy is many,many times stiffer and stronger than any high quality aluminum."

I must say that i have also finde information about use of scandium for MIG- and 29 in time of cold war ....
Also that scandium is dig out in CCCP and republic of russia ....
Well very intresting element hard to finde even good informations about him :)

well all I can tell you is Aluminum is for airplanes, Scandium makes fabulous light revolvers, and if you want a good bike get something made with Columbus Nivachrome steel.

well all I can tell you is Aluminum is for airplanes, Scandium makes fabulous light revolvers, and if you want a good bike get something made with Columbus Nivachrome steel.

Nivachrom is nice, but steel vs. aluminum, etc., comes down to personal preference. As a former owner and racer of various Bianchis (incl. a Specialissima Super Corsa and an Eco Pista), a Chicago-built Schwinn Paramount, etc., etc., my personal preference is now aluminum all the way. Love the weight difference and the way aluminum handles on fast descents. Plus, in my years of working in bike stores, I saw many more failed high-end steel frames than failed high-end aluminum frames.

Aluminum/Scandium alloys look promising but never really caught on for some reason; seems to improve the mechanical properties of the Al, but about the time they hit the market, the carbon train was leaving the station and everyone jumped on.

And thanks to Falanx, this silliness was put in it's proper place...

Quote: Old and new: "When alloyed with aluminum, the resulting alloy is many,many times stiffer and stronger than any high quality aluminum."

I dunno, you try to answer a serious question and you get a barrage of abuse from a man who speaks English not so much as though a second or third language, but as if he had nothing but utter distain for it...

And, Old And New... I've never really like AD&D. I prefer real time. but thank you for the suggestion. I'll take it under advisement.

By the by, anyone out there doing custom frame building using aluminum? I mean they sell the tubes so obviously someone is, but while material tech questions come up, not too often do any threads about a custom home or pro aluminum bike.

I used to know a guy who built recumbents in Tig welded aluminum. He located a heat treater, and was going that route. He had a bike shop, but it was more a hobby, so it can be done on a small scale.

you see articles about people doing it, I don't remember anyone off the top of my head.

By the by, anyone out there doing custom frame building using aluminum?

Co-motion offers custom sizing in their aluminum road bikes:

http://www.co-motion.com/single_bikes/ristretto.html

Here is one short but interesting article about Scandium frame .... well this is Kona but can be used i guess for all Scandium frames

http://www.konaworld.com/bike.cfm?content=kulasupreme

Here is one short but interesting article about Scandium frame .... well this is Kona but can be used i guess for all Scandium frames

http://www.konaworld.com/bike.cfm?content=kulasupreme

And all of it what Dave at MBI magazine used to call 'brochure bullsh*t'.

:) well non said that brochure is something when you read must be taken for granted .. ofc they are mainly nice picture of something need to be sold .... geometry of bike is main thing any way by my not to experienced opinion :)
Well im just curious why they use scandium if he not improving Al features and one other hand all talking about extra good Al alloy , well except for welding as you said Falax ...
Well if is it so than scandium is over priced ?! , because you can buy 6061-T6 or 7005 frame for less money ....

tnx all for help :)