Living Car Free - Super fast bike could revolutionize transportation

The right type of bike with a cool electric power option would attract much attention-& new cyclists:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34r1xtbh_1k

You have to have the allure of power, not just saving the planet.

$44 Large? Leno might buy one but it's hardly going to "revolutionize" transportation.

A motor cycle/spin bike for those who want to be "Green" and don't have time to go to the gym?

To me it looks like an electric motorcycle (nothing wrong with that) that is trying to squeak past the registration and licensing laws by meeting a local definition of a bicycle.

It would not meet the requirements of an e-bike in the states. Further, at those speeds Motorcycle training and safety equipment should be worn.

^^^^
It would have to be tagged as a motorcycle just about everywhere.

Price would probably come down a lot when manufacturing moved to the Giant factory in Taiwan.

My issue with this vehicle is that I am petrified doing descents over 30mph. Don't think I'd enjoy peddling past cars at 50mph.

Didn't that already get invented? Called a MOTORCYCLE I believe.

http://static.howstuffworks.com/gif/1910-emblem-1.jpg

What could I whip up for $44,000... hmmmm.

What could I whip up for $44,000... hmmmm.

I'm thinking that if I ever become too lazy to pedal my own bike, for $44K I could buy a pedicab and hire some sweet young thing to pedal me around.

"It's a motorbike, and, in a certain sense, it's also a bicycle.
Because the motorbike works as a bicycle."
Genius.

It's a motorbike, and, in a certain sense, it's also a bicycle. Because the motorbike works as a bicycle.

Hmm, it has a motor, but it also has pedals. I wonder what we could call it...


















...maybe a moped?

http://100megsfree4.com/honda/h0050/pc50-69a.jpg

The biggest fallacy out there is that electric cars and bikes are good for the environment. An argument can be made that they are worse. While the immediate area of their use (e-vehicle) is subject to less air pollution, the space around the oil or coal powered electric plant that generates your vehicle's power is subject to even more pollution. That electricity you use for the bike does not make itself. And when you generate power from coal, send it over long grid lines, then transfer it to your bike, you lose considerable energy. (less efficiency than a good internal combustion engine) Electric advocates never make this connection which always makes me smile. I'm with them in spirit but don't believe they are doing the environment any good at all. This does not mean that electric vehicles should not be used. It just means you should not get carried away (no pun intended) with them and their supposed benefit to planet earth - there is none.

the equation remains the same right?
well, i suppose the function

that is..

it takes x amount of energy to propel x amount of mass...
right?

in nominal terms, anyways...

x amount of industrial waste from production is still there
right?

carbon foot print?
energy used?

I worry about all those batteries
and worse of all, is a lack of standard(s)

i read somewhere, that in places like Asia, there are a lot of electric bicycles, that are non-operational, simply due to lack of durability. they get wet, crashed, etc... and its very difficult to repair them.

that is...
a lot of those types of bikes, evidently are "closed box"/proprietary/MFG service/obsolete.

i read somewhere, that in places like Asia, there are a lot of electric bicycles, that are non-operational, simply due to lack of durability. they get wet, crashed, etc... and its very difficult to repair them.


I know I ended up walking away form mine, an electric scooter. My flat was on the 5th floor and I got tired of packing the batteries up and down the stairs, so they went flat. In addition, the connector for the batteries was very low quality and started coming disconnected while I was riding.

As a result I stopped using it and, due to its having gel-cell batteries, it became unusable. Where I was in China, getting rid of things really does mean walking away. There is no real disposal plan (I also left a bike chained to a sign, I had lost the key to the lock). Usually things like that are stolen long before disposal is a concern.

At some point though, there is a need for disposal and all those batteries and other parts are an issue.

The awkward truth is, an electric bike uses slightly more energy to function than an internal combustion model of equal power. That pesky "transfer of energy" off the grid is where you will always lose. (no free lunches in science) Because the rider is disconnected from the power source (ugly power plant) , or chooses to ignore it, they believe they are being more earth friendly than the gas motor guy. This is false and always will be untill solar powered bikes are practical, which will be never unless you don't mind a solar cell large enough to glide with in a good breeze. Now THAT might me an option!

Please don't think I'm anti-electric vehicle. I'm not. I'd rather have the pollution floating around some other local than on my little island where I live. Electric subways and trolleys are great urban ideas. I like electrics, I just happen to understand the real cost of them on the evironment.

The biggest fallacy out there is that electric cars and bikes are good for the environment. An argument can be made that they are worse. While the immediate area of their use (e-vehicle) is subject to less air pollution, the space around the oil or coal powered electric plant that generates your vehicle's power is subject to even more pollution. That electricity you use for the bike does not make itself. And when you generate power from coal, send it over long grid lines, then transfer it to your bike, you lose considerable energy. (less efficiency than a good internal combustion engine) Electric advocates never make this connection which always makes me smile. I'm with them in spirit but don't believe they are doing the environment any good at all. This does not mean that electric vehicles should not be used. It just means you should not get carried away (no pun intended) with them and their supposed benefit to planet earth - there is none.

You're skipping some steps. There is definitely wasted energy in producing the power at the plant, in getting the electricity from the power plant to the bike's motor, and in the motor not being 100% efficient. But you're not counting the energy in getting the gasoline to the pump, transporting the gasoline with the bike, then the motor not being 100% efficient. Your post points out (rightly) all these inefficiencies in electricity but ignores that combustible fuels have most of the same problems.

You're also ignoring fuel can be turned into energy much more efficiently and cleanly in one place than on a motor vehicle. Because power plants immobile, they can be huge and heavy. They can have big bulky pollution scrubbers. They can be kept in good repair and at high operating efficiency by experts. And if we manage to expand wind, solar, and nuclear power in the future, we don't need to replace vehicles.

The argument for electric vehicles is that the energy source can be changed at any time without a massive re-tooling or infrastructure change. Right now, your vehicle might be powered ultimately by coal, but in 5 years it could be replaced with wind power. You could still continue to use your vehicle, even though the power source changed.

You're skipping some steps. There is definitely wasted energy in producing the power at the plant, in getting the electricity from the power plant to the bike's motor, and in the motor not being 100% efficient. But you're not counting the energy in getting the gasoline to the pump, transporting the gasoline with the bike, then the motor not being 100% efficient. Your post points out (rightly) all these inefficiencies in electricity but ignores that combustible fuels have most of the same problems.

You're also ignoring fuel can be turned into energy much more efficiently and cleanly in one place than on a motor vehicle. Because power plants immobile, they can be huge and heavy. They can have big bulky pollution scrubbers. They can be kept in good repair and at high operating efficiency by experts. And if we manage to expand wind, solar, and nuclear power in the future, we don't need to replace vehicles.

Very good points about the gas having to be transported. You seem to have a better knowledge of this subject than me. I just didn't want people to think e-vehicles are without pollution. I happen to think atomic power should be better utilized in this country. Have been to France. They 80+ nuke plants and none of their cows glow.

Electric powered vehicles are definitely an improvement over ICE's. I wonder about the long term effect of the batteries and the disposal. Batteries seem to be the elephant in the room. FWIW I have a solar rig on my travel trailer that I play with that would be capable of keeping an electric bike or scooter pretty well powered up, plus I live in the deep south where we have decent solar gain...most of the time.

An additional factor with charging electric vehicles is to do it off peak hours when the big power plants are running near idle, that can be done a variety of ways and if implemented properly would avoid having to build more plants and would improve utilization of them.

I am ambivalent on the nuclear power plants, but suspect we are probably going to have to build them if we don't want power shortages down the road. The current brilliant idea in power plants is to make the wood fired. The ones currently online are using scrap/waste wood, but if they build too many of them or have to increase their power output they will be sucking down forests pretty soon.

Aaron:)

The current brilliant idea in power plants is to make the wood fired. The ones currently online are using scrap/waste wood, but if they build too many of them or have to increase their power output they will be sucking down forests pretty soon.

Aaron:)

In addition, there isn't as much scrap wood as there used to be with the closure of mills all over America. A lot of wood is exported to be processed. I would also add that it is making wood pellets, an efficient form of heating, very expensive. Pellets were originally made from scrap wood. But now there isn't enough scrap.

its hard to beat good old fashioned muscle power
however, i'm sure its not free from noxious side effects
food has to be transported
bikes have to be built

unless of course, something along the lines of bamboo bikes, and eating foods close at hand.
even then, i guess, you'd have to bring in the resin & i guess the fibers too to wrap things up...

Please don't think I'm anti-electric vehicle. I'm not. I'd rather have the pollution floating around some other local than on my little island where I live.

I think everybody would. Right now there is a big fight in Arkansas because the citizens of Louisiana and Texas would rather pollute Arkansas to get their power. Understandably, the Arkansans are not as convinced.

An additional factor with charging electric vehicles is to do it off peak hours when the big power plants are running near idle, that can be done a variety of ways and if implemented properly would avoid having to build more plants and would improve utilization of them.

But wouldn't that require electric vehicle owners to plan ahead? :eek:

I think everybody would. Right now there is a big fight in Arkansas because the citizens of Louisiana and Texas would rather pollute Arkansas to get their power. Understandably, the Arkansans are not as convinced.

Remember that old city-building computer game called Sim City? It was a great strategy to build your power plants on your border so that the neighboring cities would get most of the pollution. I guess that works well in real life also.

Of course the push for electric motors is forward-looking. You hope that within a few years, a bigger percentage of electric power will be produced from greener sources.

But wouldn't that require electric vehicle owners to plan ahead?

Not really. If people are parking cars in a driveway or garage most nights, then you plug it in and let it change there. The default setting for a garage charger could be something smart, smarter than what I'm about to write here, but it would be designed by the charger makers and owners wouldn't have to worry about it. Something like:

1) if the owner pressed the "fast charge -- override" button, charge to full
2) until the vehicle is at least 20% charged, charge it to 20% regardless of the time of day
3) if it's evening and we're 20% charged, wait until off peak charging starts and then charge to full

To me it looks like an electric motorcycle (nothing wrong with that) that is trying to squeak past the registration and licensing laws by meeting a local definition of a bicycle.

It would not meet the requirements of an e-bike in the states. Further, at those speeds Motorcycle training and safety equipment should be worn.

Apparently there's no throttle on this thing. To make it move, you have to pedal. The German factory only builds a few each year (they're making 10 this year). There are press articles that came out last month that state the price has been decreased to a little over $18,000 USD. Still too high for a hybrid vehicle that has to be pedaled. (I like the fact that you have to pedal to make the vehicle move, but I suspect many potential buyers who want to go that speed want a throttle on the handlebars.) The bike is also beefed up to meet moped/motorcycle safety standards in Europe so you might be able to license them in the US since I suspect the safety features meet the US NHTSA's safety standards for mopeds and motorcycles too, if you can get your local DMV (and your insurance company) to wrap their heads around the fact that it has to be pedaled to make it move.

If it wasn't for the sticker shock factor, I'd be banging on the door for one! 50mph on a bike is a rush! Did it on a Schwinn 10-speed in the 70's...will never forget it.

The potential is sweeeeeeet!

Looking at the YouTube video again, it appears the inventor was cutting off cars and spliting traffic like a bicycle but at motorcycle speed! My concern is that people will buy this fast electric bike and ride it just like the owner did on YouTube. No question in my mind, you need to take a motorcycle course before buying one.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_bicycle_laws

Federal Laws and Regulation
Defined
The U.S. NHTSA Code of Motor Vehicle Safety simply defines low-speed electric bicycles as consumer products and not Motor Vehicles for safety standards[21]. In doing so they vest authority over commercial safety standards to the Consumer Product Safety Commission.
The Consumer Product Safety Commission(CPSC) stipulates that commercially manufactured low-speed electric bicycles, or tricycles, must have fully operable pedals, an electric motor not exceeding 750W of power and a top motor-powered speed not in excess of 20 miles per hour (32 km/h).[22] An electric bike remaining within these specifications will be regarded simply as a bicycle for purposes of safety standards. This supersedes any state law that is more stringent, but only regarding safety equipment required on electric bicycles and the standard of manufacture they must meet.[23]. The legislation enacting this amendment to the CPSC is also known as HR 727[24].
No known federal regulations apply to the manufacture of homebuilt electric bicycles.
[edit]Use
As of 2005, where Federal funds have been used in the construction of bicycle or pedestrian paths motor vehicles including electric bicycles (here defined as having a motor weighing less than 100 lb (50 kg)) are not permitted unless State or Local regulations permit [25]. This was known as the Transportation Equity Act for the 21st Century (TEA-21), or Public Law 105-178, or by its 2003 re-authorization which expired in 2005 the Safe, Accountable, Flexible, Efficient Transportation Equity Act (SAFETEA-LU).[26][27]
In total, the current federal legislation leaves the legality of operation on public rights-of-way to the discretion of individual States and municipalities.

...maybe a moped?

What's the deal with mopeds, anyway? They seem to be so practical, inexpensive and efficient, yet most people seem to go for either bicycles, scooters, or motorcycles. Even in the 70s, I remember seeing them mostly in stores, or kids riding them for fun, but few serious riders.

Does anybody own one, or used to own one, who has any insight?

What's the deal with mopeds, anyway? They seem to be so practical, inexpensive and efficient, yet most people seem to go for either bicycles, scooters, or motorcycles. Even in the 70s, I remember seeing them mostly in stores, or kids riding them for fun, but few serious riders.

Does anybody own one, or used to own one, who has any insight?

Lets see.... a motorized bike with a top speed of 30mph (moped) or a bicycle with no real limit to its top speed. A moped that you have to gas up and keep oil in. Or a bike that you oil the chain and feed the motor with a burrito.
Why bother with a moped?

What's the deal with mopeds, anyway? They seem to be so practical, inexpensive and efficient, yet most people seem to go for either bicycles, scooters, or motorcycles. Even in the 70s, I remember seeing them mostly in stores, or kids riding them for fun, but few serious riders.

Does anybody own one, or used to own one, who has any insight?

No insight, I did have a Vespa Ciao back in the mid 70's for a while. I primarily rode it to work because of one long hill that I had to go up and down. It was easier on the moped than on a bike. Now many of the smaller scooters are in the same class as mopeds if they are under 50cc and don't exceed a certain speed. Some locales require a license for mopeds just like a scooter or motor cycle.

Aaron:)

A few years ago I saw an electric bike that looked like a light motorcycle except you could pedal it too. Not some common moped. This bike had a CF frame with thickish tubing in which the batteries were stored. They (the batteries) were all over the frame and the frame was painted very nicely. It made the vehicle look neat and clean. I spoke to the owner and he said it had a 50 mile range. That is a very practical range in the lower keys. I don't remember the brand name but have never seen it, or another like it. I recall thinking that it was a perfect product that could not fail to sell. But, alas, I see no sign of them today.

But wouldn't that require electric vehicle owners to plan ahead? :eek:

Possibly...in our area the power company has some type of control unit that they can put on your heat pumps and water heaters where they will turn them off for brief periods of time during peak plant usage to help avoid rolling brown outs. Supposedly they give you a discount if you use the system. I didn't qualify because I don't use much electricity to start with:innocent: I have my water heater on a timer with a kill switch override. I also am more prone to open windows than use the air conditioning, and keep the heat set in the low 60's. We use the compact fluorescent bulbs in all but 3 fixtures and primarily use task lighting versus whole room lighting.

Aaron:)

A few years ago I saw an electric bike that looked like a light motorcycle except you could pedal it too. Not some common moped. This bike had a CF frame with thickish tubing in which the batteries were stored. They (the batteries) were all over the frame and the frame was painted very nicely. It made the vehicle look neat and clean. I spoke to the owner and he said it had a 50 mile range. That is a very practical range in the lower keys. I don't remember the brand name but have never seen it, or another like it. I recall thinking that it was a perfect product that could not fail to sell. But, alas, I see no sign of them today.

Did it look like this:

http://keetsa.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/ultra-motor-electric-bicycle.jpg

There's a shop near us that sells these and I see a lot of people out front testing them, looking like they're having a good time.

Looks like a moped to me. I used to have one.

The concept of a human/electric hybrid is cool I suppose with plug in capability.

When all of the VERY expensive batteries give out in the Prius/Insight/whatever hybrid cars and people are motoring around on gasoline only because they cannot afford to replace the batteries any more than they could get the electric windows on their Buick fixed, will they think they are so smart then?

Indirect drive, diesel electric later replaced with fuel cell electric is the way to go.

I like bicycles the way they are.

Looks like a moped to me. I used to have one.

The concept of a human/electric hybrid is cool I suppose with plug in capability.

When all of the VERY expensive batteries give out in the Prius/Insight/whatever hybrid cars and people are motoring around on gasoline only because they cannot afford to replace the batteries any more than they could get the electric windows on their Buick fixed, will they think they are so smart then?

Indirect drive, diesel electric later replaced with fuel cell electric is the way to go.

I like bicycles the way they are.

You might be right about plug-in cars--we'll see.

In the past the govt. tried to plan and direct research into alternative cars. The Conventional Wisdom right now is to let inventors develop what they want, then wait to see what works and what sells. (The federal govt. just got out of the business of researching mobile fuel cells, for example.)

I have a feeling that electric bikes will fill a niche. They won't replace real bikes, but they might augment them. They would be great for a 10 or 15 mile commute, for example.

As can be seen on this thread, there's currently a lot of confusion as to what these strange vehicles really are--bicycle, moped, scooter, motor cycle OR...?

You can already buy an electric motorcycle for $10,000 (minus government incentive programs) that goes 55mph and 50 miles on a charge (look up Zero electric motorcycles made in California). So why would you want a more expensive moped?

You can already buy an electric motorcycle for $10,000 (minus government incentive programs) that goes 55mph and 50 miles on a charge (look up Zero electric motorcycles made in California). So why would you want a more expensive moped?

This vehicle won't move unless you pedal--there's no throttle. You have to pedal faster to make it move faster. It's truly a bicycle, not a electric motorcycle, granted, given the speeds it can reach, it will most likely be classified a moped in many places. The batteries supposedly can recharge while it's being pedaled, but I'm not sure what the range is. If I had the money, I might buy it. It's amplifying the cyclist's efforts by a factor of 50. How can you not be impressed with this engineering feat?

This vehicle won't move unless you pedal--there's no throttle. You have to pedal faster to make it move faster. It's truly a bicycle, not a electric motorcycle, granted, given the speeds it can reach, it will most likely be classified a moped in many places. The batteries supposedly can recharge while it's being pedaled, but I'm not sure what the range is. If I had the money, I might buy it. It's amplifying the cyclist's efforts by a factor of 50. How can you not be impressed with this engineering feat?

It's quite easy to not be impressed. All he's doing is combining pedal power with an electric scooter in a hybrid fashion. It doesn't "amplify the cyclist's efforts", what it is doing is augmenting human power with battery power. A bicycle is an amazing machine - it takes the meager power output of a human and allows that human to travel at much greater speed for longer distances than he could by walking or running. It also does that relatively cheaply. This vehicle is nothing more than an electric scooter that allows you to use human power to extend the range and acceleration a little bit. Given how little power humans have, that's not going to add up to much.

Depending on fitness level etc, a reasonable sustainable power output for a human is 75 to 150 watts. For comparison, the Zero electric motorcycle puts out 4000 watts. So if you were to add human power, you would only be increasing the available power by 2 to 4%. Big deal.

If you are a big fan of "impressive" engineering which accomplishes very little, you might want to buy yourself a Segway. I'll keep my money and wave as I ride by on my bike when your battery runs out of charge.

Depending on fitness level etc, a reasonable sustainable power output for a human is 75 to 150 watts. For comparison, the Zero electric motorcycle puts out 4000 watts. So if you were to add human power, you would only be increasing the available power by 2 to 4%. Big deal.


The zero's battery holds 4000 watt-hours. Say a person can put out 150 watts for 8 hours. That's 1200 watt hours. So adding a person gives us closer to 30% more power, not 4%.

The zero's battery holds 4000 watt-hours. Say a person can put out 150 watts for 8 hours. That's 1200 watt hours. So adding a person gives us closer to 30% more power, not 4%.

Okay, I screwed up. A normal human isn't capable of 150 watts for 8 hours, but anyway, let's use horsepower instead since most of us are more familiar with it as a unit of power. The Zero has about 20HP and a fit human puts out 1/6 HP (125 Watts). So that means if you added human power to the Zero, you'd get less than 1 percent more power. (You can't add 1200 watt hours to it because the battery will die in less than an hour at peak horsepower - that just shows you the limitation of current battery technology).

Think about it - how fast do you really think you can go with only 1/6 horsepower?

I'm thinking that if I ever become too lazy to pedal my own bike, for $44K I could buy a pedicab and hire some sweet young thing to pedal me around.

When that happens, please pick me up on the way to work. We can pedicab pool.


http://sdheadliner.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/rush.jpg