Road Bike Racing - Lance in the Giro...after this tidbit, would you go?

This might be the most stunning thing I have ever read..second article (http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2004/jul04/jul28news)

Are these guys serious?

Oh, wait...these are the folks that can show up at your hotel room in the middle of the night without a warrant, and search your room. :eek: :eek:

BTW, it also looks like Walter and Jan will not be exchanging Christmas cards any time soon.

not only do the french hate lance, so do the italians! according to cyclingnews.com:

"According to a report from AFP, the investigators are considering bringing charges against Armstrong for sporting fraud, violence, and intimidation of a witness."

those euros! they hate anythign that's good, clean and american! poor lance! it's a conspiracy!

i think its more the media then the public, don't paint all of europe with one brush.
bashing popular people sells papers we do the same thing here.
not sure why the italian govt would get involved. if they decide to investigate him it's a good thing it's after the tour instead of before otherwise he may have been disqualified. i was afraid that rule might cause things like this to happen. it's too easy for the compition to be thinned out this way.

I can get the intimidating a witness (but hey, its a bike race ya know
riders get ridden down all the time!)
The sporting Fraud? where, whats the fraud? winning the TdF?
Unless they can prove doping/etc. I don't think they stand a chance.
Violence? the only violence I've seen is his attacks (oh yeah he
Violently attacked Basso (an italian) and Kloden so it makes sense, no?)
another Pantani like witch hunt?

Lets face it, Lance ain't no saint but this is kind of ridiculous.

Marty

Marty

I've never been comfortable with LA acting, at least in part, to defend Ferrari in stage 18. However, the Italians are on the verge of a major overreaction here and may well turn LA away from the Giro.

That'd be a shame as LA has shown interest in the Giro, the Giro desperately wants LA, and as a fan I want to see LA ride more/different races. That may all go right down the chute.

:beer:

Baahahaha

Intimidation of a witness. Yea I'd be intimidated to if LA chased me down. My guess is it won't amount to anything...

not only do the french hate lance, so do the italians! according to cyclingnews.com:

"According to a report from AFP, the investigators are considering bringing charges against Armstrong for sporting fraud, violence, and intimidation of a witness."

those euros! they hate anythign that's good, clean and american! poor lance! it's a conspiracy!

When has anything American been good or clean? I'm not sure if you and I had the same American history class, but Americans are not good and clean.

Simply put - it's a bike race. Chasing down a break, or another rider in a break is part of the sport, regardless as to the reason. Some Italians don't like what Lance did ONLY BECAUSE HE DID IT TO AN ITALIAN, and now this selective group of whiners wants to take legal action for a move made in a bike race.

It's a total joke.

If they are *****ing about Armstrong chasing Simeoni on stage 18, then they have nothing. That simply isn't violent, isn't fraud, and isn't intimidation at the point. It's a race.

What is was was cheap and petty by Armstrong. He should have left Simeoni away.

But Ekimov's snot blow or spit or whatever after they brought back Simeoni on stage 20 was pathetic. This after a lot of riders including Lance *****ed about getting spit on by the crowds on l'Alpe d'Huez. So the standard is don't spit on USPS riders, but its okay for them to spit on the rest of the peloton. Right.

It'll be interesting to see how this plays out in the courts where it matters. I'm no Lance hater; he's the best cyclist of generation and one of the top athletes to boot, but that doesn't mean I'm giving him a free pass.

His antics during stage 18 tainted an otherwise remarkable TdF for him. He should of left Simeoni away. I can understand chasing him down on stage 20 as it is something of a tradition for the maillot jaune and his team to lead the peloton onto the Champs-Elysee, but Eki's antics when Simeoni was brought back again tainted the USPS team's Tour for me.

What happens between the lines, stays between the lines. If you can't handle it, stay out of the lines. Simeoni is a punk, and got what he deserved. Lance and USPS called him out, and he can't handle it. How can Italian autorities bring charges on Lance for something that happened in France? Should the French be outraged about this violation of juristiction? Is there something in the EU charter that allows this?

Anyone ever heard of a lawsuit between athletes from on the feild actions?

So now Lance, or any other rider in the TDF must have a valid reason, at least to gcasillo, in order to chase down someone? Oh wait, Ulrich chased down Landis even though he could not come anywhere near him in the GC, lets all badmouth Ulrich for that!

Lance chased down a rider going for a stage win, for ANY reason that is a perfectly valid tactic and completely to be expected in a bike race.

Flea77, did you even read my post? Lance can chase anyone down he wants. Sure. Did he chase Aitor Gonzalez? Landaluza? Mercado? No. But wait, Simeoni gets competitive, and Lance has to bring him back to the peloton. Under "petty" in the dictionary, you'll find this picture:

http://www.bikeforums.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=14492&stc=1

I'll summarize my first post for those that skimmed it. There is no rule that says Lance can't chase whoever he wants. The Italian authorities are out of line to charge Lance for chasing Simeoni. HOWEVER, I feel that if you're going to win, win with class. Lance doesn't like Simeoni. Fine. They'll settle that in court. But the stage 18 squabble and Ekimov's discharge in stage 20 dilluted what was some terrific cycling from the whole USPS team.

I get my daily allowance of hype, controversy, and intrigue from American stick-n-ball sports. I want my cycling to stick to cycling.

NO NO NO NO! If you don't like someone in a sport then you settle it DURING the sport. If a baseball player gets beaned, he doesn't take it to court. His pitcher beans someone when he's on the mound. When someone gets a little more physical after the whistle blows during a football game, you dont take it to court. The next play you give them an extra shove. Lance did what ANY athlete would do when he doesn't get along with another player, you handle it on the field! Thats whats wrong with the world, everyone is trying to sue everyone. If they have problems with each other, then they need to settle it on the field.

Well, that'd be dandy if Simeoni stuck a twig in Lance's spokes I guess.

Well, if the artical is correct, it doesn't seem that the other riders in the peloton had a problem with Lance's actions:
"Once back in the bunch, Simeoni got some verbal abuse from Italian riders and went to hide at the back of the peloton, while Armstrong was applauded by many riders and made the cryptic sign of a zipper across his lips."

I can get the intimidating a witness (but hey, its a bike race ya know
riders get ridden down all the time!)
The sporting Fraud? where, whats the fraud? winning the TdF?
Unless they can prove doping/etc. I don't think they stand a chance.
Violence? the only violence I've seen is his attacks (oh yeah he
Violently attacked Basso (an italian) and Kloden so it makes sense, no?)
another Pantani like witch hunt?

Lets face it, Lance ain't no saint but this is kind of ridiculous.

Marty

Marty

It gets better (http://www.indystar.com/articles/4/166079-5534-036.html)

Now I'm no lawyer (but I do play one on television :D ), but how can you prove what was said between two riders on the road? Sounds like a countersuit...maybe Lance's Italian's not too good (remember Pantani thinking Lance was mocking him?).

This is really too funny.

But I bet the Spanish are happy...Lance in the Vuelta and the Giro can kiss his....

Wonder what Cippolini thinks about this?

NO NO NO NO! If you don't like someone in a sport then you settle it DURING the sport. If a baseball player gets beaned, he doesn't take it to court. His pitcher beans someone when he's on the mound. When someone gets a little more physical after the whistle blows during a football game, you dont take it to court. The next play you give them an extra shove. Lance did what ANY athlete would do when he doesn't get along with another player, you handle it on the field! Thats whats wrong with the world, everyone is trying to sue everyone. If they have problems with each other, then they need to settle it on the field.

Agreed. Take it out on the field, although the way Armstrong did it was kind of petty. But I don't know the whole story as Armstrong states. The other question is how the hell can the Italians bring about these charges? Is it part of the European Union? Can jurisdiction flow amongst countries? I think it is a joke. Whatever people's opinion may be of Armstrong, the Italians are whacked.

Simeoni could have stayed out, the Peloton would have chased them down but he could have stayed out. It's not Armstrong's fault if he felt intimidated. No one forced him back.

I'm a little confused. (normal situation). How exactly did Lance "herd" Simeoni back to the peloton? Did he get in front of him and block his way? Did he get behind him and suck his wheel? If Lance bridged the gap isn't that a testimony to his riding skill? It seems that Simeoni is like the kid on the playground who goes crying to his teacher and saying "They're picking on me".

Simeoni could have stayed out, the Peloton would have chased them down but he could have stayed out. It's not Armstrong's fault if he felt intimidated. No one forced him back.

Yeah. Why didn't Simeoni just continue his bridge up to the breakaway with Lance on his wheel? I'm serious. What better way to have made a statement about what an arse Lance was?

When LA called Simeoni a liar, they were off the race course. None of us know for sure whether Simeoni was telling the truth. If Simeoni wants to go to court to argue his honesty, let the chips fall where they may. (Some articles say he's sued, others say he will sue. What's the scoop?)

LA's move against Simeoni in the TdF did taint the win a little, but it also falls in the long tradition of athletes settling scores in competition. And the whining of Italian fans falls in the long tradition of, well, whining by fans of all sports.

Agreed. Take it out on the field, although the way Armstrong did it was kind of petty. But I don't know the whole story as Armstrong states. The other question is how the hell can the Italians bring about these charges? Is it part of the European Union? Can jurisdiction flow amongst countries? I think it is a joke. Whatever people's opinion may be of Armstrong, the Italians are whacked.

If Simeoni is suing Armstrong for defamation, then the evidence of intimidation will applicable wherever the court case is held, regardless of where the alleged intimidation took place. If it were otherwise, the american mafia could have grabbed witnesses, pulled them into canada, shaken them down for testimony changes, and the US courts couldn't acknowledge it.

I do get the idea of intimidation of a witness in this case. Armstrong, in his special zeal to humiliate Simeoni, has certainly lost some of my respect and may well have broken Italian court law. I don't think it will amount to anything other than newspaper buzz, but he's still an ass.

I'm a little confused. (normal situation). How exactly did Lance "herd" Simeoni back to the peloton? Did he get in front of him and block his way? Did he get behind him and suck his wheel? If Lance bridged the gap isn't that a testimony to his riding skill? It seems that Simeoni is like the kid on the playground who goes crying to his teacher and saying "They're picking on me".


As I recall, the reason Simeoni went back to the break was that Lance cut a deal with the other members of the break. The deal was "If the rest of you guys tell Simeoni to go back, we'll let the break go, if not we'll chase down the break." The other members of the break accepted this proposal, told Simeoni to go back..and as a result of peer pressure, that's exactly what he did. The break was successful as a result with Mercado winning stage 18. This is detailed at:

http://www.velonews.com/tour2004/details/articles/6647.0.html

Evidently, Lance is not the only one in the peloton who doesn't like Simeoni. There are a number of other riders who don't as well, with the comment that Simeoni talks negatively about the peloton but there are precious few details about the comments Simeoni has made.

If Simeoni is suing Armstrong for defamation, then the evidence of intimidation will applicable wherever the court case is held, regardless of where the alleged intimidation took place. If it were otherwise, the american mafia could have grabbed witnesses, pulled them into canada, shaken them down for testimony changes, and the US courts couldn't acknowledge it.

I do get the idea of intimidation of a witness in this case. Armstrong, in his special zeal to humiliate Simeoni, has certainly lost some of my respect and may well have broken Italian court law. I don't think it will amount to anything other than newspaper buzz, but he's still an ass.

Makes sense, I didn't even think of it that way. Thank you.

Yeah. Why didn't Simeoni just continue his bridge up to the breakaway with Lance on his wheel? I'm serious. What better way to have made a statement about what an arse Lance was?

He did.

What happens between the lines, stays between the lines. If you can't handle it, stay out of the lines. Simeoni is a punk, and got what he deserved. Lance and USPS called him out, and he can't handle it. How can Italian autorities bring charges on Lance for something that happened in France? Should the French be outraged about this violation of juristiction? Is there something in the EU charter that allows this?

Anyone ever heard of a lawsuit between athletes from on the feild actions?

Yes, a well known case included in most law school tort casebooks (i.e. textbooks). Here is the US Supreme Court citation where they reversed the initial trial judge's holding of an assumption of risk: Hackbart v. Cincinnati Bengals, Inc. and Charles Clark, 601 F.2d 516; 444 U.S. 931 [1979]

One of Hackbart's Denver Broncho teamates intercepted a pass, Hackbart blocked Clark. After the play was dead, while Hackbart was still kneeling on the ground, out of frustration Clark went over and struck Hackbart, on the back of neck fracturing his neck. Hackbart filed suit for battery. As Clark's actions were clearly outside the league competition rules that barred such violence, Clark enjoyed no legal defense of implied consent by Hackbart's participation in the game.

As for Italian authorities having jursdition over Lance-if Lance is attempting to influence a witness in a case in an Italian court (in this case the Ferrari case), they have jurisdiction independent of where the pressure was applied because the court case is in Italy. Concurrent jurisdiction could also exist with France.

I'd think it way overeaching for an Italian prosecutor to assert jurisdiction on pursue sports fraud charges on an event that takes place in France and Belgium. (Did I leave out any other countries?)