Classic and Vintage Bicycles: What's it Worth? Appraisals and Inquiries - 1974 Paramount P10

Hello, I'm hoping someone can help me appraise this Paramount. I believe everything is original, including the can of Schwinn approved Self Spraying "Bike Care Product" Serial Number is D7469 and the Owners Manual has hand written (P10). The hubs are Record, wheels Weinmann, the chainring is 42/52, Nuovo Record rear derailleur. The rust on the rear is only on that side and looks to be only on the surface. I started wiping it off after a quick shot of PB Blaster. Any help is appreciated.
http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/9480/img4899o.jpg (http://img210.imageshack.us/i/img4899o.jpg/)
http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/6744/img4901.jpg (http://img210.imageshack.us/i/img4901.jpg/)
http://img122.imageshack.us/img122/598/img4900.jpg (http://img122.imageshack.us/i/img4900.jpg/)
http://img94.imageshack.us/img94/868/img4903n.jpg (http://img94.imageshack.us/i/img4903n.jpg/)
http://img94.imageshack.us/img94/9360/img4906.jpg (http://img94.imageshack.us/i/img4906.jpg/)
http://img122.imageshack.us/img122/2860/img4908d.jpg (http://img122.imageshack.us/i/img4908d.jpg/)
http://img94.imageshack.us/img94/7222/img4912.jpg (http://img94.imageshack.us/i/img4912.jpg/)
http://img185.imageshack.us/img185/6505/img4868.jpg (http://img185.imageshack.us/i/img4868.jpg/)
http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/6530/img4872u.jpg (http://img62.imageshack.us/i/img4872u.jpg/)
http://img110.imageshack.us/img110/8144/img4867.jpg (http://img110.imageshack.us/i/img4867.jpg/)

hmm, it's in pretty rough shape.. I'd let ebay decide but I think $500 tops?

Shame about the rust, but if you clean it up carefully, it will look 100% better than it does now. If you plan to sell, list the tools separately. You might even want to sell each tool individually, but it's possible they are worth some coin as a 'Paramount' set.

No clue on the value of the Schwinn lubricant, but I'm sure there's some Schwinn nut out there who just has to have it.

I was thinking of using Naval Jelly for the rust. Any better suggestions to remove the rust? The other yellowish stuff is grime that wipes off, and the white streaky stuff on the frame comes off with a rag and elbow grease.

I was thinking of using Naval Jelly for the rust. Any better suggestions to remove the rust? The other yellowish stuff is grime that wipes off, and the white streaky stuff on the frame comes off with a rag and elbow grease.

I'm sure it will clean up nicely. Naval Jelly will probably work. Some on the forums like oxalic acid (wood bleach - do a search for suggestions/precautions). Just be sure not to dunk aluminum bits in the acid, set it in a well ventilated area, wear proper protection and neutralize it before dumping. If not the frame, the smaller chrome bits and fasteners would clean up nicely in the oxalic acid. Be sure to remove the grease before soaking pieces in oxalic acid, as it will prevent penetration of the acid solution.

+1, oxalic acid is a great option. I just soaked a frame with great results. Make sure you get the insides of the tube dry (compressed air, hair dryer) Then treat the insides with something like framesaver.

Thanks for the info on oxalic acid, I'll try that before naval jelly. I will attempt to clean it up before putting it on Craigslist or Ebay. Heck, I might just fall in love with it!

One oxalic acid tip, use a magnet to make sure you are not putting aluminum in the mix. The campy derailleurs are great because they can be taken almost completely apart and rebuilt.

Nice find. There are plenty of threads on this forum re all aspects of cleaning bikes and components. A few hours spent cleaning your Paramount will increase its value. You'll also be able to speak with more credibility as to its overall condition. I agree with JYB as to its current value. Be sure to check the seat post and stem to see if they are seized up.

Thanks everyone for your thoughts and advice. What do you think its worth now, after cleaning? JunkYardBike, I'm curious as to why sell the tools separately? I was thinking an all inclusive package.

http://img44.imageshack.us/img44/3109/seriald7469.jpg (http://img44.imageshack.us/i/seriald7469.jpg/)
http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/4186/chromelugs.jpg (http://img132.imageshack.us/i/chromelugs.jpg/)
http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/7439/rderail.jpg (http://img10.imageshack.us/i/rderail.jpg/)
http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/6908/fnthandlebars.jpg (http://img33.imageshack.us/i/fnthandlebars.jpg/)
http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/6735/frontwheel2.jpg (http://img40.imageshack.us/i/frontwheel2.jpg/)
http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/5598/handlebarscloseup.jpg (http://img18.imageshack.us/i/handlebarscloseup.jpg/)
http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/306/frontbrake.jpg (http://img10.imageshack.us/i/frontbrake.jpg/)
http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/4841/crankb.jpg (http://img39.imageshack.us/i/crankb.jpg/)
http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/7310/74p10full.jpg (http://img39.imageshack.us/i/74p10full.jpg/)

Wow, you really did it...

I think this is one the best transformations Ive seen on these threads...

You were given great advice, and followed through wonderfully.

Thanks everyone for your thoughts and advice. What do you think its worth now, after cleaning?.

Same price.....maybe $50 more. It is what is, you removed the visible rust but the damage is done. You did an excellent job reconditioning it.

Outstanding transformation!

I have a similar P 15, a 73. It was in rough condition, not as rough as yours, and it cleaned up quite nicely. Schwinn used good paints and excellent chrome.

You may be able to clean the decals with a very light touch and a light abrasive. I cleaned mine with a clear coat polishing compound and that yellow went away nicely. Proceed at your own risk, and test a small, inconspicuous area first. I think you will be pleased with the results.

I'd also advise selling the tools separately. Alone, they go for about $100. If you include them with the complete bike, you likely won't get that much extra for them.

I'd also advise selling the tools separately. Alone, they go for about $100. If you include them with the complete bike, you likely won't get that much extra for them.

+1 It would be nice to include, and it might enhance the final sales price of the bike slightly, but for maximum profit (which might not be your main goal) sell them separately.

Nice job on the cleanup. It definitely shows better, so I think it might increase the value more than $50, but as miamijim says, much of the chrome has been damaged. If you sell it on ebay with photos only, I'd suggest you be forthcoming about the chrome pitting, but don't overdo it. I've seen listings with lots of 'negative' photos that skew the overall condition of the bike, making it look worse than it really is.

You might also consider replacing the tape. I assume you tried washing it, but it's the least attractive area of an otherwise excellent reconditioning job. Also, consider polishing the hubs a bit, with Blue Magic or other non-abrasive polishing compound.

I didn't attempt to clean the tape, but I might try. I just didn't want to accidentally mess up something original. I tried to clean the wheels but they are in rough shape and the white haze just won't clean off even after much elbow grease and Nevr-Dull. I also tried a bit of Turtle Wax Polishing Compound which fared better, but in the end I think it will take a lot of time.

How did you get the paint so shiny? Great job.


Same price.....maybe $50 more. It is what is, you removed the visible rust but the damage is done. You did an excellent job reconditioning it.

Was there a lot of damage? It seems to have been only surface rust and grime...right?

The paint cleaned up easily with Greased Lightning and Shop Towels (the blue ones) I was afraid of rubbing off the decals with terry cloth. The rust came off with a bit of Naval Jelly and a lot of Nevr-Dull. I didn't find any spots that went into the metal. The wheels are a different story. There is rust on the spokes and a white film on the rims.

Nice work! It's nice to see a bike like this get some care. Good luck on your sale.

It's a shame about the mistreatment that led to it's present condition, but I must give you a standing ovation for that cleanup job.

It's not often someone comes to Appraisals and Inquiries and truly puts their heart and soul into prepping their item for an attractive sale.

-Kurt

Same price.....maybe $50 more. It is what is, you removed the visible rust but the damage is done. You did an excellent job reconditioning it.

Agreed, looks better but I see the missing chrome on dustcaps and chainrings and that rear hub looks aweful, the wheel will have to be rebuilt and the hub polished. Actually, the frame looks clean but the chrome looks like it's in pretty bad shape still.

How did you get the paint so shiny? Great job.



Was there a lot of damage? It seems to have been only surface rust and grime...right?

The rust. 2 minutes in the rain or 2 minutes caught under a lawan sprinker and its coming right back.

The rust. 2 minutes in the rain or 2 minutes caught under a lawn sprinkler and its coming right back.

Furthermore, just look at the pitting where the rust was - particularly on the RH chainstay near the dropout.

That said, I'm not sure I agree with your +$50 assessment, Jim. eBayers are the type of fools that will completely overlook that pitting unless its pointed out to them (and will therefore assume the overall condition to be excellent).

-Kurt

All of the feedback raises a curiosity question; whether or not to clean up a bike like this or sell as is. My intention of cleaning it was to make it more presentable, thus increasing its value. I suppose whoever buys it can take it to the next level of restoration and fix any re-rusting problems, which are out of my scope, aside from using some Krylon clear coat...sounds like a bad idea :( Ideally, I'd like to make a local pick up sale, so the buyer can see the true condition.

All of the feedback raises a curiosity question; whether or not to clean up a bike like this or sell as is. My intention of cleaning it was to make it more presentable, thus increasing its value. I suppose whoever buys it can take it to the next level of restoration and fix any re-rusting problems, which are out of my scope, aside from using some Krylon clear coat...sounds like a bad idea :( Ideally, I'd like to make a local pick up sale, so the buyer can see the true condition.

Time is free. It never hurts to clean up a bike, never. Presentation makes a big difference which in turn draws in more prospective buyers.

All of the feedback raises a curiosity question; whether or not to clean up a bike like this or sell as is. My intention of cleaning it was to make it more presentable, thus increasing its value. I suppose whoever buys it can take it to the next level of restoration and fix any re-rusting problems, which are out of my scope, aside from using some Krylon clear coat...sounds like a bad idea :( Ideally, I'd like to make a local pick up sale, so the buyer can see the true condition.

Local pickup ensures a low selling price on ebay. If you want local pickup, you need to try Craigs List. But its hard to get Paramount type money on C/L.

As far as cleanup, without cleaning it up, buyers will guess at overall condition, and most will guess low (and bid low). A couple of hours of cleanup should garner $100 or more in price increase.

+1 That stay chrome pitting is pretty serious.

As long as you are honest about what you are selling, and don't attempt deceit, there's nothing wrong with cleaning it like you did. There is pitting on the stay, but I'm not sure I would call it 'serious', as in a compromise to structural integrity. Paramount shoppers aren't all complete idiots, and most will study your photos carefully. Just look at the Q&A section of any Paramount listing on ebay and see how the 'experts' often correct a seller about year, model, etc.

Like I said before, I wouldn't include macro shots of the pitting (unless it makes you more comfortable), but simply state in your ad text that there is pitting in the chrome left after you cleaned it up. Your photo does show it, and I think it's a fair and balanced representation.

Like I said before, I wouldn't include macro shots of the pitting (unless it makes you more comfortable), but simply state in your ad text that there is pitting in the chrome left after you cleaned it up. Your photo does show it, and I think it's a fair and balanced representation.

I would, it instills absolute confidence in the buyer. As someone stated above, trying to selling the bike in the dirty state cause the buyer to guess on the condition and err on the side of caution. If you say there is pitting but do not show a photo again the buyer is forced to assume the worst. If you say "there is pitting, but nothing serious" you open the opportunity for debate as opinions are relative (case and point: the last two posts above this one). I think pitting that is visible such as in that photo is seriously detrimental to the value as the chrome on the stay is in quite poor cosmetic shape, I feel it would need to be re-chromed to be properly restores. To me that is serious! and a huge expense.

To me that is serious! and a huge expense.

+1. If I bought a frameset only to find about pitting such as on this chainstay after the fact, I'd be mad as hell at the seller.

-Kurt

A big attaboy to Dadzilla for providing another Paramount thread for us. I like the clean up job you did and another more thorough cleaning/detailing by a future owner will make that Paramount really shine. I'd have no problem peeling off seven Benjamins for that Paramount. Too bad you are on the East Coast.

I would, it instills absolute confidence in the buyer. As someone stated above, trying to selling the bike in the dirty state cause the buyer to guess on the condition and err on the side of caution. If you say there is pitting but do not show a photo again the buyer is forced to assume the worst. If you say "there is pitting, but nothing serious" you open the opportunity for debate as opinions are relative (case and point: the last two posts above this one). I think pitting that is visible such as in that photo is seriously detrimental to the value as the chrome on the stay is in quite poor cosmetic shape, I feel it would need to be re-chromed to be properly restores. To me that is serious! and a huge expense.

First, I think the photo he has of the rear dropout/rear derailleur is sufficient (I don't consider it a macro shot). It clearly depicts the pitting, at least to me. In my experience, when I've sold items online that include macro shots, I've had several buyers/trade recipients tell me that the item was in far better condition than they thought. So, there's an inherent problem in that magnified photos are not representative of what most people would see with the naked eye. This also goes for photos where a flash was used, which often show blemishes nearly invisible to the naked eye.

Now, the positive side of representing it as worse than it may appear in person is that the buyer won't be disappointed. The downside, of course, is that it may scare away potential buyers and the seller may not get a fair market price. Bottom line is that condition is subjective, and it's sometimes difficult to present an objective representation on the internet.

I agree with your point about opinion - I never said he should explain that the pitting is not bad. I simply said include a photo of the pitting from a short distance (vs. macro) and state that there is pitting. If the buyer wants a more detailed description or photos, then provide them.