Group Buy - Is there still a market for titanium frames? or a groupbuy?

Hi folks,

Considering how things are developing and how the current SOUL Faith groupbuy has gone I was contemplating whether there was a market for a titanium frame groupbuy as well?

So, say either our SOUL Corpus or SOUL Destiny as a platform and going from there. Or does the market look at titanium as a more utilitarian frame material choice and just want it as cheap as possible ( straight gauge, round tubing).

Good thing about a titanium frame groupbuy is that we will be able to offer our wheels together as a package and also a complete bike build package. So discuss away.

1) Corpus or Destiny
2) Straight gauge/ double butted
3) Price range expected
4) Primary usage for the frame
5) BB30

Regards,
Sean Wai

how about a link to your frames?

http://www.bikesoul.com/framedivision.html

My $0.02:

Start with the 2009 Destiny
# Tube: Double Butted 3a/2.5v, oversized for extra stiffness, especially the downtube
# Finish: Handbrushed
# Geometry: traditional horizontal, 50/51cm ST x 53cm Top Tube
# Expected weight in above size: 2.6 lbs
# Seatstay: Hour-glass, like Cannondale CAAD
# Dropout: Soul
# BB Shell: BB30 w/ adaptor
# Price: about $1000
# Usage: training and racing

I would love to see one for the Ti frame with the blasted Soul graphics.

such a beautiful bike

I would love to see one for the Ti frame with the blasted Soul graphics.

such a beautiful bike

Destiny.

http://bikesoul.com/2009/images/stories/framedivision/destiny01.jpg

Destiny.

http://bikesoul.com/2009/images/stories/framedivision/destiny01.jpg

That looks like an older Destiny before they went with the gimmicky diamond-shaped tubes and funky curved seat stays.
http://www.bikesoul.com/framedivision/destiny.jpg

for me

# Tube: Double Butted 3a/2.5v, multi geometries (non round non teardrop shaped) for top tube and downtube
# Finish: Half painted (3 color) half bare
# Geometry: Compact with 58cm virtual top tube
# Expected weight ?
# Seatstay: oval or square straight
#Chain stays: oval or square and not "dented" at bb to clear chain ring or rear wheel <<< important
# Dropout: not the cheap laser cut flats like is common on cheap frames
# BB Shell: 68mm not that BB30 crap
# Price: about $800 delivered
# Usage: training and racing

One OT comment:

IMO, the semi-sloping top tube looks okay on the larger sizes and probably saves a decent amount of weight as well, but in the smaller sizes, they always look MTB'ish, don't leave enough room for the seat tube bottle cage, and don't save as much weight.

Sean, how about keeping the semi-sloping geometry for the largers sizes and gradually transition to horizontal for the smaller sizes. IMO, designing a frame for stand-over clearance by having a sloping top-tube in the smaller sizes really removes a lot from the frame, functionally and aesthetically.

They're both beautiful frames but their prices are not in line (currently) with some other poster's "wish list." With that, could you throw a dart at what type of discount could be realized based on your msrp's??? Thanks,

A reasonable foil?

http://www.bikesdirect.com/products/motobecane/lechamp_teamti_10_frameset.htm

Destiny.

http://bikesoul.com/2009/images/stories/framedivision/destiny01.jpg

Holy cow I would so want to own that bike...stealthy and understated. Don't like all the bikes that seem like rolling billboards....

That looks like an older Destiny before they went with the gimmicky diamond-shaped tubes and funky curved seat stays.

It's actually the latest model.

http://bikesoul.com/2009/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=32&Itemid=41

I would say a groupbuy on the Destiny would be fantastic. Brushed finish, etched, minimalist logos (like they are currently) and BB30. A price of around $1200 would be reasonable considering offerings from Lynskey on one end and BD on the other.

It's actually the latest model.

http://bikesoul.com/2009/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=32&Itemid=41

I would say a groupbuy on the Destiny would be fantastic. Brushed finish, etched, minimalist logos (like they are currently) and BB30. A price of around $1200 would be reasonable considering offerings from Lynskey on one end and BD on the other.

You can get a Performance Ti frame for as low as $799.
You can order a Ti frame from Asia for less than that.
$1200 is way over the top imho

I would pay up to $1200, not for any reason other than that is all my budget would allow.

That would be for the new destiny, brushed finish w/ sand blasted graphics. I would get the frame and then spend probably the next year acquiring parts but it would be damn close to my dream bike once it was completed

This is not available anymore?

Progeny:

http://www.bikesoul.com/progeny.html

You can get a Performance Ti frame for as low as $799.
You can order a Ti frame from Asia for less than that.
$1200 is way over the top imho

A fully CUSTOM Ti frame for much less than $1200 at that. And that's the single purchase price as well.

It's actually the latest model.

http://bikesoul.com/2009/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=32&Itemid=41

I would say a groupbuy on the Destiny would be fantastic. Brushed finish, etched, minimalist logos (like they are currently) and BB30. A price of around $1200 would be reasonable considering offerings from Lynskey on one end and BD on the other.

Oooh. Good catch. I don't know how I even got to the page for the old frame.
That 2009 Destiny is the ticket.

1) Corpus or Destiny

Destiny, based on the pics posted of your "personal ride"

2) Straight gauge/ double butted

I'll leave that to the experts.

3) Price range expected

Max $800 for frameset, based on current market offerings of similar products (performance, BD). Keep in mind folks have to factor in shipping ($200/frameset according to the soul faith groupbuy) when pricing.

4) Primary usage for the frame

long rides/ centuries / training.

5) BB30

People seem to swear by it so might as well include it. There's always the adapter for those who want to use older cranksets.

I'd vote for a semi-sloping top tube semi-compact geometry, still raceable but comfy enough for long rides...i'm getting the frame just because it is titanium, and i'm counting on the frame outliving my road biking life.

The ghosting graphics on titanium look very very nice.

Big yes for including wheels and/or full bike build kit as part of the group buy.

AQ

Considering how things are developing and how the current SOUL Faith groupbuy has gone I was contemplating whether there was a market for a titanium frame groupbuy as well?
Only if you call it the SOUL Garden of Gethsemane.

If I could afford a Ti frame, I'd be all over this.

Unlike carbon fiber, there won't be much of a group-buy discount with Ti frames. The time savings for building the Ti frames just doesn't scale like with carbon fiber frames.

Habanero offers Ti frames for about $900

Straight Gauge 3/2 ti, and use PressFit30. There is no machining necessary like with BB30 and you can lower your costs

Could you possibly do S&S couplers?

Could you possibly do S&S couplers?

This.

I would likely be all over this if it come with couplers.

Destiny frame for sure, your personal ride is very very cool! If wheels and complete/partial builds are offered too I would get wheels and just build the bike over the next year as i could afford. I would be very interested in a group buy on the destiny with BB30, sloping top tube, 2x butted tubes and geometry good for long rides (60-120miles), club rides and general training. Love to hear what you can offer. I really like the looks of your 4.0 CC wheels and like I said, the Destiny with the ghost graphics looks fantastic!

The Destiny frame is a great looking frame and love the understated graphics/logos. I've never researched TI frame prices but would be in if the frame came it at $950 shipped.

Well, looks like there is "some" kind of interest for the frames. The Destiny cost alot of money to make, it's got butting for all tubes, including the seat and chainstays. It's also made by I would say the best titanium frame makers in China (they made China's space shuttle as well).... So at USD1000, I am losing money...

We can reduce the specifications and butting for the Destiny and lower the cost significantly or we can offer the Corpus as a base with the ghosted graphics. But it won't look as nice as a Destiny. That's what can be done for that kind of money. Actually it all boils down to quantity. If we can get about 30-50 frames as a groupbuy prices can be reduced significantly and we may be able to offer the destiny. But I don't think there is enough demand.

In regards to the geometry, I totally understand about making smaller frames with less slope for the toptube but it's actually counter intuitive. As you get to the lower spectrum of sizes you find more people needing more standover height and hence the sloping top tube. We've actually kept most frames to 6 deg sloping top tube which I think looks the best.

http://www.performancebike.com/images/performance/products/large/30-1655-TTM-SIDE.JPGhttp://www.performancebike.com/images/performance/products/large/30-1655-TTM-EXTRA2.JPG

The Performance Ti (with some association with Lynsky) frame looks like it has a "manipulated" downtube. (different shape at ht and bb). I would say yours would have to be better than this one in some way other than name at the same price point or lower.

I think that you raised a very important point and one that I was trying to get a feel of. IF there is an interest in a titanium group buy frame, then are you guys (the ones who are actually going to buy one), looking for the cheapest possible frame? or a high performance/ spec frame at a good price?

Because if we were to offer a straight gauge frame similar to the scattante, the price can be much cheaper but it's going to be heavy.

I agree with Rich and the others. The Soul Ti bike looks nice, but it is priced too high.

You can get an American titanium frame, for hundreds less. Yes. American. As in USA. Let me repeat that. US of A! For less than your Asian titanium frame. I am sure that the Asian Ti frame is of good quality, but no way that the welds are even comparable to the welds that Lynskey is making.

Compare.

USA made Lynskey ti rebadged frame (Scattante) double butted titanium frame sale price $799.
Unknown China ti rebadged frame (Soul) double butted titanium frame group buy price $1299.


Are you smoking crack?! You cannot compete. You have no idea about the Scattante, weight, or butting profiles. Your assumption that it is a lower quality single butted frame is wrong. It is double-butted. Regardless, you cannot justify the high price on that outsourced frame compared to what Lynskey and other manufacturers offer. Honestly, stick with aluminum and carbon offerings. The Americans own the Titanium high end market and now the lower end market as well. Hey, someone had to say it.
:)

I think that you raised a very important point and one that I was trying to get a feel of. IF there is an interest in a titanium group buy frame, then are you guys (the ones who are actually going to buy one), looking for the cheapest possible frame? or aat a good price?

Because if we were to offer a straight gauge frame similar to the scattante, the price can be r but it's going to be heavy.

We can allready buy an inexpensive straight gauge frame any day of the week when we are ready. Why would we buy it from your group buy unless the price was much better than what we can easly already get?

"mid performance/ spec frame much cheaper" is what I would want in a group buy
I dont really want a super light ti frame since Im not interested in the problems that go along with that. If I want light I would go for a inexpensive carbon frame and plan on only keeping it for a season or two.

I don't want to get into a shouting match or name calling session with you because I assume we are all adults here. Since we are on the topic, can you show me where it says that the Scattante is wholely MADE in the USA? I'm curious as well. In fact it doesn't state anywhere that it is actually MADE by Lynskey.

I did not say it was of lower quality and merely pointed out that if the Scattante was to be used as a yardstick, then we should really be comparing the same spec and then lowering the price from there. The scattante frames have been reported by customers to be "2.8 lbs for a S size"... doesn't sound like a double butted frame to me.

Let's not go into the whole USA is better than the rest of the world argument, there is a time and place for that and I would hope that this thread stays on track for the most part for those who are actually interested in a groupbuy for a titanium frame.

If I were to rephrase my question, for those who are keen on a groupbuy for a titanium frame, are you interested in getting a cheaper made titanium frame as a backup bike, or a race worthy titanium frame at a very good price?


I agree with Rich and the others. The Soul Ti bike looks nice, but it is priced too high.

You can get an American titanium frame, for hundreds less. Yes. American. As in USA. Let me repeat that. US or A! For less than your Asian titanium frame. I am sure that the Asian Ti frame is of good quality, but no way that the welds are even comparable to the welds that Lynskey is making.

Compare.

USA made Lynskey ti rebadged frame (Scattante) double butted titanium frame sale price $799.
Unknown China ti rebadged frame (Soul) double butted titanium frame group buy price $1299.


Are you smoking crack?! You cannot compete. You have no idea about the Scattante, weight, or butting profiles. Your assumption that it is a lower quality single butted frame is wrong. So, you cannot justify your high price on your frame. Honestly, stick with aluminum and carbon offerings. The Americans own the Titanium high end market and now the lower end market as well. Hey, someone had to say it.
:)

Ok, that is a good way of putting it. And points again more towards the Corpus frame which we can definitely do for around 800-850 shipped. As I have always told customers, the Corpus is already a really race worthy frame and the Destiny is just with bells and whistles.


We can allready buy an inexpensive straight gauge frame any day of the week when we are ready. Why would we buy it from your group buy unless the price was better much than what we can easly already get?

"mid performance/ spec frame much cheaper" is what I would want in a group buy
I dont really want a super light ti frame since Im not interested in the problems that go along with that. If I want light I would go for a inexpensive carbon frame and plan on only keeping it for a season or two.

oh and NO BB30 for me thank you

A race worthy titanium frame at a very good price works for me. I'll continue to monitor the progress. Lp

I don't want to get into a shouting match or name calling session with you because I assume we are all adults here. Since we are on the topic, can you show me where it says that the Scattante is wholely MADE in the USA? I'm curious as well. In fact it doesn't state anywhere that it is actually MADE by Lynskey.

The Scattante frame is made by Lynskey from tubes supplied by Performance Bike. There are several threads on BF about the bike, including some people who had called Lynskey to confirm. I don't recall if it is mentioned where Performance sourced their tubing.

Performance website does state the Lynskey connection:
http://www.performancebike.com/bikes//Product_10052_10551_1062264_-1___

Current price is $999, but they have been doing sales off & on since mid summer with prices getting below $800 in some cases.

I wish I would have bought one.:(

Sean,

Please define "a very good price". I am interested in a good quality Ti frame as long as it is a good price for me. As we do not have a set price, at this point all this discussion is, shall we say "academic". To be honest, I was (and still am) disappointed in the "lightweight" aluminum frame group buy. At the end, it neither was lightweight, nor was it at the price point it set out from.

Again, please set your price and frame specs, so that we at least have some solid info to start with. This "let's make it up as we go along" does not appeal to me.

Ok, that is a good way of putting it. And points again more towards the Corpus frame which we can definitely do for around 800-850 shipped.

That would have me interested.

I don't want to get into a shouting match or name calling session with you because I assume we are all adults here. Since we are on the topic, can you show me where it says that the Scattante is wholely MADE in the USA? I'm curious as well. In fact it doesn't state anywhere that it is actually MADE by Lynskey.

I did not say it was of lower quality and merely pointed out that if the Scattante was to be used as a yardstick, then we should really be comparing the same spec and then lowering the price from there. The scattante frames have been reported by customers to be "2.8 lbs for a S size"... doesn't sound like a double butted frame to me.

Let's not go into the whole USA is better than the rest of the world argument, there is a time and place for that and I would hope that this thread stays on track for the most part for those who are actually interested in a groupbuy for a titanium frame.

If I were to rephrase my question, for those who are keen on a groupbuy for a titanium frame, are you interested in getting a cheaper made titanium frame as a backup bike, or a race worthy titanium frame at a very good price?

I have one of those Scattante Ti frames; my understanding based on my conversations with Lynskey and Performance Bike is that the tubes were provided to them by Performance (probably of Asian origin), and the frames were prepped/welded/painted by Lynskey. Performance also told me that they have Lynskey's permission to say the frames are made by Lynksey, although I will tell you right now that it sounded like Lynskey did not want to be associated with these frames when I called them up to ask some questions. The frames ship in a Lynskey labeled box.

The tubes are butted (not sure if they are double-butted, though), and their bi-ovalized shape resembles the tubes used by Lynskey for their R330 frames. The weight for my size Medium frame (~55cm) was 1,370g including seatpost collar, bottle cage bolts, rear derailleur hanger, BB cable guide, and the head tube badge (which weighs 8g). That is about 100g heavier than a Lynskey R330 of similar size.

With all these said, I have been impressed with the stiffness and ride quality of the Scattante Ti frame. I can't imagine how a frame costing two or three times the price would be any significantly better (besides being lighter by a few hundred grams). For the record, I got mine for $699 during a recent sale.

Doesn't this stuff belong in the market place forum?

Doesn't this stuff belong in the market place forum?

assclown from bd does this type of thing all the time in this and other forums (excessive) and doesnt get bumped WHICH I WISH THE MODS WOULD DO

we dont hear from Soul with 5 threads a week and Im enjoying this topic

I hope it stays here

sean,

please define "a very good price". I am interested in a good quality ti frame as long as it is a good price for me. As we do not have a set price, at this point all this discussion is, shall we say "academic". To be honest, i was (and still am) disappointed in the "lightweight" aluminum frame group buy. At the end, it neither was lightweight, nor was it at the price point it set out from.

Again, please set your price and frame specs, so that we at least have some solid info to start with. This "let's make it up as we go along" does not appeal to me.

+1

i would without a doubt buy a corpus http://www.bikesoul.com/corpus.html brushed w/ etched logos for 850 shipped. Better looking (IMO) and better finish than the scanttante

You can skip this mess on the drop outs for me. I can see cracks forming there about the 2nd week I ride the thing

http://www.bikesoul.com/framedivision/corpus3.jpg

I agree with Rich and the others. The Soul Ti bike looks nice, but it is priced too high.

You can get an American titanium frame, for hundreds less. Yes. American. As in USA. Let me repeat that. US of A! For less than your Asian titanium frame. I am sure that the Asian Ti frame is of good quality, but no way that the welds are even comparable to the welds that Lynskey is making.

Compare.

USA made Lynskey ti rebadged frame (Scattante) double butted titanium frame sale price $799.
Unknown China ti rebadged frame (Soul) double butted titanium frame group buy price $1299.


Are you smoking crack?! You cannot compete. You have no idea about the Scattante, weight, or butting profiles. Your assumption that it is a lower quality single butted frame is wrong. It is double-butted. Regardless, you cannot justify the high price on that outsourced frame compared to what Lynskey and other manufacturers offer. Honestly, stick with aluminum and carbon offerings. The Americans own the Titanium high end market and now the lower end market as well. Hey, someone had to say it.
:)

There's always some blowhard muppet that can't provide feedback without sounding ridiculous.
:rolleyes:

I think people need to

a) start getting realistic on prices and wants and
b) start being more respectful to what Sean is trying to do here.

Just because a bike is made in Asia does not mean that it will necessarily be of inferior quality to an "American"-made frame. Also, get real - you're not going to be able to get a double-butted, 2.5 lb, bells-and-whistles titanium frame for $800 shipped.

I think Sean is being remarkably patient with the loudmouths - keep it up! :)

Straight seat stays wtf

Just because a bike is made in Asia does not mean that it will necessarily be of inferior quality to an "American"-made frame. Also, get real - you're not going to be able to get a double-butted, 2.5 lb, bells-and-whistles titanium frame for $800 shipped.

Most people no longer have a problem with the fact that their frames are made in Asia. However, the difference between Soul and a few others (Neuvation comes to mind) is that the product is then sold from Asia by an Asian company. While Sean has shown himself to be helpful and trustworthy, there's no guarantee he is still around 5 years from now. Even if he is, it's a pain to ship a frame across the world to have it inspected if there is a problem. I realize you don't have that guarantee for any American provider either, but at least you have a legal chance of getting some help if they go under with your money.

Because of that, I would expect to pay less or get higher quality than an American supported frame to take on that risk. At $800 for the Performance/Lynskey frame (on sale), I think it's pretty reasonable to shoot for something either lower in price, or similar price for a better product.

I don't think people are trying to be disrespectful, just voicing what they would buy or would not buy, which is what he wants to hear. It's not an issue of someone not being able to produce a quality product because they are Asian and not American.

Well, looks like there is "some" kind of interest for the frames. The Destiny cost alot of money to make, it's got butting for all tubes, including the seat and chainstays. It's also made by I would say the best titanium frame makers in China (they made China's space shuttle as well).... So at USD1000, I am losing money...

We can reduce the specifications and butting for the Destiny and lower the cost significantly or we can offer the Corpus as a base with the ghosted graphics. But it won't look as nice as a Destiny. That's what can be done for that kind of money. Actually it all boils down to quantity. If we can get about 30-50 frames as a groupbuy prices can be reduced significantly and we may be able to offer the destiny. But I don't think there is enough demand.

In regards to the geometry, I totally understand about making smaller frames with less slope for the toptube but it's actually counter intuitive. As you get to the lower spectrum of sizes you find more people needing more standover height and hence the sloping top tube. We've actually kept most frames to 6 deg sloping top tube which I think looks the best.

Standover is not really relevant as noone straddles the frame in the real world. Even so, at 5'5" when straddling my horizontal-top-tube, 50cm (2007 Pinarello Galileo) framed bike, I still have over 2" of clearance with my cycling shoes on. I have even less clearance on my cyclocross bike that I race and have been in a few spills on and have never had a problem with "standover" clearance.

I think there is still a market for Ti framesets, but you don't make anything that is even close to fitting my long legs/short torso:(.