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I'm relatively new to the biking world but I've been lifting weights for over a year now. I was wondering if anyone who rides reguarly strength trains their legs i.e. squats, leg press, calf raise, hamstring raises. I'm just curious what a strong rider can squat for reps.
I'm sure most cyclist don't strength train hardcore to keep their weight as low as possible. I'm just curious to see what others are doing besides riding.
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good endurance riders can't do much in terms of weights. in fact elite trained endurance riders are, on average, no stronger than age, gender, and mass matched, sedentary controls. they may even be weaker, as aerobic machinery replaces contractile proteins under endurance training regimens.
ric
are powerful legs good for cyclocross?
yes, but powerful is something completely different to strength. you need to be very powerful to be an endurance racing cyclist, but strength doesn't matter
ric
oh, i guess all my strength training will be useless :(
good endurance riders can't do much in terms of weights. in fact elite trained endurance riders are, on average, no stronger than age, gender, and mass matched, sedentary controls. they may even be weaker, as aerobic machinery replaces contractile proteins under endurance training regimens.
ric
As Lance Armstrong is a good endurance rider (for example), are you stating that he is no stronger than others in his age group?
I may believe more inclined to believe this if an endurance rider does little or no strength training and spends most of their time doing aerobic activity, but Chris Carmichael does stress strength training in the off season for Lance, as well as weight training for muscle maintenance during the competitive season.
I think that if an endurance rider is trying to lift heavy for weight training to gain maximum muscle mass, there is definitely going to be compromising of endurance capabilities. An endurance rider does use weight training to strengthen muscles, but I don't think they use strength training to build massive muscles. All that extra weight would actually hinder them with speed, hills, etc.
I was under the impression that athletes are encouraged to use weight training to maintain muscle mass, and especially to prevent more of their Type II, or fast twitch, muscle fibers from converting as quickly to type I, or slow twitch), muscle fibers as a person ages, as well as to train the Type 1 muscle fibers to contract more quickly (of course, I am talking generally, since I do know there are different types of muscle fibers). While I do think that over time, endurance athletes' Type II muscle can covert from B to A, which can lead to a somewhat weakened response, they should still have more overall strength than the undtrained sedentary person of the same age group and gender.
This is what I believe Joe Signorile, who lectures and does research in exercise physiology and aging in Miami was telling us when I attended his last lecture. Dr. Len Kravitz, who is also does research solely for exercise physiology at New Mexico, also lectured as much when I saw him at his last lecture.
Are you assuming that the sedentary controls are doing the same strength training as the endurance athlete and the sedentary controls are not doing endurance, or do you assume that the endurance athlete does no resistance training, and only does endurance training, and you compare the muscle strength of the athlete with no resistance training with the sedentary person who also does no resistance training? And finally, do you take into account the exercise intensity of the elite endurance athlete, who (from the lectures I've attended, this is what they say, mind you) have trained at higher intensities to maintain motor neuron firing capacity, which should lead to a longer life of faster contracting muscle fibers, as opposed to the sedentary person that does nothing?
I'm always open to clarification... perhaps I have just confused the information out of the lectures, and I need a bit of emphasis. Could you go through this, and just dumb it down a little so that everyone can follow it too. Thanks! :)
Koffee
As Lance Armstrong is a good endurance rider (for example), are you stating that he is no stronger than others in his age group?
I may believe more inclined to believe this if an endurance rider does little or no strength training and spends most of their time doing aerobic activity, but Chris Carmichael does stress strength training in the off season for Lance, as well as weight training for muscle maintenance during the competitive season.
I think that if an endurance rider is trying to lift heavy for weight training to gain maximum muscle mass, there is definitely going to be compromising of endurance capabilities. An endurance rider does use weight training to strengthen muscles, but I don't think they use strength training to build massive muscles. All that extra weight would actually hinder them with speed, hills, etc.
I was under the impression that athletes are encouraged to use weight training to maintain muscle mass, and especially to prevent more of their Type II, or fast twitch, muscle fibers from converting as quickly to type I, or slow twitch), muscle fibers as a person ages, as well as to train the Type 1 muscle fibers to contract more quickly (of course, I am talking generally, since I do know there are different types of muscle fibers). While I do think that over time, endurance athletes' Type II muscle can covert from B to A, which can lead to a somewhat weakened response, they should still have more overall strength than the undtrained sedentary person of the same age group and gender.
This is what I believe Joe Signorile, who lectures and does research in exercise physiology and aging in Miami was telling us when I attended his last lecture. Dr. Len Kravitz, who is also does research solely for exercise physiology at New Mexico, also lectured as much when I saw him at his last lecture.
Are you assuming that the sedentary controls are doing the same strength training as the endurance athlete and the sedentary controls are not doing endurance, or do you assume that the endurance athlete does no resistance training, and only does endurance training, and you compare the muscle strength of the athlete with no resistance training with the sedentary person who also does no resistance training? And finally, do you take into account the exercise intensity of the elite endurance athlete, who (from the lectures I've attended, this is what they say, mind you) have trained at higher intensities to maintain motor neuron firing capacity, which should lead to a longer life of faster contracting muscle fibers, as opposed to the sedentary person that does nothing?
I'm always open to clarification... perhaps I have just confused the information out of the lectures, and I need a bit of emphasis. Could you go through this, and just dumb it down a little so that everyone can follow it too. Thanks! :)
Koffee
On average, elite pros are no stronger than age, gender and mass matched sedentary controls. it would be impossible to speculate on LA, as i've never tested him.
people tend to maintain muscle mass perfectly fine. there may be a possibility that some TdF riders don't due to extreme nature of the event. i'm assuming that no one here is riding the TdF.
There's two ways (actually, three, the third being a combination of the other two) to increase strength. 1) increase in muscle cross sectional area -- increases here will help increase peak power (i.e., 5-sec sprint power), this can also be increased with on the bike training. you then have more mass to lug uphill (= bad)
2) increase in strength through neuromuscular gains. these adaptations only occur at the specific joint angle and velocity at which they're trained. there's no cross over to another modality
people, in general, maintain their strength in to their 50's and 60's.
in general, untrained, sedentary, (healthy) people are as strong as elite cyclists.
as you increase your aerobic fitness, you increase aerobic machinery (e.g., mitochondria, capillary density) this replaces contractile proteins and thus your strength decreases.
the forces involved in elite cycling are very low, such that most people can meet them. for e.g., using first principles we can estimate that LA would have TTed ~ 430 W up Alpe d'Huez to win the TT. from that we can calculate that the average force on the pedals would have amounted to ~ 250 Newtons (~ 25 kg) between *both* legs. In other words, you'd be hard pressed to find a male (or even a female) of similar age (and who is healthy) who couldn't generate that force.
also, see http://www.cyclingnews.com/fitness/?id=strengthstern
ric
Do you make the assumption here that active people do not use weights and you are just comparing folks that use aerobic activity-type exercises (cycling only or running only) vs. athletes that actually use weights and weight bearing activities to increase muscle exercise?
I am not sure if we are both on the same page- I got the feeling you were saying using weights to increase muscle strength would not do anything for athletes involved in endurance based activities. I am saying that athletes involved in endurance based activities would be able to benefit from using weight training to increase strength. Additionally, plyometrics would be useful for these athletes for the times when they would need explosive power (ie- sprinting in the Tour de France at the end of a long stage).
I do think we are saying some of the same stuff- I think riders would lose muscle by the end of the Tour de France too- it is true that they would be primarily performing aerobic type activity just as you described. BUT during the off season, athletes would be working to increase muscle growth by emphasizing weight training, and this is where I am not sure we are talking about the same thing. I think if an endurance athlete is NOT doing weight training and is specifically only doing aerobic based activity, I could see your assertions. But if the endurance athlete is doing a specific weight training periodization program in the off season, and building up muscle, while at the same time, training the aerobic, then I can see how an athlete can have more muscle strength by the start of their season- but yes... I think their muscle strength will decline over the season, since the main emphasis of the season is not with weights, it's with aerobics. Therefore, muscle mass would be compromised in favor of aerobic activity.
I may be losing you here, but I'm always interested to hear what the professionals say.
For what it's worth, I will read your article, but unfortunately, I have to run out and meet up with one of my friend's idiot boyfriend and do a little business. If you could clarify some of what I said with what you know, then I will re read your response and the article you posted and ask any additional questions.
BTW, are you familiar with Joe Signorile? He has a number of articles he's written from his research with working with aging exercising populations. Being in Florida, he has a rather large population to choose from! ;) He is cool, though. Very intense, great lecturer, hard as hell to take tests with, but very cool. I enjoy listening to him lecture every time he's in town.
Koffee
i'm confused with your first paragraph... maybe because it's late here! not sure what you mean by active people... i've used the term sedentary and elite. perhaps you can clarify...
Oh sorry, Ric. Sedentary= couch potato. Elite= Lance Armstrong.
Koffee
Oh, also, let me try and break it down a little bit more. When you assume elite, are you saying that the elite people use only aerobic activity for exercise or that they are using weights and aerobic activity?
When you say sedentary, do you mean couch potato, don't exercise at all and/or less than 3 days per week of moderate to low intensity, or by sedentary, do you mean people who exercise at least moderately 5 days or more a week but aren't considered elite, professional athletes?
I think if you clarify a bit what your definitions are, then I can see where you're coming from.
Good stuff, Ric. I enjoy reading your comments.
Koffee
Oh, also, let me try and break it down a little bit more. When you assume elite, are you saying that the elite people use only aerobic activity for exercise or that they are using weights and aerobic activity?
When you say sedentary, do you mean couch potato, don't exercise at all and/or less than 3 days per week of moderate to low intensity, or by sedentary, do you mean people who exercise at least moderately 5 days or more a week but aren't considered elite, professional athletes?
I think if you clarify a bit what your definitions are, then I can see where you're coming from.
Good stuff, Ric. I enjoy reading your comments.
Koffee
sedentary means non (regularly) active people, but if i recall correctly (i don't have the research to hand) the elite category riders were mid racing season.
I don't understand why you think weights would be beneficial to endurance trained athletes? We know that elite cyclists on average are no stronger than sedentary controls, we know that the forces involved in elite cycling are low (such that virtually anyone can meet them), and we know that weight training either causes an increase in peak power (with an increase in mass = bad) or is neuromuscular and doesn't transfer.
Plyometrics doesn't seem to increase peak power (i.e., 5-sec sprint effort) except in track (velodrome) sprinters who can maybe devote a large amount of time to it.
I don't think everyone looses muscle at the end of the TdF. Saris et al., 89, showed that weight loss during the TdF was insignificant (from memory, something like < 1 kg).
If you attempt to train both (i.e., in the off-season) strength and aerobic performance, one or both of these will be compromised (i.e., you won't recover to do both properly). additionally, as cross sectional area increases (i.e., hypertrophy) there will be a relative decrease in mitochondrial and capillary density, which will result in a decrease in performance.
ric
Strength training properly can help you develop lean muscle mass thus increasing power, while helping you cut excess fat. You just have to do things right. Strength training can also help you avoid injury. Joint/muscle specific excercises help reduce the rate of injury, or help you recover from a sustained injury like an ACL tear. When used correctly in conjunction, weight training first then cardio, can help you burn more calories translating into more lost weight if you are following a meal plan. Strength training doesn't always encompass gaining massive muscles the football player way. It encompasses weight lifting of all types including women's toning exercises.
Strength training properly can help you develop lean muscle mass thus increasing power,
only increases in peak power output (i.e., 5-sec sprint efforts)
You just have to do things right. Strength training can also help you avoid injury.
i've been coaching professionally since 98, and from 90 voluntarily. i've yet to meet a cyclists who has such an injury that strength training would have prevented. the only injuries i see in cyclists are from crashes etc.
When used correctly in conjunction, weight training first then cardio, can help you burn more calories translating into more lost weight if you are following a meal plan.
alternatively, you'd expend way more energy by cycling for longer and replacing your weight training time with cycling.
Strength training doesn't always encompass gaining massive muscles the football player way. It encompasses weight lifting of all types including women's toning exercises.
if there's no increase in muscle cross sectional area then no transfer to other modalities take place, except in low-fitness groups, in which case *any* exercise is good exercise.
ric
I wonder what lance armstrong can squat
Ric, I haven't been a coach so I really don't know a ton of stuff about the impact of weight training on cycling. I just know that a friend of mine had knee problems, and actually injured himself riding a bike. When it came time to rehab it, he had to get into the weightroom and specifically spot train that knee to strengthen it. Of course his riding position was probably to blame, but he hurt his knee nonetheless. With the weight training helping to burn calories I wasn't talking about a person who spends hours in the saddle, I was talking about a normal person who may only ride 20-30 miles a clip. Some people don't have the time to cycle a ton more. A 30 minute weight session followed by a 20-30 minute cardio session can be quite adequate. I played football for four years, and developed quite the football player's body. 185 lbs on a 5'8" frame could be quite detrimental to a bicyclist, but I have yet to experience major problems. I still climb well, and average 23 m/h with climbs and flats, not just flats. It is my belief that weight training did absolutely nothing to harm me. It may have even helped me with muscle endurance and power output. I know that I'm not the "ideal" cyclist, but who of us truly are?
I wasn't talking about a person who spends hours in the saddle, I was talking about a normal person who may only ride 20-30 miles a clip.
??????
A "normal person?"
20-30 miles?
I will tell my neighbors to get with it so they can be "normal"! :D
Ok, maybe not "normal," but more normal than a pro-type rider.
Ok, maybe not "normal," but more normal than a pro-type rider.
Yeah - we all know how unnormal pro-type riders are!
I'm not a person that has 6 hours a day to spend in the saddle. I'm sure most of us aren't. I think I said "normal" because I bike 20-35 miles a day at least 5 days a week.
I'm not a person that has 6 hours a day to spend in the saddle. I'm sure most of us aren't. I think I said "normal" because I bike 20-35 miles a day at least 5 days a week.
Sorry, just kidding around a bit. This is definitely a sign I need a quick ride. Bye, as I head out the door!
Again, I have to disagree with Ric Stern.
Everyone I know who has begun weight training in the winter has made big gains in the season following. They didn't lift for mass, they used very low weights and very high reps - but it helped in every case I know of. One friend in particular, a female professional mountain bike racer, began lifting a few years ago in the winters and promptly began posting her best results, after she turned 40. She has been a coach for about 10 years and now insists all her clients lift.
Placebo effect? Good for only certain athletes? Quite possibly either one. But that doesn't matter if results follow. I haven't lifted since before I started cycling (it bores me), but I am planning to this winter. I'll let you know if I see any improvement from it.
I am fairly new to this board, so I don't know Ric. I just know what's worked for me and those around me. The guys that I have biked with have all improved with weight lifting. We may have lifted for pure football strength, but that helped us become better overall athletes. I started lifting for more lean muscle mass lately, and I have seen some good results. Instead of a usual 10 minute lag in my 23 mile course when there was high wind, I've dropped it to around 5. Lean muscle is what endurance athletes thrive off of. There is a difference between lean muscle and plain bulk. Just like there's a difference between fast twitch and slow twitch muscle fibers for all you sprinters and distance runners. Lean muscle makes you a more efficient fat burner as well as allowing you to have high output for longer periods of time. Most coaches and trainers I have talked to believe that strength training is good for all athletes, and they can tailor different programs for different sports. Good example, an NCAA Division 1 cross country runner came out of this area this year. The college coaches told him that he'd be leaps and bounds better if he got into the weightroom on a runner-specific weight program. Even a long, lean, experienced, state winning runner needs a weight program that won't put on bulk, but strengthens his core and legs. Oh yeah, dnvrfox I kind of knew you were kidding, but in case you weren't I waranted my answer :).
I have been out all day, so I wasn't able to address the question, but I will do some supporting research to what the majority of us here are saying. Doing a cursory check of my materials so far, every coach and researcher says weight training done by athletes DOES contribute to increased performance. I am a coach, and I am working towards my USA Cycling license for coaching, but until then, I still have my fitness certifications, and I've attended conventions where very respected researchers and lecturers have all said the same thing- weight train and do cardio for maximum performance.
Since I know Ric does like to see the research and supporting paperwork, I will go through my materials tomorrow and post those, along with names of the people I received my information from. I do believe that Ric is from the Westernized old school-from the days when people just said ride, ride, ride. Nowadays, and especially because of research done lately, the seminars all emphasize a strong periodized program, incorporating weight training and cardiovascular activity to increase performance, whether recreational or elite. We've seen the example here- look at the Lance Chronicles, and in the episode where Lance takes us through his house, he talks about weight training, and he emphasizes that he has every major strength training equipment in his weight training room, and he and Chris Carmichael were talking about how the team comes in and does their weight training in the off season.
It's late, and I need to get to bed. Ric may be a powerhouse that can stay up late, but me... I'm a weakling, and I need my beauty sleep! :)
Koffee
I have been out all day, so I wasn't able to address the question, but I will do some supporting research to what the majority of us here are saying. Doing a cursory check of my materials so far, every coach and researcher says weight training done by athletes DOES contribute to increased performance. I am a coach, and I am working towards my USA Cycling license for coaching, but until then, I still have my fitness certifications, and I've attended conventions where very respected researchers and lecturers have all said the same thing- weight train and do cardio for maximum performance.
you're correct, most coaches do advocate weight training. As regards researchers you will find hardly any advocate weights for cycling.
Since I know Ric does like to see the research and supporting paperwork, I will go through my materials tomorrow and post those, along with names of the people I received my information from.
you're correct, i do like to see either research to back up something or to make sure that something fits first principles. in the case of weight training neither research or first principles show that weight training is warranted in increasing performance in *trained* endurance cyclists (i.e., races > ~ 90-secs).
I do believe that Ric is from the Westernized old school-from the days when people just said ride, ride, ride.
damn, that makes me sound old!!! To qualify my position i have a first class hons degree in Sports Science, i'm a Level 3 coach, i coach and consult cyclists at TT1 (that's TdF level) to recreational level, i have peer reviewed research in the Canadian j Appl Phys, have other articles in press (post grad research), am Fitness Contributor at www.cyclingnews.com and am a leading expert in the development of training and coaching with power output. Additionally, i have been coaching professionally since '98 as my only job
Furthermore, i am currently authoring a paper on weight/strength training and cycling performance.
Historically, people have been saying that weights should be used as adjunct to endurance cycling performance (ECP), since the 1900s. It's my belief that people have thought this, because they can feel strength limited when climbing a hill. However, empirical data and actual observation from power meters shows this to be completely untrue.
Nowadays, and especially because of research done lately, the seminars all emphasize a strong periodized program, incorporating weight training and cardiovascular activity to increase performance, whether recreational or elite.
there is NO research showing an increase in performance in trained cyclists with weights. I repeat, absolutely none. In fact the research on trained cyclists with weights show no imporvements or a decrease in performance.
in fact even the studies that have been designed to try to show an increase in performance from weights hasn't shown an increase.
We've seen the example here- look at the Lance Chronicles, and in the episode where Lance takes us through his house, he talks about weight training, and he emphasizes that he has every major strength training equipment in his weight training room, and he and Chris Carmichael were talking about how the team comes in and does their weight training in the off season.
if you look at certain coaches position stands, they have changed over the last couple of years based on the work i and my colleague have been doing.
Ric
Ric we all like to be right. Especially when we feel deep down that we are right. However, the parameters you keep talking about are for higher level riders. Those who are just beginning, or go on "fun rides" of a few miles could benefit from a weight program. I do know that as stated before a successful long-distance runner from my area was told he needed to be on a weight training program. It wasn't meant to put on bulk as that would not be beneficial, but he was told to do exercises to put on lean muscle mass. It would make him a stronger runner, and allow him to rely on his pure running ability more in the later stages of the race if things were close. Instead of having to try to gut it out, he could lean on the fact that he had strengthened his legs and can put more into the finishing sprint if he needs to. Unfortunuately, those who concentrate on a single sport such as cycling or running don't ever think they need a weight program. I'm not saying everyone should be on a weight program, I just think that it works for some people. I know it worked for me, and I know it worked for some of my friends. That is all I know for sure. I don't know what it will do for a complete stranger 100 miles away. I just don't think you can completely write off something like this initially. If things don't work out it's not like you can't quit. People quit things all the time. I just don't think things should be eliminated as training options just because a certain number of people responded negatively to it. Because everyone is built differently, different things work for different people. I am not advocating strength training for everyone in every sport. I am saying that some people who feel compelled to lift might want to try it to see how it helps them. If they feel more confident by strengthening their leg muscles and adding lean muscle to them, it may be a psychological advantage more than anything. Yet, it is still an advantage they have. They will be less prone to doubt themselves, and maybe push harder because they just "know" they can.
Since I don't exactly have the stuff in front of me, I just consulted a friend of mine that works with folks of the Chris Carmichael standard. I shot off a letter, summarized both sides, gave the researchers and the names of the authorities I've based my opinions on, and summarized Ric Stern's information so he has an idea of what Ric believes. When I get a response, I'll post it. I still have been a bit too busy to pull out the stuff I've been talking about- just been out all day, teaching my cycling classes, and working, but at some point, I'll get my stuff together too.
Koffee
Since I don't exactly have the stuff in front of me, I just consulted a friend of mine that works with folks of the Chris Carmichael standard. I shot off a letter, summarized both sides, gave the researchers and the names of the authorities I've based my opinions on, and summarized Ric Stern's information so he has an idea of what Ric believes. When I get a response, I'll post it. I still have been a bit too busy to pull out the stuff I've been talking about- just been out all day, teaching my cycling classes, and working, but at some point, I'll get my stuff together too.
Koffee
i don't understand who you've written too? someone who works for CTS, or someone who is the standard of CC?
ric
Ric we all like to be right. Especially when we feel deep down that we are right. However, the parameters you keep talking about are for higher level riders.
i said that there'd be no benefit to trained riders, you're correct.
Those who are just beginning, or go on "fun rides" of a few miles could benefit from a weight program.
i said that weights would help these people -- i also stated that *any* exercise would be just as beneficial
additionally, and most importantly, these groups of people are often very time limited (e.g., with work/family/school/etc.) and by taking time away from cycling (and doing another exercise) there will be less cycling improvement. in other words, if you're time limited then really concentrate on riding your bike (of course, that's if you want to get better at riding a bike, if on the other hand you're just interested in being generally fit, then continue to do various different exercise modalities).
I do know that as stated before a successful long-distance runner from my area was told he needed to be on a weight training program. It wasn't meant to put on bulk as that would not be beneficial, but he was told to do exercises to put on lean muscle mass. It would make him a stronger runner, and allow him to rely on his pure running ability more in the later stages of the race if things were close. Instead of having to try to gut it out, he could lean on the fact that he had strengthened his legs and can put more into the finishing sprint if he needs to.
as far as i'm aware, we're talking about cycling. mechaisms for adaptations are different between the two modalities, such that weights may well help running in trained runners but not because it makes them stronger.
Unfortunuately, those who concentrate on a single sport such as cycling or running don't ever think they need a weight program.
for cycling they don't (to become a better cyclist)
I'm not saying everyone should be on a weight program, I just think that it works for some people. I know it worked for me, and I know it worked for some of my friends. That is all I know for sure. I don't know what it will do for a complete stranger 100 miles away. I just don't think you can completely write off something like this initially. If things don't work out it's not like you can't quit. People quit things all the time.
why bother doing it in the first place? i had a friend that would hit his legs the day before a race with a frying pan, he was convinced it improved his performance. why not do that? i don't think you can write that off, he always did well.
I just don't think things should be eliminated as training options just because a certain number of people responded negatively to it.
to me this infers that you mean only a minority of people responded negatively, when in fact it's every study that's used trained cyclists. we already know that in low fitness groups any exercise is able to cause an aerobic adaptation
Because everyone is built differently, different things work for different people. I am not advocating strength training for everyone in every sport. I am saying that some people who feel compelled to lift might want to try it to see how it helps them. If they feel more confident by strengthening their leg muscles and adding lean muscle to them, it may be a psychological advantage more than anything. Yet, it is still an advantage they have. They will be less prone to doubt themselves, and maybe push harder because they just "know" they can.
on the other hand, why should i not present the facts as they are, so that people can make an informed decision as to whether or not they should bother in the first place, and waste their time?
ric
i don't understand who you've written too? someone who works for CTS, or someone who is the standard of CC?
ric
Someone who is the standard of CC. But he also knows CC, so maybe he'll consult him too. I guess it'll depend on how much time he has to spare! Besides that, I wrote quite a long email to him, since I promised him I would tell him about my cycling trip, plus give him the latest gossip and stuff! :D I'll give him a week.
Regardless, I still understand your premise, but I don't agree, Ric. I also know you said the coaches are changing their training styles based on the research you and yours are doing, but I haven't seen any mention of your research, including with USA Cycling, and they certify every cycling coach in the USA. USA Cycling sides with Joe Friel and Tudor O. Bompa, both of whom advocate using periodized training programs that incorporate strength training as well as cardiovascular training for all cyclists. Now, since we know there are different kinds of races, (ie track vs. tours), there is a specific method advocated to train athletes, and that includes the type and duration of strength training, but nonetheless, strength training is still emphasized.
Either it is, or I'm on crack and reading it all wrong. I'll let you know. :D I have to admit, though, I did not attend any lectures this year. Maybe things have changed, but as I sit here perusing through the materials sent to me by USA Cycling, there is nothing here to indicate that what Ric says is followed by this certifying body.
Koffee
I have absolutely no professional training as a coach or trainer and have never even read any of Chris Carmichael’s training articles. Obviously he is an authority on cycling training for competition, but I just don’t have the time to read those wordy articles!
That being said, at this point in my cycling life, at age 47 I can say that I feel weight training has helped me to be a better cyclist. For the last 3 years I have been on a ‘comeback’ after racing and training heavily from 1987 to 1995, then sort-of falling off the wagon while coaching a zillion rec-league team sports with my kids. In the ‘falling off’ period I rode my bike now and then and gained almost 30 lbs.
A big part of the ‘comeback’ effort is weight training in the months of December through February with indoor trainer efforts and outdoor riding (weather permitting) mixed in.
All I can say is at 6’4” tall and 200 lbs, I am within 5 lbs of my racing weight of 1991 and almost as fast. I ride slightly smaller gears on long climbs now and pack a 39/25 which would have gotten me laughed at back in the day…
I think the weight training helps with power and if nothing else, gives one something to do at the gym when you cant’ ride!
I wieght train 3 days a week been doing it 5 years now and riding 2. I work out 3 days a week I work my Chest and tris one day, back and bis next than legs on the third day. The only thing that changes in my routine is legs. I do only 3 sets of six reps Squats with calf raises, strait leg deads, pull throughs. I do abs this day as well wieghted side bends [ heavy] hanging leg lifts with wieght between my knees.
Ric, you said that any excercise would be beneficial for sedentary people. My friend who only does short rides of the 5-10 mile variety also runs and lifts. The lifting has benefited his cycling as well as the running. The lifting gave him the extra strength in the legs to complete accelerations uphill, and the running helped trim him down and improve his endurance. Ric, I am tired of simply arguing. You have your respectable opinion and I have mine. I am not a professional coach, but I don't think I would want a coach that isn't willing to explore other areas of opportunity than simply his own. I do know that I log over 120 miles on my bike weekly, and I lift at least 4 days a week. That includes box squats, squats, straight leg deadlifts, and the like. As for the arguing, it's over. I dislike the squabling over two different opinions simply because they find eachother unacceptable. How about this? You respect my opinion, and I conversely respect yours?
Regardless, I still understand your premise, but I don't agree, Ric. I also know you said the coaches are changing their training styles based on the research you and yours are doing, but I haven't seen any mention of your research
Koffee
Do a Pub-Med search the evidence is there for all to see, i.e., no evidence for improved performance in trained endurance (as opposed to track sprint) cyclists, improvements with weights or any exercise in non trained cyclists.
alternatively, read this thread, http://www.cyclingforums.com/t126133.html or similar ones on that forum. there's even a Carmichael coach there (on one of the threads) although he isn't able to demonstrate or provide evidence that weights are beneficial in trained cyclists.
ric
Ric, you said that any excercise would be beneficial for sedentary people. My friend who only does short rides of the 5-10 mile variety also runs and lifts.
i said untrained, which this rider fits into.
The lifting has benefited his cycling as well as the running. The lifting gave him the extra strength in the legs to complete accelerations uphill, and the running helped trim him down and improve his endurance.
i'd be upset if it hadn't. it should have.
Ric, I am tired of simply arguing.
who is arguing, which to me infers raised voices and anger. i'm simply discussing and dissemenating the facts?
You have your respectable opinion and I have mine. I am not a professional coach, but I don't think I would want a coach that isn't willing to explore other areas of opportunity than simply his own.
who says i don't explore areas, i use weight training with certain riders?
ric
We've got a couple of guys down here who are ex body builder types, one guy we call the incredible hulk. He's not much of a threat in a road race, but when he comes out of that last corner in a crit, he can sprint like a demon. Maybe weight training doesn't help for efforts more than 90 seconds, but many a race is won and lost in the last 90 seconds.
Sprints, acclerations out of corners, small hills on a circuit race, are all efforts less than 90 seconds, but all make a difference in the outcome of a race.
Keep up the weight work, work you core too, abs and back etc. Just not with a lot of weight. Stretch, Be an athlete first, then a cyclist. It's healthier.
We've got a couple of guys down here who are ex body builder types, one guy we call the incredible hulk. He's not much of a threat in a road race, but when he comes out of that last corner in a crit, he can sprint like a demon. Maybe weight training doesn't help for efforts more than 90 seconds, but many a race is won and lost in the last 90 seconds.
Sprints, acclerations out of corners, small hills on a circuit race, are all efforts less than 90 seconds, but all make a difference in the outcome of a race.
although these may all be less than 90-secs, recovery from any of them is entirely and totally dependent on aerobic metabolism. in other words, all you have to do is go hard enough during these efforts, and then instead of easing up you continue to make it slightly longer effort, or another hill or corner or whatever comes up and someone who doesn't have an equal or better aerobic system will get shelled
ric
oh, i guess all my strength training will be useless :(
Your training in squats, deadlifts and leg extensions will be very helpful in the off season (if you take one). When I'm on the last portion of a good ride there is something that weight training gives you that other training does not.....discipline to reach way down inside and keep going. Squatting moderate to light-heavy weights will help with this. Do you recall Eric Heiden of the winter olympic speed skating team (usa) a few years back? His legs were huuuuuge. Biking and squatting.
When you go into a steep incline you'll have what it takes to keep going because you dug down into the pain zone with those leg extensions.
Weight training has it's place for the ordinary individual that likes to do something in the winter that will carry over into summer biking fun.
(As a 181 in powerlifting, age 39 I could squat 525-535lbs in competition, do triples with 475....these are "real" squats that go below parallel)
Olds
although these may all be less than 90-secs, recovery from any of them is entirely and totally dependent on aerobic metabolism. in other words, all you have to do is go hard enough during these efforts, and then instead of easing up you continue to make it slightly longer effort, or another hill or corner or whatever comes up and someone who doesn't have an equal or better aerobic system will get shelled
ric
Thats true, but if you have 2 athletes, with equal aerobic systems, and one has more peak power, the more powerful rider can go faster when it matters most no? Are there any studies which would show a reduction in aerobic capability due to weight training?
Thats true, but if you have 2 athletes, with equal aerobic systems, and one has more peak power, the more powerful rider can go faster when it matters most no? Are there any studies which would show a reduction in aerobic capability due to weight training?
weights *will* increase peak power (that's 5-sec all-out efforts), however, it will be at the expense of your aerobic system. additionally, for endurance riders (i.e., not 200-m, 500-m, 1-km, olympic sprint, etc on the track) peak power can be equally and possibly better trained via riding (i.e., doing sprint training).
as you increase muscle mass - hypertrophy (increased muscle cross sectional area) which occurs from weight training and provides a true increase in strength (as opposed to neuromuscular adaptations), there will be a decrease in muscle capillary density and muscle mitochondrial density, which will both mean a decrease in aerobic and anaerobic performance. you will also have more weight to lug uphill with no corresponding increase in power, and this will make you slower all-round
ric
I shot off a letter, summarized both sides, gave the researchers and the names of the authorities I've based my opinions on, and summarized Ric Stern's information so he has an idea of what Ric believes. When I get a response, I'll post it.
Koffee
Any response yet? I find this discussion very interesting.
Personally, I've been cycling ~3000 miles a year since ’89 and weight training over the winter for 10 years or so. We have a 4 year old daughter, so my exercise time has been limited lately. I do some racing, but prefer our fast club rides to driving 2-4 hours to race for 1-2 hours.
Last year, I minimized my aerobic work in favor of weight training and plyometrics. My thought, with limited time, was to increase strength over the winter and work on endurance/aerobic conditioning out on the road when it was more enjoyable.
On our club rides, I can get up short hills near the front, but repetitive or long hills at high effort seem to kill me every time. All power leaves my muscles and it takes several minutes to recover.
One of my best years recently was when I took a “performance” spinning class over the winter with my wife. Certainly, there are many factors to consider, but this discussion is leading me back to focus on aerobic conditioning over the winter.
Anyway, keep the comments coming, I might just learn something!
-murray
wheeeeeeeeeew...what a thread!
I'm beat!
"as you increase muscle mass - hypertrophy (increased muscle cross sectional area) which occurs from weight training and provides a true increase in strength (as opposed to neuromuscular adaptations), there will be a decrease in muscle capillary density and muscle mitochondrial density, which will both mean a decrease in aerobic and anaerobic performance. you will also have more weight to lug uphill with no corresponding increase in power, and this will make you slower all-round"
Rick,
Ive been following thes thread quite closley and so far its pretty interesting. How Quantifiable are the differences?? can somone give a percentage? a time difference? or some other real world value?
Another thing is you refer to " a trained rider" at what point is a rider considered trained as opposed to untrained?? again is this able to measured in the real world or is it based on somones oppinion
These arent having a go at you, or anyone else, however i just see them as being important to understand where you and others are comming from.
"as you increase muscle mass - hypertrophy (increased muscle cross sectional area) which occurs from weight training and provides a true increase in strength (as opposed to neuromuscular adaptations), there will be a decrease in muscle capillary density and muscle mitochondrial density, which will both mean a decrease in aerobic and anaerobic performance. you will also have more weight to lug uphill with no corresponding increase in power, and this will make you slower all-round"
Rick,
Ive been following thes thread quite closley and so far its pretty interesting. How Quantifiable are the differences?? can somone give a percentage? a time difference? or some other real world value?
you can't give differences here because it will differ for different ability levels, and different terrain
Another thing is you refer to " a trained rider" at what point is a rider considered trained as opposed to untrained?? again is this able to measured in the real world or is it based on somones oppinion
within the reseacrh "trained" does vary a little, but generally refers to at least a low level of racing or similar ability, i.e., 4th category (or if you don't race -- you'd be trained if you could keep up with 4th cats).
of course though, if you race track sprint (e.g., 200-m, 500-m TT, 1-km TT, etc) then weights are good for you
ric
I still can't help but think that weight training has helped me at least a bit. If you lift for sheer weight, then you're right your endurance will go down. I know guys that can bench press 280 lbs, but they can't do 180 8 times. I think if you do high reps your muscle endurance will benefit in at least a small way. I can do upwards of 20 repetitions of 325 lbs doing full squats. This has become a lighter weight to me. I just think that it is necessary for me to be stronger because I weigh about 180. At 5-6% body fat, there isn't a lot of room to lose weight. Despite my weight, I have no trouble completing long climbs at a decent speed. I do a 2.5 mile climb at 6-9% gradients along the way, never shift out of the big chainring up front, and never let my cadence drop below 80. I don't think I'd be able to do this if i had never lifted a weight. I would probably only weigh about 145 lbs like I did my freshman year, but who's to know how good of a cyclist I would have been? And who's to know if I would have stayed that small I may have naturally developed bigger. I just think that weight lifting has benefited me. That's all.
I think if you do high reps your muscle endurance will benefit in at least a small way.
only your "endurance" at weight training
I can do upwards of 20 repetitions of 325 lbs doing full squats. This has become a lighter weight to me. I just think that it is necessary for me to be stronger because I weigh about 180. At 5-6% body fat, there isn't a lot of room to lose weight. Despite my weight, I have no trouble completing long climbs at a decent speed. I do a 2.5 mile climb at 6-9% gradients along the way, never shift out of the big chainring up front, and never let my cadence drop below 80. I don't think I'd be able to do this if i had never lifted a weight.
this has nothing whatsoever, to do with strength - which is the maximal force or tension a muscle or group of muscles can generate - and everything to do with aerobic power
ric
Do a Pub-Med search the evidence is there for all to see, i.e., no evidence for improved performance in trained endurance (as opposed to track sprint) cyclists, improvements with weights or any exercise in non trained cyclists.
ric
Ric, I did the Pub-Med search, and when I inserted your name, there were no hits at all. Any other places to look?
No comprehensive explanation from my friend as of yet. Unfortunately, he just moved and between the traveling he does for his company and the people he trains, and moving, he said he wouldn't be around much online unless he's in a place where he could steal time on a computer. We will see each other at Interbike though.
I did speak to Robbie Ventura, and he said that the US Postal DOES weight train- all of them. They weight train in the off season, but when they start the training rides, the weight training part of their program ends, and they focus primarily on the riding aspect. What they do for weights and how much weight they use depends on what they specialize in (hill climbing, sprinting, long distance tours). He looked at me crazy at the idea that there's no weight training involved.
Koffee
Ric, I did the Pub-Med search, and when I inserted your name, there were no hits at all. Any other places to look?
maybe i worded it bad... when i said check pub-med for evidence i didn't mean for my work (that's obviously going to say what i've been saying here, i am, afterall, hardly likely to contradict myself!). what i meant was check pub-med for the evidence of weights and endurance performance, and you won't find an increase in performance with trained cyclists.
I did speak to Robbie Ventura, and he said that the US Postal DOES weight train- all of them. They weight train in the off season, but when they start the training rides, the weight training part of their program ends, and they focus primarily on the riding aspect. What they do for weights and how much weight they use depends on what they specialize in (hill climbing, sprinting, long distance tours). He looked at me crazy at the idea that there's no weight training involved.
Koffee
lots of TT1 riders don't weight train. the point i was making is that weights don't increase performance (in trained endurance cyclists), aren't likely too, and there'd be no real reason to think they would (excluding in some instances of injured riders).
pros (and amateurs) do all sorts of things, good, bad, and downright stupid. it doesn't mean you should copy them!
ric
You know at first I didn't see Ric's side of this at all but I do think he makes some very good points with the key one being you are already strong enough ya just need to last longer.
Lifting light weights to get strong is like riding slow to get faster. Inefficient.
I have used a power lifting program, developed by the worlds strongest drug free man.
You use a real slow warm up, and then do six sets of four reps with about 80 % of your max lift.
Caution squats can destroy you. Very quickly. The spotters lift the weight off you after you have been injured.
Do leg presses. Muscles do not slow you down, they move you. The give you all of your motion. Gravity will not stand you back up.
Do two months of weight work in the off season, and you will be stronger and faster. Eat a little more protien, and, if you are very lucky, you may gain a pound in each leg. Get a PT, and let them show you the correct way.
The strength leaves about the same speed as it comes. That is why NFL teams lift all season. If not, the players will be at their weakest at the most important time.
You will never have tree trunk legs.
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