Touring - Which would you choose Miyata 1000 or LHT?

Forgive my newbie question, but assuming the cost was going to be maybe $700-800 for a near mint condition Miyata 1000 or $200-300 more for a brand new Surly LHT; which would you choose? Both bikes are my size. I got back into biking over the summer and have been riding 35-45 miles/week near home, but I have dreams of someday taking off on a road trip. My other reason for the touring bike is that being on the Clydish side I appeciate the added durability and stability.

Thanks in advance for your opinions.

LHT has more robust frame, ability to wear bigger tires, 1 1/8" ahead stem is a lot more convenient and lower cost for stem changes without having to unwrap/rewrap bar tape and remove brake hoods compared to older 1" quill stem. The 40spoke rear wheel is attractive and strong but if it goes you're looking at a new wheel or rebuild with retail cost 40spoke rim and I"m guessing the rear dropout width is 126mm where most of your replacement wheels will be 135mm for the LHT.

The Miyata and other bikes like it of that era are good but you're paying a 2009 wholesale price for a twenty year old bike(you don't mention it's age). The $700-$800 price for the Miyata is based on someone willing to pay for it, not a relative value to present bikes. I'd consider it if it was $500 but the LHT is an improvement over regular diameter road tubing used in 80's production touring bikes, especially for heavy people and heavy loads.

As mentioned, the LHT has better options and all the bells and whistles one might need for touring including great components for the dollar. That said I would LOVE a Miyata 1000, however, I really love my LHT and would take it over the Miyata any day.

I've got a Kona Ute and the LHT is a better hauler. Theoretically I could put more total weight on the Ute but the LHT is a better ride and has much better control for carrying four heavily loaded panniers. It kind of gets me every time I take the Ute out that it's handling is that bad for all loads.

Thanks for the advice, I can definitely see the advantages of a new bike over one that's 25 years old, I just wasn't sure about the quality of the new vs. older frames. Sounds like the newer is also better.

It's like the hardest choice in the universe. I'm very fond of the Miyata brand.
Surleys have a great rep. and like the 1000s are favored by many tourers. Two very different bikes. Your weight doesn't weigh in. A choice between Old and New.
From a collectors standpoint the 1000 carries alot of weight but I'm hard-pressed to state that it's "better". I suppose that the Surley has more modern parts, the wheels on the 1000s are tough and tough to beat. Something to be said for style.

7 to 8 is a full price for the 1000 ; the price you've indicated on the Surley is a solid deal as far as quality, no frills tourers go. If the 1000 is, in fact very clean and truly has "few" miles the choice would be more clear. Some are of the mind that a non-abused, well used bike in good shape with 40,000 miles is near mint, I'd disagree. I would need to be convinced that less than 10,000 are on it.

Perhaps the "extra" for the Miyata is worth it, they don't jump-up every day.
A friend of mine doesn't care about anything other than his bike being a tool.
I take a more esthetic approach. He's the better cyclist by far.

Thanks for the advice, I can definitely see the advantages of a new bike over one that's 25 years old, I just wasn't sure about the quality of the new vs. older frames. Sounds like the newer is also better.

Despite my Tastes.... YES they are

Thanks for the advice, I can definitely see the advantages of a new bike over one that's 25 years old, I just wasn't sure about the quality of the new vs. older frames. Sounds like the newer is also better.

The newer is better for heavier person, the quality is the same, who knows the quality of the Miyata frame may be better but there's enough changes since then that I'd rather have the more solid LHT if I was bombing down a mtn at 30mph with a loaded bike. If you were a collector it's pricey, if you wanted the best bike for heavy use the LHT is a better package with a warranty.

the LHT is an improvement over regular diameter road tubing used in 80's production touring bikes, especially for heavy people and heavy loads.

That statement may be true - but not in the context of the OP's question because the 1000 was no ordinary production tourer. The double butted triangle and straight gauge fork and stays of the LHT are no where near the sophistication of the late 80's/early 90's splined, triple butted frameset.

As a comparison, consider that in 1991, the retail value of a new Miyata 1000 was ~$950. That was with bar end shifters, 700C wheels, 7sp and Shimano 600 and Deore DX components.

but does that sophistication result in a better handling load carrier for a heavy person? I really haven't A/B ridden a Miyata and an LHT so I'm doing a lot of guessing and defer to those with direct experience of that bike. I'd be curious to A/B test a LHT and a Cannondale touring bike.

No contest,1000 wins hands down.That frame would cost more than 2 complete LHT to build these days.

We can hash this over in 30 years and well see how many LHT's are left in service.By then the 1000 will be 60 years old and still going strong.

Definitely the Miyata is the better choice. Besides that the 1000 is a much better looking bike, it's geometry is much better for touring in my size. It's also hard to beat the ride quality of a Miyata, even my low end 90 is a smooth ride.

Depends on the condition of the Miyata and its components. If I were just buying a frame, I would choose the Miyata hands down over the Surly if the price was right and paint in good condition. I still might choose the Miyata even if it needed repainting, if the price was low enough.

However, if I was buying a complete bike and the Miyata had 27-inch wheels, 6 or 7-speed derailleurs, and other out-dated equipment, I would have to think twice unless the price was right and I could sell the components.

BTW, if you are not in a big hurry, you can buy a Bob Jackson World Tour frame for about $700 ordering direct from England. The BJs are lugged frames designed for touring, and available in just about any color/decal combination. I got mine last winter for about $600 when the exchange rate was better.

come on guys, sure the Miyata is prettier and has more labor in its construction and probably rides better unladen but are the 25yr old wheels really better than Surlys stock wheels? Are the Ukai/Araya rims better than the Alex Adventurers or at least can you be assured they're as good as new? If you were on the "Clydish side" would you go for warranty and new or best of 20yrs ago for your only bike?

However, if I was buying a complete bike and the Miyata had 27-inch wheels, 6 or 7-speed derailleurs, and other out-dated equipment, I would have to think twice unless the price was right and I could sell the components.

+1

I love old bikes. I own a Univega Gran Turismo (made by Miyata) now, for commuting; and back in the day I owned a Univega Specialissima (also made by Miyata, practically the same frame as the Miyata 1000). I have not owned a Surly LHT but have test ridden one a couple of times.

Two things:
1. I do not think you will find the Miyata frame to be as stiff as the Surly LHT. My Specialissima was pretty noodly when fully loaded, and was a handful on fast mountain descents. I still loved the bike, but riding it fully loaded in the mountains was not for the faint of heart.

2. You really need to take into account the cost of getting the Miyata into tour-ready condition. It can be fine for riding around town, but if you are taking it on tour you would really want to make sure that all of the equipment on the bike was fresh and maintained. And you would really want to make sure that you were comfortable deal with possibly outmoded equpiment.

I've bought a number of used bikes, and I also make sure that I figure the cost of the bike PLUS all required updating/maintenance should still be considerably less than the price of a new bike. The problem with the Miyata 1000 is that it's so highly regarded that by time you buy one plus do the required updating for a tour you likely have spent as much as the price of a Surly LHT. If you're comfortable that the Miyata, with all tour-ready equipment, might cost you eventually as much or more than a Surly LHT, then go ahead. It's fun having the satisfaction of bringing an old bike back to fighting shape.

As a collector's item, the Miyata is great; just make sure you know the complete cost of getting it ready to tour.

On the other hand, you can purchase old Univega, Fuji Touring, or other vintage Japanese touring bikes for $100 to $300 all the time if you're careful. Get a $100 vintage bike, spend $300 to $600 on upgrades, and you've got a pretty great touring bike, still with a savings over new.

I have a 1985 Miyata 1000, which I bought new. It's a great bike. But after 24 years, it's a bit temperamental, and replacing parts is expensive. This year I spent $400 replacing worn out components. I did this last in 2001, and before that, in 1998.

If I had to choose between buying a 25 year old Miyata 1000 and a modern bicycle, I would probably opt for the newer bicycle. Several years ago I bought a new touring bike. Most days, I choose to ride my new bike because it fits me better, and has components I like that my old bicycle cannot accommodate.

No contest,1000 wins hands down.That frame would cost more than 2 complete LHT to build these days.

We can hash this over in 30 years and well see how many LHT's are left in service.By then the 1000 will be 60 years old and still going strong.

+1, Having ridden an LHT and comparing it to my Miyata 1000 there is just no contest. The Miyata 1000 was, is, and will continue to be twice the bike regardless of age. The LHT is a bargain in todays market but buying a bike equal to the 1000 these days would cost 3 times as much.
I don't buy into the new is better theory and have yet to ride a new touring bike that compares to the 1000, Expedition or Trek 720. Your mileage will vary.

if what you want is how the miyata is configured today, take it hands down over the surly. better craftsmanship and frame materials (lugs!)

but, you said you are on the clyde side. do you want larger tires (32+) and fenders? if so, you may be pushing the limits of the miyata 1000.

i have a 63cm 1982 1000 that originally had 27" wheels. i converted to 700c, but the rear triangle has very little clearance for 32mm tires and fenders. it works, but getting the wheels on and off is slightly tricky. also, your choices for front derailleur are limited to road and not mountain because there isn't enough clearance (at least for me) without cutting the fender.

but, you said you are on the clyde side. do you want larger tires (32+) and fenders? if so, you may be pushing the limits of the miyata 1000.

Well, I do like wider tires, but I am running 27" x 1 1/4" Schwalbe Marathons on my current bike and the seem fine. I don't ride much in wet weather so far, but room for fenders would be good for the future.

It's like the hardest choice in the universe.
Perhaps the "extra" for the Miyata is worth it, they don't jump-up every day.
A friend of mine doesn't care about anything other than his bike being a tool.
I take a more esthetic approach. He's the better cyclist by far.

If you fall into the category of the bike is just a tool, I would go with the LHT. If on the other hand you enjoy the art and aesthetic of bicycles, the Miyata would be a great purchase. I fall into the art and aesthetic category when it comes to bikes, and went with an old Specialized Expedition over the LHT. Over time, the Miyata will probably become the more expensive, but cooler of the two bikes.
In the end, either one will get you out on the road and enjoying the miles. Buy the bike that best matches your wallet and personality.

larger tires (32+) and fenders? if so, you may be pushing the limits of the miyata 1000.

That's not a problem with later frames that used 700C wheels. Mine (1991) easily holds 32mm tires and 60mm fenders. There is still plenty of room.

Well, I decided to go the "expensive" route and picked up the Miyata 1000. I'll let you know how it works out.

congrats!

Well, I decided to go the "expensive" route and picked up the Miyata 1000. I'll let you know how it works out.

Speaking for myself and others, THANKS for stopping by ! Looking forward to reading about it.

Well, I decided to go the "expensive" route and picked up the Miyata 1000. I'll let you know how it works out.

Congrats - please show photos before/after. We all learn a lot from these restoration stories.

>We all learn a lot from these restoration stories.

What restoration, didn't OP say "near mint condition"?

>We all learn a lot from these restoration stories.

What restoration, didn't OP say "near mint condition"?

I guess we'll see. :innocent:

Here are a couple of photos to compare -- 1984 Miyata 1000 and 1988 Univega Gran Touring

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b384/RCopple/IMG_2724a.jpg

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b384/RCopple/IMG_0003r.jpg

a guy i work with(messenger) has a 1000, he seems to really like it. He got it after his LHT got wrecked in a accident. Very nice looking bikes those miyatas.

Another thing to look at might be resale value if you decide to sell it at some point. I would say the miyata would be a better long term investment. Considering you already bought it, I think you made the right decision.

Nice to read the LHT fans out there. Many haven't ridden the Miyata. I have a 610, 615, 618 and 1000. I love the bikes. The trple buttle splined frame of my 618 is a great touring rig. I've ridden it everywhere. I have 35mm tires, and fenders, so no problem with clearance. It handles a terrific load. If you want some of the newer components, that will bump up the price a bit, but it's possible to but the Miyata for considerably let than a new LHT.

Go for the Miyata!

Nice to read the LHT fans out there. Many haven't ridden the Miyata. I have a 610, 615, 618 and 1000. I love the bikes. The trple buttle splined frame of my 618 is a great touring rig. I've ridden it everywhere. I have 35mm tires, and fenders, so no problem with clearance. It handles a terrific load. If you want some of the newer components, that will bump up the price a bit, but it's possible to but the Miyata for considerably let than a new LHT.

Go for the Miyata!

Do you have any pictures of your Miyatas?

On old vs new...

I am in a place where I could afford a 1000 and know of one that I could acquire for a very reasonable price but have decided to go another route and build up my 1987 Kuwahara Cascade or rather, rebuild it into a geared touring bike.

The Cascade really is an expedition bike with a hand made quad butted frame and classic touring geometry and in back to back rides, the Cascade is easily as nice a ride as the 1000 and has a much better feel when it is unloaded.

I used it as a fixed gear tourer for several years and have enough spare bits to build it into a geared tourer with a 24 speed drive (it was originally an 18 speed).

I have no issue and in many ways prefer the 26 inch wheels for their robust nature and the better ride one gets with 1.5 tyres which really do not give up much in the speed department.

I just have to finish setting up the crank as I plan to play around with a half step gearing and am using a vintage Cyclone GT in the rear, a Suntour Ar up front, and would use nothing but Suntour Barcons for shifting. These same parts have taken people around the world and can serve one as well today as they did 20 plus years ago.

I have ridden this bike 10's of thousands of km in a number of configurations from geared to ss to fixed and now in a re-geared state... it will be taking me on a 1000 mile tour through the Canadian Rockies next summer when the bike will then be 23 years old.

http://www.ravingbikefiend.com/bikepics/2011cascade5.JPG

Even though this is an old thread, I'll add my bit here. I bought a LHT in '06 and toured heavy a few times on it, but it shimmies like hell. Also the first frame I had had such deep tube cutting at some of the weld edges I had to return it and try a second one (surly was ok about that, but it was still a major hassle since I was living 125 miles from the closest town so the whole turn-around took 6 weeks). Anyway, surly and the like are making great, cool things these days, so bless them.

But last weekend I found a near new 1983 univega G.T. and am looking forward to polishing that all up...

But I'd take the 25+ year old bike for one reason above all others - being able to use a $#@!! quill stem and not that awful 'threadless' garbage. I always imagine how my LHT would look if it just had an elegant stem and headset.

Since this thread started, the Soma Saga also has come onto the scene. That would be my top choice for a budget touring frame at this time.

Since this thread started, the Soma Saga also has come onto the scene. That would be my top choice for a budget touring frame at this time.

One of the things I do to make money is [rigorously] test bicycles, specifically utility [non race or mtb] bikes. Every year, I put hundreds of miles on dozens of bikes, plus I collect/restore/ride vintage bikes. That said, beyond tube spec and componentry, the #1 consideration is geometry and handling. And, while I love Surly and Soma for making steel rides, their teams, like those of most modern manufacturers, just do not have a clue about geometry and handling. It's as if they don't ride the bikes or study bikes or think about bikes or compare bikes. It's amazing. Right now, the best handling new bikes are being made by a little outfit called Rawland, God bless them. I have a Univega Specialissima I just scored, and lemme tell you, it is one of the finest-riding bikes I've ever put miles on. Way up there with the best Miyatas, Treks, Raleighs, etc. The Surly LHT I find to handle horribly; same for the Cross Check and others. Same for the Soma frames. And Kona and Salsa, etc. Sad.

One of the things I do to make money is [rigorously] test bicycles, specifically utility [non race or mtb] bikes. Every year, I put hundreds of miles on dozens of bikes, plus I collect/restore/ride vintage bikes. That said, beyond tube spec and componentry, the #1 consideration is geometry and handling. And, while I love Surly and Soma for making steel rides, their teams, like those of most modern manufacturers, just do not have a clue about geometry and handling. It's as if they don't ride the bikes or study bikes or think about bikes or compare bikes. It's amazing. Right now, the best handling new bikes are being made by a little outfit called Rawland, God bless them. I have a Univega Specialissima I just scored, and lemme tell you, it is one of the finest-riding bikes I've ever put miles on. Way up there with the best Miyatas, Treks, Raleighs, etc. The Surly LHT I find to handle horribly; same for the Cross Check and others. Same for the Soma frames. And Kona and Salsa, etc. Sad.

I have quite a few friends that ride Surly LHT's who are my size so we have traded bikes with them riding my Kuwahara which has nearly identical geometry but was a hand built model with quad butted Ishiwata tubes.

One friend said he would trade me straight across for my Cascade as despite his bike running 700c wheels and mine running 26's... my Cascade has a lighter and quicker feel to it and a much nicer ride quality when it is under load.

The LHT starts out feeling a little dead when it has no gear and is pretty lifeless when you load it up... IMHO.

We build some of the best custom touring bikes in the world up here and I could build my own but already have a great touring bike.

miyata 1000 all the way.