Classic & Vintage - Brooks saddle badges - check my accuracy

I threw this page together on The Headbadge primarily from a post I made this evening:

http://www.jaysmarine.com/brooksbadges.html

Though I do have a disclaimer that the information given may not be entirely correct, potential errors are not a thing of satisfaction to me. This said, I'd appriciate it if the resident forum Brooksophiles could have a look at it and point out any inaccuracies (or omissions) if they note any.

Thanks!

Take care,

-Kurt

Thanks for the interesting summary. See the picture at bottom right of the following link for a different sans-serif badge on the B17 sprinter model introduced in the late 1920s. This maybe a badge that predates the earliest one you show from the 1930s.

http://www.classiclightweights.co.uk/designs/brooks-hs.html

Cool to see. The last san serif version is my least favorite. Aside from not looking so classic, the kerning on the letters is god awful.

Thanks for the interesting summary. See the picture at bottom right of the following link for a different sans-serif badge on the B17 sprinter model introduced in the late 1920s. This maybe a badge that predates the earliest one you show from the 1930s.

Interesting. I might have to send a PM to Hilary to see if I can use that photo.


The last san serif version is my least favorite. Aside from not looking so classic, the kerning on the letters is god awful.

I agree completely. My first thought when I saw one was "is this a fake?" That's how bad it looks.

Just be glad they didn't screw up the leading ;)

-Kurt

That's a great start, and I look forward to seeing it grow!

Here's one for your collection. The photos below show the saddle and bag that were on my 1950 Norman Rapide when I got it (photos courtesy of JunkYardBike). This is not the saddle specified for this bicycle; the original owner had it converted to upright bars and wider saddle. The new bar and stem were from another Norman of the same period, though, so I believe the conversion was done before the bike ever left the shop. Of course I don't know when that was, but it was before 1959 at any rate. Soooo... the actual date of this saddle could be anything between ca. 1948 and 1958.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3389/3595899444_4e9300b30c_o.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3382/3595900856_169490330e_o.jpg

I threw this page together on The Headbadge primarily from a post I made this evening:

http://www.jaysmarine.com/brooksbadges.html

Though I do have a disclaimer that the information given may not be entirely correct, potential errors are not a thing of satisfaction to me. This said, I'd appriciate it if the resident forum Brooksophiles could have a look at it and point out any inaccuracies (or omissions) if they note any.


nice info on that page. i only wanted to add that i have a 1973 pro with the small badge with the letters completely worn off. it looks identical to the example in your photo!

Soooo... the actual date of this saddle could be anything between ca. 1948 and 1958.

Interesting. This badge is very similar to the B.17 Sprinter on classiclightweights.co.uk - could it be that this was a transition between the '30s badge and the '50s badge?

Mind if I use the first of those two photos?

-Kurt

Of course, Kurt, you're welcome to use the photos.

I hadn't looked at the classiclightweights page when I posted them my photos. But between the two B-17's shown there, and mine, I see no differences at all. I think they're all the same badge. Note also that the the cutouts in the top of my saddle are exactly, or at least nearly, the same as the cutouts in the 1930 B-17. For all I know my saddle could be older still; how would one know?

But between the two B-17's shown there, and mine, I see no differences at all. I think they're all the same badge. Note also that the the cutouts in the top of my saddle are exactly, or at least nearly, the same as the cutouts in the 1930 B-17. For all I know my saddle could be older still; how would one know?

The 1930's B.17 has the same badge as I show on the site - serifed. Your badge - and the Sprinter - are not. The longitudinal cutouts lasted into the 1950's, far as I know.

I'll probably have to wait until another Brooks with this badge pops up - hopefully, I can locate an original that can be dated to the frameset it is on.

-Kurt

Oh, yes, serifs. Now I see 'em.

Here's a better one from a '73 small rivet pro. If you'd like to use it.
http://i33.tinypic.com/mb39si.jpg

And, here's one I don't see on your page. It's from a newer large rivet pro.
http://i34.tinypic.com/208fy9h.jpg

I'll probably have to wait until another Brooks with this badge pops up - hopefully, I can locate an original that can be dated to the frameset it is on.

How about Neal Lerner's 1949 Clubman?

Thanks Kurt, great page!

I'm not clear,can anyone help with this? When did Brooks change from the oval impressed sign on the sides of the saddle to the more "squarish" one?

(Borrowing your photo to help explain what I'm talking about - hope that's OK?

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3382/3595900856_169490330e_o.jpg

EDIT: Just updated the page - give it a look. Same URL: http://www.jaysmarine.com/brooksbadges.html

Hello fellows,

I just came in from looking at the '51 Raleigh Sports "C" Tourist. Turns out this is sitting on the back of its B.66:

http://www.jaysmarine.com/brooks_brass_b7266.jpg

The saddle came from my '73 DL-1, but I doubt whether it is original or not. Badge style looks identical to the '60s/70's variant, but is neither tin nor plastic. I'm not quite ready to say it falls in that category just yet though.


Here's a better one from a '73 small rivet pro. If you'd like to use it.

Thanks for the two photos, Gearbasher - I'll put them up on the site. I notice that the badge on your '73 small rivet Pro is unique in itself - it has a stepped badge shape as opposed to the rectangular w/rounded end design of the three that I have here.


How about Neal Lerner's 1949 Clubman?

I don't recall whether his machine has the original saddle on it (I'm probably thinking of his '51 though). I'll have a look.


I'm not clear,can anyone help with this? When did Brooks change from the oval impressed sign on the sides of the saddle to the more "squarish" one?

You've got me there. The old B.66 top with the '30s badge has the round stamp as well.

Take care,

-Kurt

Here's one form the 20's +/-

The saddle cover is a reproduction built on a original frame. The badge is original, although not from this saddle.

The Wool Jersey photo will not open here, so you will have to click on the link to view.

http://www.wooljersey.com/gallery/v/otis/pierce/persaddletop.jpg.html?g2_imageViewsIndex=1

Kurt,
I didn't think you would update the site so fast. I think I might have erred with the '73 badge. Since you pointed out the slight difference (great eyes), I decided to check it against a few other Brooks saddles I own. When I purchased the saddle (eBay), I was told it was stamped A '73, but very faintly. I checked with a jeweler's loupe and can not find the stamp. So I matched the saddle to a stamped '73 and the nose is cut differently. The nose on this saddle is cut more like a '77 Brooks I own, but the badge on the '77 looks just like the one on the '73. So, I really can't confirm the date. Sorry, for any difficutlties.

Kurt,
I didn't think you would update the site so fast. I think I might have erred with the '73 badge. Since you pointed out the slight difference (great eyes), I decided to check it against a few other Brooks saddles I own. When I purchased the saddle (eBay), I was told it was stamped A '73, but very faintly. I checked with a jeweler's loupe and can not find the stamp. So I matched the saddle to a stamped '73 and the nose is cut differently. The nose on this saddle is cut more like a '77 Brooks I own, but the badge on the '77 looks just like the one on the '73. So, I really can't confirm the date. Sorry, for any difficutlties.

I gather then that this saddle has the nose cut low in front, correct? I've seen a '79 small-rivet cut in that same manner - the only problem is, I forgot to take a photo of it's badge. This is the saddle I refer to:

http://www.jaysmarine.com/brooks_pro_smallrivet_1.jpg

Don't worry about nose cut styles. Brooks produced both open and closed-nose saddles with both rivet sizes off and on throughout the years - with no rhyme or reason for doing so.

I also have a large-rivet '79 with the v2 badge, so if yours is a '77 - or thereabouts - the two designs must have run concurrently.

Take care,

-Kurt

Here's one form the 20's +/-

Excellent. Mind if I use the photo?

-Kurt

I gather then that this saddle has the nose cut low in front, correct? I've seen a '79 small-rivet cut in that same manner - the only problem is, I forgot to take a photo of it's badge. This is the saddle I refer to:



Actually, the nose is cut extremely high. It might even be a little higher than my '77.

http://i37.tinypic.com/2d8jmfq.jpg

Looks as if someone chopped a bit off the nose to access the tension bolt.

-Kurt

Looks as if someone chopped a bit off the nose to access the tension bolt.

-Kurt

If they did, they spent the time coloring the leather to match. Plus, the tension bolt hasn't been moved.
Anyhow, to try to make amends for adding some confusion in your life, here's a picture of my '77 badge. It's not perfect, but a bit more legible than the '73 you have posted.
http://i35.tinypic.com/1zbds8y.jpg

Interesting. I've updated the photo on the server, but I'm holding off from uploading the page; I've already added Otis' picture to the HTML code of the page, and would prefer to wait until I have his permission.

-Kurt

Excellent. Mind if I use the photo?

-Kurt

Be my guest.

Be my guest.

Done.

Updates made to the site - I encourage everyone to give it a look over.

-Kurt

You might be interested in this:
http://wallbike.com/blog/2009/03/02/big-brooks-badge/

Maybe this will help narrow down the date range for this badge. This is on the Gents B66 that came on my '51 Rudge Sports Light.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a261/catskillscooby/BikeForums/DSCI0169.jpg

You might be interested in this:
http://wallbike.com/blog/2009/03/02/big-brooks-badge/

I saw that. It immidiately prompted me to ask: "Is that badge big, or is it just that the saddle is narrow?" The camera fisheye doesn't help.


Maybe this will help narrow down the date range for this badge. This is on the Gents B66 that came on my '51 Rudge Sports Light.

It certainly does, though it raises a question as to the date range of that other deep-stamped badge I have on the site. Probably mid-50's.

-Kurt

My Raleigh, made ca 1966:

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e341/Doohickie/Bicycle08/Picture173.jpg

Your "1960's/70's Brooks badge, metal:

http://www.jaysmarine.com/brooks_metal_b7266.jpg

Pretty durned close, if you ask me.

Pretty durned close, if you ask me.

Same badge. If you're certain your Brooks is original to the DL-1, then this badge was in circulation by '66/'65, at least.

-Kurt

Great page, Kurt.

I'm no Brooks expert but I did just score my first Brooks, a B72. It looks to be a 1968 saddle. It was on a 1969 bike, and it has B68 stamped on the underside metal bridge.

Its badge matches the 60s-70s metal badge (http://www.jaysmarine.com/brooks_metal_b7266.jpg) on your site.

Good job, Kurt! It's shaping up nicely. It would be nice to include the date stamps associated with each badge, both for the one in the photo specifically, and for other saddles known to have that badge.

When did date stamps first appear?


I saw that. It immediately prompted me to ask: "Is that badge big, or is it just that the saddle is narrow?"


That's the sans-serif badge, so should we assume it's a bit later than the 20's / 30's bike it was seen on?

At any rate, this badge always seems to be about as long as the space between the two rivets directly above it; i.e. there's a rivet directly above each end of the badge. So if this is a large badge, the rivets are unusually far apart, which seems unlikely to me. Therefore, it must be a very narrow saddle. I wonder if it's a juvenile model.

Edit: No, I take back the juvenile remark. There's a similar "Brooks Sprinter" on ebay now, though without badge; and it is one narrow saddle (putting as much emphasis on narrow as possible).

Same badge. If you're certain your Brooks is original to the DL-1, then this badge was in circulation by '66/'65, at least.

-Kurt

I've only owned the bike a year so I can't be 100% certain, but it is a very well-weathered saddle. I think we can take it as original.

I pulled this B-15 off of a 70s? Schwinn Continental:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v218/jvpro/bianchi.jpg
It had a white plastic brooks badge, broken, half missing.
Here's the bike, I put a different saddle on it before selling:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v218/jvpro/schwinn.jpg

I'm no Brooks expert but I did just score my first Brooks, a B72. It looks to be a 1968 saddle. It was on a 1969 bike, and it has B68 stamped on the underside metal bridge.

Its badge matches the 60s-70s metal badge (http://www.jaysmarine.com/brooks_metal_b7266.jpg) on your site.

Excellent - that's positive ID, and would support the theory that Doohickie's saddle is original to his DL-1.



Good job, Kurt! It's shaping up nicely. It would be nice to include the date stamps associated with each badge, both for the one in the photo specifically, and for other saddles known to have that badge.

Can be done.


When did date stamps first appear?

Just after 1959, and they ran inconsistently afterwards. I pulled this information from here:

http://www.brooksarchives.info/museum/liska/liskab17.html


That's the sans-serif badge, so should we assume it's a bit later than the 20's / 30's bike it was seen on?

Conceivably, it looks identical to the badge on your B.66.


Edit: No, I take back the juvenile remark. There's a similar "Brooks Sprinter" on ebay now, though without badge; and it is one narrow saddle (putting as much emphasis on narrow as possible).

Indeed - have a look at the site I linked above. Virtually any Brooks badge will overwhelm that thing.


I pulled this B-15 off of a 70s? Schwinn Continental:

Definitely not original to the bike. If it was a Super Sport, perhaps, but not on a Conti.

-Kurt

P.S.: Page has been updated per RHM's suggestions.

-Kurt

Kurt, I don't think this one is on your collection:

http://velobase.com/CompImages/Saddles/71281B06-3C4A-4B88-A002-90C8C20D85D1.jpeg

VeloBase data on this is a 1960's B15 Swallow for what it's worth. Appears to be brass? Embossed, "Brooks" only.

Here's a larger res photo of the 40's/early 50's San-Serif one. My data claims that this saddle was from the 60's, but I am not confident in that given your information on the changes. Saddle is a B17 Champion Sprinter for what that's worth.

http://velobase.com/CompImages/Saddles/376335BB-1C41-4305-8AA3-BFCFD3EBCBC5.jpeg

Kurt, two things about your Brooks page:

First: For the mid 90's badge you state the material reverted back to plastic. The two I have are metal. One is silver colored and the other (made from the same material) is copper colored to match the copper rails.

Second: I checked my brother's 80s Pinarello (collecting dust in my basement...too bad it's 2 sizes too big for me) He has a large rivet pro with the '73-'79 badge. The date stamp on that saddle is "B 84".

When did date stamps first appear?


Just after 1959, and they ran inconsistently afterwards. I pulled this information from here:

http://www.brooksarchives.info/museum/liska/liskab17.html

My new vocabulary word of the day: "cantle-plate (http://www.brooksarchives.info/museum/liska/liskab17.html)."

Saddle is a B17 Champion Sprinter for what that's worth.

http://velobase.com/CompImages/Saddles/376335BB-1C41-4305-8AA3-BFCFD3EBCBC5.jpeg
I like Brooks saddles, but my butt hurts just looking at that one.

My Raleigh, made ca 1966:

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e341/Doohickie/Bicycle08/Picture173.jpg

Your "1960's/70's Brooks badge, metal:

http://www.jaysmarine.com/brooks_metal_b7266.jpg
My Raleigh, made ca 1966:



Your "1960's/70's Brooks badge, metal:




The badge is identical to the one on my Brooks that I bought off the wall at the local Schwinn shop in around "68", give or take a year. I don't know the model of mine. The embossing has worn of many years ago. The saddle still functions great though. I believe I paid $40 for it.

First: For the mid 90's badge you state the material reverted back to plastic. The two I have are metal. One is silver colored and the other (made from the same material) is copper colored to match the copper rails.

Good call - mine is tin with copper plate. Do you have a photo of your silver variant?


Second: I checked my brother's 80s Pinarello (collecting dust in my basement...too bad it's 2 sizes too big for me) He has a large rivet pro with the '73-'79 badge. The date stamp on that saddle is "B 84".

Interesting. From what I can see, the new Sturmey logo popped up in 1983 - question is, how long did it take the saddles to acquire the new-logo badge?

-Kurt

The badge is identical to the one on my Brooks that I bought off the wall at the local Schwinn shop in around "68", give or take a year. I don't know the model of mine. The embossing has worn of many years ago. The saddle still functions great though. I believe I paid $40 for it.

Thanks for the input.

Doohickie pretty much confirmed this badge was used as early as '66 - we're good on this one for now; what I could use is any indication that this badge was used earlier then '66.

-Kurt

Good call - mine is tin with copper plate. Do you have a photo of your silver variant?
-Kurt

I can take a pic and post it, but it will have to wait until Tues. or Wed. I'm on a tight schedule right now.

I agree completely. My first thought when I saw one was "is this a fake?" That's how bad it looks.

Just be glad they didn't screw up the leading ;)

-Kurt

The irony, Kurt, is that they had a PERFECT san serif example on the seat itself to follow. And they STILL messed it up.

Thanks for the input.

Doohickie pretty much confirmed this badge was used as early as '66 - we're good on this one for now; what I could use is any indication that this badge was used earlier then '66.

-Kurt

The saddle on my Raleigh Lenton Sports six speed has the date code C 65. Attached is a rather terrible photo of its badge.

123957

The saddle on my Raleigh Lenton Sports six speed has the date code C 65. Attached is a rather terrible photo of its badge.

Good enough for a positive ID. Just revised the site to reflect it.

-Kurt

You might be interested in this:
http://wallbike.com/blog/2009/03/02/big-brooks-badge/

Is that a very big badge = or a very narrow saddle? :lol::lol::lol: