Living Car Free - The Future Of America & Bicycling-Shrinking & Downsizing Some Communities?

http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/Business/shrink-survive-rust-belt-city-bulldozes-vacant-homes/story?id=8936668

Would you like 40% or more of your community to be bulldozed down and made smaller in population and physical size? Will that make it more attractive to live and cycle?

What will make it more attractive to live and cycle there is to cut back on free trade and not allowing millions of imported cars to destroy our auto industry. Then the factories will reopen again, hiring will start and all those homes will be full of families. It's all pretty simple.

You might get an earful on this topic. Michigan is a case study on how not to run a state.

I have to ask, Where does the bulldozing stop? 40%? 60%? 80%? Maybe we could turn the whole state into a park? Every fiscal year, michigan increases taxes,fees and regulation on individuals and businesses. Every year, fewer productive people and less opportunity. It ain't workin...

The lakeshore areas and Upper peninsula are beautiful and underrated places to go cycling. No amount of bulldozing is going to make Flint a nicer place to go cycling.

It doesn’t seem as if people biking will have any effect on the conditions that are killing the rust belt.

What will make it more attractive to live and cycle there is to cut back on free trade and not allowing millions of imported cars to destroy our auto industry. Then the factories will reopen again, hiring will start and all those homes will be full of families. It's all pretty simple.

GM brought it on themselves with poor management, to a certain extent.

As far as the article is concerned, I believe what they are doing is a necessity. You can't have a bunch of vacant, destitute, degraded properties sitting around. They attract a variety of vermin, including the two legged variety. It has been proven time and time again in inner city neighborhoods, that if you can keep things clean, keep building in good condition, and have people take ownership and pride in their neighborhoods it makes it easier to control crime. Unfortunately absentee landlords are a real problem in this battle.

Aaron:)

Knocking down unoccuppied houses doesn't do anything to make a community a better place to ride a bike. What makes a good biking town is density. If everything you need is within an easy to bike to radius, then biking is the obvious choice. There were some contradictory statements in the article - at one point the mayor mentions new houses being built on larger lots and then later says he'd "like to pay people to relocate to create denser neighborhoods". Larger lots implies less dense neighborhoods and means longer distances to travel.

I like Dahon.Steve's idea - let's make everyone buy American cars instead of Japanese and European. That way the management at the Big 3 wouldn't have to be accountable for poor decision making, all of our cars could be designed as poorly as the engineers felt like (creating more jobs for mechanics) and the unions could make sure that their employees get paid more than doctors. It would certainly make car buying a lot easier if we had fewer choices.

I'm assuming that the Dahon in Dahon.Steve's name is from the folding bike company Dahon. Which is based in LA but makes their bikes in foreign countries. How ironic.

Knocking down unoccuppied houses doesn't do anything to make a community a better place to ride a bike. What makes a good biking town is density. If everything you need is within an easy to bike to radius, then biking is the obvious choice. There were some contradictory statements in the article - at one point the mayor mentions new houses being built on larger lots and then later says he'd "like to pay people to relocate to create denser neighborhoods". Larger lots implies less dense neighborhoods and means longer distances to travel.

I like Dahon.Steve's idea - let's make everyone buy American cars instead of Japanese and European. That way the management at the Big 3 wouldn't have to be accountable for poor decision making, all of our cars could be designed as poorly as the engineers felt like (creating more jobs for mechanics) and the unions could make sure that their employees get paid more than doctors. It would certainly make car buying a lot easier if we had fewer choices.

I'm assuming that the Dahon in Dahon.Steve's name is from the folding bike company Dahon. Which is based in LA but makes their bikes in foreign countries. How ironic.

Earlier this year, the New York Times ran a series of articles on cities in crisis, many in the rust belt. In many neighborhoods, those houses that have been lost to foreclosure are skeletons, having had plumbing and most fixtures ripped out by the displaced owners and/or scavengers and walls and flooring damaged or demolished by squatters, who sometimes use the materials to start fires for cooking and heat. Far too often, such abandoned and damaged houses also have been come magnets for crime--drug sales/use and worse. In those instances, it may make more sense to tear down the structures.

This may be a little off-topic, but here goes. The article states that these abandoned homes are ripped apart by bulldozers and the remains are presumably sent to a landfill.

Fact: Michigan has one of the highest unemployment rates in the country.

Why can't these communities contract out demolition to teams that could tear these houses down much more slowly and possible salvage some of the material?

That would certainly help the unemployment situation. It would also reduce stress on landfills and presumably provide a product (used lumber and other building materials) that was manufactured in the USA.

This may be a little off-topic, but here goes. The article states that these abandoned homes are ripped apart by bulldozers and the remains are presumably sent to a landfill.

Fact: Michigan has one of the highest unemployment rates in the country.

Why can't these communities contract out demolition to teams that could tear these houses down much more slowly and possible salvage some of the material?

That would certainly help the unemployment situation. It would also reduce stress on landfills and presumably provide a product (used lumber and other building materials) that was manufactured in the USA.

Good idea to a point, those houses that they show in the article are low end and probably have minimal salvageable material in them. I have worked in the past disassembling houses and other structures. Outside of some moldings, doors, windows and nice architectural features there isn't much market for used wood, insulation or other stuff. The wood is quite often full of broken off nails, screws and other fun stuff. By the time you pay someone to clean it up, sort it, stock it and then sell it you would come out money ahead buying a whole truckload of new 2x4 studs. Now on a personal level? You had better believe I recycle all the wood I can around the home place and quite often dumpster dive for stuff on building sites (with permission). Now an much older home would prove valuable for the quality of the lumber in it. From personal observation anything built after about 1950 is not going to be worth much as salvage, you also have the issue of having to abate asbestos in houses built prior to the 1980's.

I would also bet that the tear down is either being done by the lowest bidder or by the city using city employees and city equipment.

Aaron:)

gerv,

The picture of many of these types of homes that was painted by the New York Times series was extremely bleak. Many of the abandoned homes didn't have much salvageable left in them; anything of value had been removed by the displaced owners and/or scavengers, aka thieves. There are no fixtures, no cabinetry, there is no plumbing or duct work. If squatters have stayed in a house any length of time, it may not have many walls or much flooring left. On top of that, those that have been taken over by drug dealers and users may be deemed chemically polluted too and none of the remaining building material might be salvageable in that instance. In fact, nationwide, houses that have been used during the production of drugs, such as meth, are supposed to be reported and entered into a database. Those houses then need to be decontaminated before they can be lived in, sold or rented (the cost of cleanup is to be borne by the legal owner). If chemical contamination cannot be cleaned up, or is too expensive, they get demolished.

Good idea to a point, those houses that they show in the article are low end and probably have minimal salvageable material in them. I have worked in the past disassembling houses and other structures. Outside of some moldings, doors, windows and nice architectural features there isn't much market for used wood, insulation or other stuff. The wood is quite often full of broken off nails, screws and other fun stuff. By the time you pay someone to clean it up, sort it, stock it and then sell it you would come out money ahead buying a whole truckload of new 2x4 studs. Now on a personal level? You had better believe I recycle all the wood I can around the home place and quite often dumpster dive for stuff on building sites (with permission). Now an much older home would prove valuable for the quality of the lumber in it. From personal observation anything built after about 1950 is not going to be worth much as salvage, you also have the issue of having to abate asbestos in houses built prior to the 1980's.

I would also bet that the tear down is either being done by the lowest bidder or by the city using city employees and city equipment.

Aaron:)

Very good point. I don’t know how it works in other states but here it would cost more of the tax payer’s money to have a crew of people tear it down than a bulldozer. Plus you have to consider the workers comp and other benefits you would end up paying on.

Big cities have an advantage of denser living making moving about with a car less necessary. But they have an Achilles heel and that is without a major industry they become like dead oak trees. The insides start to rot way before the tree falls down. The old model of city living happened because that is where the jobs were. That is not necessarily the case anymore because with new city planning industry is placed in industrial parks outside of the city center and closer to rail and truck access. The advantages to that model is that it is easier to build for the specific needs of a company in an industrial park than it is to use buildings not suited to those same needs after another company has moved out. The rest belt is a perfect example of how this works.

Very good point. I don’t know how it works in other states but here it would cost more of the tax payer’s money to have a crew of people tear it down than a bulldozer. Plus you have to consider the workers comp and other benefits you would end up paying on.

Big cities have an advantage of denser living making moving about with a car less necessary. But they have an Achilles heel and that is without a major industry they become like dead oak trees. The insides start to rot way before the tree falls down. The old model of city living happened because that is where the jobs were. That is not necessarily the case anymore because with new city planning industry is placed in industrial parks outside of the city center and closer to rail and truck access. The advantages to that model is that it is easier to build for the specific needs of a company in an industrial park than it is to use buildings not suited to those same needs after another company has moved out. The rest belt is a perfect example of how this works.

A lot of the newer industrial parks in our area don't even have rail access anymore. It is all about trucks and interstate access now.:notamused: They built a 500 acre one in our county and the first thing they did was build a spur road to the nearest interstate, which BTW is already running at over 150% of designed capacity. It is one of the older interstates and has not been upgraded since it was built.

Aaron:)

It is all about trucks and interstate access now.

Interstates are NOT the wave of the future. :twitchy:

Locally-produced goods and services are a much more likely prospect for rebuilding our economy.

Interstates are NOT the wave of the future. :twitchy:

Locally-produced goods and services are a much more likely prospect for rebuilding our economy.

Believe me I am well aware of that, and support local sourced products.

But the gubbmint on both the national and local level is still convinced the best way to ease congestion and get products to market is via the roadways. Build more roads!

In Raleigh NC they are spending some 6-9 million dollars of taxpayers dollars to "improve" a stretch of city streets by installing roundabouts. Cyclists asked for some infrastructure to be included in the "improvements" and the largest howl came from car owners worried about losing parking.:innocent: They are also selling off the rights to build the outer loop of the interstate to private companies who of course will put tolls on it. At best they will build it with little or no taxpayer money, but I suspect the land acquisition was at taxpayers expense, and of course the drivers are up in arms about having to pay to use the road. If they wait on the state it probably will be another 15-20 years before it will be built, and none of this is going to really help cyclists.

Aaron:)

Believe me I am well aware of that, and support local sourced products.

But the gubbmint on both the national and local level is still convinced the best way to ease congestion and get products to market is via the roadways. Build more roads!

In Raleigh NC they are spending some 6-9 million dollars of taxpayers dollars to "improve" a stretch of city streets by installing roundabouts. Cyclists asked for some infrastructure to be included in the "improvements" and the largest howl came from car owners worried about losing parking.:innocent: They are also selling off the rights to build the outer loop of the interstate to private companies who of course will put tolls on it. At best they will build it with little or no taxpayer money, but I suspect the land acquisition was at taxpayers expense, and of course the drivers are up in arms about having to pay to use the road. If they wait on the state it probably will be another 15-20 years before it will be built, and none of this is going to really help cyclists.

Aaron:)

That is a very valid and realistic appraisal. And it is how things are and will be in any democracy. Cycling will always be an afterthought in any developed country where the majority owns cars and industry provides jobs and political support.

There is a problem with the hope in local production and food supply. Who will become the new farmers and where will they get the land necessary to supply the needs of the population? The family farmer is almost as much of a rare breed as car free commuters. I happen to live in what used to be a farming community and now most of the produce we eat comes from out of the country. I can still get strawberries, Apricots, Peaches, Oranges and Avocados locally but that is only a fraction of the fruits and vegetables we eat and while we do have dairies we can’t get local meat, fish or foul.

There is not now nor will there ever be a “take us back to the good old days” lobby that can drop a bundle of money on the government.

That is a very valid and realistic appraisal. And it is how things are and will be in any democracy. Cycling will always be an afterthought in any developed country where the majority owns cars and industry provides jobs and political support.

There is a problem with the hope in local production and food supply. Who will become the new farmers and where will they get the land necessary to supply the needs of the population? The family farmer is almost as much of a rare breed as car free commuters. I happen to live in what used to be a farming community and now most of the produce we eat comes from out of the country. I can still get strawberries, Apricots, Peaches, Oranges and Avocados locally but that is only a fraction of the fruits and vegetables we eat and while we do have dairies we can’t get local meat, fish or foul.

There is not now nor will there ever be a “take us back to the good old days” lobby that can drop a bundle of money on the government.


They could reclaim some of that land that is under those houses they are bulldozing.:innocent::D I have no clue where the next generation of farmers is going to come from. I come from a family farm background (dairy), we are still messing about with small scale stuff, but nothing to write home about. The area I live in does much better than average for local production. Outside of obvious imports like citrus, coffee, tea and the like, I can buy everything I need to survive and it will have been produced within a 100 mile radius of my home. I realize not many people can say that, and I consider it a blessing that I can. In many cases I know the people that produced what I am buying on a first name basis.:thumb:

Aaron:)

They could reclaim some of that land that is under those houses they are bulldozing.:innocent::D I have no clue where the next generation of farmers is going to come from. I come from a family farm background (dairy), we are still messing about with small scale stuff, but nothing to write home about. The area I live in does much better than average for local production. Outside of obvious imports like citrus, coffee, tea and the like, I can buy everything I need to survive and it will have been produced within a 100 mile radius of my home. I realize not many people can say that, and I consider it a blessing that I can. In many cases I know the people that produced what I am buying on a first name basis.:thumb:

Aaron:)

I know that was tongue and cheek because the kinds of land or dirt you need for farming has been stripped away long ago form most cities. But the truth is the world food supply has become something only agribusiness can handle. We have too many people and not enough land for traditional farming on the kind of scale necessary. They can produce two and three crops on the same land they used to produce one. Even Hydro farming produces more per acre and a lower cost that traditional farming.

Unless we become protectionist industry isn’t coming back either. Wal-Mart’s success is a sign of the times that will not change in our lifetime.

Unless we become protectionist industry isn’t coming back either. Wal-Mart’s success is a sign of the times that will not change in our lifetime.

I used to go to local producers for fruits and vegetables and to some degree I still can but not for more than half of what we eat. And now that we have a Winco that could be even less.

gerv,

The picture of many of these types of homes that was painted by the New York Times series was extremely bleak. Many of the abandoned homes didn't have much salvageable left in them; anything of value had been removed by the displaced owners and/or scavengers, aka thieves. There are no fixtures, no cabinetry, there is no plumbing or duct work. If squatters have stayed in a house any length of time, it may not have many walls or much flooring left. On top of that, those that have been taken over by drug dealers and users may be deemed chemically polluted too and none of the remaining building material might be salvageable in that instance. In fact, nationwide, houses that have been used during the production of drugs, such as meth, are supposed to be reported and entered into a database. Those houses then need to be decontaminated before they can be lived in, sold or rented (the cost of cleanup is to be borne by the legal owner). If chemical contamination cannot be cleaned up, or is too expensive, they get demolished.

That may be the case here. But I know that too often in our communities we refuse to salvage good lumber because it's very labor intensive. The lumber ends up in landfills and we are forced to buy new stuff.

A long time ago, I built a house. Where possible I used salvage lumber. Though the lumber was much cheaper than new, there was a lot of extra work involved before you could use it. You had to cut every stick to size and deal with any nails left sticking out. However, the lumber was perfectly dry and rot free. It is still standing in the new house. In my particular case, it was a great way to save some money by doing a little extra labor.

I know that was tongue and cheek because the kinds of land or dirt you need for farming has been stripped away long ago form most cities. But the truth is the world food supply has become something only agribusiness can handle. We have too many people and not enough land for traditional farming on the kind of scale necessary. They can produce two and three crops on the same land they used to produce one. Even Hydro farming produces more per acre and a lower cost that traditional farming.

Unless we become protectionist industry isn’t coming back either. Wal-Mart’s success is a sign of the times that will not change in our lifetime.

Unless we become protectionist industry isn’t coming back either. Wal-Mart’s success is a sign of the times that will not change in our lifetime.

I used to go to local producers for fruits and vegetables and to some degree I still can but not for more than half of what we eat. And now that we have a Winco that could be even less.

The biggest problem with most agribusiness today is that it depends on cheap energy for the fertilizer production. It is also unsustainable in it's current form. There are some large scale operations that are sustainable but they are few and far between, then you get into the transportation issues and costs.

Aaron:)

The biggest problem with most agribusiness today is that it depends on cheap energy for the fertilizer production. It is also unsustainable in it's current form. There are some large scale operations that are sustainable but they are few and far between, then you get into the transportation issues and costs.

Aaron:)

True but there is no small scale alternative. We can’t move back into the old family farm model and the world food supply will rely on transportation or be faced with the cycle of famine we have seen in under developed third world countries for years. We have no choice in the direction we must move. Unless we have another black plague while out 50 percent of the population.

What will make it more attractive to live and cycle there is to cut back on free trade and not allowing millions of imported cars to destroy our auto industry. Then the factories will reopen again, hiring will start and all those homes will be full of families. It's all pretty simple.

Steve.Dahon, I have long dreamed about the scenerio you describe. BUT, it ain't gonna happen. There will always be some new player bringing in cheaper goods and cheaper cars. First it was the Europeans, then it was the Japanese, then the Koreans, soon it will be the Chinese.

If the world starts spinning in the opposite direction and the USA goes completely to hell, then we might be price competitive again. If that does happen, there will be a lot of people riding bicycles in the USA - not because they want to, but because they have to. That would suck.

As for a reclaim of urban areas. According to history repeating itself...

The burbs will become the new slums. Poor families will move into once gorgeous neighborhoods which will then become the new slums. Rewind, press play, repeat. You know, Harlem used to be a premier residential neighborhood back in the 1800's. People without jobs don't need to live close to employment.

Nobody is going to be knocking down houses on a mass scale in the USA no matter what. If fuel prices soar, people with jobs and means will reclaim city property and the poor will move out to the burbs. Welfare folks will live in today's McMansions. Perhaps our generation will be as distant as brown shadows in a tin plate photograph when it happens.

Don't worry, the more things change, the more they will remain the same.

GM brought it on themselves with poor management, to a certain extent.

As far as the article is concerned, I believe what they are doing is a necessity. You can't have a bunch of vacant, destitute, degraded properties sitting around. They attract a variety of vermin, including the two legged variety. It has been proven time and time again in inner city neighborhoods, that if you can keep things clean, keep building in good condition, and have people take ownership and pride in their neighborhoods it makes it easier to control crime. Unfortunately absentee landlords are a real problem in this battle.

Aaron:)

For sure. Michigan and Indiana are anomalies. If you haven't driven through the rust belt, don't. Watch the videos instead. It needs to be bulldozed or maybe nuke the whole place to do it cheaper. What a cockroach holiday those states are. Michigan and Indiana don't represent the rest of the USA.

Bulldozing those burnt out, dilapidated cities is like sweeping the filth off of your porch. We need to do it from time to time; clean things up. Start fresh. The best thing that could happen to Michigan and Indiana would be to return it back to fertile farmland and improve the economy and the environment.

You know, if you bothered to read the article, it would seem like the whole of America is going to hell. Once thriving cities like Flint, Michigan are now ghost towns.

Well, thing change. Whole cities change. Look at the many once booming mining towns out west - now ghost towns or gone completely. There are towns throughout the midwest that were hopeful communities and are now nothing but buried foundations and scrub covered fields. Look at memory towns like Duluth Minnesota - the shadows of which are so oppulant that it doesn't take much to imagine the thriving city during the iron and lumber days of yesteryear.

The world doesn't just fall apart completely. Things change. People move. Money moves. Oasis turn to deserts and deserts into forests.

What is happening to Flint and other cities like it is normal. Who knows, one day nature might reclaim the land as it has done in other cities. If so, Great! In 100 or so years, the land will be "discovered" again as a premier location for commerce, industry, and residence.

For sure. Michigan and Indiana are anomalies. If you haven't driven through the rust belt, don't. Watch the videos instead. It needs to be bulldozed or maybe nuke the whole place to do it cheaper. What a cockroach holiday those states are. Michigan and Indiana don't represent the rest of the USA.

Bulldozing those burnt out, dilapidated cities is like sweeping the filth off of your porch. We need to do it from time to time; clean things up. Start fresh. The best thing that could happen to Michigan and Indiana would be to return it back to fertile farmland and improve the economy and the environment.

The "rust belt" states do have one ace in the hole and that is fresh water. The midwest has some of the largest fresh water aquafers in the country as well as the great lakes. Whether it be energy production, manufacturing or agriculture they all need fresh water. I don't think Indiana is in the same hole as Michigan. Indianapolis is still a growing city, it is now larger than Detriot. Indiana just got a new Honda plant, Michigan is dumping manufacturing as fast as it can. Except for perhaps Gary, I think Indiana will be fine in a few years, Michigan, will take alot longer.

You know, if you bothered to read the article, it would seem like the whole of America is going to hell. Once thriving cities like Flint, Michigan are now ghost towns.

Well, thing change. Whole cities change. Look at the many once booming mining towns out west - now ghost towns or gone completely. There are towns throughout the midwest that were hopeful communities and are now nothing but buried foundations and scrub covered fields. Look at memory towns like Duluth Minnesota - the shadows of which are so oppulant that it doesn't take much to imagine the thriving city during the iron and lumber days of yesteryear.

The world doesn't just fall apart completely. Things change. People move. Money moves. Oasis turn to deserts and deserts into forests.

What is happening to Flint and other cities like it is normal. Who knows, one day nature might reclaim the land as it has done in other cities. If so, Great! In 100 or so years, the land will be "discovered" again as a premier location for commerce, industry, and residence.

Towns come and go, and there is no reason cities don't either. Sometimes it brought on by economics, other times by natural or even man made disasters. It is also nationwide in the US. One that comes to mind is Elmira, NY has declined from a population of 50,000 to around 30,000 today. It was an industrial and railroad city. Florence, SC, Kingstree, SC and there are thousands more. Some were farming centers, some industrial, others where railways intersected. Some areas like Florida have boomed and busted.

Aaron:)