Classic & Vintage - eBay seller - caleb8381

I dunno if this is one of your guys but WOW. :thumb:

In the last 3 or so months caleb8381 has put up for sale some of the most beautiful vintage frames. None of which are in my price range, but it hasn't stopped me from bidding on a few :innocent:

Even looking at the seller's current listings is a picture of awesome.

here's a few:

http://www.bikeforums.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=123959&stc=1&d=1257262766
http://www.bikeforums.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=123960&stc=1&d=1257262829
http://www.bikeforums.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=123961&stc=1&d=1257262866

Where are these frames coming from??? there seems to be an endless supply. Most are repainted I believe, but with correct decals.

I'm currently lusting after that International in the last photo. Its exactly what I want and in my size....and currently with a BIN of $1000 :rolleyes:

nice ..
lovely international .
thanks for the pictures
CHeers
/T

For a different opinion on the topic, see this thread:

http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=599546

See the thread:

http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=599546

And the Paramount is butchered, wrong decals on downtube, wrong font among other things. Slick Chrome and paint. So, if one likes that, its available.

I suggest you buy your cars new, a used car salesman will snooker you.

...and this is exactly why I posted it here. I wanted to know the full story. :thumb:

Nice bikes!

I can't quite understand the current buzz on the Internationals, or the prices. Last year there was an almost complete, in the box, NOS International locally for $900. It was old original stock of the shop and back in the day they had taken off the brake calipers and the wheels to sell to customers. They were including some new calipers and a set of Shimano wheels. It sat on their floor for 6 months before someone from the US was up here on holidays and bought it. There are a LOT of Raleighs up here, kind of like your Schwinns.

vjp

Oh yeah, let's not forget the
http://i759.photobucket.com/albums/xx234/confete8/CSC_0765.jpg?t=1256248645

sure does look pretty in the pictures.

I missed the previous thread about this seller over the weekend. Sorry to rehash old wounds.

I can't quite understand the current buzz on the Internationals


For people that started riding in the early 70s, the Internationals and Paramounts were readily available production bikes with Campagnolo that were highly desired. In more sophisticated circles it was the holy grail Italian stuff, but both those were pretty good bikes for the price at the time. I guess the people who couldn't afford them then can now.

For people that started riding in the early 70s, the Internationals and Paramounts were readily available production bikes with Campagnolo that were highly desired. In more sophisticated circles it was the holy grail Italian stuff, but both those were pretty good bikes for the price at the time. I guess the people who couldn't afford them then can now.

Makes sense, a "the grass is always greener" kind of deal. No Paramounts here in Canada so I kind of lust for them.

Did you know that the Paramount came about in 1938 because of the dominance of the Canadian CCM Flyer in 6 Day Racing? Had to have the stars on an American bike!

vjp

For people that started riding in the early 70s, the Internationals and Paramounts were readily available production bikes with Campagnolo that were highly desired. In more sophisticated circles it was the holy grail Italian stuff, but both those were pretty good bikes for the price at the time. I guess the people who couldn't afford them then can now.

Yeah, that's me...... :thumb:

Incorrectly restored, overglossed, ridiculously priced junk !

...and just for the sake of restating it, that "touring" Paramount has been built on a P-13. Please tell me how one is supposed to mount fenders to their $2,000 frame when the front fork doesn't have eyelets, nor the clearance necessary to allow the fenders to fit.

-Kurt

Someone should do something about this guy, this Bianchi Specialissima has a replacement fork that he makes absolutely no mention of...also the headset isn't pressed in...again no mention!

http://cgi.ebay.com/bianchi-specialissima-campagnolo-beautiful-must-see_W0QQitemZ120488753481QQcmdZViewItemQQptZRoad_Bikes?hash=item1c0db07949&ssPageName=RSS:B:SHOP:US:101

Someone should do something about this guy, this Bianchi Specialissima has a replacement fork that he makes absolutely no mention of...also the headset isn't pressed in...again no mention!

Whoever has the right combination of money, stupidity, and lack of knowledge to be taken in by these overpriced kludges deserves everything he or she gets.

Incidentally, I find his Photobucket names amusing. All contain the word "confete." Misspelling "Confente" is quite fitting for this character, eh?

-Kurt

Someone should do something about this guy, this Bianchi Specialissima has a replacement fork that he makes absolutely no mention of...also the headset isn't pressed in...again no mention!

http://cgi.ebay.com/bianchi-specialissima-campagnolo-beautiful-must-see_W0QQitemZ120488753481QQcmdZViewItemQQptZRoad_Bikes?hash=item1c0db07949&ssPageName=RSS:B:SHOP:US:101

He does make mention of the fork after the last picture.
Though it certainly IS NOT an upgrade befitting of that bike.
-Gene-

He does make mention of the fork after the last picture.

Convenient.

I'd give anything to see the front dropouts up close (cleverly omitted in the photos, I note). I wonder just how "custom made" that fork is.

-Kurt

methinks that anyone who is willing to drop big bills just for a frameset that old (knowing that a correct restoration will cost him/her 4x that much in the correct components) is probably living in a bubble...

but that's just me...

I'd give anything to see the front dropouts up close (cleverly omitted in the photos, I note). I wonder just how "custom made" that fork is.

-Kurt

I noticed that too. The builder of that fork should have his torch taken away from him.
-Gene-

Nice bikes!

I can't quite understand the current buzz on the Internationals, or the prices. Last year there was an almost complete, in the box, NOS International locally for $900. It was old original stock of the shop and back in the day they had taken off the brake calipers and the wheels to sell to customers. They were including some new calipers and a set of Shimano wheels. It sat on their floor for 6 months before someone from the US was up here on holidays and bought it. There are a LOT of Raleighs up here, kind of like your Schwinns.

vjp

and considering the one up now - albeit with a pretty nice looking paintjob - is not NOS, or even original for that matter ...

possibly it's worth his asking price to someone, but I'd be surprised.

[QUOTE=vjp;9974814]I can't quite understand the current buzz on the Internationals, or the prices. /QUOTE]
[slobbering Paean alert]
I know that the International has been vilified in this forum as one of the 5 most overrated, on grounds of poor workmanship mainly, I think. But the overall gestalt of the bike is quite charming, in my opinion. The combination of Nervex lugs and largely Campagnolo component group, classic chrome/paint scheme and the later graphics all bespeak "bikeness" at the top of the game in that era. I like the way they photograph, and the ones I've seen in person leave a lasting impression that other, more exalted, bikes just don't equal -- not even (omigod he's putting his foot in it now) the holy Paramount! Yes, it's not really a functional touring bike. But I think that it's an admirable contribution of Raleigh to the tradition of bicycle style.

and the ones I've seen in person leave a lasting impression that other, more exalted, bikes just don't equal -- not even (omigod he's putting his foot in it now) the holy Paramount! Yes, it's not really a functional touring bike. But I think that it's an admirable contribution of Raleigh to the tradition of bicycle style.

There is truth to that statement. The Internationals, particularly the copper examples, have a better chance of attracting the eye then the average Paramount; particularly in person. They're often more photogenic as well. The Vagner fork crown helps quite a bit, if you ask me.

In defense of the old Paramount though - ;) - any Raleigh with a dogleg fork bend doesn't stand a chance.

-Kurt

The thing about the International, back in the day, was to RIDE it. The thing was a golden chariot. A long day in the saddle was a joy.
Sorry, an old man's memories...

I noticed that too. The builder of that fork should have his torch taken away from him.
-Gene-

I see nothing to suggest anything that drastic.

I noticed that too. The builder of that fork should have his torch taken away from him.

Oh, nothing that bad - I'm simply suspect that it's a generic fork (a decent one, but generic nevertheless) painted to match the frame.

-Kurt

Oh, nothing that bad - I'm simply suspect that it's a generic fork (a decent one, but generic nevertheless) painted to match the frame.

-Kurt

Did you look at the drop outs? A dropout should not face backwards that much. A few degrees, maybe. But those things are terrible.
-Gene-

[QUOTE=vjp;9974814]I can't quite understand the current buzz on the Internationals, or the prices. /QUOTE]
[slobbering Paean alert]
I know that the International has been vilified in this forum as one of the 5 most overrated, on grounds of poor workmanship mainly, I think. But the overall gestalt of the bike is quite charming, in my opinion. The combination of Nervex lugs and largely Campagnolo component group, classic chrome/paint scheme and the later graphics all bespeak "bikeness" at the top of the game in that era. I like the way they photograph, and the ones I've seen in person leave a lasting impression that other, more exalted, bikes just don't equal -- not even (omigod he's putting his foot in it now) the holy Paramount! Yes, it's not really a functional touring bike. But I think that it's an admirable contribution of Raleigh to the tradition of bicycle style.

You nailed it right on the head. It's a beautiful bike.

Someday...

Did you look at the drop outs? A dropout should not face backwards that much.

:eek:

You won't see me riding that thing.


You nailed it right on the head. It's a beautiful bike.

Caleb's isn't. This one is:

http://www.jaysmarine.com/paramount_BM_4.jpg

-Kurt

Wrong thread for the post, sry.

Someone should do something about this guy, this Bianchi Specialissima has a replacement fork that he makes absolutely no mention of...also the headset isn't pressed in...again no mention!

http://cgi.ebay.com/bianchi-specialissima-campagnolo-beautiful-must-see_W0QQitemZ120488753481QQcmdZViewItemQQptZRoad_Bikes?hash=item1c0db07949&ssPageName=RSS:B:SHOP:US:101

In the interests of fair play, he does clearly state under the last picture that the fork is not original. Personally I'm with Kurt on this though. If he's going to the effort and cost of restoring these frames to sell for such huge prices, why not take the trouble to get the paint and decals correct?

In the interests of fair play, he does clearly state under the last picture that the fork is not original. Personally I'm with Kurt on this though. If he's going to the effort and cost of restoring these frames to sell for such huge prices, why not take the trouble to get the paint and decals correct?

Because he's a hack. See here: http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?529544-I-just-bought-a-bike

Because he's a hack. See here: http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?529544-I-just-bought-a-bike

Wow! Just read that other post again - wouldn't want to buy anything from that seller.

[QUOTE=Charles Wahl;9987558]

You nailed it right on the head. It's a beautiful bike.

Someday...






Caleb's isn't. This one is:


-Kurt

My reference was to copper Internationals in general, not Caleb's green botch job. Why anyone would refinish a green one is beyond me. Looks like a tarted up Varsity.

Looks like a tarted up Varsity.

:roflmao:

-Kurt

Kinda bizarre when you think about it. They look nice in the picture and the guy gets nearly 100% positive feedback. The post referenced says the bike received was screwed up in each and every conceivable way. But everyone else seems happy. The thread linked to mentions another negative feedback - from three years ago. In that case again the bike was screwed up in every possible aspect. But again - everyone else seems happy. I'm sure a lot of the egos around here would attribute that to anyone not being a regular here having no clue that the bike they bought was screwed up in every conceivable way. *shrug* take everything you read on the Internet with the proverbial grain of salt.......

Ever heard of "retaliatory feedback," GV27?

-Kurt

Kinda bizarre when you think about it. They look nice in the picture and the guy gets nearly 100% positive feedback. The post referenced says the bike received was screwed up in each and every conceivable way. But everyone else seems happy. The thread linked to mentions another negative feedback - from three years ago. In that case again the bike was screwed up in every possible aspect. But again - everyone else seems happy. I'm sure a lot of the egos around here would attribute that to anyone not being a regular here having no clue that the bike they bought was screwed up in every conceivable way. *shrug* take everything you read on the Internet with the proverbial grain of salt.......

You should buy all his bikes and test your theory. Do it...do it for science.

You should buy all his bikes and test your theory. Do it...do it for science.

Under what hypothesis? It'll either make Caleb rich, or GV27 a raving lunatic.

-Kurt

Under what hypothesis? It'll either make Caleb rich, or GV27 a raving lunatic.

-Kurt

Just funnin'. I don't recommend this strategy; though it would be good for science.

My guess is caleb's positive feedback is a combo of fear over retaliation (is this still possible under new ebay rules?) and the flipside of the idea that you get what you pay for: one must convince oneself against all appearances that one got what one paid for.

I think you guys just can't see his market. Some people couldn't give a good goddam for provenance, authenticity, and whether the colorways is off a tad.

They just want a nice, new looking vintage bike frame, just like they had thirty years ago.

You guys can't see that - you just see some vast wrong-wing conspiracy slapping the odd colors on beat up old frames... Come on, KMart shoppers, compare the price of this bike to a new steel, chrome-lugged frame. Then tell me it's a rip off.

Did you look at the drop outs? A dropout should not face backwards that much. A few degrees, maybe. But those things are terrible.
-Gene-

There is nothing unusual about those fork ends.

I think you guys just can't see his market. Some people couldn't give a good goddam for provenance, authenticity, and whether the colorways is off a tad.

How do you think they'll feel when they find out that orange Paramount doesn't have a complete set of eyelets, can't fit fenders, and has road geometry overlap instead of what one would expect of a touring bike (which is what he is promoting it to be)?


They just want a nice, new looking vintage bike frame, just like they had thirty years ago.

That International that he "restored" was nice and new looking before he had it stripped and repainted.


You guys can't see that - you just see some vast wrong-wing conspiracy slapping the odd colors on beat up old frames...

See above, RE: Raleigh International.

-Kurt

There is nothing unusual about those fork ends.

Look at this photo (of which I've leveled out), and tell me that those dropouts aren't tilting backwards:

http://www.jaysmarine.com/bianchi_level.jpg

-Kurt

Can someone pleases summarize for me? What exactly is the basis for the comlplaint(s)?

He has great photos of the product which also serve to accurately describe condition. He does not claim the paint is original. He was up front about the replaced fork. The decals and paint job may/may not be "restoration grade" but it appears (in his photos) they are well done.

Please do not take the above as an apology or defense of him. I am asking what I think are legitimate questions regarding the basis for the complaints. Personally, I think they are over-priced. I don't complain about that, it's his business, I just don't bid.

Can someone pleases summarize for me? What exactly is the basis for the comlplaint(s)?

He has great photos of the product which also serve to accurately describe condition. He does not claim the paint is original. He was up front about the replaced fork. The decals and paint job may/may not be "restoration grade" but it appears (in his photos) they are well done.

Please do not take the above as an apology or defense of him. I am asking what I think are legitimate questions regarding the basis for the complaints. Personally, I think they are over-priced. I don't complain about that, it's his business, I just don't bid.

:popcorn:grabs popcorn:

It is sort of like taking an early edition of a book, ripping out all the pages even though the text was still legible, printing off all the pages with a weird incorrect font and odd colors, then selling that book as a collector's item for 2x-10x what its considered "restored" value is.

Can someone pleases summarize for me? What exactly is the basis for the comlplaint(s)?

Read the preexisting threads and draw your own conclusions. No summary is available.

-Kurt

Look at this photo (of which I've leveled out), and tell me that those dropouts aren't tilting backwards:

-Kurt
Those dropouts scream out for lawyer lips

Those dropouts scream out for lawyer lips

Lawyer lips, Huffy clips, rubber bands, Schwinn tangs, and preferably, a framebuilder to re-braze them.

My guess is that they are dropouts intended for a curved fork, and therefore, were cast to fit into a fork blade with a significantly shallower angle then this straight-blade disaster. Some moron mated the straight-blade fork to said dropouts. Voila - instant crapola fork.

-Kurt

Look at this photo (of which I've leveled out), and tell me that those dropouts aren't tilting backwards:

http://www.jaysmarine.com/bianchi_level.jpg

-Kurt
That's what happens when you use fork ends designed for curved blades in a straight blade fork. The tab is in the wrong place for the dropout to open downward in a straight blade fork.

That's what happens when you use fork ends designed for curved blades in a straight blade fork. The tab is in the wrong place for the dropout to open downward in a straight blade fork.

^
A framebuilder has spoken. That should be enough proof for anyone who reads this thread.

-Kurt

I was hoping that John would bring his expertise to the discussion.