Classic & Vintage - Laughing at myself using friction shifting.

I took my '81 Miyata 1000 out for it's first real ride. Now my first real bike was a Schwinn Prelude with indexed shifting, so I never really had to learn to use friction shifters. I took the Miyata out for her shakedown ride and to figure out what finishing touches the bike needed. The Miyata has bar-end shifters and here I go trying to find the gears sweet spots on this bike set up with a granny gear and a half-step. I'm tweeking shifters on the left and right not knowing which one was making that awful grinding noise,lol. I started doing better as the miles ticked off, and I'm getting better at how to feather those Suntour shifters. I'm just glad no one from here was with me today, Y'all would have had a good laugh.

Still Learning
Mutt

I hear you. But after riding more, believe it or not, I actually like them now. I like to look at friction shifting as an art ;)

I'd never used friction shifting (or bar end shifters for that matter) until really recently either. After using the setup for a while, I actually kind of prefer it for road riding. I've even gotten to know the setup well enough that I know about how much I have to move the shifter to get the derailleur to kick over to the next gear without having to "tune" it.

Stick with it, you'll probably find yourself feeling the same way soon.

I like them too. It's much more "in tune" with the bike itself.

The last time I used friction shifting was in the eighties on my then new Schwinn World Sport. A really lost art that once you fine tune, it can help a lot (esp. because you can "jump" gears if necessary pretty fast). Pretty similar to driving a manual transmission car.

After a while, you'll know whether to adjust up or down just by the sound...

Pretty similar to driving a manual transmission car.

Very true - I was just thinking the same thing the other day while out riding. The other thing you get used to is the quiet precision of friction shifting after you've mastered it. Once you get back on an index shifting bike the "chlink" sound seems kind of weird.

That being said, it seems like friction shifting is a little pickier when it comes to grime in your drive train. Friction starts getting real old when ghost shifting comes into play.

That being said, it seems like friction shifting is a little pickier when it comes to grime in your drive train. Friction starts getting real old when ghost shifting comes into play.

Oh, yeah...
you gotta be fairly meticulous about cleaning and lubricating your drive train with friction... ghost shifting is one thing, a dropped and stuck chain at 35 mph downhill is another ;)

If it makes you feel any better, back in the 70's what you're describing was what EVERY new cyclist went through upon purchasing his first 10-speed. During the Presque Isle Bicycle Club Sunday rides, a couple of us would mill about up and down the line helping out newbies on the slight adjustments since they usually couldn't tell where the noises were coming from.

You know you're fully acclimated when you've got five different friction shifting bikes, and can hit any shift dead on, on any bike, on any day.

Ghost shifting? Never had the problem. You just get into the habit of slightly overshifting, then immediately backing off on the lever as soon as the shift is complete (if you're using SunTour rachets, one click is enough).

Friction shifting with a hyper glide freewheel is really really nice. Super smooth and really quiet. Friction shifting on an atom freewheel, that is when it becomes a skill!

From a maintenance point of view, friction shifting is great. Easy to adjust and no more worries about your new shifter's indexing matching the derailleur. Plus, it's so easy to trim the front derailleur.

I didn't realize how far behind I was. I've never owned a bike with indexed shifting. I did rent a 5 speed bike last Summer that had a poor quality twist grip indexed shifter.

If you really like friction shifting, find a set of retro-friction shifters or micro-ratcheting shifters.

All I've ever had was down tube friction shifters. As I'm not racing I don't need the shifter/brake lever jeesters. Son has them & I don't need that many moving parts. Mine does everything I need 'em to do at a fraction of the cost and complexity. I'm sure if I was 30 years younger I wouldn't be able to imagine how one could ride a bike with archaic components.

I also carry a 1911 and ride an airhead Beemer.

all my bikes have friction shifting, and i ride with headphones 100% of the time. i don't adjust by sound, only by feel (and sight). i trim the FD on almost every shift.

I also carry a 1911 and ride an airhead Beemer.

Which means you're totally conversant with the concept of simple, classic and effective. Give me those two, money for gas, and a couple of waterproof panniers, and I'll see you in San Francisco in four days.

all my bikes have friction shifting, and i ride with headphones 100% of the time. i don't adjust by sound, only by feel (and sight). i trim the FD on almost every shift.

You shouldn't have to do that much trimming, you can set it up to reduce that.

I like to look at friction shifting as an art ;)

Well if friction shifting is an art I'm still using crayons.

Mutt

Friction is fun when you get used to it. As others have said the new hyperglide pattern freewheels making shifting so easy. The main advantage is having a damn near silent front derailleur. Good luck. It gets to be a very rewarding experience.

+1 on the Friction Shift Love. :love:

Sometimes when riding, I don't bother to trim the derailleur into the sweet spot, especially when I know I'll be shifting again soon. It used to drive me nuts and I was really anal about it, but now I just shift the way I feel like. Sometimes clean, sometimes noisy.

Which means you're totally conversant with the concept of simple, classic and effective. Give me those two, money for gas, and a couple of waterproof panniers, and I'll see you in San Francisco in four days.

Vee Aye to Cee Aye in 4 days?

Darn...

Even better is to use a 10speed cassette with friction. The spacing is so narrow you never end up between gears. And it is truly dead silent, even more quiet than indexed. No clicking sounds.

Vee Aye to Cee Aye in 4 days?

Darn...

Tough ride, that one. From Raleigh to Colorado Springs in 2 days on a 1968 CB450 about killed me.

Tough ride, that one. From Raleigh to Colorado Springs in 2 days on a 1968 CB450 about killed me.

You can make it from Co to Ca in less than 24 hours. If you drive right. ;)


Also, I don't think anything shifts with a more satisfying "kla-dunk" than the changes between gears on 5 speed schwinn suburban. It's nothing short of amazing watching a Huret Alvit shifting chain between those huge gears, and the sound it makes too.

Tough ride, that one. From Raleigh to Colorado Springs in 2 days on a 1968 CB450 about killed me.

ok. THAT requires a sound track, so here you go:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqr5U78-e1w

but I thought that the OP did that with a non-motorized bike... but the "$ for gas" should have been a dead give away... That's a brutal ride and I am probably going to ride it next summer (PA to San Diego, southern route, sue me, I prefer desert to mountains) and I am budgeting 21 days with a support truck on my heels.

Vee Aye to Cee Aye in 4 days?

Darn...

Thinkin' about that brings back some memories of that '76 R90/6, the 6 gallon fuel tank, red, good set of Metzlers on the rims . . . . . . 30 years ago now. Had that one for the long haul, and a brand new '79 T140E Bonneville for local bar hoppin' and raising hell.

Getting back to friction shifters: Now, at the risk of sticking a jarring note into this lovefest, I do have to admit that, after 28 years out of cycling, and a massive re-education in less than a year once I got back; that brifters are about the only bit of modern technology that I actually consider a significant improvement over their 30 year old predecessors. Just about everything else, for a dedicated non-racer like me, is marginal improvement.

Just the same, thinking about what's currently hanging in the garage: 4 bikes with friction, either downtube or bar end; 1 indexed downtube, 3 brifters, 1 handlebar trigger (mtb), 2 indexed handlebar (both mtb), 1 single speed. Yeah, that about says it all . . . . . . . . . and the next 2-3 projects are either friction or downtube indexed. And given their non-repairability, there's no way I'll use brifters on a long-haul bagger.

I'm still learning the art. I'm glad other people are having a hard time as well...once the gears lands in place, boy does it feel good.

so out of curiosity how long did it take some of the newbies to get the hang of friction shifting? Im just finishing up my project bike and its the first bike I've ever had with them. I've always purchased new bikes. This is my first vintage bike, and first road bike period. Im stoked. I Just picked up a set of suntour downtubes for my 12 speed tourer/road bike. Should be a fun adventure. lol.

...

Getting back to friction shifters: Now, at the risk of sticking a jarring note into this lovefest, I do have to admit that, after 28 years out of cycling, and a massive re-education in less than a year once I got back; that brifters are about the only bit of modern technology that I actually consider a significant improvement over their 30 year old predecessors. Just about everything else, for a dedicated non-racer like me, is marginal improvement.

I agree, but dual-pivot brakes seem to be a real improvement,too.


... And given their non-repairability, there's no way I'll use brifters on a long-haul bagger.

Note that Campagnolo brifters are repairable.

I started out on mountain bikes, with indexed thumbshifters (friction front) and I can't stand brifters. On our tandem I actually removed the high zoot left Shimano brifter and use a barcon for front derailleur trim, and a 'real' brake lever on the left. Oh my goodness do 'real' brake levers work better than brifters for actual braking.

As for rear indexing or rear friction I really don't have a particular preference, but I hate friction mode on a mountain bike. To much going on and too technical of riding to constantly be fine tuning the thumbshifter.

On the road bikes (tandem, touring/BOBish, and road) I use downtube shifters but I mount 'em up on Kelly Take-Offs. On a Cannondale frames that measure 73cm and 66cm to the top of the seat collars you do not want to have to reach down to that massive downtube.

I think integrated controls are kind of stupid. Not only are they heavier, but more finicky, and they provide poorer brake control.

I'm suprised more people don't use Take-Offs. I think taking one hand off the bars to shift isn't particulary safe (with downtube shifters mounted on downtube), but with the Take-Offs your hands don't leave the handlebar.

Rivendell Bicycles also sells bar end pods allowing you to mount the downtube shifter as a bar con. I don't know why you wouldn't just use a regular bar end, maybe to mount colnago panto'd shifters perhaps?

I'm going to Mavic/Simplex retrofriction shifters on my Vitus Carbone 7 Plus restoration project.
The bike had DA SIS shifters that just felt cheap and goofy when set to click in the SIS mode. Didnt feel good to the hand when set to regular friction mode too. Got so used to the Spidel Retrofrictions on my PSV, that I don't want anything else on my bike. It's almost like my preference to manual transmission cars and aversion to automatics.

Chombi
84 Peugeot PSV
85(?) Vitus Carbone 7 Plus

all my bikes have friction shifting, and i ride with headphones 100% of the time.


I haven't done that since I was 16, when my left pedal bumped the right rear tire of a car.:notamused:,,,,BD

... Got so used to the Spidel Retrofrictions on my PSV, that I don't want anything else on my bike. It's almost like my preference to manual transmission cars and aversion to automatics.

Chombi


Actually, my favorite automotive transmissions are DSGs and automatics with manual controls, but my viewpoint is affected by personal experience, including a wife who didn't like shifting her father's 1964 VW beetle and a left knee which has been immobilized twice, for a 2-4 weeks per patellar dislocation incident. Both of my sons like their manual shift Audis, but have indexed shift on their bicycles. I am the opposite, with friction shift all the way on my bikes, but that's what I grew up with, along with American cars with automatics.

I grew up riding bikes with friction shifting, but I like indexed much better - even on my bikes with downtube and barend shifters.

For me, friction is great for non-competitive riding, and it is definitely easier to adjust and maintain. My road racing bike has indexed brifters with a 10-speed cassette, and it must be adjusted perfectly or it won't work properly. Every time I change wheels, it has to be re-adjusted. And then there is that special narrow chain that needs a new pin every time it is removed from the bike for cleaning, and must be installed perfectly with it's own special chain tool, or it will either bind up or break. Not to mention the incredible cost of the lever assembly if you ever need to replace it.

For casual riding/commuting - I've begun to really like the suntour ratchet-style friction shifter. It take's a little getting used to. I only have friction on my bikes - so this is 80's high tech to me...



http://i.ebayimg.com/24/!BcKokRgB2k~$(KGrHqUH-EUEqvihLyBFBKzSd(fTEw~~_12.JPG

I have several bikes and switching between them is always interesting. Each drive train has it's own feel between the lever; cables and housing condition; derailer type; condition & adjustment! It takes while after getting used to one - to get used to another but then I fall into place and get my technique down. Just like riding a bike! :innocent:

In this off-season I might rework my converted hybrid. I put drops on it last winter and just flipped the rapid fires upside down. they're kinda freaky looking but work quite well. I've been toying with the idea of friction bar end shifters. I'll probably miss the speed of the rapid fires

I'm suprised more people don't use Take-Offs. I think taking one hand off the bars to shift isn't particulary safe (with downtube shifters mounted on downtube), but with the Take-Offs your hands don't leave the handlebar.

Rivendell Bicycles also sells bar end pods allowing you to mount the downtube shifter as a bar con. I don't know why you wouldn't just use a regular bar end, maybe to mount colnago panto'd shifters perhaps?

When I rode my friend's miyata two summers ago, I really was afraid to take my hands of the bar. What's nice is on my cheap Raleigh, the shifters are actually on the head stem. Shifting is super easy and convenient.

Your shifters on the handlebars are pretty neat! Haven't seen that set up too much.

The only experience with index shifting for me is on my mountain bike. I like the twist grip but don't think the indexing is right.

How long does it take to get use to FS? It depends on what your drive train is. It tool quite a few miles when I first learned, but that was back in the 60's. Once I acclimated, it was automatic. I knew exactly how far to move the lever and it was done. like someone said, you can easily jump several cogs and if you know where to go, it is clean.

I recently changed a 6sp freewheel to a 7speed with hyperglide like design. What a huge improvement! I agree that the more cogs there are, the easier the shifting.

Taking your hands off the bar on a good bike is not an issue. In many ways, its like learning to friction shift. You need to get use to the bike first.

After a while you will learn to double shift with one hand.

I have friction shifting on almost every bike in my collection. I like the simplicity of set-up and the fact that everything is compatible with everything else. My bikes and parts generally come from the garbage, so it's nice to not have to buy something specific to build up a bike.

That said, I recently found a road bike with a complete and well-functioning SunTour Accushift group. I wasn't expecting it to work, nevermind work well. I like it and I'll leave it the way it is until something goes wrong.

I like the manual transmission comparison. Anyone ever ride vintage motor scooters (Vespa, Lambretta) with manual shifting? Much more fun than the modern "twist and go" dealies once you get the hang of it.

I'm a recent convert to friction too. I'm a bit spoiled w. retrofriction levers (campy), a modern slant parallelogram derailleur and a HG 7sp cassette. The shifting is very smooth and requires almost no force. With indexed levers the action can be quite stiff (although a bit less w. Shimano vs. Campy). I'm not too good yet in shifting on a bumpy downhill nor though multiple cogs, but it'll come :)

Actually, my favorite automotive transmissions are DSGs and automatics with manual controls, but my viewpoint is affected by personal experience, including a wife who didn't like shifting her father's 1964 VW beetle and a left knee which has been immobilized twice, for a 2-4 weeks per patellar dislocation incident. Both of my sons like their manual shift Audis, but have indexed shift on their bicycles. I am the opposite, with friction shift all the way on my bikes, but that's what I grew up with, along with American cars with automatics.

I've never figured out why people drive automatics (on cars). I learned to drive on a stick. I owned one car, as a kid that my dad bought, that was idiot-shift. Living in Colorado, I've always considered automatics dangerous. Its crazy in the mountains the way people allow their cars to accelerate while descending only to have to jam on the brakes. Every car I've ever bought was a manual. They are just so much safer as you have so much more control in the mountains. When there is ice and snow about 10,000 feet on the passes the last thing I'd want to be in is an automatic.

Anyone can drive the 250 miles over the Rocky Mountains, going over the passes, without touching their brakes once, as long as they are driving a manual. The funny thing is, that when all the cars are spun out in the snow banks, smashed into the guard rails, etc. no one ever stops to think, "Wow, those are all automatics that had to hit the brakes!"

Its amazing how many people in this country don't actually know how to drive. All they can do is steer the car and press a couple of pedals.

As that relates to bicycles, I think indexing front systems are idiotic. I don't care how many trim positions each ring gets. No front derailleur should be indexed, ever. A downtube shifter on a Kelly Take-Off, or a barend shifter and 'real' brake lever is lighter and provides superior shifting. Why have a boat anchor brifter that results in constant chain rub and parasitic drag. Why not just drag a small length of chain behind the bike while you ride?

For casual riding/commuting - I've begun to really like the suntour ratchet-style friction shifter. It take's a little getting used to. I only have friction on my bikes - so this is 80's high tech to me...

What is a ratchet style friction shifter? How does it function and how does it feel when compared to other friction shifters?

What is a ratchet style friction shifter? How does it function and how does it feel when compared to other friction shifters?

I second this question and will add another set of questions.

What is friction shifting, in the context of what is rachet style friction shifting, and Mavic retrofriction shifting, as compared to the obvious indexing shifting.

I have some Mavic 821 8 speed indexing levers, and I'm interested in getting some of the older Mavic retrofriction levers, but I don't really know what retrofriction is. :innocent:

I mean, what's more "retro" than friction? :twitchy:

What is a ratchet style friction shifter? How does it function and how does it feel when compared to other friction shifters?

With a normal friction shifter you get that smooth motion shifting either to lower or higher gears. Suntour ratchet shifters have the same smooth friction feel shifting to higher gears. When you shift to lower gears it has a spring loaded mechanism that clicks slightly into place as it goes. It's still friction and you still have to find the gear but some people prefer the clicking feel.

Here is the ratchet mechanism in a suntour bar end shifter:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3116/3205655433_d519239e77.jpg

gotta love it.. set the H and L on the derailleur and clamp the cable and you are good to go. I have some suntour sprints retro friction mounted to some barend pods. They are really nice and smooth.

Speaking of hyperglide freewheels, I just got one and put it on one of my friction shifting bikes. I'm not sure it's hyperglide, but it's Shimano, with twisted teeth. What's a good chain for this? I'm using an old Sedisport chain which is not worn out. The Sedisport was an excellent chain, in its day, but I'm figuring there was no meeting between Sedis and Shimano to work out optimum shifting between their products. :)

Not all friction shifters were created equal. I have Suntour Sprint downtube shifters on one of my bikes and they are really much better than the Campy friction shifters I have on another. They somehow center the RD about the cog automatically. Only when really off is there any grinding.

I am using Campagnolo downtube friction shifters with a 9 speed system now, and the only problem is the occasional ghost shift. You don't get the distinctive rattle like the old systems produced. I usually know when I'm a little off when I shift just by where the shift occurs relative to the shifting input. If the chain just barely shifts before I stop moving the lever, I know I didn't quite get it in gear and it may ghost shift. Sometimes I'm too lazy to reach down and fix that. I have index shifting on my mountain bike, but I have it set to friction instead. I'm about to switch over to brifters on my main bike after using friction for 30 years. The advantage is obvious to me, although I'm sure I'm going to have to get used to it.