"The 33"-Road Bike Racing - How long did it take you to upgrade from Cat4 to Cat3?

I'm trying to set a goal for the coming season.
I'm still a cat5 but by the end of January I will have completed the minimum number of mass starts required to upgrade. I've only done 3 crit races so far but my last race I placed somewhere in the top 15 out of 45, I still don't have enough sprinting power to place.

My goal I want to set is to upgrade from Cat4 to Cat3 by the end of the 2010 season. I'm wondering if this seems too far fetched or not for most riders.
I also joined my school's cycling team so I should have some guidance and support with training and nutrition and whatnot. I'd also be competing in just about every race of the season.

Depends.

I'm halfway to the 3's. Took me 3 weekends to get the points to get halfway there.

It took me a little over a year, but I got all my points in a 6 month period (August-February).

I'm trying to set a goal for the coming season.
I'm still a cat5 but by the end of January I will have completed the minimum number of mass starts required to upgrade. I've only done 3 crit races so far but my last race I placed somewhere in the top 15 out of 45, I still don't have enough sprinting power to place.

My goal I want to set is to upgrade from Cat4 to Cat3 by the end of the 2010 season. I'm wondering if this seems too far fetched or not for most riders.
I also joined my school's cycling team so I should have some guidance and support with training and nutrition and whatnot. I'd also be competing in just about every race of the season.

To a large degree getting to the 3s is more about figuring out how to race than anything else, so it's hard to say whether or not it is realistic for you or not. I was in a similar boat as you for the 2008 season, I finished my 10 races at the end of 2007 and started 2008 with upgrading to cat 3 as my goal. I didn't really get anywhere for most of the season until things started to click near the end of it. I don't think I had any huge fitness leap that suddenly allowed me to upgrade.

If you aren't already placing well in the 5s then it's going to be an uphill battle in the 4s. Things will get harder before they get easier. You just have to figure out your strengths and race to them. Hopefully things will click for you and you will be able to get your points in. It doesn't take too many good results to get 20 points.

On the road, I've technically been a Cat 4 for 6 years... that's 15 years with 9 years off in the middle.

Two seasons. I upgraded on top 10s, for what it's worth.

I became a 4, did my first two races in one day (as a 4) and got half way to my 3 upgrade. If my racing continues like that, I would say about 2 weekends worth of racing...LOL. We will see. With my luck lately, I will get fat or something and never place again.

I think that 3 months to a full season is a good average for a pretty good racer to upgrade.

My friend went from a 5 to a 2 in one month. Everyone is different.

If you're racing with the Cal Aggies and the DBC, I think you'll have no trouble upgrading as quickly as you like.

My friend went from a 5 to a 2 in one month. Everyone is different.

Yeah, well he's a freak, and he snapped my streak. I was doing really well until I came up against him at Murietta. He snapped up all the primes and the win in the crit. The crit was a crashfest though so I attacked from the gun in the circuit race and he pulled the field until I was caught :notamused:

That was his first cat 4 race... and my last.

Edit: That was March 14th and he was still a 3 at San Luis Rey on May 3rd, so it did take a little longer than one month (two, ha).

Yeah, well he's a freak, and he snapped my streak. I was doing really well until I came up against him at Murietta. He snapped up all the primes and the win in the crit. The crit was a crashfest though so I attacked from the gun in the circuit race and he pulled the field until I was caught :notamused:

That was his first cat 4 race... and my last.

Actually a local 4 (still a 4), beat him in the crit. He did however win the RR and the overall if I remember correctly.

LOL, yeah he is fast. He averaged over 360 watts for the 40k CBR TT. Pretty strong. Suprisingly his FTP is close to mine, but his 5min is just INSANE. I think he was around 6.5 watts per Kg or more. Pretty good for a 19 yr old kid!

He and my other friend stayed with me over Interbike week. He is a good kid with a lot of talent and SUPER pasionate about cycling. I hope he doesn't get burned out.

Honestly, I think I would have upgraded already if I lived in SoCal. It is hard to get enough races in living out here. Well at least I would have liked to think so. I'm slow and getting old. I better get on the stick!

To a large degree getting to the 3s is more about figuring out how to race than anything else, so it's hard to say whether or not it is realistic for you or not. I was in a similar boat as you for the 2008 season, I finished my 10 races at the end of 2007 and started 2008 with upgrading to cat 3 as my goal. I didn't really get anywhere for most of the season until things started to click near the end of it. I don't think I had any huge fitness leap that suddenly allowed me to upgrade.

If you aren't already placing well in the 5s then it's going to be an uphill battle in the 4s. Things will get harder before they get easier. You just have to figure out your strengths and race to them. Hopefully things will click for you and you will be able to get your points in. It doesn't take too many good results to get 20 points.

+1 Once it clicks you'll rack up points pretty quick. I strung together 6 straight top 10's this summer before I upgraded. I ended up getting 20 points at the sametime I got my tenth top 10. Get your ftp up, that'll take you farther than working on sprinting. You'll sprint better at the end if you've used fewer matches to get there. Also, think of the last 4 laps of a crit as 4 seperate races, you have to race each lap to keep position or you get swarmed.

Upgrading to 3 isn't all that hard. 3's racing is only a little bit faster but 3's (somewhat) know how to race.

It gets hard in the 1/2's since everyone knows how to race and everyone is fast.

In Colorado, I did my first race mid-June as a Cat 5, and I was a 3 at the end of August.

TBD. I've been racing since February and I'm halfway there. Probably 1-2 years.

then there's pcad, our perpetual four.

It has something to do with terrain as well. Most races in this area detonate when they hit the first big climb. Unless you are in there, then kiss any upgrade points goodbye. Pack finishes are nearly nonexistent.

I would estimate the necessary power to be around 4.5w/kg threshold in order to get points on a regular basis. Perhaps a bit more since the climbs tend to be in the ten minute range.

16 races to go from 5 to 3.

Raced 4's for one season... earned all the upgrade points towards the end of the season though.
I'm setting no goals to upgrade in '10 because there are still races where I'm in there but in no position to contest anything.

The 3's are kind of like Jr high... everyone has started developing but there is a broad spectrum betwen the low and high ends. There are guys that in every right could be 2's and there are those who barely have their feet wet out of the 4's.

It has something to do with terrain as well. Most races in this area detonate when they hit the first big climb. Unless you are in there, then kiss any upgrade points goodbye. Pack finishes are nearly nonexistent.

I would estimate the necessary power to be around 4.5w/kg threshold in order to get points on a regular basis. Perhaps a bit more since the climbs tend to be in the ten minute range.

to do what, upgrade to category 3?!? baloney.

fwiw, I was a 4 for a calender year, from July of my 1st year racing until July of my 2nd. I upgraded with points and was a 3 for while. now I'm a 2 training to get my ass handed to me on a regular basis.

to do what, upgrade to category 3?!? baloney.

fwiw, I was a 4 for a calender year, from July of my 1st year racing until July of my 2nd. I upgraded with points and was a 3 for while. now I'm a 2 training to get my ass handed to me on a regular basis.

come up here and see for yourself.

but i wouldnt get to race against the cat 4s throwing down >4.5 w/kg at ftp

4 races. no points.

but i wouldnt get to race against the cat 4s throwing down >4.5 w/kg at ftp

that is true. in fact, because of the same phenomenon that I speak of, your P123 race would be the smallest field size. It is common to see a P123 race with less than ten riders in the same event as a 4 race with over 50.

in the capital district RR this year I was definitely climbing at 4.2w/kg and I just watched them ride away from me. cat 4 race.

at the GVCC race at Bloomfield this year the winners were putting in times that I could not come close to matching on the hills. I was over 4 w/kg as well.

I could go on all day with this. We have very very few crits and almost nothing flat enough to have a true pack finish. If you want that kind of racing, you have to travel to NYC or places south.

It has something to do with terrain as well. Most races in this area detonate when they hit the first big climb. Unless you are in there, then kiss any upgrade points goodbye. Pack finishes are nearly nonexistent.

I would estimate the necessary power to be around 4.5w/kg threshold in order to get points on a regular basis. Perhaps a bit more since the climbs tend to be in the ten minute range.

only if you're too timid to travel. :innocent:

only if you're too timid to travel. :innocent:

as much as it might seem that it would benefit me to do so....


I am still better suited to the hills. All of my best results have been on hilly races thus far. The fact that they have been just short of good enough to get me more than a few upgrade points notwithstanding.

Actually I have traveled quite a bit for races. The flattest ones being near Lancaster. I wasn't racing cat 4 though. Masters was tougher (according to a racer I know who did the 4s).

About 4 months to get my points, but I stayed a 4 for the entire season, ~7 months or so.

4s used to be the 5s - the category all new racers get automatically.

It took 3 years to upgrade from 4s to 3s for me. I won 3 races out of 4 (2 in the fall, 2 in the spring) and an official upgraded me at the finish line of the third win (they could do that back then).

But man, I spent 2.5 years groveling, mainly because I was a Junior. Only when I started racing Senior races (as a Junior) I started doing well. It helps when a young Frank McCormack and an even younger Mark go and kill you every weekend. Suddenly racing against "regular" Senior racers seemed easy.

Then I spent 23 years in the 3s. hahahahaha. It's not as easy to upgrade from 3 to 2. You can't hide like I do - you have to be fit.

For the record I finished the Binghamton crit just once, and I couldn't move up enough to place in the top half of the Cat 3 (or 3-4?) crit. Around here that kind of an effort would have netted me a top 10 for sure. I was fit back then.

When I returned to the race, I got shelled pretty much immediately. I'm guessing, based on my numbers now, that I was at about 2.7-3 w/kg threshold, and doing 8 w/kg for the hill (20 seconds? Shorter?). Again, those numbers would net me top 10s around here, but any big hill, forget it.

cdr

I'll let you know.....



.....in a few years....

Took me two full seasons. I never raced as a cat 5 so I spent a lot of time figuring out how to race. I got to the point where I knew what I was doing and started getting regular top ten's. I wanted a win though so I pushed it a bit further and won a road race and a crit to take an omnium win and upgraded. Incidentally I won the first cat 3 race I did then I got hit by a car :(

It's different for every one though. It's interesting to see that most people do it in one year though. I still think it's important to get a win or at least several podium finishes before moving up. That way once you up grade you will still be highly competitive as a cat 3.

Started racing in March, was a 3 by April. Took the rest of the year off to mtb race, came back the next March and was a 2 by June, got my cat 1 a year later.

Started racing in March, was a 3 by April. Took the rest of the year off to mtb race, came back the next March and was a 2 by June, got my cat 1 a year later.

Another freak :p

that is true. in fact, because of the same phenomenon that I speak of, your P123 race would be the smallest field size. It is common to see a P123 race with less than ten riders in the same event as a 4 race with over 50.

in the capital district RR this year I was definitely climbing at 4.2w/kg and I just watched them ride away from me. cat 4 race.
at the GVCC race at Bloomfield this year the winners were putting in times that I could not come close to matching on the hills. I was over 4 w/kg as well.

I could go on all day with this. We have very very few crits and almost nothing flat enough to have a true pack finish. If you want that kind of racing, you have to travel to NYC or places south.

I think you're mixing apples with oranges. climbing at 4.2 w/kg and getting dropped on a 10 minute climb doing so does not mean that the competition has an ftp of 4.5 w/kg. it means that the racers who climbed away from you were climbing at a rate greater than 4.2 w/kg on that particular climb.

I think some of them do. My own one-hour power was 4.0 w/kg at the time. I am well aware of the relationship between one hour power and ten-minute or twenty-minute power. I am also well aware that most people (myself included) are able to climb at higher than threshold for shorter durations. This is my reasoning behind the stated estimates. I stand by what I said. I have also been witness to time trials involving the same people.

I don't believe in your narrow 'time limits' on these things.

Started racing in March, was a 3 by April. Took the rest of the year off to mtb race, came back the next March and was a 2 by June, got my cat 1 a year later.

That's insane, and in Colorado no less. Nice work!


---


This BTW is what you call a statistical outlier :)

I'm trying to set a goal for the coming season.
I'm still a cat5 but by the end of January I will have completed the minimum number of mass starts required to upgrade. I've only done 3 crit races so far but my last race I placed somewhere in the top 15 out of 45, I still don't have enough sprinting power to place.

My goal I want to set is to upgrade from Cat4 to Cat3 by the end of the 2010 season. I'm wondering if this seems too far fetched or not for most riders.


You won't know until you try. Also realize it varies by area and the difficulty of the competition.

However, if you're not getting top tens in Cat 5, you've got a way to go.

It will be difficult to upgrade on just experience in one season. So you'll need 10 top 10 Cat 4 finishes, or enough points (which will require more than just top ten to get in the points.)

Thus you're going to need to see an improvement in either your fitness, your tactics or your luck, to start placing Top 10 in the 4's, which will likely be a bit more difficult than top ten in the 5's, but not an order of magnitude difference.

So with a bit of a breakthrough its definitely doable, but you're going to need to see some imporvement.

I tried to drag it out as long as possible, but eventually my teammates started calling me out for sandbaggery.

Peer pressure's a beetch.

Started racing in March, was a 3 by April. Took the rest of the year off to mtb race, came back the next March and was a 2 by June, got my cat 1 a year later.

Cyborg

that is true. in fact, because of the same phenomenon that I speak of, your P123 race would be the smallest field size. It is common to see a P123 race with less than ten riders in the same event as a 4 race with over 50.

in the capital district RR this year I was definitely climbing at 4.2w/kg and I just watched them ride away from me. cat 4 race.

at the GVCC race at Bloomfield this year the winners were putting in times that I could not come close to matching on the hills. I was over 4 w/kg as well.

I could go on all day with this. We have very very few crits and almost nothing flat enough to have a true pack finish. If you want that kind of racing, you have to travel to NYC or places south.

I've had similar experiences in the 5's. My 1 hour NP for Tokeneke was just shy of 4 watts/kg and I placed 17th in a field of 50. Did the final 10' climb at 4.4 watts/kg.

This poll is telling me three things:

1) If you don't upgrade within 2 years, it's going to take you a long time.
2) Most (:D) people upgrade within that 2 years.
3) I have crappy athletic genes.

Local guy went from 5->2 last season.. but it wasn't me.

I'm not even a 4 yet, so I'll have to get back to this thread later (hopefully). I hope to make it to the 3's in at most two years, we'll see.

Hocam, what was your 1-hour AP back then, out of curiosity?

I'm not that far off from the points now. If my power numbers go up by a similar amount to what they did last season, then I should be able to get there.

Cyborg

I came to road racing with a Pro mtb license already, so it's not as impressive as it sounds. I already knew how to ride and train, just not how to race.

I did win my last cat 4 race, a road race, by 12 minutes though :)

It took me 2 season basically. When I took an emphasis off FTP, and put time into 3-8 minute power is when I did a lot better. I think someone with a slightly lower FTP and significantly more power in the short duration will win more in the North East/Mid Atlantic road races. I think you need the FTP, endurance, tempo (really mostly a mix of endurance and vo2 max if you think about how these races play out... except for maybe Hilltowns)to sit in until the end, and the medium duration, high end power to win it. So this year I will try to focus on this stuff. Any thoughts?

Local guy went from 5->2 last season.. but it wasn't me.

I'm not even a 4 yet, so I'll have to get back to this thread later (hopefully). I hope to make it to the 3's in at most two years, we'll see.

Hocam, what was your 1-hour AP back then, out of curiosity?

I'll have to check when I get home but I'm guessing around 240-250, NP 280, 71 kg.

I've only done 3 crit races so far but my last race I placed somewhere in the top 15 out of 45, I still don't have enough sprinting power to place.



A good sprint is always great to have, but it doesn't dictate whether you will win a crit or not as I am sure others on here will attest to. I have a terrible sprint but have been on the podium of every crit I raced in this yr but one (this is my first season on the bike and racing). If you build your FTP and 5min power, you can literally string out the field so much, when the last 3-4 laps come around there is nobody left to sprint against at the end. Usually it is only riders that have that 5min or strong FTP at the end you have to worry about.

I race in So Cal and I have seen guys kill it in crits with no sprint. They just get out there and beat the hell out of the field for 45min, and by the time the last laps come around, nobody has anything left in the tank and they solo in for the win!

IMHO, there is nothing cooler than winning a crit like that ^^!!!:thumb:

It took me 2 season basically. When I took an emphasis off FTP, and put time into 3-8 minute power is when I did a lot better. I think someone with a slightly lower FTP and significantly more power in the short duration will win more in the North East/Mid Atlantic road races. I think you need the FTP, endurance, tempo (really mostly a mix of endurance and vo2 max if you think about how these races play out... except for maybe Hilltowns)to sit in until the end, and the medium duration, high end power to win it. So this year I will try to focus on this stuff. Any thoughts?

Yeah, I win crits on my 1' power, not my FTP.

half a season to a 3
full season to a 2

It took me 2 season basically. When I took an emphasis off FTP, and put time into 3-8 minute power is when I did a lot better. I think someone with a slightly lower FTP and significantly more power in the short duration will win more in the North East/Mid Atlantic road races. I think you need the FTP, endurance, tempo (really mostly a mix of endurance and vo2 max if you think about how these races play out... except for maybe Hilltowns)to sit in until the end, and the medium duration, high end power to win it. So this year I will try to focus on this stuff. Any thoughts?

wouldnt any good training program would include a mixture of endurance miles, ftp work, vo2max work, and high end stuff? it would just depend on the time of the year.

everyone responds differently to training stimuli, but I dont think i'd do very well by pounding out a bunch of vo2max intervals over the next 6 weeks, unless my goal was to be a christmas group ride hero and otb when racing starts in march/april.

This poll is telling me three things:

1) If you don't upgrade within 2 years, it's going to take you a long time.
2) Most (:D) people upgrade within that 2 years.
3) I have crappy athletic genes.


4) people who didn't upgrade within 2 years aren't posting to this thread.