"The 33"-Road Bike Racing - Any tricks to max out cadence while out of the saddle during a sprint/attack?

Haven't raced anything but spirited group rides and training crits.
Still having trouble making that transition when you want to jump/pound on the pedals out of the saddle and then spin up as high as possible back IN the saddle.

Also find that I can't match an attack (by hopping out of the saddle) to catch someone's wheel. I find I am better off just increasing my cadence/speed and trying to draw them back in.

Best cadence I am getting out of the saddle is about 90 (but it's not a very smooth 90) The gearing is not the issue (52x12) as I can raise that when I am back in the saddle.

Been riding for a year and only in the past couple months have I been able to get a cadence above 125. (for the longest time, my pedal stroke was maxed @100, then 110 and now I have gotten above 125 on occasion and still feel smooth.

Haven't raced anything but spirited group rides and training crits.
Still having trouble making that transition when you want to jump/pound on the pedals out of the saddle and then spin up as high as possible back IN the saddle.

Also find that I can't match an attack (by hopping out of the saddle) to catch someone's wheel. I find I am better off just increasing my cadence/speed and trying to draw them back in.

Best cadence I am getting out of the saddle is about 90 (but it's not a very smooth 90) The gearing is not the issue (52x12) as I can raise that when I am back in the saddle.

Been riding for a year and only in the past couple months have I been able to get a cadence above 125. (for the longest time, my pedal stroke was maxed @100, then 110 and now I have gotten above 125 on occasion and still feel smooth.

Get into the 39x17 and sprint for all you're worth.

In my racing years, I won many a sprint....assuming you are sprinting for a city limits sign on the flat, you would shift up to a bigger gear....jump out of the saddle to accelerate the big gear up to about 100 or 110 rpm and then sit down and spin up the rpms. If it is a sprint from a shorter distance out you might stay out of the saddle the whole time. When you first get out of the saddle you are pulling with your arms, and the bike is going side to side....watch some youtube videos of TDF sprints and you see how much the back end of the bike is flexing and moving....lots of torque from the legs and the arms

spin drills (http://www.trifuel.com/triathlon/bike/indoor-trainer-skill-drills-for-improved-pedaling-000616.php)

Try this when you think about your spin: Imagine that you're trying to scuff gum off your shoe rather than pound the pedal down.

Don't ask for further explanation; just go and try it. Report your findings.

try this when you think about your spin: Imagine that you're trying to scuff gum off your shoe rather than pound the pedal down.

Don't ask for further explanation; just go and try it. Report your findings.


qft

Spin ups. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qpkgx_6rk8)

Common mistake people make when matching an acceleration is to assume you need to increase torque. You don't need to go to a 53x12. Quite the opposite. That would be like trying to accelerate onto the freeway from 20mph by shifting your civic into 5th gear. No acceleration. Try shifting down. High cadence might cause your torque to be less (which is better for repeats) but since POWER is a function of cadence and torque you will find that you accelerate better and faster, plus you will be able to repeat.

I hate to say practice practice practice, but it is the truth. Stop mashing the big gears. I would recommend form sprints, spin ups, and/or fixie work with a very light gear for you. Stay out of the big ring at all costs in training for it, and try shifting to a BIGGER cog when you want to accelerate.

Huge difference.

Read and really digest what the doc wrote. There's really good info there.

Spin ups. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qpkgx_6rk8)

Common mistake people make when matching an acceleration is to assume you need to increase torque. You don't need to go to a 53x12. Quite the opposite. That would be like trying to accelerate onto the freeway from 20mph by shifting your civic into 5th gear. No acceleration. Try shifting down. High cadence might cause your torque to be less (which is better for repeats) but since POWER is a function of cadence and torque you will find that you accelerate better and faster, plus you will be able to repeat.

I hate to say practice practice practice, but it is the truth. Stop mashing the big gears. I would recommend form sprints, spin ups, and/or fixie work with a very light gear for you. Stay out of the big ring at all costs in training for it, and try shifting to a BIGGER cog when you want to accelerate.

Huge difference.

and another one - a big QFT
during this off season I'm trying to use my big ring as little as possible - even trying to do group rides entirely in the small ring - it is worth it during the season when spinning @115 feels like a perfectly normal place to start spinning up for an attack

Long one.

While I agree that higher rpms gives you more power (torque x rpm = hp, kinda sorta), when I'm tired I can't spin. Since I'm tired once a race gets, oh, like 20 minutes old, this means I have to do something other than spin like mad when I sprint.

Plus, if you're spinning like mad, you're relatively unstable (relative to 90-110 rpm). You're unable to adapt to an unexpected circumstance. For example, if I'm spinning at 200 rpm and I need to suddenly swerve to avoid a big crash, it's harder to do so than at 80 or 90 rpm. Or say someone really leans hard into me because they want me to move over. If I'm spinning at 200 rpm I'll be much less stable than at even 110-120 rpm.

Just to set down some numbers, I'm comfy spinning at 100-110 rpms consistently when using 170 cranks. My TTs and FTP tests tend to average about 110-112 rpms until I blow, then I drop to something like 70-80 rpms. On 175 cranks, take about 15-20 rpms off the numbers. I sprint at rpms anywhere from 70 to 120+, and I've won and lost sprints at all sorts of rpms. I don't think I won one at 70 rpms, but I did pass a bunch of people.

Anyway...

Therefore, although it's good to do various spin drills, and it's good to be comfy at higher rpms, it's not necessarily what you want to do in a race or group riding situation.

When you respond to an attack, you need to increase power. Like mentioned before, you can get power in two different ways. Like automobile engines, you can do it using higher torque (somewhat lower rpms) or lower torque (somewhat higher rpms).

I think that I'm a wheezing diesel compared to Doc, therefore I can't afford to spin up too much - if I do, I explode. Instead, I need to take advantage of my torque.

Ultimately you want max out power, not necessarily max out cadence. Yes, you need to max out power to spin a 53x12 at 125 rpm. But that's pretty serious speed. I don't have my handy dandy cadence gear spreadsheet in front of me but I think it's north of 40 mph. If that's what it takes to respond to a "non-racing" attack (group rides and training crits), you're training with some pretty fast riders.

What I find newer racers do (i.e. those that are fit but haven't been racing for many years, so don't have some of the cycling musculature built up yet) is spin more than necessary. They lack the ultimate torque to turn over the big gears, so they naturally compensate by spinning lower gears higher. It's like my low-torque winter car - I have to rev the heck out of it to get it going "fun", with the car responding, sort of, once I hit 3-4k rpm. My other car, a bit more "conditioned", can accelerate firmly from 1200 rpm (it has twice the torque at 1200 rpm as my other car does max).

However, as racers acclimate to the somewhat unnatural cycling motion, they tend to build up that missing power, developing stronger glutes, hamstrings, quads, lower back, etc. They also get better at using their upper body to counteract the pushing-down-with-more-than-body-weight downstrokes, so they can coordinate multiple downstrokes of immense power (relatively speaking).

As an illustration of this, ride no-handed on a trainer (or if you're skilled, rollers or the road - I'm not skilled enough to do this, at least the following part). Pedal as hard as you can, no handed. You'll lift yourself out of the saddle, even if it's just slightly. When you can anchor your body securely at high rpms against that "body float", you're doing well.

So, with the original situation - accelerate out of the saddle initially, then keep accelerating while sitting - this is what happens.

First, when you get out of the saddle, you increase your wind resistance. However, you can really anchor your body securely (because you're pulling on the bars), giving you a stable platform from which you can really put out a lot of lower-rpm torque. You accelerate until you start to max out your speed/cadence.

Then you sit, reducing your wind profile. You accelerate a bit simply from that, if you really have a lower wind profile. If you can keep accelerating, great. If not, you maintain speed. I think that it's very possible I'm more aero sprinting out of the saddle than I am sitting, since I'm close to my aero tuck while sprinting (way over the bars). I don't know definitively, but my point is that it's possible that sprinting in the saddle is not more aero than standing, esp for shorter people like me.

For me that "stage one" out of saddle acceleration is probably about 110-120 rpms max, and I like to jump (apparently, based on power data where ideal jump rpm = max instant power) from 90-100 rpm. Therefore I accelerate maybe 2 mph (8 or so rpm) to 5 mph (20 rpm) in one gear.

If I start to spin out, I stay standing and shift up again. A typical sprint is two shifts, unless I jump in a huge gear or very, very late (like 30-40 meters from the line due to being boxed in). Then it may be just one shift, or, in extreme cases, I jump in my biggest gear and therefore can't shift.

Note: I rarely contest downhill sprints since my only strength, my jump, is practically useless in such sprints. Most of the sprints I contest are uphill, with some flat ones that suit me (since they come off of a downhill last turn a couple hundred meters from the finish). So when I say jump in my biggest gear, it usually means on an uphill finish since that's when I tend to lean towards lower rpms - on flat sprints I tend to sprint in too low a gear. I've also shifted up and down in a sprint, as the terrain changes and I realize I have something left in my legs. Note over.

When I start to lose that acceleration, I usually just keep sprinting out of the saddle. I've hit my max speeds while out of the saddle, so that's what I do. I've experimented, maybe 1000 plus sprints in practice. I'm figuring 15 weeks of sprints (3-4 months), 15 sprints every Tues (leading out every other sprint, so not 30+ sprints), for 5-6 years, and that's just for SUNY Purchase sprints. Then maybe 100 Route 120 sprints at Gimbles, and some crazy number of sprints on my own. I've figured out what works for me, and I'm willing to try outlandish things to make sure they don't work.

If I sit it means I'm dead, can't accelerate, and am hanging on for dear life. Usually it means I've overestimated my sprint, or I've gone from way far out because I thought it would suit me tactically (jump, get a gap, and hold gap to the line). It's very unusual for me to do that, but I've done it in very unusual situations.

If I'm gear limited (like on the track), I have to sit, because I'm not coordinated enough (or practiced enough) to sprint at, say, 160 rpm in a gear while standing and trying to go around only slightly banked curves. So I sit and hit maybe 130 rpm. I haven't sprinted enough on the track to know what my limitations are, but for now it's 34 mph in a 90 inch gear (50x15). Compared to my road sprinting, I've done maybe 25 sprints on the track, and I can't say I've felt like I've done a good effort on any of them - jump too late, can't hold the lower lines on the track, haven't practiced seated sprinting, etc etc etc.

How do you increase your top speed? This is gear independent, i.e. it's not focusing on gearing, it's focusing on top speed and having you experiment with what works for you.

http://sprinterdellacasa.blogspot.com/2007/02/how-to-working-on-sprinting.html

Basically you find a spot that allows you to lead yourself out for a sprint (i.e. a downhill) followed by a sprint friendly straight. Use it as your sprint scale, and work on going as fast as possible. I find that I go fastest by sprinting until I can hit a certain rpm in a gear, then trying the next highest gear. Usually my sprints will be something like this:
1. Jump in a 14, start to lose the sensation of the pedals under you, go to the 13, start to spin it out but you may have something left in your legs, then 12, feel totally bogged down in that last gear. Go around and try again.
2. Jump in 14, then the 13, and when I'm out of the saddle, sprinting my brains out, and I think that I'm pretty well maxed out in the 13, try and pedal faster (not harder; think faster). Go around again.
3. If the 13 worked, then try and sprint until I feel like I'm pedaling faster than I can apply power efficiently. Usually I shift, i.e. into the 12, and get bogged down. Go around and try again. Repeat until legs are fried and the 13 is getting hard to move.

After doing that a few times, it's clear that (in this example) the 13 is good, the 12 is too high. So my goal is to get a 12.5 gear (one that's between the 12 and 13). You can do this because a 1 tooth jump at the high end is usually 10+ gear inches, but if you go 2 teeth smaller on your chainring, it's about a 5% decrease.

Therefore I go home, rummage through my chainrings, and put on a chainring that's about 2-3 teeth smaller (use the same cogs) or larger (use one cog larger) than my big chainring. So I put a 51 on, or a 55.

If it's a 51, I use the same cogs, and usually I can go in the 12 (because now it's a 12.5). Then I work until I want to shift to the 11, but then I bog, then I go back to my normal chainring, and usually I can go in the 12.

If I go to a bigger ring (typically 54, but I'm saving a 55 for some special occasion), then I add a tooth to the above cogs, and usually I can do the 12 equivalent (i.e. 55x13, or kinda sort like a 53x12.5). Then I work on doing the 55x12, in this case.

You can start with a 51 chainring, and when you get to a trouble gear, go 53 (plus 1 cog), or go from a 52 to 54/55.

At the same time, don't be afraid to try something outrageous.

When I started getting into riding, I wanted to know what I "needed" to do to race well. I asked a friend of mine what gear he'd use in a race going up Wolfpit Road in Wilton - it's a steep as heck road, at least one pitch.

49x14 (53x15 equivalent)

What??? I didn't believe him. I'd be in trouble going up in my "fast climbing gear" of 34x21. Luckily, since we had 4 of 7 classes together, I pestered him non-stop for a few months. Then it finally got warm enough to ride outside. I rode the hill in the big ring (48x19) for the first time in my life. Then the 48x17. 48x15. And I did each gear twice to make sure it wasn't beginner's luck.

I finally collapsed halfway up in a 48x14, but I'd done so many repeats my legs were fried.

Story here:
http://sprinterdellacasa.blogspot.com/2007/05/story-bloomin-metric-and-me.html

After that epiphany (I was 14 years old), whenever I felt like I needed to ramp up my game a bit, I'd do some stupid big gear attack on group rides. Any hill under 400 meters was eligible game, and I'd attack up these things in a 53x13 or 12. I'd blow up spectacularly of course, but the point is that I'd try and remind myself that, look, you need to keep an open mind, you need to try weird things, because if you don't, you start limiting yourself.

(This whole open mind thing doesn't work for me for my ftp - no matter what I think is possible "Hell, I'll just go and do 400 watts, I know I can" I just explode a minute or two into my alleged 20 minute effort. So my theory here has individual limitations. But you get the gist of the idea.)

Hope this helps,
cdr

One trick to get some more RPMs is to lock your ankles at like 95 degrees or so (toes very slightly pointed). Then just don't let that angle change. You should be able to find another 10 or 20 rpm.

When I attack (I'm trying to remember the last time I did), I usually start out at about 90 rpm--it allows me to accelerate fast (usually up to 125+) and then shift back down such that I'm back at 90 rpm. I rarely ever touch anything higher than my 52x13, unless I'm going downhill.

Thank you for all the info.
I came back from a morning 50mile group ride, read all the posts (CarpeDiem, I read yours a few times to try to make it all "sink-in") and went out for another 20miles trying to incorporate a few of the tips.
Will be back to read this again just before my next ride.

Thanx again for all the comments. (fwiw, small group today. The two known sprinters on the ride said I definitely should be riding two gears UP at this time of year. That I have to "teach" my muscles to sustain a higher cadence. For the first time ever, I am averaging 78-80rpm over the course of a group ride (but when we are in known breakaway locations and tiny So. Jersey 2-3degree grades, I am up above 90). When I first started a year ago, I was maybe making 70. (and getting dropped a lot after a pull and not "catching" that last wheel as I drifted back)

okay i have been following this thread and ahve a few questions;

i have been doing a sprint intervals on a square shaped route. on the flat and longest side i would gear to 52/13 and give it the gusto, really hard. corner hard and then use the other 3/4 of the 1.6 miles route to recover for the next "sprint." i figured this would be good training for a higher average speed in crits as well as develope my ability to handle spikes in heart rate and LA buildup. i have judged progress based off of 1.) average speed over x amount of laps, simple enough and 2.) how i felt along the way; with the idea being if i am sprint haard and fast i am getting the average speed up and forcing myself to recover fast so i can keep that spped up around the rest of the track. using that methodology i start with an ave. of 18.5-19mph and noe (2.5 weeks of this 4-5 times a week i am now at 21-21.5mph) so i though i was doing well...

then i read this and it seems that i should be shifting down and sspinning faster, seemed conterintuitive but most things are...

so i went out today and spin at a much higher cadence, near 100, though to do this this forced me off the 52 and onto the 42 ring. thus my average speed was much lower on the ride. tried again doing two sprints per lap and still average speed much lower 18.5-19. i can absolutely understand and agree that the faster cadence and spooling gives me a much higher delta of accelaration than mashing the 52-13, though it does give me a lower top end speed.

what should my benchmarks and goals be when doing sprint intervals at the much higher cadence? how do i track the progess? obviously average mph over the ride is not the way. is this jsut another story of mashers versus spinners? or are there hard and fast rules to this stuff?

***note: i am NO sprinter. 23 yrs old 120 lbs, 8% body fat, and small thighs! so i am inherently a climber, but i want to learn explosive power and up the pain threshold

thanks for ANY advice

If you want to up the pain threshold, then go climb. If it doesn't hurt, then go harder.

Pretty simple, really.

Also, were you using a little hill to get up towards leadout speed, and then gunning it?

Listen, there's really not too much to sprint training. Go out and pick a gear that's right, and then when you pick that you should go one gear easier. The go do some repeats and track your performance.

When it comes to racing and sprinting, your sprint power matters about as much as your timing and tactics.

Oh and pulling up on your bars is good for 100-200W if you do it right. That's what sprint training is for: to get your system to synergize and work together. That's where the watts come from.

qft



and another one - a big QFT
during this off season I'm trying to use my big ring as little as possible - even trying to do group rides entirely in the small ring - it is worth it during the season when spinning @115 feels like a perfectly normal place to start spinning up for an attack

So we're all just ignoring this guy now? I didn't get the memo.

A few things.

1. Experiment with gearing. A good exercise is to alternate sprints between a 53x15 and 53x13. At first the 13 will seem harder because of the higher peak torque, but later the 15 will seem harder as your legs refuse to spin up.

2. Shift during your sprint. When sprinting on my own, from a rolling start (15-20 mph), I'll usually jump in a 53x15, maybe 53x17. I only get a couple pedal strokes before I shift up, so on and so forth.

Shifting during sprints requires that you have your shifters in a spot where you can reach them while sprinting. My brifters are situated so that I can shift up or down while I'm sprinting:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_TbmplkIYLx8/R7tKhxISzLI/AAAAAAAAAaQ/uY0rDkMM910/s320/100_2938.JPG

Jump in a lower gear and shift up as you start feeling like the pedals are moving faster than your feet (the pedals will feel like they're dropping out from under your feet). This shift/sprint would be a different drill from the alternating gear sprint thing.

3. Focus on peak speed, not average speed. When I work on sprints I typically average 12-15 mph for a ride. I usually go 5-10 mph between sprints after the first few. When I work on more ftp type stuff, I'll go faster. During sprint work I'll carefully note my top speeds and cadence if possible (in the old days - now I just let the SRM record it). If you have max speed on your cyclo-computer reset it after each sprint.

hope this helps,
cdr

I guess im a little different with my sprints.
Before i getting ready to sprint, im usually in the 110-120rpm zone. thats my comfortable cadence at speeds above 20mph. and as soon as theres an attack or sprint i shift down to a bigger cog which brings me back to around 95rpms and accelerate and spin up to rpms as high as 130 and then shift down one more time to finish off the sprint. I've never gone to the last 2 or maybe even 3rd smallest cogs in a sprint, spinning is winning.

So we're all just ignoring this guy now? I didn't get the memo.

It was lost betwixt CDR's walls of text.

<3

When CDR was in elementary school, his teacher told the class to write a one page summary on their summer vacation.

His was single spaced, curb to curb, and a font size around 8 (and he still never got past June).

I love CDR's posts. There's few people who I deem worthwhile for reading a page of post - but CDR's one of them. Keep em coming.

I love CDR's posts. There's few people who I deem worthwhile for reading a page of post - but CDR's one of them. Keep em coming.

Couldn't agree more!

When CDR was in elementary school, his teacher told the class to write a one page summary on their summer vacation.

His was single spaced, curb to curb, and a font size around 8 (and he still never got past June).

:roflmao2:

good stuff though.

and another one - a big QFT
during this off season I'm trying to use my big ring as little as possible - even trying to do group rides entirely in the small ring - it is worth it during the season when spinning @115 feels like a perfectly normal place to start spinning up for an attack

Yup, New Britain CT used to have a spring series and sometimes I'd do the A race in the small ring for practice until the last lap. (I may have had a 42t in those days)

thanks cdr,

Hmm. Read more and realized some things:
My gears could use adjustment. I have a habit of soft pedaling for a stroke each time I shift.
Oh other observation, I can attain 38mph .... AFTER being pulled along in a draft to 36 and then popping outside for a moment, but on my own, unless I am starting with a decline, getting above 30 is a LOT of work and I can't reach 33.

Also think I need new handlebars - compact (I've pretty much known that for a while)

One trick I use to simulate that last 50m in a race, is to descend a hill with an easy effort and sprint in the trough, where it's mostly flat (and I'm doing 25-35mph).

One trick to get some more RPMs is to lock your ankles at like 95 degrees or so (toes very slightly pointed). Then just don't let that angle change. You should be able to find another 10 or 20 rpm.

The first time I heard this, I thought, "Say what?" because it seemed odd. Trying it out and talking it over with teammates, I realized that by toeing down, you raise your heels, which a similar effect as lowering your saddle, which in turn makes higher cadences easier.

True. It also takes one neuromuscular event out of your to-do list for each pedal stroke.

Spin ups. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qpkgx_6rk8)

Common mistake people make when matching an acceleration is to assume you need to increase torque. You don't need to go to a 53x12. Quite the opposite. That would be like trying to accelerate onto the freeway from 20mph by shifting your civic into 5th gear. No acceleration. Try shifting down. High cadence might cause your torque to be less (which is better for repeats) but since POWER is a function of cadence and torque you will find that you accelerate better and faster, plus you will be able to repeat.

I hate to say practice practice practice, but it is the truth. Stop mashing the big gears. I would recommend form sprints, spin ups, and/or fixie work with a very light gear for you. Stay out of the big ring at all costs in training for it, and try shifting to a BIGGER cog when you want to accelerate.

Huge difference.

Except don't do them the as shown in that youtube video. The point of these drills isn't to reach a max rpm, but to reach the highest rpm you can sustain *without bouncing*. That guy is bouncing even at lower RPM's and kind of missing the point of the exercise.

The point ...to reach the highest rpm you can sustain *without bouncing*. That guy is bouncing even at lower RPM's and kind of missing the point of the exercise.

Finally had a chance to watch the video. 140 doesn't seem all that fast when watching it (yet I have never attained that crank speed).
Also it seems like he has almost no tension on the chain/crank. I wonder if that is causing him to "bounce". I cannot reach my max cadence (~125) if riding in much too easy a gear. (I also then start to bounce)

Best spinning speeds I ever saw was a rider demoing that new style roller by eMotion that moved/shifted inside a larger platform. He was hitting 200rpm and while his foot/leg speed was blazing, his upper body was smooth and relaxed. (also he would take his hands off the bars during some super fast spins). Exceptional balance and riding technique.

Ok Clip but not the one I was referring to.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xaYDZ-RSOTA

Finally had a chance to watch the video. 140 doesn't seem all that fast when watching it (yet I have never attained that crank speed).
Also it seems like he has almost no tension on the chain/crank. I wonder if that is causing him to "bounce". I cannot reach my max cadence (~125) if riding in much too easy a gear. (I also then start to bounce)

Best spinning speeds I ever saw was a rider demoing that new style roller* that moved/shifted inside a larger platform. He was hitting 200rpm and while his foot/leg speed was blazing, his upper body was smooth and relaxed. (also he would take his hands off the bars during some super fast spins)


*Cannot recall the name of the mfr or roller.

You've got to get that max rpm up. Not that you need to blow through 125 in a sprint, but you don't want your ceiling that low.

Try sprinting downhill in a low gear. You should be able to get some steady resistance progression from the wind, and still be able to get the high rpm. Try staying in contact with a 39-23. Don't worry about sustaining it initially, just stab at it until you get there.

Trainer is a good way to do max rpm drills. You can be totally out of control without falling over or driving into a tree. On the road I sprint drill at the end of a 10 minute interval. Big gear, cadence around 100, speed sould be around 25 depending on conditions. Shift down a cple of gears and jump for all you're worth. If you rev out in 200 meters you started in the wrong gear. Experiment see what works for you.

Ironically I missed all these comments because I was, of all things, distracted by the scrolling down past my own posts.


When CDR was in elementary school, his teacher told the class to write a one page summary on their summer vacation.

His was single spaced, curb to curb, and a font size around 8 (and he still never got past June).

lol. Esp since school got out in June :)


Yup, New Britain CT used to have a spring series and sometimes I'd do the A race in the small ring for practice until the last lap. (I may have had a 42t in those days)

This is the course where I errantly raced for most of the race in the small ring. I didn't have enough time to get used to the big gear and flubbed the sprint. It was a bit critical since I had to beat this other guy for the series win, and he beat me. It was actually proper karma because I was accidentally placed first the prior week, when in fact I stopped at the bell to watch the sprint. So it was appropriate that Tom H womped me in the sprint.


I guess im a little different with my sprints.
Before i getting ready to sprint, im usually in the 110-120rpm zone. thats my comfortable cadence at speeds above 20mph. and as soon as theres an attack or sprint i shift down to a bigger cog which brings me back to around 95rpms and accelerate and spin up to rpms as high as 130 and then shift down one more time to finish off the sprint. I've never gone to the last 2 or maybe even 3rd smallest cogs in a sprint, spinning is winning.

One of the key things to do here is to try and shift so that you end up at your most powerful cadence range. In other words, if you accelerate best from 90-110 rpm, you want your shift to put you back at the beginning of the range (or close to it). This theory applies with cars too - you don't want to shift at some arbitrary rpm if it dumps you below your power range in the next gear.

This means calculating how fast you go in each gear, and seeing if you can't overlap your gears nicely so that 110 in one gear means 90 in the next. Or 108 in one is 92 in another, or down to 89, whatever the case may be. As long as you end up at your ultimate jump cadence after the shift, you're good.

Bigger chainrings means less of a gap between shift. Going from a 50x12 to a 50x11 is a 10.2" jump. A 53x13 to a 53x12 is 9.2". (Those are the comparable gears, sort of). One of the reasons to use big rings in a TT is not for the huge top end gears, but to get the smaller jumps in the middle gears. At the limit, a couple gear inches is a big deal. In a crit, too, bigger rings gives you that little bit of an assist in that your gears are closer together, at least in the usable range (where your cassette increments in single teeth).


On spin ups, or max rpm sprints. I find that if I push past my smooth point, and bounce and whatever, then I ease back, that's when I can spin more smoothly at higher rpms. It's like driving a car on the highway. You're in a 65 zone, going 75 with everyone else then you exit onto a highway where the speed limit is 55. Now, even at 65, it feels like you're crawling. And 55, forget it.

So, likewise, you can do this with your cadence. Do something astonishingly high, something that requires every fiber of muscle to hit. Be as rough as you want - you simply can't get too rough if you're spinning fast. Then go slower. When you drop, say, 100 rpm lower, things suddenly feel really slow, really smooth, and suddenly you have an idea of what it feels like to go smoothly at a the lower rpms.

For example, if you do spin ups to 200-250 rpm or higher, then going 100-150 rpm seems relatively calm. It's okay to be rough at 200, although it's better not to be. The faster cadence amplifies problems with your pedal stroke, things you won't see happen at, for example, 50 rpm. There's only one way to get smooth at 200 though - to go faster than 200 and work on making 200 feel "slow". You smooth out your 200 rpm cadence by observing it at 300 rpm, with all the flaws magnified.

I took some video to see whether or not my legs did weird things at speed, esp my knee, and later incorporated it into a track helmet cam clip. Watch the first bit, with the spin ups. This is on a weighted fixed gear wheel so I have to slow down with the wheel. I can only go about 245 rpm on this set up with 175 cranks, but I hope to install 170s and go for my own personal record of 286 rpm (and hit 300). It's actually not super quick - sprinters will do 300 rpm drills for 5-10 seconds in order to get smoother and build leg speed. My ultimate goal was to hit 300 but I never managed it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSRsauBHAQA

cdr

Cdr question? in your video, seems like you have let your candence get really SLOW... then you just "jump" and go as high of a candence that you can. I've tried to incorporate this into my sprint training.. seems to have helped my initial jump.. thoughts?

Holy crankarm Batman! 250rpm?
I got lots and lots of technique to acquire. (as I mentioned my max is about 125rpm atm)

Cdr question? in your video, seems like you have let your candence get really SLOW... then you just "jump" and go as high of a candence that you can. I've tried to incorporate this into my sprint training.. seems to have helped my initial jump.. thoughts?

I think a rider's jump is mainly genetic. No matter how little I train, I have a decent jump. It's just a matter of how long I can ride before I explode - it doesn't help to have a decent jump if I only last 2 minutes in a race. I rode with a teammate once who'd basically taken a year off the bike. He always had a killer sprint. I kept having to wait for him on this training ride (a shocker, me waiting for anyone), and at some point he challenged me to a race to something about 100 yards away. To my immense surprise and shock, he totally killed me for the first 50 yards. Only when I got up to speed could I use my reasonable fitness (compared to his total non-fitness) to pass him. I beat him by a good margin, but to see him take a 2 length lead in the first few pedal strokes, that was really shocking.

Of course, since cycling takes muscles not normally used in regular life, doing explosive efforts helps develop your muscles and therefore your jump.

Anyway, I start at lower rpms because I need to be as fresh as possible to max out my rpms. If I pedal too fast my heartrate starts to get elevated and I have problems getting through the 230-240 rpm barrier. I can't remember but I'm pretty sure that my HR would be at 130 or so when I start a sprint, and hit about 160 in 10 seconds. I'm totally wasted though - my HR climbs after the sprint, getting close to 170, which is about as high as I get.

For better or worse, I like accelerating hard from lower rpms. I like the feel of the resistance of the pedals. I put enough resistance on the flywheel so I have to get it going, but once it gets going it's not very much. I focus a lot on the pedal stroke - I can feel my foot pulling up hard into the shoe, so that the top of my foot is pressed into the tongue of the shoe. This is what I aim for since I know that I sprint the fastest when I feel that on every pedal stroke. I also feel the downstroke and the "backstroke", with my foot pushing down and back in the shoe. I find it hard to maintain a high rpm - I accelerate as much as I can, and when I can't accelerate anymore, I start slowing down.

Since my goal is to hit the highest possible rpm, I disregard the other stuff, like trying to do it in a "flying sprint" manner where I'm going kind of fast beforehand.

I should also point out that those 3 sprints (all I could manage the day I had the camcorder handy) took place over 15 minutes. I did have to get off the bike to re-aim the camera, but it's very hard doing sprints back to back.

I once did 10 sprints in 10 minutes (10 seconds on, 50 seconds off) because that's all the time I had to ride. I couldn't walk right for a few days. Not warming up probably had something to do with it, but slowing the wheel down (I think it's 17 lbs) uses muscles I normally don't use. I find my hip flexors get super sore, but I figure that it'll help with my pedal stroke later.

I want to start doing it again, but I'm leery right now since I don't feel very strong right now (pelvis area is still healing). I'll wait another month or so to start doing those kinds of efforts.

http://sprinterdellacasa.blogspot.com/2007/07/training-10-x-231-rpm.html

cdr

goood info cdr!

heres a pic of me riding a fixed gear on a trainer.. drunk.

im on the right.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7TmwIln3hrY

cdr,

as always great info.. your blog spot is bookmarked...

I have been told I have a great jump... what I want to do.. is increase the length of time I can hold my top speed... So that when I get to the 200m mark.. and I jump around my lead out gal... I'm not going to get caught... we are still working on the team tactics last year we almost got it right.. in a couple of races.. I held on for 2nd and 3rd... I did manage one bike throw and get a win... BUT my anaylsis is that though I have a good jump.. I need more top end stamina.. so I can hold it longer than 200 meters..

I'm hoping working on the track on my flying 200 m and 500m plus the standing start on those events will help as well.

Holding a sprint is a matter of conditioning (and some genetics I suppose). Ultimately, though, a long sprint is less than purely anaerobic, and is usually not as fast.

A good leadout will shell many racers. In women's races I'm not good with numbers, since I've rarely seen a leadout truly make a difference (around here). However, in the two times I've done leadouts, I've ended up with either 6 or 7 guys on my wheel or just 1.

Having one left is ideal, if it's your teammate. Think Cavendish on the Champs in the 09 Tour - he could have easily let his leadout man win, they were so far in front of everyone else.

Having 6 or so left is okay but not great.

My jump is my strength, and I have to go as late as possible. I spent one long trainer session counting pedal revs in Tour stage sprints (the easiest way to count revs in many sprint finishes). I found, to my surprise, that most winners spent about 7-10 pedal strokes in the wind. Maybe up to 12? Whatever the number, it's in that range. Exception - Champs sprint, typically 20-22 revs for the win. Downhill, circuit race, so fresher legs, intimate knowledge of finish, easily monitored build up to the finish, etc.

I settled on 10 for me for the next race. Normally I would go at about 20 revs to go 150-200 meters, depending on the finish, but 10 revs, that's really short. I didn't win but I did really well. Afterwards I figured I could go longer and still accelerate briskly to the line. I figure my ideal range is maybe 15 or so, depending on how tired I am. More tired = shorter sprint.

Working on leadouts - your leadout teammate needs a leadout when you practice. Then she should sprint like the line is at wherever you'll jump. If you jump at 150 meters, she should sprint to 150 meters like that was the World Championships. You come off her sprint and go to the line.

I don't know speeds of women's races (I'm not allowed in them, for one thing, and I simply haven't asked any women who race). But the leadout speeds will be relatively high, something that may seem unsustainable at first glance.

For me, I prefer a leadout at 38-40 mph. It's kind of a joke, actually, since I haven't broken 40 mph in a proper race sprint. But in the past I've jumped past guys going 37-39 mph because they were going a bit slow and I was getting swamped.

Mind you, I never go 38 in normal circumstances. But that's what it takes in a Cat 3 field sprint. 35 mph and you'll have a lot of company. 32 mph you get totally swamped. You might as well sit up at 32, it's like resting if it's the last mile of the race.

Adjust the speeds for women. At what speed do the women next to you drift back to seek shelter? When the sprint starts winding up, how much faster do you have to go to get the women around you to seek shelter? Finally, at what speed can you ride some women off your wheel? If you can follow a leadout rider while riding others off your wheel, you will be in a very strong position when you finally jump.

It's all about increasing the odds, and a good teammate (or teammates) will increase them exponentially.

You can get more aero wheels too. An aero front wheel really makes a difference. Aero = at least 50 mm tall, unless it's a fancy wide Zipp or HED. But figure a 404 (58mm), Stinger 6 (60mm) or taller. Not only will the wheels help save energy during the race, they'll enable you to hit a much higher speed in the sprint. For me it's a 15% difference in speed between a 28H box section wheel and TriSpokes (HED3). To 440s (older versions of a 404), it was 10% more speed. I'd swapped wheels around and sprinted in the same loop for a couple hours one day. I desperately wanted particular wheels to be good, and I couldn't get them to go faster. Other wheels that I didn't like as much went really fast. It was an eye-opening evening.

Aero wheels also extend your sprint. You can use less energy to go the same speed, therefore you can extend your sprint a bit.

Finally, if you use bigger gears (to an extent) you can increase your sprint. You have a limited number of pedal revs in your sprint. If you use them all up spinning a super low gear, you'll explode quicker. I don't have proof of this but someone somewhere said that they found this to be the case in a study of track racers (maybe in CyclingNews?). I tend to overgear when I'm not fit or very tired, and I've still done decently in sprints (at 70 rpm even).

cdr

thanks..

I'll have to print.. and take with me and read before my next practice session on the road and share with my teammates.... I need to work on this because I've become a "marked" women... we have a small team and everyone knows what's happening in the last couple of laps of the crit..

man, there should be an "ask cdr" thread, shouldn't there be?

so, i'm a decent sprinter. meh. not really. it's more like, i have a sprint at the end of a hard race, and have won a field sprint with a good lead out, but most often wind up fifth or sixth. i'm fast and can get good shelter, but when people jump by me, well, the big boys jump hard, and then they're by me.

ideally i'd stay with them and sprint later, but... how? when they jump, they jump.

so instead i've focused on making it so that they're not there at all when i want to sprint, which has worked on some people, and not on others.

thoughts? i'm leaning toward making next the kilo-attack season. ssshhh. don't tell everyone who races @ plainville.

thoughts? i'm leaning toward making next the kilo-attack season. ssshhh. don't tell everyone who races @ plainville.

why not, WR tells the whole world daily about his 750m-1k out attacks and still seems to get wins

uber confidence made the Babe and Lance and GW Bush, I say go for it

Now I know, that is if I'll even be racing this spring...

why not, WR tells the whole world daily about his 750m-1k out attacks and still seems to get wins

uber confidence made the Babe and Lance and GW Bush, I say go for it

shhh!!!!

One note: it helps to have a sprint that would be good for 3rd, and break that out at a kilo. Nobody else with an answer is willing to play those cards yet. Yet...

Colonelmom, in my experience, women's races are completely different than gearing up for a sprint with men. It's not just about adjusting the speed down for women. It's good that you and your team are working on a leadout strategy, because if you can be in the front of traffic, you'll have a huge leg up on everyone else. For the most part, a women's sprint finish in categories below the elite level is a side-by-side drag race (and I've seen a few bigger races where it still ends in a drag race).

The ones who win the drag race are the ones who can get up to speed the fastest from speeds that are not really lead-out caliber speeds (like 20-25mph, or slower if a turn or headwind is involved). With some advice from CDR and WR, I've improved my sprint a lot this year, but when I get creamed at the line (assuming my legs are still fresh enough for a good sprint), it's usually because 1) I jumped at the wrong time, and 2) I took too many pedal strokes to get the engine revved (1 and 2 are related). Several times, I was the fastest across the line based on how I was closing a gap near the line or zoomed past the few people in front of me a little too late. But I wasn't the fastest early enough. I thought I didn't have the power for a long sprint, but a 250-300m sprint worked out for me the best because of the above.

When I practice holding a lead-out, it's usually with men. They are in a train doing speeds that I may not even hit in a women's race. It's doesn't translate so well, though I guess it helps me work on my cadence.

Someone mentioned in a thread I had about sprinting last spring to work on out of the saddle cadence by giving yourself a leadout downhill onto a flat or finding a slightly downhill section or tailwind. I do this a lot, and it helps. The best is this sprint spot that goes over a very very slight hump. I use the slight uphill to work on generating more power in the jump then work on my cadence and stability as I go slightly downhill after I've hit my top speed. Similar results happen in a good tailwind, but you never know when that will show up.

I also did some modified power starts (I have an ankle injury I can't stress too much), and that is helping me with those first few pedal strokes in the sprint from slower speeds.

man, there should be an "ask cdr" thread, shouldn't there be?

so, i'm a decent sprinter. meh. not really. it's more like, i have a sprint at the end of a hard race, and have won a field sprint with a good lead out, but most often wind up fifth or sixth. i'm fast and can get good shelter, but when people jump by me, well, the big boys jump hard, and then they're by me.

ideally i'd stay with them and sprint later, but... how? when they jump, they jump.

so instead i've focused on making it so that they're not there at all when i want to sprint, which has worked on some people, and not on others.

thoughts? i'm leaning toward making next the kilo-attack season. ssshhh. don't tell everyone who races @ plainville.

I was stuck at an airport once and asked for folks to ask me questions. It's still one of my favorite threads because there was a lot going on in the real world around me (being stuck at an airport for many, many hours).

http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=388049

But I digress.

I've accepted that there are certain riders that I can't outsprint. So my goal is to take advantage of the times that those guys aren't around. They may be in the race, but boxed in or somehow out of contention (bad legs, bonked, etc). I also feel pretty confident in certain sprint situations, so I aim at finishes that suit me.

When guys jump past me, that means I jumped too early or I severely over-estimated the difference between them and me. "Jumping early" doesn't mean that you went early, it means that you made your big effort early. It's not unreasonable to follow moves without using up your sprint. When a guy goes at 250 to go, it doesn't take that much (relatively speaking) to follow such a move. It's definitely not 1200-1500 watts usually, it's more like 800-1000. If the guy has a killer jump, okay, it takes something, but you can immediate taper down your effort.

Since you'll be doing 1000 watts for the 15 or so seconds before the sprint, it's not a big deal to follow a wheel at that kind of effort. Then you go.

When you commit to the sprint, it should be a 100% commitment. If you have a good jump, it'll take a national class rider to come around you like you're standing still. Everyone else that jumps at the same time will really be slowly drag racing you, because everyone other than (ex-/current) national champions will have similarly good jumps.

The trick is to get to the finish fresher than the others, or as fresh as possible. I know that I can barely close a 10 second gap on my own (if I do, I'm out of the running for at least 10 minutes after). So when guys start launching with 1-2-3 to go, I let others chase. If I have teammates/friends working for me, then they chase, accelerating slowly so the field doesn't get demoralized, and taking totally committed pulls.

In a very, very elastic last Bethel race in 2009, I had a few teammates and a couple friends working their butts off for me. We were single file much of the race but only one guy got away. I flubbed the sprint, got second in the sprint, 3rd in the race, and by one point missed winning the Series. Arg. Point is that my friends helped keep things together, I saved as much juice as possible, and I got beaten by one guy in the sprint. Without my friends and some timely help from other riders, the race would have exploded. I'm not strong enough to control such a race, but three or four of my friends, motivated, they managed pretty well.

So races like Prospect, where things rarely get away, if you have a friend/teammate or two willing to keep gaps at 10 seconds or less, you should never, ever see the front. Ever. You should never, ever see the wind. Ever. Okay, until maybe the last woodsy section before the downhill. Then you should move up if you can, use the downhill to move up, and then follow wheels until the finish.

I try and spend less than a minute in the wind in races where I want to place. It takes me that kind of focus and conservation to get a good result. If I get into the wind for more than 10 seconds at a time, for more than, say 10 times, I'm usually hosed.

It's that FTP vs peak power. FTP helps you finish races, but if you can ride well below your threshold, then you'll be that much fresher for the finish.

In the pre-power days (for me anyway), I did a crit in Michigan once where the course was perfect for me. It had a slight uphill finish, extremely sharp turns, and reasonably long straights. I was sitting at 110-120 bpm during the race, a heartrate I normally exceed just rolling to the line. Ultimately I didn't move up far enough and had to softpedal to 11th (first 10 were spread across the road, I jammed my wheel up there to get 11th), but I was totally fresh at the end of an hour crit.

Another thing you can try is the fake jump. I used to be able to do multiple jumps, the first couple being slightly under a true jump. I used them to lure sprinters out into the wind, knowing that they'd start burning up their sprint matches, especially if I had a better jump than they did. They'd start to come around me and then I'd jump again. They'd tuck back in, and as I "faded", they'd do another jump. Then, after (usually) two semi-jumps, I'd jump for real. I won a bunch of sprints this way. I can't say I invented this - Tom Broznowski won Nationals like this, with a triple jump, killing the superstar favorite in the sprint, and that's the first time I heard of such a sprint in detail.

cdr

aicabolut,

Thanks.. I've got a couple of good sections of roads that fit what you're talking about.. At the last crit of the season.. since it was the age graded race.. we made it a great training race. My team captain had me "jump" out of the field to practice... both times I managed to get away... but since it wasn't for a prime or the finish.. I'm not sure how hard the pack chased me...
On the final lap.. I didn't fight for me lead out's wheel.. and like I said.. cause we're a small team.. folks know what we're doing...( I definately have to fight to keep her wheel). Totally my lack of experience..
BUT I made up the ground I lost and then some during the final sprint... managed a top ten.. SO for me.. it is still a work in progress.
Getting the jump... with a big enough gap.. and sustaining it.. so I don't get swarmend..

http://www.digitalimagesbypablo.com/chesapeake_criterium_09video.htm

00:29 - 00:39 I didn't go 100% just testing out what the fields reaction to me going to be...I have on the green helmet, multi color kit, red white and green...

cdr,

I have a great team.. I get yelled at if I get into the wind if they are trying to set me up for the finishing sprint... in my earlier post.. that's what we were trying to do and what you see me doing in the video.. a couple of "fent" jumps... right now.. I can go about three times... in a race.. saving the last one.. for the final sprint.. I figure with more endurance.. I'll need less recovery in between.. SO yeah.. I'd like to work on a fent... and potentially get on the opponents wheel.. then go again... and if need be... a bike throw for good measure and now that i'm a CAT 3.. I'll be sprinting with some of the best 1/2/3 gals in the area...

Another thing you can try is the fake jump. I used to be able to do multiple jumps, the first couple being slightly under a true jump. I used them to lure sprinters out into the wind, knowing that they'd start burning up their sprint matches, especially if I had a better jump than they did. They'd start to come around me and then I'd jump again. They'd tuck back in, and as I "faded", they'd do another jump. Then, after (usually) two semi-jumps, I'd jump for real. I won a bunch of sprints this way. I can't say I invented this - Tom Broznowski won Nationals like this, with a triple jump, killing the superstar favorite in the sprint, and that's the first time I heard of such a sprint in detail.

cdr

I love doing this. I have a couple cool power files that go pretty distinctly from 800w to 1000w to 1300w. At 800 and 1000 I'm still in look-around mode, see who's still there, then 1300 is head down hopefully gone.