Cyclocross Racing - Tacchino Cross

Alright, let's hear your stories!

Congrats to Lithuania for posting a top-10 in the B race; awesome job, man!

Course was great: technical in spots, fast in spots, deceiving in spots. Course was on the short side (2.5km) and the C race ended up being 6 laps. I heard, but have not confirmed, that the guy who won is is a Cat 2 road racer :twitchy: He only won by 14 seconds, but I'm positive he let up the last lap because he passed me just after he started the last lap and the 2nd place guy didn't go by me for about 3 minutes after that. Lots of sandbaggers in MABRA Cat 4 me thinks, which is why I'm definitely moving to Masters next year, not that I'll do anything there either :lol:

Most disappointing thing about this race was the scoring. There were ~100 starters for the Cat 4 race; at the start they told us that they were going to enforce the lapped rule and that if we were lapped we should pull ourselves from the race and report a DNF to the officials; this was done under the guise of being able to have more accurate results. IMHO, its a load of crap; this is the second race in MABRA this year that a bunch of people that finished were scored as DNFs. I know we are lowly bottom feeders, but many of us in Cat 4 use our finish spots (as far back as they might be) to judge how we are progressing and to be scored a DNF when you finished is horrible. The top 5 guys got by me on the last lap; only 57 people finished on the lead lap and were scored. Its a shame, really, and as cyclocross is only getting bigger and bigger in this area they need to find a solution. My personal solution is to go Masters, but not everyone who rides at the back of Cat4 has that option.

Other than that, I loved the course; the venue was awesome; good music, food and beer; and as always the camaraderie was fantastic.

So, how was your Tacchino?

My idea? next time they do the call ups and the front sixteen get their places in the starting grid the refs just say 'ok, you guys in the lead.... you're now in the B race, move over and let the C noobs race.'

The sandbagging doesn't bother me since i'm so far back. What was annoying was to have a sandbagger off in front be rude while lapping me. Just warn me the leaders are coming through and you'll get by.

Terrible day. The guy ahead of me crashed; while jumping on his bike, somehow managed to kick my front wheel. Broken spokes ended my day of racing :mad:

Yeah, good course, good location, good people, good beer, good sausage.

But the officials inability to score damn near half the field is totally inexcusable. And the "pull yourself for safety's sake" is a total cop out. Maybe in a crit, where the speeds are higher and the lead pack stays bunched up, but in a Cat4 'cross race? Gimme a break. And the first person that responds "ride faster; don't get lapped" gets a virtual dick-punch.

And the winner of the Cat4 being surly when passing lapped traffic was icing on the cake - a simple "on your left/right" or "leaders coming up" works much better than screaming "MOVE OVER!"

My idea? next time they do the call ups and the front sixteen get their places in the starting grid the refs just say 'ok, you guys in the lead.... you're now in the B race, move over and let the C noobs race.'

Sounds like a plan. :thumb:

Really, I don't care if people sandbag in the CAT4 race, it's not like we're racing for rent money. I just want to be scored, so I know how badly RacerMike beat me.

wow im glad i didnt go down for that, i usually end up getting lapped in the last lap and getting a DNF even after finishing would really bother me, just let everyone finish on the leaders last lap like it says in the UCI rules, no big deal.

Bummed I missed it even with the scoring BS.

I really hope the putz attitude doesn't infect cyclocross. So far, I haven't had a problem with the guys lapping me. In fact, some of them have been encouraging as they motor by or at least said thank you when I moved over to give them a clear shot. Basically, it's more gentlemanly (is that a word?).

my tent went through over $100 in beer, we had the grill out, and i spent $40 in chocolate alone for the cookies I made. ill just leave it at that

awesome day

a real nice course and a beautiful day. Tacchino really did a nice job making it fun and promoting it.

too bad about the scoring, again. that's really something that should be improved.

marc

I had a crappy cat 4 race with a hard crash on the 1st lap that cost me a ton of places and my sunglasses, but overall, I thought it was a great day. It's always nice to see everyone and having teammates do well makes it even better. Way to go Lith!

And as one of the last ones scored in the cat 4 race, yeah, I agree that half the field pretty much got screwed...but with those short laps, I can totally see why the officials did it (and no, I don't think it was a safety issue, but more of making the officials lives easier.)

Anyways, I'll see everyone at HoCo! It's B masters for me for the rest of the season.

So, what are officials in other regions doing that officials in the mid-atlantic are not?

A quick glance at www.crossresults.com shows quite a few events with 100+ finishers scored in a category. The Cross Crusades appear to have had 150+ in several events.

...more of making the officials lives easier.

They're paid to be there, just like refs at other club sports. That's not an excuse.

[edit-toned down language]

I think there were two factors in play:

1. Short and fast laps meant more then the usual share of racers will get lapped which would make keeping track of places much harder then normal.

2. Being a new course and venue made for some early chaos resolution (including a last minute course redesign) that resulted in a late start. So in order to get things back on track, the officials got ready for the next race rather then keeping track of the lapped riders.

Bull****. They're paid to be there, just like refs at other club sports.

Would you allow a soccer ref to stop calling fouls or off-sides because it was too hard?

I'm just pointing out my opinion that they did it to make their lives easier. I'm not saying that I agreed with it. Like I said, half the field got screwed.

good time. had a blast on the singlespeed.

maybe some of you guys should become officials

my tent went through over $100 in beer, we had the grill out, and i spent $40 in chocolate alone for the cookies I made. ill just leave it at that

awesome day

If they're the black and blonde cookies - those were darn fine at DCCX.

Having happily mooched off you guys at Kelley Acres and DCCX, I'll have to bring something to one of the HoCo races.

im glad you enjoyed them and had a good time hanging out.

unfortunately tacchino may have been my last race of the year so im not sure what type of setup you will see from us the rest of the season.

your last race of the season? ending it on a high note?

As far as the officials go, its not a job I would want and I thank them at every event I participate in for their efforts. Having said that, its not really rocket science. Once the field is spread out, which is usually by the time the first lap is done, its a matter of writing down numbers as they go by then when the race is over figuring out the order based on position and number of laps. I agree that they need to get results posted in a timely manner for podiums and protest periods, but I see no reason why a "next day" version cannot include every racer who started. Masters B race has 75 starters (vs 94 in C Race), many of who were lapped and were scored; didn't seem to cause a problem there.

life took an unexpected turn in the last two weeks leaving me with much more important stuff to worry about than racing unfortunately. its a shame too because i was just starting to find the form i lost last year.

Steve, very sorry to hear that. Hope things turn around; if there's a chance that I can do anything to help, please don't hesitate to ask.

This was my second CX race (first was DCCX) and I had a great time. Thanks to everyone who put this together and made it happen.

I'll echo what has already been said about the scoring. I don't know much about this sport but what's with this sandbagging? I recognized the top finishers in the DCCX Cat4 were on podium at Tacchino. At both races the separation of the front riders to the rest was huge. Aren't they embarrassed? Are they being held back from entering the Cat3?

I had a crappy cat 4 race with a hard crash on the 1st lap that cost me a ton of places and my sunglasses, but overall, I thought it was a great day. It's always nice to see everyone and having teammates do well makes it even better. Way to go Lith!

Ken, I saw you stopped with your helmet off as I passed you on the first lap but forgot to ask you about it after the race. When you passed me a few laps later, I could not hold your wheel.


Anyways, I'll see everyone at HoCo! It's B masters for me for the rest of the season.

Well, looks like you will remain my nemesis then! I've given serious consideration to moving to B Masters for my remaining races as well but am undecided.

racermike were you caught in that crash in the first piece of grass off the start? Someone's front wheel scraped my rear -- I think they went down and I just cleared it.

racermike were you caught in that crash in the first piece of grass off the start? Someone's front wheel scraped my rear -- I think they went down and I just cleared it.

Nope, I came to a complete stop, but was not hit and did not fall. Once again, you demolished me at the start even though we lined up next to each other and I had to reel you in again. I guess I need to work on my start :backpedal:

^^^ Do it. It's fun being schooled by the 45+ Nat Champ.

This was my second CX race (first was DCCX) and I had a great time. Thanks to everyone who put this together and made it happen.

I'll echo what has already been said about the scoring. I don't know much about this sport but what's with this sandbagging? I recognized the top finishers in the DCCX Cat4 were on podium at Tacchino. At both races the separation of the front riders to the rest was huge. Aren't they embarrassed? Are they being held back from entering the Cat3?

the intermediate race is 3/4 , so anyone can race it.

and, it's not hard to upgrade to 3, as experience in a few races is sufficient, or having a equivalent category in road or mtb.

so, they are in 4 because they chose to race there again...

At Tacchino the announcer was ribbing the sandbagger quite a bit. Maybe more of that.

im still on a pretty good high from this race.

its going to be hard for the few remaining weeks to top it.

I keep flipping back and forth between dccx and tacchino being the best so far.

im still on a pretty good high from this race.

its going to be hard for the few remaining weeks to top it.

I keep flipping back and forth between dccx and tacchino being the best so far.

I'd still be on a high too if I'd finished 9th! Great race, man.

yeah im sure that helped but even without the result it was like the perfect day

Include me on the list of people annoyed by the lap rule. I'd just as soon scrap the USAC sanctioning and have the promoters rent a chip-timing system for the day instead. I don't really know what value the USAC brings to local backyard races like this. There are thousands of running races held every year that aren't associated with USA Track and Field. Why does CX, a very grassroots sport, need approval from such a big organization?

Include me on the list of people annoyed by the lap rule. I'd just as soon scrap the USAC sanctioning and have the promoters rent a chip-timing system for the day instead. I don't really know what value the USAC brings to local backyard races like this. There are thousands of running races held every year that aren't associated with USA Track and Field. Why does CX, a very grassroots sport, need approval from such a big organization?

does anyone have a problem with an extra $5 charge to have electronic timing?


marc

That wouldn't bother me.

Cross would still be one of the least expensive sports (by entry fee).

Triathlons are regularly $50+ per entry, even for shorter sprint versions. Most running races are around $30, more for marathons.

does anyone have a problem with an extra $5 charge to have electronic timing?


marc

you could do it as an option -

Just announce that you're only going to score the top 20-25 racers manually as the official time and anyone else can get their chip time if they feel like paying the extra $5.

you could do it as an option -

Just announce that you're only going to score the top 20-25 racers manually as the official time and anyone else can get their chip time if they feel like paying the extra $5.

That doesn't really work out. So, the top 25 get scored by default. Nobody rents a chip except me. I know appear to have finished 26th, when we all know I'm usually way off the back.

That's not a bug, that's a feature.

i would hate to see an added $5 fee for something like that.

if you going to do it do it for cat 4 only or something where the fields are the biggest.

USAC provides insurance for the event and that would be my main guess as to why they are involved. No one is going to let you use their venue without insurance.

you could do it as an option -

Just announce that you're only going to score the top 20-25 racers manually as the official time and anyone else can get their chip time if they feel like paying the extra $5.

the issue isn't just taking the finishing bib numbers, but tracking all the lap. if you have 120 racers doing 5 laps, that's 600 data points. plus, the officials prefer to only track the last 2 digits, as it saves time writing. once you go over 100 riders, it's more confusing.

anyway, there's no way to know who the top 20 riders are without tracking all the laps. I think it's all or none with the chip timing.

I think chip timing (assuming it all works smoothly) would be cool- accurate finishing times, lap times, fast scoring... if you race 12 times a year, that's $60, less than the cost of a tubular tire.

-marc

the issue isn't just taking the finishing bib numbers, but tracking all the lap. if you have 120 racers doing 5 laps, that's 600 data points. plus, the officials prefer to only track the last 2 digits, as it saves time writing. once you go over 100 riders, it's more confusing.

Is there any way to strongly encourage upgrades? Move the top B racers to A, top C racers to B, and limit the field to 100? More primes (of the semi-random nature) in the A race to incent racers to move up?



I think chip timing (assuming it all works smoothly) would be cool- accurate finishing times, lap times, fast scoring... if you race 12 times a year, that's $60, less than the cost of a tubular tire.

Lap times and stuff would be cool. Though I'm not sure that chips let you totally get away from manual scoring - you would still need people taking bib numbers in the case of timing system failure (either catastrophic, or individual). But it would certainly make it easier on the officials, as their paper record would be secondary to the electronic scoring (ie only need to look at it if there's an obvious problem or protest).

the last two years there has been a significant effort of auto upgrade people. Two wins is basically an auto upgrade now.

I dont think random primes would be an encouragement for upgrading though because the people that stay down are trying to win a race not a prime.

i think the best thing they could do is add an additional race because the jump from b to a is much to brutal. Either create a cat 5 race or a 2/3 race.

Lap times and stuff would be cool. Though I'm not sure that chips let you totally get away from manual scoring - you would still need people taking bib numbers in the case of timing system failure (either catastrophic, or individual). But it would certainly make it easier on the officials, as their paper record would be secondary to the electronic scoring (ie only need to look at it if there's an obvious problem or protest).


all these issues are being considered. but as long as the MABRA series is using USAC we have to use the scoring system that is approved by the MABRA/USAC officials. so, we use whatever the officials are comfortable with.

in the past races have used paper scoring or video recording as backup. but no system is perfect, including the current one.

limiting fields to less than 100 racers helps with hand scoring, but they had problems at tacchino even with fewer than 100 riders.