Road Cycling - Cornering 101.

At what point is your entry speed to fast for the corner? I was decending durring my ride yesterday and came around a turn at about 25-28 miles per hour, the road was super smooth and I felt the rear end start to drift out :eek: . I was able to countersteer enough to get the bike upright and managed not to fall. I know the road like the back of my hand as I frequentlly rode and ride my motorcycle on it.

The thing I do not get is hearing everyone talk about getting up to speeds of 40 even 50 mph. Do the tires greatly effect the handling of the bike? Also, what is the best technique for decending, I try to point my knee in the direction I want to go, and look ahead, but because I almost lost it I am wondering if keeping the body in a more upright position would be better.

I don't realy care about my top speed and that is not my issue or concern here, I just want to hear how good decenders approach and manage high speed curves.

:beer:

At what point is your entry speed to fast for the corner?

When your wheels slide out from under you.


The thing I do not get is hearing everyone talk about getting up to speeds of 40 even 50 mph. Do the tires greatly effect the handling of the bike?


I don't think people are talking about cornering at 50 mph.

Well depense on what type of tire you have on it
Road tire or Mt tire
and of course how sharp is the corner

I'm no decending expert, but generally I will try to use more of the road (when by myself) and enter the corner wide going back out to the midline of the road, essentially making the corner less sharp. Under any of the following conditions I slow way down: Gravel, Wet, riding with a group.

I have hit 50.8 mph on a descent, but only one I was familiar with, and the only corner was very very wide, at the top, so I was only going like 35. For switch-backs (there really aren't any around Madison), I would go MUCH slower.

I ride motorycles a lot and have been to a few tracks. I approach my cornering on my road bike about the same as I do on my sport bike. Countersteer, shift weight to the inside of the corner, keep the inside foot higher than the outside, watch out for gravel and stay the hell away from paint. I prefer leathers and the comfort of a wider wheelbase so I don't descend that fast, but nonetheless, this is how I approach. Not an expert by any means.

G'day,

Cornering on a 'roadie' is very different to the techniques that a motorcyclist uses. Largely, this is because of the difference in power & weight. You don't want to be doing 'power slides' thru corners on a 'roadie', simply because you don't have the power on hand to correct the slide. The last thing you want to do on a 'roadie' whilst cornering is lose any adhesion to the road at all. The best decenders in pro bike ranks pretty much all use the same technique. 1/ Inside knee (leg closest to the corner), tucked hard into the 'top tube' with the inside pedal at its highest vertical point. 2/ outside foot, pressing very hard down on outside pedal. 3/ try to lean bike, whilst maintaining body as upright as possible (careful in the wet). 4/ hands in the 'drops', no weight on 'inside' hand. 'lif' the bar from the outside rather than pushing down on the 'inside'. Practise these tips & your decending will improve,

cheers,

Hitchy

Good advise, that is what I wanted to hear. On a roadie you want to be as upright as possible due to the small contanct patch of the tire to the road. I have found I can decend faster on my roadie when keeping the bike at a more upright position and concentrating more on hitting the apex of the turn.

I think that tire pressure may also have a effect on the way your bike handles, It seems the more pressure the better the bike feels on corners.

What about braking: Both, mostly front, or mostly back?
I assume its best to do most of your braking before you enter the turn.

I always brake going into the turn, and accel coming out. That is how I do it in my car, and that is how I do it on my bike.

G'day,


I think that tire pressure may also have a effect on the way your bike handles, It seems the more pressure the better the bike feels on corners.

interesting statement!....the reality is that the more contact your tyre has with the road in cornering, the less likely you are to lose adhesion. This can simply be achieved by putting lower pressure in your tyres. In reality, as your race won't be all 'descending', the actual pressure you use will be a compromise between rolling resistance & adhesion. I generally don't muck around with my pressure to suit a particular terrain. maybe a little less in the wet, or if you know the conditions are slippery, but thats about it.


What about braking: Both, mostly front, or mostly back?
I assume its best to do most of your braking before you enter the turn

the front brake provides the majority of your stopping power, so use it!.....generally both together, although this can vary depending on your adhesion. never apply in a 'jerky' motion when descending, everything about decending needs to be 'smooth'. Smooth = quick. Generally you should have 'washed off' the majority of your speed before you reach the apex of a corner,

cheers,

hitchy

G'day,
...3/ try to lean bike, whilst maintaining body as upright as possible (careful in the wet)....
cheers,

Hitchy

I'm been leaning the bike a little and leaning me body alot and it feel so much safer then leaning the bike. I used to go around corners and lean the bike almost flat goinging slow and you can hear the tires grinding but my new approach of leaning 75% body 25% bike is working great.

I'm not sure which method works better it all actuallity but I haven't fallen yet since I chaged my ways and It does feel more comfortable.

How does Lance do it? :rolleyes:

g'day,

we're still talking 'roadies'?.....
I used to go around corners and lean the bike almost flat goinging slow and you can hear the tires grinding but my new approach of leaning 75% body 25% bike is working great.

most road tyres will have more actual tread, (for grip) on the sides of the tyres for just this purpose. The technique you describe is more of a motorbike 'style', which is OK when you have 'power' to drag yourself out of any slide. They also have far thicker tyres for added adhesion. The problem for a 'roadie' using this style is that,assuming you're pushing 'on the limit', your weight will 'off' the centre of the bike. It is a lot slower to make positional changes if confronted with the 'unexpected' from this position. I also think that should your rear tyre momentarily lose adhesion, then grip again, you'll end up in a rather viscious 'high side'. ,

cheers,

Hitchy

I always brake going into the turn, and accel coming out. That is how I do it in my car, and that is how I do it on my bike.
word. nothing is more satisfying when properly executed...


(well, actually, sometimes doing a power slide is just as much fun)

Today I went on the same hill climb, and I noticed while decending that keeping the knee in close to the bike helps you to keep the bike more upright. When you stick the knee out it makes you naturally want to lean into the turn. This also holds true with your shoulder position.
I also found as with any type of racing, smoothness not only makes you look good, it makes you faster and safer.

Today I went on the same hill climb, and I noticed while decending that keeping the knee in close to the bike helps you to keep the bike more upright. When you stick the knee out it makes you naturally want to lean into the turn. This also holds true with your shoulder position.
I also found as with any type of racing, smoothness not only makes you look good, it makes you faster and safer.

g'day,

now you're getting it...we'll make a racer out of you yet!....don't forget, lift the bars with your 'outside' hand, don't push down with the 'inside'...gives you more control,

cheers,

Hitchy

I think that tire pressure may also have a effect on the way your bike handles, It seems the more pressure the better the bike feels on corners.

Lower tire pressure will cause tire rollover
the tire trys to roll to the inside of the corner as centrificalforce pushes you and the bike to the outside
so higher pressure insures the tire stays put in referance to the rim and you actually corner on the side of the tread not the center of the tread

yes I am training very hard. I would like to enter the racing world next year(if I am ready). I plan on making a few key upgrades to my bike, but mostly am concerned about training and diet.
Thanks for your advise Hitchy!

Lower tire pressure will cause tire rollover
the tire trys to roll to the inside of the corner as centrificalforce pushes you and the bike to the outside
so higher pressure insures the tire stays put in referance to the rim and you actually corner on the side of the tread not the center of the tread

This is what happened, My tire pressure on the rear tire must have been too low, as I felt the back of the bike buckle, and then pop up as the tire straightened. I was very close to loosing it.

At what point is your entry speed to fast for the corner? I was decending durring my ride yesterday and came around a turn at about 25-28 miles per hour, the road was super smooth and I felt the rear end start to drift out :eek: . I was able to countersteer enough to get the bike upright and managed not to fall. I know the road like the back of my hand as I frequentlly rode and ride my motorcycle on it.

The thing I do not get is hearing everyone talk about getting up to speeds of 40 even 50 mph. Do the tires greatly effect the handling of the bike? Also, what is the best technique for decending, I try to point my knee in the direction I want to go, and look ahead, but because I almost lost it I am wondering if keeping the body in a more upright position would be better.

I don't realy care about my top speed and that is not my issue or concern here, I just want to hear how good decenders approach and manage high speed curves.

:beer:

The speed you can take into, through, and out of any corner varies wildy. EVERYTHING matters. From the pressure in you tires (too high and you'll just slide because your tire's too hard, too low and it'll fold under. Both the extreme cases, but it happens to a lesser degree, too. Then on top of that, both tires need a different level of grip in order to allow the bike to handle predictably at high cornering speeds. Take into account the amount of weight over each tires....), to the weight of you and your bike, to the compound of your tires, to the angle of the turn, to the height of your BB, to the banking of the road surface, to the grip of the pavement, to the stiffness of your frame, to your technique.

If you'd asked about a car, I would push you like crazy to try and figure out the perfect tire pressures and lines and techniques for each corner you take. However, good car tires are a good deal more predictable and progressive than bike tires. Not to mention pushing your car a MPH or two over the limit of your tires just makes a noise and slows you down a tad. Pushing a bike 1-2 MPH over its limit and you wreck your bike and tear off huge swaths of skin.

Be glad it was your rear tire that started breaking loose. Had it been your front, how the hell would you have countersteered, eh?

In my limited experience, cornering on a bike generally won't gain you much time, but a wreck can make you lose a lot of time. My riding partner corners about 1000 MPH faster than I do. I usually stay right around the limit in a corner, but it's never enough to stay with his cornering ass. He's just so freaking light, and I'm so freaking heavy it just doesn't work out for me (I'm 218 and he's 165. That's, what, almost 25% lighter?). So I accept the small time loss and call to use my old friend Gravity to help me out in the descents.

Cole

Hitchy,

Not to contradict, but while watching the tour this year I noticed that riders descending had a lot different riding styles than in the past. I may be wrong, but I could have sworn I noticed that guys were hanging their inside leg, (to the corner), out and sliding a bit over on the saddle like more of a motorcycle style. In the past, guys looked a little stiff and didn't seem to move much on their bikes. Although completely different in weight, weight to tire surface area and the fact that you don't have ready power on a roadie, I'm sure some principals are the same between the two.

-Methos

hmmm ...

i'm sure i'm no pro, been a mtb'r for years and a new roadie since this spring. i regularly ride down hills here at speeds between 35-40mph and they are all curvy. i corner with my body centered over the bike and use whatever lean it takes to make the turn. i'm on the heavy side, 210lb, and keep my tires inflated to around the max pressures (100psi or so) and have never had any problems with the bike being loose on the road. perhaps i'm over confident and foolish, but i love the speed ....

-- michael

In my limited experience, cornering on a bike generally won't gain you much time, but a wreck can make you lose a lot of time. My riding partner corners about 1000 MPH faster than I do. I usually stay right around the limit in a corner, but it's never enough to stay with his cornering ass. He's just so freaking light, and I'm so freaking heavy it just doesn't work out for me (I'm 218 and he's 165. That's, what, almost 25% lighter?). So I accept the small time loss and call to use my old friend Gravity to help me out in the descents.

Cole

I guess I ride like your friend. One of the best parts in cycling for me is cornering. I find when braking for a corner I use the rear brake for controlling the line and the front for scrubbing off too much speed. I start by putting my weight back and using the back brake to turn in and balancing the speed with the front. I don't like putting alot of weight on the front of the bike as in my experience it can cause the front to slide out, which is alot harder to deal with than the rear.

I think the term is trail braking in racing with cars. When you brake turning in up to the apex aswell as the initial slowing down. It keeps your speed up through the corner and leaves you more on the way out which is most important on a bike since you dont have the power. The less time braking the faster you go :)

I haven't had any time on a proper road bike so this is from a MTbike with thin slick tires. Which probably have more grip than a slimmer 23mm or whatever you ride on.

g'day,

we're still talking 'roadies'?.....

most road tyres will have more actual tread, (for grip) on the sides of the tyres for just this purpose. The technique you describe is more of a motorbike 'style', which is OK when you have 'power' to drag yourself out of any slide. They also have far thicker tyres for added adhesion. The problem for a 'roadie' using this style is that,assuming you're pushing 'on the limit', your weight will 'off' the centre of the bike. It is a lot slower to make positional changes if confronted with the 'unexpected' from this position. I also think that should your rear tyre momentarily lose adhesion, then grip again, you'll end up in a rather viscious 'high side'. ,

cheers,

Hitchy

I am not too sure what Hitchy is talking about here. I have learned alot about cornering motorcycles and I don't think pedal bikes are any different. Sure, you can't really powerslide out of a turn on a bike but most people don't powerslide their motorcycles around most turns anyways.

I have been taught this from many teachers... The more vertical you allow your two wheels to be, the larger the contact area between the tire and the road. This is why you lean your body over and slide off the seat towards the inside of the turn. By leaning more yourself, your bike won't lean as much. Try it. Go around a turn at a certain speed and sit up perfectly straight. Your bike will lean waaaay over. If you don't get enough lean, go around the turn faster. Now do it again, same speed, with 50%+ of your butt hanging off the seat to the inside of the turn. Stick out your inside knee and lean way out. Your bike will stay very vertical.

Tactic #2 is the best way to ride quickly around a corner.

Check out page 18 of this document http://www.msf-usa.org/downloads/Riding_Tips.pdf

I am looking for a specific explanation I have seen before on the web going over the physics of the matter with diagrams and such.... but to no avail.

ALSO, tread is not for grip (on road tires). It is to displace water. Why do race cars run on slicks? Why would less contact area improve traction (it doesn't)? All road tires would be slicks if it never rained.

To corner well:
1. Countersteer - to go right, push with your right hand, pull with your left. This only works at moderate to high speeds (but it is the only thing that works at moderate to high speeds). You probably already do this without knowing it.
2. Lean with the bike. You can lean the same amount as the bike or you can lean more, but lean to the inside of the turn.
3. Straighten out the turn as much as possible (pick the right line).
4. Look through the turn, head up, eyes as far around the corner as you can see.
5. Don't give up on the turn no matter what. If you have gone into the turn too hot, just stick it out. Look through your turn and you will be amazed at what kind of speeds you can handle. If you brake mid turn your bike will stand up straight and you will go wide, possibly hitting a car or maybe going off the road. Hunker down, dig in, and look for the exit to the corner.

5. Don't give up on the turn no matter what. If you have gone into the turn too hot, just stick it out. Look through your turn and you will be amazed at what kind of speeds you can handle. If you brake mid turn your bike will stand up straight and you will go wide, possibly hitting a car or maybe going off the road. Hunker down, dig in, and look for the exit to the corner.
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Bingo, I have started down insane wash outs loaded with baby heads, and speed is what you need.

On a road bike, I will sometimes tense my body, and lift verticle, bunny hop with out the hop.

This just lightens the bike, and I can pop the ride upright much easier, getting full contact, just out of the apex.

I neeevveeerr steer with the bars on a high speed turn.

Is this correct ?

re: leaning the bike or leaning the body.

This issue has been discussed a lot, in this and other forums. There seems to be no real consensus.

I use 3 techniques myself...

1) In line with the bike
On long gentle "sweeper" turns, I lean in with the bike and point my inside knee through the turn. This has the advantage that I can get my body down near the top tube, thus staying aero throughout the turn. But, this only works on fairly gentle turns where you can see the exit.

2) Bike upright, with body leaned into turn
If it's wet, I lean my body in more than the bike so that it stays more upright (this is safer when the road is slippery, but unlike a previous poster, I find this technique the slowest way around a corner).

3) Bike leaned with body more upright and knee in tight
For tight, high-speed switchbacks, I set up wide, then countersteer by pushing the bike over into the turn (you can push a LOT more than you think you can). This is normally the fastest and safest way around a corner. It's safest because you can change your line very quickly in the corner by simply changing the amount of pressure on the bars. There is a tighter-than-90-degrees right-hand corner on my favorite training route that is just beyond a freeway overpass - using this technique, I can get through that tight corner at 27+mph without going over the yellow line.

BTW - if your tires are breaking loose in a corner, you might want to try some different ones. I use Michelin Pro Race tires - they're not high mileage (like most performance tires), but they stick to the road very well under most conditions.

Well, I'm not going to comment on what anyone else has said but here's my own preference

I try to keep my weight directly over the bike instead of sliding into the turn. I stick my knee out to varying degrees. I never touch by brakes after i've entered a turn, I try to come in at optimal speed, if i'm too slow I adjust the next time I take the turn, if i'm too fast I right myself completely and then try to brake. I try to get my bike as close to a 45 degree angle in relation to the ground as I can. I make sure i'm looking well out in front of me so I can accurately guage how sharply I need to turn. And I start as Wide as I can safely ... to be honest having auto-x'ed several times helped a lot in choosing the right cornering line.