Triathlon - How does pool time translate into open water time?

Which is easier? In the pool, you have to deal with turns and you're not trailing anyone. If you can swim 2:00 minutes per 100 yards in a 25 yard pool, how does that translate to in an open water swim (with other people) since you can just keep your rhythm and maybe benefit from drafting.

For anyone who has trained seriously in a pool turns means faster times. There is no simple translation as the biggest single advantage of a pool vrs. open water is that the pool is smooth. Open water can vary from almost as smooth, to very significant waves.

For anyone who has trained seriously in a pool turns means faster times. There is no simple translation as the biggest single advantage of a pool vrs. open water is that the pool is smooth. Open water can vary from almost as smooth, to very significant waves.

I should clarify - open lake water. No significant waves.

So it sounds like the turns in a pool can make you faster so I should expect slightly slower times in open water swims.

I agree that the pool means faster times, but smoothness is not always an issue. Currents are also sometimes a problem.

One of the main advantages of the pool is the turns.

OP says "deal with turns" but if you are a competitive swimmer, turns are supposed to make you go a lot faster.
If you look at 50 m times in short (25m) and long course (50m) pools (yes a 25m short course, not 25 yd) the long corurse times will be slower because you do not have the turn to speed you up.

Probably going to get about the same answer from others...I think it really all depends on the conditions.

Pool swims - practically perfect conditions VS. Open water - could change at any moment

Leading up to the M.I.M. Olympic Triathlon this year I was pool swimming 1650 yds in avg. of 27-28 minutes. Come race day the wind was strong and the water was choppy yet my swim time was 26:16 (w/wetsuit).

So I wouldn't worry to much about compairing one to the other but rather building good technique.

Fred

Let me also state that I have come to enjoy open water a bit more simply becasue I can just swim without having to worry about the wall. I don't flip turn which may account for some of my extra time in the pool.

Fred

Let me also state that I have come to enjoy open water a bit more simply becasue I can just swim without having to worry about the wall. I don't flip turn which may account for some of my extra time in the pool.

Fred

I do the same, when in the pool I don't flip turn, push off the wall, or anything. I grab it with my hand turn around and swim back. Just because there is a wall doesn't mean you have to use it to your advantage, its a workout, not a race.

Just because there is a wall doesn't mean you have to use it to your advantage, its a workout, not a race.

As a competitive swimmer, I would say that this is an inefficient way to train. I do not flip turn to go faster, I flip turn because that way I can keep up a rhythm, i do not spend time "resting" (or breathing rather) on the wall, and the push keeps the whole lap at the same work level. In open water, you don't put your head up for a second to breathe every 25 yards.

If you don't push, you have to accelerate with a few big pulls, in the open water, you are swimming continuously, so the best way to replicate an open water swim is to push off the wall.

In water polo, the best way to train is to not touch the walls, ever. I have done many 2 to 2 laps, and i can tell you, during the water polo season, my distance swim speed slows, comparing to my long distance, rhythm workouts in swimming.

Turns and pushing is not cheating, it is inefficient, useless, and wrong. Learn to flip turn to enhance your swim workouts and improve performance

where do they actually measure the start and end of the swim race? Right at the water edge or further into the water?

As a competitive swimmer, I would say that this is an inefficient way to train. I do not flip turn to go faster, I flip turn because that way I can keep up a rhythm, i do not spend time "resting" (or breathing rather) on the wall, and the push keeps the whole lap at the same work level. In open water, you don't put your head up for a second to breathe every 25 yards.

If you don't push, you have to accelerate with a few big pulls, in the open water, you are swimming continuously, so the best way to replicate an open water swim is to push off the wall.

In water polo, the best way to train is to not touch the walls, ever. I have done many 2 to 2 laps, and i can tell you, during the water polo season, my distance swim speed slows, comparing to my long distance, rhythm workouts in swimming.

Turns and pushing is not cheating, it is inefficient, useless, and wrong. Learn to flip turn to enhance your swim workouts and improve performance

Its not like I am stopping and resting, my head isn't barely coming up from the water, I just tag the wall and turn around. However I agree it does break up my rhythym a bit.

I agree that the pool means faster times, but smoothness is not always an issue. Currents are also sometimes a problem.

One of the main advantages of the pool is the turns.

OP says "deal with turns" but if you are a competitive swimmer, turns are supposed to make you go a lot faster.
If you look at 50 m times in short (25m) and long course (50m) pools (yes a 25m short course, not 25 yd) the long corurse times will be slower because you do not have the turn to speed you up.

I looked up the world records. About 3.5 seconds difference for 400 meters (Men). There is a wiki with all the records and it is pretty up to date. I'd say the difference is slightly understated because long course (50 meter) pools are what get used for all the major competitions. The short course records are therefore not generally at events that the swimmers are peaking for.

Another thing to think about is swimming in salt water vs. fresh water in a pool. I can tell a difference in how much energy it takes to swim equivalent distances in one vs. the other. I also like to practice swimming in the ocean to remember not to inhale so much water when I take a breath.

Not that it matters but to clarify my post...I do push off the wall I just don't flip...I don't know how. If I did I probably would do it but since I don't - I don't. If I did know how I also would not consider it cheating...but that's just me.

From what I've seen if you are slightly unbalanced left to right swiming and you don't practice sighting in open water you are going to swim a lot zig zag patterns. I swim breaststroke in races because i have problems sighting and I'll beat stronger swimers out of the water because they swam about twice as far as they need to.

I'll beat stronger swimers...

Stronger being a relative term I assume. Breaststroke, even high level, should never be equal or better than the speed and efficiency of freestyle.

Stronger being a relative term I assume. Breaststroke, even high level, should never be equal or better than the speed and efficiency of freestyle.

This is true. By stronger I mean both in a pool on the same stoke the other swimmer is fast over distance x

I am faster in the pool by far. I tend to swim zig zags in open water. I am trying to correct that.

It depends... if you're comparing pool swim in jammers and lake swim in a wet suit, you might be just as fast. But, only if you are an experienced open water swimmer. Sighting (navigation) is a skill that takes time to learn and without it, you will very likely not swim perfectly straight in OW and thereby loose significant time. Also, if you're not used to OW, you might tighten up and loose time that way (very common for the first few times in OW).

The swimming technique translates from pool to OW, but that's about it...

Great question. I wish I knew! I know that when I look at my personal age group splits I always look a lot faster compared to my peers in open water. I think, as others have said, there are too many variables for a cut-and-dry formula. I would imagine that your comfort level in the environment and open water skills (or lack thereof) would make the biggest difference. I know some incredible pool swimmers who have been swimming most of their life - these men and women are like fish - and they can really kill a pool swim. Some are also great in OW, but they've built up OW experience. I personally love OW, not because I'm a super swimmer (I'm just decent I suppose), but because I feel like by learning to sight, to draft effectively, and trying to stay in the best line possible I can gain an advantage, or at least hang, with those who may be physically superior in the swim.

There's also a psychology factor to open water swimming for newbies. I've seen people train totally in a pool, then panic in black water - or at least be unnerved so much that they didn't come close to the times they were capable of.

As a competitive swimmer, I would say that this is an inefficient way to train. I do not flip turn to go faster, I flip turn because that way I can keep up a rhythm, i do not spend time "resting" (or breathing rather) on the wall, and the push keeps the whole lap at the same work level. In open water, you don't put your head up for a second to breathe every 25 yards.
Nonsense. I don't tumble turn in races so don't do it in the pool. I don't rest at the end of the pool, I use it as an opportunity to practice broken rhythm. When you're in an IM swim with 1300 other people thrashing around you often spend a lot of time stop - starting. And yes, I do put my head up every 150-200 mtrs to sight. Oh and just to be clear, I can tumble turn just fine, I just don't see the need; in fact I tend to do it when I'm feeling lazy.


the best way to replicate an open water swim is to push off the wall. When was the last time you pushed off a wall in an open water race?


Turns and pushing is not cheating, it is inefficient, useless, and wrong. Learn to flip turn to enhance your swim workouts and improve performance
FFS, how can it be useless and wrong?? Learning to turn won't improve performance, swimming better sets or swimming in open water will.

You also have to factor in that in open water swimming (assuming you are swimming freestyle) most of your work is coming from your arms. In a pool, turns make use of your legs a lot more than your arms, so your arms get a break. All other things being equal, I would say the pool is definitely faster just because of less arm fatigue from the turns.

That said, I'm slow no matter what I'm swimming in, so take that for what it's worth...

Nonsense. I don't tumble turn in races so don't do it in the pool. I don't rest at the end of the pool, I use it as an opportunity to practice broken rhythm. When you're in an IM swim with 1300 other people thrashing around you often spend a lot of time stop - starting. And yes, I do put my head up every 150-200 mtrs to sight. Oh and just to be clear, I can tumble turn just fine, I just don't see the need; in fact I tend to do it when I'm feeling lazy.

I have done my fair share of mass swim starts, and I have yet to stop or start. People tumbling on me, attacking me, etc. is just reason to continue moving forward, possibly with a little extra push if necessary. On the other hand, I spend most of the swim in front. Just seems like a better result of training, no?


When was the last time you pushed off a wall in an open water race?Never. When was the last time you stopped and put your head up for a second? And if you do, then that must be much slower putting your head up during a stroke as open water swimmers do.


FFS, how can it be useless and wrong?? Learning to turn won't improve performance, swimming better sets or swimming in open water will. Training for open water is not about breaking rhythm, it's about swimming. Turning creates more of a simulation of continuous swimming than stopping every 25 yards. Furthermore, swimming generally involves many drills at different intensities. One may hold the same intensity throughout the drill if turns are used. If not, unnecessary intensity spikes come up even during a long distance set thus making your sets better quality. And as for performance... well, how do you think Andy Potts trains in the pool?

It depends... if you're comparing pool swim in jammers and lake swim in a wet suit, you might be just as fast. But, only if you are an experienced open water swimmer. Sighting (navigation) is a skill that takes time to learn and without it, you will very likely not swim perfectly straight in OW and thereby loose significant time. Also, if you're not used to OW, you might tighten up and loose time that way (very common for the first few times in OW).

The swimming technique translates from pool to OW, but that's about it...

I tend to agree. I prefer open water and only pool swim in the winter. Every year I see pool swimmers entering the ocean for apparently the first time. They have the strength and stamina, but are often confused by the moving waves (which you don't have in the lake) and swirling currents.

The bigger confusion factor is navigation; finding your mark and swimming a straight line to it. There are no lines on the bottom of a lake or ocean, and often the visibility is such that you cannot sight on anything underwater anyway. You have to learn to find objects on shore and line them up in a glance to hold a course. I think also the limited visibility underwater might freak out some swimmers not expecting that. (the black water thing someone mentioned)

The big key to OW navigation is finding something you can see every couple of breaths and sighting that reliably. I turn my head both ways when I swim, so I have learned to sight objects to either side to keep me lined up, and to have a set of objects in the direction of my goal that I can sight and line up to verify my track every now and then. Learn to do that and you should be well prepared.

I have done my fair share of mass swim starts, and I have yet to stop or start. People tumbling on me, attacking me, etc. is just reason to continue moving forward, possibly with a little extra push if necessary. On the other hand, I spend most of the swim in front. Just seems like a better result of training, no?
If people are attacking and tumbling on you it's fantasy to think you won't have to break rhythm at some stage. If you're always at the front you must have done 45-50 minutes in your last IM, correct? I'm sure flip turning has nothing to do with folks swimming 50 minutes - it's what they do in between ;)



When was the last time you stopped and put your head up for a second? And if you do, then that must be much slower putting your head up during a stroke as open water swimmers do.Why? When I did surf lifesaving as a kid we were taught to swim with head out of water so we could constantly watch the people we were rescuing - and good surf lifesavers are fast open water swimmers. The open water swimming I do will always require broken strokes, whether it be to duck dive under heavy swells, roll with cross waves or any number of other obstacles. Maybe you just swim in nice flat lakes...


Turning creates more of a simulation of continuous swimming than stopping every 25 yards.
If you're flip turning every 25 metres you're only swimming 15m. Watch any video of a race swimmer (thorpe, hacket, phelps) and you'll see the pace they gain from kicking off the wall - that's why the world record for 400 metres is 8 seconds faster for short course than long course - an advantage that simply doesn't carry to open water swimming.


Furthermore, swimming generally involves many drills at different intensities. One may hold the same intensity throughout the drill if turns are used. If not, unnecessary intensity spikes come up even during a long distance set thus making your sets better quality. And as for performance... well, how do you think Andy Potts trains in the pool?
As I said before, better sets and swimming more will make you a better swimmer, not learning to tumble turn. I'll bet Andy Potts spends absolutely NO time doing tumble turn drills for triathlon, but I bet he spends time doing stroke drills - even though he strokes 50 times more than he turns. There's a clue there to what's more important.

If you want to swim better, swim more and better sets. if you want to flip turn fine, but if people don't want to, that's fine too.

If you want to swim open water better, get to the ocean, swim open water and never flip turn - will be the best training for open water you can get.

If people are attacking and tumbling on you it's fantasy to think you won't have to break rhythm at some stage. If you're always at the front you must have done 45-50 minutes in your last IM, correct? I'm sure flip turning has nothing to do with folks swimming 50 minutes - it's what they do in between ;)
I have never completed an IM because I am 18, and that would be rather bad for my body at this point in my life, and no not ALWAYS in front, but based on other open water swims of similar distances, i would have to say at least sub 1 hour, probably in the mid 50s. As for the tumbling, there should not be that much past the first 200m, and in that case, you won't exactly be stopped then.


Why? When I did surf lifesaving as a kid we were taught to swim with head out of water so we could constantly watch the people we were rescuing - and good surf lifesavers are fast open water swimmers. The open water swimming I do will always require broken strokes, whether it be to duck dive under heavy swells, roll with cross waves or any number of other obstacles. Maybe you just swim in nice flat lakes...
No, I swim in the San Francisco Bay, which is a very long shot from flat. And i agree with you when you say swim with head out of the water, but that is not really a broken stroke, more like the same, with less roll and your head out of the water.


If you're flip turning every 25 metres you're only swimming 15m. Watch any video of a race swimmer (thorpe, hacket, phelps) and you'll see the pace they gain from kicking off the wall - that's why the world record for 400 metres is 8 seconds faster for short course than long course - an advantage that simply doesn't carry to open water swimming.
Most people do not do great underwaters like Thorpe, Hacket, or Phelps so closer to 22 meters. And i agree that there is no advantage in open water swimming like this. I am, however, trying to make the simulation of continuous swimming, not a shorter distance. On the other side, if you do not go to the wall, that also shortens a lap. In water polo, I have done many laps 2 to 2 ( 2 meter line from the cage), and I would say that you are probably swimming more per lap with flip turns. I am sure you almost touch the wall, but then you have to go a few meters just to get to the pace for that set. I also agree that you would have to swim longer in a pool with flip turns or not than in open water to get a full simulation


As I said before, better sets and swimming more will make you a better swimmer, not learning to tumble turn. I'll bet Andy Potts spends absolutely NO time doing tumble turn drills for triathlon, but I bet he spends time doing stroke drills - even though he strokes 50 times more than he turns. There's a clue there to what's more important.
Of course, I agree that in between matters more than turns, and that Andy Potts spends little, if any time doing turn drills, but he does use turns in his training. Also, the notion that he strokes 50 times more than he turns is not true at all. If he did that he would be very slow. The ratio of strokes to turns is probably closer to 30 in a long course pool.


If you want to swim better, swim more and better sets. if you want to flip turn fine, but if people don't want to, that's fine too.

And there you go again talking about more and better sets. I agree that you need more and better sets, and I am merely offering a method to improving your workouts. I am not saying turns are the difference between an hour IM swim and an hour and a half. I am saying that in the long run, the workouts will be better and that will improve your times.
Also, I never said it was not fine, I just said it was slow and inefficient.


If you want to swim open water better, get to the ocean, swim open water and never flip turn - will be the best training for open water you can get.
Yes and no. Yes it is the best simulation, but some pool workouts are needed. It would be like doing run training without some track workouts, or bicycling without interval training.

In conclusion, turns improve workouts. They help you swim more and better sets. Yes it does have something to do with very fast times, because the sets are better. People can spend more of their time swimming, not turning around and trying to accelerate again. I recommend varying workouts between pool and open water for the best possible training, but when you are in the pool, turns make a workout efficient.

I have never completed an IM because I am 18, and that would be rather bad for my body at this point in my life, and no not ALWAYS in front, but based on other open water swims of similar distances, i would have to say at least sub 1 hour, probably in the mid 50s. As for the tumbling, there should not be that much past the first 200m, and in that case, you won't exactly be stopped then.

Ah grasshopper, you might be surprised then :) I did an IM a couple of months ago and at the halfway mark I was in a pack of around 200 people smashing each other to get around the buoys. Approaching the finish probably 100 or more funnelled through markers and there were LOTS of people stopping and starting.



Most people do not do great underwaters like Thorpe, Hacket, or Phelps so closer to 22 meters.Sorry to be pedantic but that's not right. I'm 1.8m tall so if I flip turn I immediately cut 3.6metres from a lap - and that's before I even push off the wall. I can easily push 2 metres off the wall so I'm losing nearly 4 metres per turn - 8 metres per lap, at least. You only need to compare swimming a 400 effort in a 25m pool against a 50m pool, the 25m is soooo much easier because you're swimming less distance.



Of course, I agree that in between matters more than turns, and that Andy Potts spends little, if any time doing turn drills, but he does use turns in his training.
I think you're missing the point. He turns because he's a pool swimmer and has trained like that since he was a kid. He doesn't practice it because it's not important for tris. I'd guarantee if he was training for the Olympics he WOULD practice flip turns.

If someone is starting to swim for triathlons, especially if they've never swum as a kid, they don't need to waste time learning to flip turn. You're suggesting it's an essential part of tri training whilst I think there's more valuable things to learn - like proper stroke technique, sighting and open water experience.



Also, I never said it was not fine, I just said it was slow and inefficient.
Actually, you said it was wrong, and it's not. In the grand scheme of things, it will make no difference to the performance of a person learning to swim for triathlon. Swimming in open water would be a far, far better way to learn to swim for open water. I'm staggered by the number of people who turn up for their first triathlon without ever having swum outside of a pool in a lane by themselves. Getting experience in open water will be the best way to improve their performance and build confidence - and confidence in the swim can be critical for 'non-swimmers'.

The message for the OP here is you can't simulate an open water swim or translate times - you have to DO it. The more you do it, the better and faster you'll be.



Yes and no. Yes it is the best simulation, but some pool workouts are needed. It would be like doing run training without some track workouts, or bicycling without interval training.
I have no problem with swim training, in fact I've done quite a bit of it. I'd go further and say when training for an IM it's almost a necessity :lol: but I don't subscribe to flip turns being necessary to 'improve' swim sets - but we can simply agree to disagree on that one :)

Does anyone have any swim times for comparison? If you can do 30s per 25 yards with a kick off the wall, what kind of time would you expect in an 800m open water (lake) triathlon?

800m = 875 yards = 35 pool lengths. So at 30s per 25yd... that's 30s*35 = 1050s or 17:30.

I would guess the kick off the wall gives me about 2s per pool length so I guess I would add 70s which would make it 18:40. But then, I don't know how much advantage a wet suit and drafting would get me. I also don't know exactly how the start and end points are situated (do you wade through the water a bit at the start and ends..?)

Does anyone have any swim times for comparison? If you can do 30s per 25 yards with a kick off the wall, what kind of time would you expect in an 800m open water (lake) triathlon?

800m = 875 yards = 35 pool lengths. So at 30s per 25yd... that's 30s*35 = 1050s or 17:30.

I would guess the kick off the wall gives me about 2s per pool length so I guess I would add 70s which would make it 18:40. But then, I don't know how much advantage a wet suit and drafting would get me. I also don't know exactly how the start and end points are situated (do you wade through the water a bit at the start and ends..?)
I'm not fast but am happy to offer my times for the exercise. I typically swim 1k in around 18 minutes in a 50m pool with minimal pushing off the wall. This is not a flat out time trial, this is my HIM/IM pace (1:48/100m). Recent IM swim (chest deep start) was 1.08 with short leg, sleeveless wetsuit = 1:47/100m.

Pros to consider
• wetsuit
• saltwater

Cons to consider:
• this is nearly 4 times the distance so there must obviously be some allowance for fatigue
• it's open ocean so not pool smooth
• this includes the run to T1 which was probably 150m in sand
• there was bad congestion at the turning buoys and last few hundred metres before the end
• I don't like to draft on the swim

The overall average male swim time was 1:33.

But then, I don't know how much advantage a wet suit and drafting would get me.
I've done a bit of testing and found a wetsuit and saltwater to be worth about 2 minutes per kilometre - 12 sec/100m. YMMV.

Thanks for sharing.

What do the 1.08 mean?


• this includes the run to T1 which was probably 150m in sand

Wouldn't this improve your swim time average since even running in sand is faster than swimming?


• I don't like to draft on the swim

Why? Is it easier to breathe or do you find you get stuck behind someone's pace?

Was 1:33 the overall average male pace or time?

Thanks for sharing.
What do the 1.08 mean?
68 minutes total time


Wouldn't this improve your swim time average since even running in sand is faster than swimming?
only if they took 150metres off the swim. The swim is still 3.8k, they just tack on an extra 150m of sand running after it. If the timing mats were at water's edge it would be a more accurate swim time but it's not practical


Why? Is it easier to breathe or do you find you get stuck behind someone's pace?
I've always found it annoying swimming behind others. There's nothing worse than going along in a nice rhythm and have the person in front suddenly start doing breaststroke because they're tired. I have no problem with people breaststroking, I just don't want it right in front of me. I also find I'm constantly flicking peoples feet and I don't like that either. And if you're in waves you don't want people washing into you.

I know lots of people love drafting in the swim but it's not for me. just my 2c


Was 1:33 the overall average male pace or time?
Time - 93 minutes. I recall reading somewhere a few years back the overall average IM swim time was 76 minutes (maybe IMG keep tally)