Folding Bikes - The Tikit vs Brompton debate

It seems to me that we get a lot of questions and debate about which is the better bike - The Brompton or the Tikit. Both are 16" (349) size wheels, high quality bikes, in the same price range. Each bike evokes great passion and loyalty from their customers, who appear to come from different demographics and cultures.

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e157/sesamecrunch/bromptonvstikit.jpg

Since I own one of each, I thought it would be fun to start a thread to debate this, which can serve as a reference point for future bike purchase decisions.

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e157/sesamecrunch/IMG_4503.jpg

Now, let the debate begin! Which is the better bike, and why?

Why did you choose the m_type instead of s-type?The s- type has 26.5 top tube length.Just saying,not looking for fight this early on/

OK, I'll start. No need to debate that the Brompton is the gold standard in folded size, and the Tikit has the fastest fold. So much for the easy stuff.

Ride quality:
- Both bikes ride very well. The Tikit has a stem, which allows for a longer reach. It has an adjustable handlebar post, which the Brompton does not. So, I can get into more aggressive riding positions on the Tikit for "sportier" rides. The Brompton offers a single, more upright sitting position.
- The Brompton handling has always felt "twitchy" to me. Therefore, I was surprised, when I measured a slightly larger trail on the Brompton. I guess the difference is caused by the stem on the Tikit, which results in a more moderated feeling when you turn the handlebars.
- Advantage - Tikit, IMHO.

Gearing:
- I think the Tikit wins this category as well. Its 8 speeds (on the standard model) are the typical external derailleur variety - they shift easily with the grip shifter. The Brompton has 6 speeds made up of 3 speeds in the internal hub, and an innovative 2 speed derailleur in the rear. However, due to the gearing, you end up having to engage both the right and left side to shift up or down the gears progressively. Fine if you're commuting, but a pain if you're trying to go fast.
- Advantage - Tikit, IMHO

Rollability:
- The Brompton offers small wheels on the rear triangle that allows you to roll the bike when folded, using the seat to push. However, these wheels are about 6 inches apart and aren't all that stable.
- The Tikit rolls very nicely on its front wheel when folded. There is a handle built in for you to hold the bike and roll. Very smooth.
- Advantage - Tikit, IMHO

Braking:
- The Tikit has V brakes with 3" pads which offer very nice braking power. The Brompton uses caliper style brakes with 2" pads. They work, but the Tikit's offer better stopping power and confidence.
- Advantage - Tikit, IMHO

Commuting:
- There is no bike in my stable that I would rather take than the Brompton when I have to go on a bus or train. Period. Full Stop. End of discussion. It's small folded size, coupled with a nice, efficient ride make this the King of Commuting.

Long distance riding:
I feel very comfortable on the Tikit for long distance rides. Longest I've done is 54 miles with over 3,500 ft of climbing. Especially now that I have my Tikit fitted with the Schlumpf Speed Drive, I feel confident taking it for looooong rides. I'm planning to do a 5 day, 400 mile organized ride next year, and am thinking of taking the Tikit instead of my full size bike. Just want to be different, ya know.

Despite giving the Tikit more advantage points, I love both bikes and admire their engineering. They're both designed well for their purposes. Which is better? Well, it depends on your intended use of the bike, doesn't it?

Why did you choose the m_type instead of s-type?The s- type has 26.5 top tube length.Just saying,not looking for fight this early on/

Sorry, that's the model I have. :o

The crank-to-ground clearance, in my bikes that is typically 11-12". I feel sorry for the 2" that your bikes have. ;)

On the Brommie, that figure will have to be taken while seated as the rear suspension will have an effect. Please post pics of you taking the measurement while seated.

The crank-to-ground clearance, in my bikes that is typically 11-12". I feel sorry for the 2" that your bikes have. ;)
.

Sorry, fixed the table. They're both 11".



Please post pics of you taking the measurement while seated.
:roflmao2: Yeah, you show me how you do this first! :roflmao2:

Please add the size of your tikit. Likewise, do you have an extended/normal seatpost on the Brompton?

I am surprised to see the Tikit weight 28#. Their website states 21.5# (w/out pedals/saddles) + Brooks 1.5# + additional 1.5# for pedals + the bottlecage? What else do you have on the bike?

Would you also mention speed of the ride? When you need to be somewhere in 15 minutes not 20 or when you're feeling a little tired and want a little easier ride to the pub, which bike do you take out?
I assume the Tikit would win although if the Brompton is a little lighter, and you had S-Bars, perhaps...

Also Air Travel; if you're going away for a week's vacation, which bike do you take?

Errands; if you have to drop in and buy some eggs/butter, do you have any preference?

Bad weather (rainy/cold etc)

Bad roads any preference?

Yes, I'm nitpicking, but since you've got both bikes, let's hear it!

SC - thanks for sharing your comparison. There is just one area that I would take issue with. I notice your Brompton does not have a rear rack. With the rear rack and eazy wheels I find my Brompton to be superb in the Rollability category - to me a very important category. I have found that I can even roll it with just the seat post up, using the seat as a very convenient handle (I rotate the seat so it faces backwards making it especially handy, although it's not necessary), even though by keeping the seat post up the bike is technically not "locked" (The only time it ever started unfolding on me was when I lifted it down a step rather carelessly - generally if I was carrying the bike up a flight of stairs I'd have it either fully folded or fully unfolded.). In addition, the Brompton's bag can remain attached when rolling it and is very well centered on the bike (I myself don't have a Brompton bag, I have a backpack that attaches to the seat post. It also works beautifully when rolling). I looked into buying a Tikit because of the Brompton's limited gearing which I find to be a major drawback (I have the max. 6 gears - not enough!), but one of the things that immediately turned me off the Tikit was the awkwardness of rolling it. I found it terribly taxing on my wrist to keep the Tikit balanced while rolling it just a short distance and I couldn't imagine having to roll it much further. Even without the rack and eazy wheels, which is how I originally purchased my Brompton, I don't remember it being anywhere near as unwieldy as the Tikit felt to me.

Jerry,
I felt a bit the same when I first got my Tikit, but after a week or two of regular commuting, that feeling went away. You do eventually figure out how to balance it without taxing your wrists.

I even got to the point where I could do my grocery shopping with it. :)

SC.. any chance you can give us the actual size of each folded bike? We all know the Brommie is the smallest, but it would be good to see the actual numbers included in the comparison.

Personally, I think both bikes are great. I certainly wouldn't throw a Brommie out of the stable for eating soda crackers. ;)

See for yourselves. Sometimes one needs a visual aid guide for the proper feedback. The question that is the most critical one is....what are you going to use it for or your prefered riding style as there is no one "perfect" bike for every situation. I have found the "perfect" bike for me. It just happens to fold so compactly. I have been happy with it for almost 4 years now.

I don't necessary agree with the chart. I have found my little Brompton to fit me the best as well as ride just as well on paved roads as other "regular" bikes I had owned in the past (Generally road & older English 3 speeds). I ride it as far as the other ones-beside being able to transport it to places where I never able to take my other bikes like to the beach which is 20-30 miles from my residence.

As a long-time Brompton rider I was so struck by this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6m29V31VgfI) video showing the Tikit being packed to go in a suitcase.

For me, this illustrates an important difference, so sorry Folder Fanatic, I'm going to disagree on the ease of getting the Bike Friday into a suitcase.

As has been previously mentioned the rolling ability of the Brompton is enhanced when it has the rack & wheels fitted (this also pushes up the weight... obviously)

Thank you for starting this thread SC, we've needed to put some numbers to this for a while. Another good criteria to compare the 2 brands would be on costs initial/ongoing & support from dealers/distributors.

First the non-controversial stuff


Whoa, whoa, looks like some seriously controversial stuff. :-)


What size Tikit do you have?
The weight seems odd: maybe because of your Schlumpf? Another data point: decked out with fenders, rear rack, lights, Greenspeed Scorchers, a kickstand, a standard saddle, and a cover bag, my tikit comes to a bit over 28 pounds. It's a size Medium with certain size Large elements, so it's about 25 pounds without the crap.
The trail for a *typical* bike is about 2 to 2.5 inches. The Brompton's trail is, according to CyclingPlus (http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/thornpdf/CP155RavenTourTestScreen.pdf), 24mm (0.945 inches). On Yak, measurements of the Tikit have come to about 35mm (1.378 inches).
I don't know what the official procedure is for measure effective top tube lengths. Claims about the S-type, for example, having a longer effective top tube than other Bromptons seem to me to be based, in part, on the diagonal measurement due to the low stance of the handlebars, which may not be an appropriate comparison. At any rate, even the S-type felt stunted to me compared to a medium Tikit. My experience suggested that most Bromptons were about the same size as a size-small Tikit. As the Tikit can have its stem modified to any length you want, and comes in different effective top tube sizes, this is gonna be a hard comparison to nail down perfectly.


What is your opinion on?


The Tikit's standard part usage vs. the Brompton's proprietary ones.
The Tikit's crummy fenders compared to the Brompton's pretty ones. Can the Tikit take the Brompton's fenders?
The Tikit's customization options compared to the Brompton.
The Brompton's easier packability.
Covers.
Can the Brompton take the 40mm Greenspeed Scorchers?


My extended stay here in Rome has reminded me -- hoo boy -- of how nice it is to have standard parts on a folding bike. The cobblestones cause all sorts of normal bike things to wear at a faster rate, and I've done various cheap repairs and replacements on the bike. Certain of these parts were custom on the Brompton; I don't know what I'd do if I were in that situation. I commute every day (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIU_SbUohIQ) on the bike. No one in Rome sells Bike Fridays or Bromptons, and in fact I believe I'm the only person in Rome with a Tikit. I'm on my own.

BTW: several dealers sell Dahon but, get this, if a Dahon custom part breaks, the Dealers aren't permitted to repair it; in fact they can't even get parts from the company. Instead they are required to ship the bike back to Dahon. I have a Dahon in Italy with a missing piece, and will get one from Thor when I go back to the US in a few months. Bring it with me next time I return to Italy.

I am surprised to see the Tikit weight 28#. Their website states 21.5# (w/out pedals/saddles) + Brooks 1.5# + additional 1.5# for pedals + the bottlecage? What else do you have on the bike?


Showercap, easily a good pound or more. Also, a freakin' Schlumpf SpeedDrive, about 1.5 pounds.

A standard Tikit is 24.5 pounds for Small and Medium, 25.5 pounds for Large (with pedals and saddle)

Whoa, whoa, looks like some seriously controversial stuff. :-)

[LIST]
What size Tikit do you have?
The weight seems odd: maybe because of your Schlumpf? Another data point: decked out with fenders, rear rack, lights, Greenspeed Scorchers, a kickstand, a standard saddle, and a cover bag, my tikit comes to a bit over 28 pounds. It's a size Medium with certain size Large elements, so it's about 25 pounds without the crap.
The trail for a *typical* bike is about 2 to 2.5 inches. The Brompton's trail is, according to CyclingPlus (http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/thornpdf/CP155RavenTourTestScreen.pdf), 24mm (0.945 inches). On Yak, measurements of the Tikit have come to about 35mm (1.378 inches).


- Medium size Tikit.
- Schlumpf. Yeah, guilty. Perhaps someone can measure a non-contaminated Medium Tikit and let me know the weight. I'll update the chart.
- On the trail. Hmmmmm. There is some "eyeballing" that comes with projecting the angle of the front axis. Perhaps someone else can take measurement and let me know the results for comparison.

You're right, even the objective measurements are controversial. I may be sorry I started this discussion.

I'll compare the Tikit's fenders vs the Brompton's. Will let you know.

Since nobody mentioned it...
Judging from the pictures above, in the folded state, the Brompton is more aesthetic (the Tikit fold seems kind of messy) and in the riding state (which is more important for me), the Tikit is more aesthetic (straight lines and more aggressive frame/stem/handlebar look).

kam

Judging from the pictures above, in the folded state, the Brompton is more aesthetic (the Tikit fold seems kind of messy) and in the riding state (which is more important for me), the Tikit is more aesthetic (straight lines and more aggressive frame/stem/handlebar look).


Dunno. I love the tikit, but side-by-side with the Brompton, even when unfolded, I think the tikit's more engineered than designed. (Lee Lloyd did a wonderful analysis of this (http://lmlloyd.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&catid=25%3Abikes&id=128%3Adesign-oriented-production-vs-engineering-oriented-production&Itemid=87&showall=1)).

SC: some comments:

- I think a warranty row needs to be added : 5 years brompton, lifetime tikit
- time to get into normal (ailine free) suitcase for two: < 30 seconds Brompton, some 5 minutes for tikit (from youtube video)
- row for availability of replacement parts : Brompton (widespread) : Tikit - from Oregon USA
- row for product availability in marketplace : Brompton 15 years? Tikit : 3 (implying tested-ness of design)
- row for maximum seatpost extended area : both are good here, with L size tikit very good also, just to show that they both can accomodate large riders - this is NOT true for many other folding bikes; maybe minimum size leg extension too

The photo you took is misleading - it should be taken directly from above the two to show the difference of the depth from the angle you've taken. The diagonal perspective makes the two appear similar, and this is the largest different in the folded dimensions.

Gearing : this is again a poor choice from Brompton to not have had an alternative use of the 8 speed for those wanting the "vast inefficiency" in trade for the gearing upgrade. Tikit as you mention wins.

ps - I think if these rows are well defined, this could be a great place to put many more columsn with other bikes to help others make good decisions, if entries are well entered, then sorting could allow for numerical comparisons too.

SC: some comments:

- I think a warranty row needs to be added : 5 years brompton, lifetime tikit
- time to get into normal (ailine free) suitcase for two: < 30 seconds Brompton, some 5 minutes for tikit (from youtube video)
- row for availability of replacement parts : Brompton (widespread) : Tikit - from Oregon USA
- row for product availability in marketplace : Brompton 15 years? Tikit : 3 (implying tested-ness of design)
- row for maximum seatpost extended area : both are good here, with L size tikit very good also, just to show that they both can accomodate large riders - this is NOT true for many other folding bikes; maybe minimum size leg extension too

The photo you took is misleading - it should be taken directly from above the two to show the difference of the depth from the angle you've taken. The diagonal perspective makes the two appear similar, and this is the largest different in the folded dimensions.

Gearing : this is again a poor choice from Brompton to not have had an alternative use of the 8 speed for those wanting the "vast inefficiency" in trade for the gearing upgrade. Tikit as you mention wins.

Good points. I'll update the graph.

- row for availability of replacement parts : Brompton (widespread) : Tikit - from Oregon USA


The replacement parts is a tricky assessment. For instance, if we are talking brakes then one would say ...

Brompton: from a Brompton online/local dealer
tikit: from any online/local shop that offers a v-brake

If you are talking about something specific about the folding mechanism then the tikit would be more isolated.

Although I should add that Brompton parts/dealers are not so widespread here in the US. Brompton part availability can certainly be different elsewhere in the world.

The reason the s-type has longer top tube distance is. The stem is taller than other models which allows for way more bend, which it has in said stem, to stretch things out.I measured my s-type from center of bars to center of seat post at highest extension.If i drop saddle to handle bar height its still over 26"
Anyhow one cant really make accurate comparisons really,as they each have so many different options.For instance Sesame is using m-type because thats what he has.My bike(s-type) is way lighter(9.2 or 20.5lbs) than the weight he shows as mine has no options or gears.(s/s).Also his tiket is medium,theres 3 sizes in those bikes as well,so it doesnt work out well for comparisons except maybe roughly.
So lets realize very clearly he is comparing "what he owns",which is fair if we keep that in mind.Otherwise this is going to be a flame war as usual.

The reason the s-type has longer top tube distance is. The stem is taller than other models which allows for way more bend, which it has in said stem, to stretch things out.I measured my s-type from center of bars to center of seat post at highest extension.If i drop saddle to handle bar height its still over 26"
Anyhow one cant really make accurate comparisons really,as they each have so many different options.For instance Sesame is using m-type because thats what he has.My bike(s-type) is way lighter(9.2 or 20.5lbs) than the weight he shows as mine has no options or gears.(s/s).Also his tiket is medium,theres 3 sizes in those bikes as well,so it doesnt work out well for comparisons except maybe roughly.
So lets realize very clearly he is comparing "what he owns",which is fair if we keep that in mind.Otherwise this is going to be a flame war as usual.

Yeah, I'm thinking that posting the numbers is a mistake. I may remove it based on the input here.

Update: Removed the table. Value exceeded by vagaries.

I also have a Brompton and a Tikit..I have an old 3 speed M model on to which I have fitted flat mountain bike bars with bar ends..and a 42 teeth front chainwheel..My Tikit is the basic model T..
I find all the comparisons rather pointless in many ways.Beauty is in the eye of the beholder...If I want to go far and fast I use the Tikit..If I want to go shopping and take my bike in the shops..on the bus..or in the library I take the Brompton..
Fixing punctures on a Tikit is easy ...a puncture on the rear wheel of a Brompton is a nightmare..
They are both wonderful bikes..In fact I would go so far to say that if the Brompton had 8 speed derailleur gears it would be perfect..I even think my Tikit is a better bike to ride than my New World Tourist..but..come on..let people decide for themselves..or better still..buy both..

Yeah, I'm thinking that posting the numbers is a mistake. I may remove it based on the input here.

Update: Removed the table. Value exceeded by vagaries.

I see what you were trying to do,which would have some value to perhaps new people.But there are way to many variables,and folks get too defensive,then all your trying to do gets forgotten. I like the idea that you can get different sizes in Tikit for instance,i like the idea of different handle bars like Brompton.S-type which arent only lower but further ahead.As far as gears go i would want s/s in either so im biased that way.Actually car manufacturers are good at producing so many models one cant really compare without confusion.I guess there just trying to fit different bums to different seats so to speak lol.And if confusion in comparing, as a side to it happens, im sure there happy with that too.Cheers.

I also have a Brompton and a Tikit..I have an old 3 speed M model on to which I have fitted flat mountain bike bars with bar ends..and a 42 teeth front chainwheel..My Tikit is the basic model T..
I find all the comparisons rather pointless in many ways.Beauty is in the eye of the beholder...If I want to go far and fast I use the Tikit..If I want to go shopping and take my bike in the shops..on the bus..or in the library I take the Brompton..
Fixing punctures on a Tikit is easy ...a puncture on the rear wheel of a Brompton is a nightmare..
They are both wonderful bikes..In fact I would go so far to say that if the Brompton had 8 speed derailleur gears it would be perfect..I even think my Tikit is a better bike to ride than my New World Tourist..but..come on..let people decide for themselves..or better still..buy both..

That is the point of this thread - for Brompton and Tikit owners to voice their likes and dislikes so that others contemplating a purchase decision in the future can have a reference point. It's not to dictate choice.

Just as a side note to anyone who may own a s/s Bromie who doesnt live in UK.If you wish to change rear cog(re:gear inches),and dont want to wait for part,ive discovered that a Surly cog works,you just have to change one of the spacers to a thinner one to keep chainline good.And its much sturdier looking gear.Not sure if i should have put that here, but seems somewhat appropriate as some discussion on proprietory parts.Some stuff isnt needed from Brompton,although that would be a weak argument,as most stuff is definately proprietory.Just giving info is all.Brompton has a habit of useing extremely high gearing,i needed to get a lower gear inch, and like everyone else i wanted it now once i decided lol.

Didn't realize your Tikit had a schlumph drive which accounts for weight...

Looking at your pictures, while the Tikit is a little more messy w/ a stray pedal and cables looped around, it actually doesn't have that much larger footprint than the Brompton...

BTW, in the Brompton videos, I always see people putting on neckties and riding. I think it's kind of a joke but I suppose you should add which bike do you look best in wearing a shirt and tie!

As a long-time Brompton rider I was so struck by this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6m29V31VgfI) video showing the Tikit being packed to go in a suitcase.Wow that is rather long and complicated.

I have no idea how that graph that FF posted was arrived at. I have traveled with my Birdy and it was a LOT quicker and easier to get into the suitcase than that video - remove wheels, pull handlebar out after undoing the QR, fold the bike and put into suitcase. Literally as simple as that. I would call there is a lot of bias in that chart. The Birdy with full suspension is also a lot better offroad than the BF, I would say.

Enough of the Birdy contamination, back to usual programming.

Two nits. (of course!)



- row for availability of replacement parts : Brompton (widespread) : Tikit - from Oregon USA


I cannot see how the replacement part situation can possibly be construed in Brompton's favor. Let's put aside North America, where Brompton doesn't even have a distributor. I'm in Rome right now, and have repaired or replaced (some out of need, others for fun): the rear derailleur and gear cable, brake assembly, front gear, cranks, gear shifters, and handlebars. I was able to do so at any bike shop in the city. Heh. It occurred to me yesterday that not one of those parts was replaceable if I had a Brompton: they're all custom and the closest Brompton dealer is in freakin' Milan. I need this bike to commute every day, and can't afford to wait for shipping, much less explain to a dealer, in halting Italian, how to obtain and install the part. If I had a Brompton and needed to replace just one of those parts, I'd be seriously screwed right now.

Okay, not that screwed: my wife happens to also have one of our Dahons here too; I could use that instead in a pinch. :-)



row for maximum seatpost extended area : both are good here, with L size tikit very good also, just to show that they both can accomodate large riders - this is NOT true for many other folding bikes


To the contrary, I don't think this is a Brompton strong point. The Tikit's got three top tubes and can accommodate any ahead stem and a great many handlebar styles. The Bromptons I've tested (S and M type) were not only shorter in effective top tube (as I measured it) than off the shelf size-Medium *and* Large tikits, they were shorter than Dahons too (Helios, Mu, and Speed P8). YMMV.

Wow that is rather long and complicated.

Yep. All BFs are packable, but none are quick-packable. Still much better than packing my Helios tho.

The photo you took is misleading - it should be taken directly from above the two to show the difference of the depth from the angle you've taken. The diagonal perspective makes the two appear similar, and this is the largest different in the folded dimensions.

Why should the picture emphasize the worst case? Is not the diagonal perspective more representative of how the actual bike dimensions would come into play in your average real world scenario?

"Despite giving the Tikit more advantage points, I love both bikes and admire their engineering. They're both designed well for their purposes. Which is better? Well, it depends on your intended use of the bike, doesn't it? "

Any thread abt Tikit vs Brompton will surely attract lots of discussions and opinions, attesting to the quality and sterling performance of both bikes. As an owner of both bikes, I fully agree with the above opinion. Commuting in tight places, Brompton takes the cake but in all other aspects, the tikit is superior. I took it recently to Borneo for touring and came away impressed.

http://lovethefold.blogspot.com/2009/10/tikit-in-borneo.html

I have a large Tikit so I'll comment on that...

LIKES

Rollability: I like how it handles when folded. Many people have commented that they feel the Tikit is awkward to roll, but I disagree. After a week or two of regular use, it doesn't feel awkward at all. At some point, things click and you're balancing it like a pro.
Options: I like that, for the most part, everything is easily replaced on the Tikit... and that there is an easy (although potentially expensive) option for upgrading the bike to fit ones needs. If, for example, I decide to switch to internal hub gear, I can simply send the bike back to Bike Friday and they'll handle it. Sure, it won't be cheap, but it's definitely easy... and the bike will remain under warranty.
Folding: I love how quickly and easily the Tikit folds and unfolds. I can't count the number of times that quick folding capability came in handy during my multi-modal commute in Chicago (ride-train-ride-train-ride). I'm not an early bird so I often got to the stop right on time to catch the train.
Utility: This is also true of the Brompton, but one other aspect I enjoy is that I could take it into any store, any train, any bus, any restaurant... and it even fit in the back of my friends Mini Cooper (barely). And I did my grocery shopping with it using the front rack and pannier.
Green Gear: Green Gear is, of course, the company that makes Bike Friday. I list them here because their customer service is beyond excellent. It's relatively easy to interact with just about anyone in the company... and they're great about answering even the silliest questions.



DISLIKES

Cable Routing: This might be a bit of nitpick, but I don't like the cable routing on the Tikit. It could definitely use some work in this regard... especially when the hyperfold cable cinches up on the rear derailleur cable. Annoying.
Stem Flex: There is a wee bit of play in the handlebars no matter what you do. Eventually you do learn, as with all folders, not to manhandle them, but now that I have hills to climb... there are times when I just don't feel like being dainty. This is a problem with most folders though... not just the Tikit.
Standing: The large Tikit, without the rear rack, does not stand on its own while folded. I have a small trick where I use one of the pedals to keep it from falling, but that doesn't always work. The only way to be sure is to lean it against something. As noted, some have reported that the rear rack resolves this.

As a long-time Brompton rider I was so struck by this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6m29V31VgfI) video showing the Tikit being packed to go in a suitcase.

Yeah... I would say the Brompton is very easy to pack compared to any folding bike on the market, especially if you have the Travel Case for the bike. I mean... nothing could possibly be easier than open the case putting the bike inside and then shutting the case.

But I don't think the Tikit is all that tough... the video is 5 mins long... and with practice one could probably shave that down to 3. Yes, it requires a bit more effort, but it's not like it's rocket science we're talking about... or are we? ;)

--sam

As a long-time Brompton rider I was so struck by this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6m29V31VgfI) video showing the Tikit being packed to go in a suitcase.

For me, this illustrates an important difference, so sorry Folder Fanatic, I'm going to disagree on the ease of getting the Bike Friday into a suitcase.

As has been previously mentioned the rolling ability of the Brompton is enhanced when it has the rack & wheels fitted (this also pushes up the weight... obviously)

Thank you for starting this thread SC, we've needed to put some numbers to this for a while. Another good criteria to compare the 2 brands would be on costs initial/ongoing & support from dealers/distributors.

Do check out the source Website below for yourself to get the full picture.


Wow that is rather long and complicated.

I have no idea how that graph that FF posted was arrived at. I have traveled with my Birdy and it was a LOT quicker and easier to get into the suitcase than that video - remove wheels, pull handlebar out after undoing the QR, fold the bike and put into suitcase. Literally as simple as that. I would call there is a lot of bias in that chart. The Birdy with full suspension is also a lot better offroad than the BF, I would say.

Enough of the Birdy contamination, back to usual programming.

I downloaded it from the Folding Society Website:
http://www.foldsoc.co.uk/Mike/birdy-brompton-friday.html as "...an attempt to show the merits of each bicycle with in the form of a graph...." more fully discussed in the Webpage itself. Note that they are very "Brompton Bias."

Perhaps I should have included another graph from that Website, perhaps it would have added more confusion. The idea to keep in mind is-there is no "right" answer for everybody. 25-30 years ago, I would probably go for a sportier bike (like the tikit), folding or not as my bikes in those days were non folding or separating road bikes that did not go everywhere with me when I traveled except in my own private light truck. My riding style has changed over the years as well as the car ownership-or lack of, road conditions, people in my locale, personal preferences, and more simply finances. I like to use other forms of transit as I don't care to go more than 20 or so miles on any bike or bike type anymore. Do read the Webpage for yourselves and make up your own minds.


Yep. All BFs are packable, but none are quick-packable. Still much better than packing my Helios tho.

I would add "too much trouble" for me as I prefer not to fuss over a bike too much during a holiday or vacation. I have other things on my mind and other things to do on a limited time & budget. The Brompton need not be broken down or taken apart to fit inside a suitcase-with an array of tools mind you, more to remember to take with you-like the rest of the high end folders. All you have to do is to just fold & go.

I would add "too much trouble" for me as I prefer not to fuss over a bike too much during a holiday or vacation. I have other things on my mind and other things to do on a limited time & budget. The Brompton need not be broken down or taken apart to fit inside a suitcase-with an array of tools mind you

You mean an allen wrench? Ooookay.

I pack a bike once every few months at most. I *ride* the bike daily. I think I'll pick ride quality over packing speed. Furthermore, what's the big deal of 30 minutes spent packing a bike when I'll spend probably ten hours going to, from, and about the airport, and flying to my destination?

Sesame I knew this thread would stir the usual Tikit fan boys into action especially Feijai lol! How are you you mad folding man lol?

As a commute and go bike for cities like London and compact folding with acceptable ride quality, the Brompton wins hands down! No thanks to the Tikit for me lol! This is a debate that has become like flogging a dead horse even when it has rotted down to the bones!

Some of you love the Tikit, some of us love the Brompton. They both have their virtues but as I've said before and I'll say again, if the Tikit is such a superior bike why doesn't it outsell the Brompton in international markets? Don't give me the lame excuse of marketing! this is a question I've raised before and it has never been specifically addressed by the Tikitites!

If the Tikit is such a superior bike why doesn't it outsell the Brompton in international markets?

Dahon sells twenty times as many bikes as Brompton does per year. How can this possibly be?

Sesame I knew this thread would stir the usual Tikit fan boys into action especially Feijai lol! How are you you mad folding man lol?

As a commute and go bike for cities like London and compact folding with acceptable ride quality, the Brompton wins hands down! No thanks to the Tikit for me lol! This is a debate that has become like flogging a dead horse even when it has rotted down to the bones!

Some of you love the Tikit, some of us love the Brompton. They both have their virtues but as I've said before and I'll say again, if the Tikit is such a superior bike why doesn't it outsell the Brompton in international markets? Don't give me the lame excuse of marketing! this is a question I've raised before and it has never been specifically addressed by the Tikitites!

Hi there Mulleady! Here you are again, stirring the pot! :D

Yeah, the Tikit fans have spoken up in defense, but where are the big Brompton supporters? I know they're out there. We need to hear more from that side! :D

The difference is simple:
The tikit uses mostly the same design solutions as a regular bike while the Brompton has specifically optimized all it's design solutions for a folding bike. If you need or think you need things like a derailleur, choice of frame length, mostly standard replacement parts, etc then a Brompton isn't going to cut it; otherwise I think the Brompton is better although truthfully I'm not entirely enamored by either bike.



Some of you love the Tikit, some of us love the Brompton. They both have their virtues but as I've said before and I'll say again, if the Tikit is such a superior bike why doesn't it outsell the Brompton in international markets? Don't give me the lame excuse of marketing! this is a question I've raised before and it has never been specifically addressed by the Tikitites!

Oh that's easy: because cyclists are daft and think that the purchase decisions of others prove which is a superior bike. Ironically there might actually be some sense to this logic if it weren't so prevalent in the cycling community. You are the answer to your own question. :o

buying both seems a good idea!

I would add "too much trouble" for me as I prefer not to fuss over a bike too much during a holiday or vacation. I have other things on my mind and other things to do on a limited time & budget. The Brompton need not be broken down or taken apart to fit inside a suitcase-with an array of tools mind you, more to remember to take with you-like the rest of the high end folders. All you have to do is to just fold & go.

FF,

I assume you carry some tools with you to change a flat and such. I don't think packing/unpacking most bikes takes much more -- if any more at all -- than what one would take for normal roadside repair.

IH

Now, let the debate begin! Which is the better bike, and why?

I own a Tikit, and the Brompton is the only other folder that I have extensive experience with, so I feel highly qualified to weigh in on this topic.

The question is silly, or at least ill-posed. The bike that is better for me, might not be the bike that is better for you. Despite the fact that these bikes are intended for a similar application, the details of how you would use the bike, and the kinds of things that you are sensitive too about the bike could easily push you one way or the other.

Fit - I'm 6'3" (190.5 cm) the Brompton I rode had all the various extensions to support a taller person, but the fit was still sub-par. A ~30 mile day was a very long day indeed on the Brompton because the fit was so bad. But, if I were only going to ride it on a short commute, say <10 miles at a go, I might not care so much about fit. The range of frame sizes and fitting options of the Tikit allow for a good fit. A 30 mile ride on a Tikit is perfectly comfortable.

Fold - The Tikit fit is faster, but less compact, and moving the Tikit around in it's folded state is a little more unwieldy than moving the Brompton around. If I was using a folding bike in such a manner that I was constantly folding and unfolding, and schleping it around folded, I would go for the Brompton.

So, if you are lucky enough to be the right size for a Brompton, or your ride is short, and you care more about the fold than the ride you would choose a Brompton. If you want a bike that can fit you well and is a better ride as a bike, then you might choose a Tikit.

I can see how people would go either way (or both like Sesame Crunch!) depending on their circumstances.

Speedo

FF,

I assume you carry some tools with you to change a flat and such. I don't think packing/unpacking most bikes takes much more -- if any more at all -- than what one would take for normal roadside repair.

IH

I guess if you are just out riding for fun or racing then you can afford to waste time on a roadside repair, but I try to avoid roadside repair at all costs: I'd rather call a cab, take the bus, or even ride home on the rims and on vacation I'd definitely just take it to the nearest bike shop.

The replacement parts is a tricky assessment. For instance, if we are talking brakes then one would say ...

Brompton: from a Brompton online/local dealer
tikit: from any online/local shop that offers a v-brake

If you are talking about something specific about the folding mechanism then the tikit would be more isolated.


This got me thinking: what bits on the Tikit are actually custom? The raw frame itself of course (rear triangle, aardvark, top tube, stem riser, and fork). But besides that, examining the bike, here's what I've come up with:


The hyperfold cable (or if you're on a model-T, the pac-man clamp).
The latch rings.
The "funnel" shaped hyperfold cable guide under the steerer tube.
The aardvark hinge (just a hunk of steel tubing).
The stem riser hinge (just a bolt I think).
The seatmast catch.
The stem catch and catch pin.


Did I miss any? The last two are immaterial bits of metal and plastic I guess.

I guess if you are just out riding for fun or racing then you can afford to waste time on a roadside repair, but I try to avoid roadside repair at all costs: I'd rather call a cab, take the bus, or even ride home on the rims and on vacation I'd definitely just take it to the nearest bike shop.

That is a reasonable personal choice. Although it is probably more of a waste of time calling a cab/catching a bus and then taking it to the shop than simply fixing the flat or a handful or other easy repairs on the spot.

Did I miss any? The last two are immaterial bits of metal and plastic I guess.

You got me. I know more about a Brompton than the tikit. The old and new Bromptons that I rode for extended periods both had extra long caliper brakes -- I remember something more than 60mm -- with that reverse cable direction. There might be alternatives out there, but the Brompton's brakes were the only one could easily predict would work. Getting another set took a long time.

Dahon sells twenty times as many bikes as Brompton does per year. How can this possibly be?

I do not see why this argument is used. Most of the mainstream bike manufactures have sold a lot of poor quality bikes in greater numbers than the small specialist folding market. Sales volumes does not strongly correlate to quality. Raleigh chopper, early huffy bmx bike and so on...................

That is a reasonable personal choice. Although it is probably more of a waste of time calling a cab/catching a bus and then taking it to the shop than simply fixing the flat or a handful or other easy repairs on the spot.

Depending on the nature of the flat, patch type, tube size, and tire/rim combination fixing a flat may be anywhere from easy to the most difficult bicycle repair task ever encountered. Hopefully we don't get a flats very often, so for whatever particular combination of patch kit, tube, tires, and rims I'm currently using it could take many years to find out whether the task will be easy or hard (not to mention the fact that the nature of the puncture could ultimately render the repair futile).

Not something I want to experiment with when I'm trying to get somewhere. Especially since even in the worst case one never has to travel more than half the total distance of the trip in order to delay the repair for a more convenient time; Although on average one shouldn't need to travel more than 1/4 of the total distance and it will probably take half that just to be completely sure you even have a flat. So let's say you're going on a 16 mile journey, if you flat on average you'll probably have to travel something like 4 miles to get to either the destination or origin, it will probably take 2 miles to be completely sure you have a flat, which leaves you stranded for only 2 miles. For those two miles IMO it makes more sense just to walk or ride on the rims; you probably won't be able to fix the flat faster especially when you consider all the things that could go wrong in attempting to do so.

Depending on the nature of the flat, patch type, tube size, and tire/rim combination fixing a flat may be anywhere from easy to the most difficult bicycle repair task ever encountered. Hopefully we don't get a flats very often, so for whatever particular combination of patch kit, tube, tires, and rims I'm currently using it could take many years to find out whether the task will be easy or hard (not to mention the fact that the nature of the puncture could ultimately render the repair futile).

Not something I want to experiment with when I'm trying to get somewhere. Especially since even in the worst case one never has to travel more than half the total distance of the trip in order to delay the repair for a more convenient time; Although on average one shouldn't need to travel more than 1/4 of the total distance and it will probably take half that just to be completely sure you even have a flat. So let's say you're going on a 16 mile journey, if you flat on average you'll probably have to travel something like 4 miles to get to either the destination or origin, it will probably take 2 miles to be completely sure you have a flat, which leaves you stranded for only 2 miles. For those two miles IMO it makes more sense just to walk or ride on the rims; you probably won't be able to fix the flat faster especially when you consider all the things that could go wrong in attempting to do so.

Over 5-6 K miles, I'll get about two a year -- I use puncture resistant tires. I also swap tires every now and then for different rides. Even with the 20" tires -- which on average are more difficult to change than full size bikes, in my experience -- it is a little less than five minutes if you are careful and simply swap the tube.

But you are right. Every now and then there is a rim/tire combination that can be a real son of a b!tch. And if one uses really durable tires then flat tires are a teeny tiny problem even over relatively long distances. If one is simply going to take a cab (or whatever), then one also need not worry about tools and/or a pump to carry or get stolen.

Mind you, there are other simple fixes that seem to pop up every now and then that a pair of pliers and/or an allen key will correct quickly. In the end, however, there is no "right" answer since people have different aptitudes/desires to work on their bike.