Long Distance Competition/Ultracycling, Randonneuring and Endurance Cycling - Brevet Series Plans 2010

Anyone want to share their plans for long distance riding in 2010? I am thinking of doing the brevet series sponsored by the Ohio Randonneurs next year. I am about 2 hours from Columbus. I just started riding on a regular basis in August. I just completed 100K on Sunday. I need to upgrade my equipment before then. I need the following items (not in any order):

- Cycling shoes and clipless pedals
- A lighter helmet (I am using a skateboard/all purpose helmet right now)
- Gear to be self-sufficient on the road
- Possibly another bike (I am riding a 2008 Trek 1.5 right now)
- I need to hook up with some other long distance riders


I am enjoying riding long distances and the thought of doing a brevet series (200, 300, 400 & 600 k) sounds pretty cool to me.

Anyone else like to share plans or ideas?

Found out about brevets to late to ride any last summer. But it looks like there is a complete series, 2, 3, 4, and 600K running out of Rochester next summer. Best part, the start/end points are only six miles from my house so I can just ride on over. Going to definitely ride the 200 and 300. the others depend on how those two go.

I attempted and failed miserably last year, but will be back to try again - hopefully with much better preparation. DC Randonneurs will get another shot, and now I know what sadism lurks in the heart of the route planner. :)

I rode the Ohio Randonneurs 200k in August. It was really nice. Not a lot of turnout. I was tempted to ride more of their rides, but it didn't work out.

Hoping to ride some longer rides in 2010. I did a SR series. This was my first year, so I didn't really know what to expect.

One thing you should start working on now is lights. The 300, 400, and 600k involve some night riding. You might as well join RUSA and get their reflective gear too.

I got as far as 400K this year before injury, money, and schedule cut me off from the full SR series. 2010's going to be my first SR year.

I have a road bike that I was gradually turning into a randonneuring bike before the economy bonked. Hopefully I can spend another $400 or so before the 2010 season.

I'll be doing at least one brevet series this year. I haven't done a 1200k for a couple years because RAAM has been in the way but PBP is coming up in 2011 and It'll be fun to do it again. Maybe on the tandem this time...:)

One thing you should start working on now is lights. The 300, 400, and 600k involve some night riding. You might as well join RUSA and get their reflective gear too.

I need to add that one to my list. That sounds like good advice. I have looked at that. Below is a list of accessories that I am looking to add going into next year. The item names are from the bontrager site and I am not necessarily looking at bontrager. For instance, I just purchased a handlebar bag off of ebay but it hasn't arrived yet.

Handlebar Bag
Back Rack I
Air Support Road
Trek Ion LED Headlight
Trek Flare 10 Taillight
Interchange Nebula
Interchange Rear Trunks

Will do at least one series, luckily Seattle Rando is running (http://www.seattlerandonneur.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=297&Itemid=2) quite a few brevets next year, way more than last.

But.. the race season's calendar is already way full, so there are bound to be conflicts.

Looking to do my first series in 2010. We have some really good ones scheduled, as well as two 600s to choose from, plus a 1000. Not sure about that but I'm ready for the others. The 200k might be done on the SS. Been wanting to do more than an easy century with that bike. Everyone is ACP too.

This year was my first year of Randonneuring and I did an SR series plus a couple of bonus brevets. Goals for next year are an SR series and my first 1200k. I'd also like to get an R12 and upgrade my Cyclos Montangards status to the R70 honors list. Crazy as it may sound, my other goal for next year is to spend less time riding than I did this year. The idea is to do fewer but higher quality miles so my kids and my wife don't forget what I look like.

Taking it step by step. Here in north Texas, riding is year round, and I'm tentatively planning on doing a 200k on the new bike on Nov. 28th. I'm not planning a series as such, but would be more inclined to try the 200k-a-month deal than the 600k rides and stuff.

To the OP- get some lights, ride all winter if possible. If the longest you've done is a 100k, don't worry about the 600 or whatever until you've done the 200k. Also, if that 100k was a charity ride, and not a randonneuring route, you may have more hills to deal with on the rando stuff, so helps to keep riding and stay in shape.

I want to ride the Central Florida series, starting in Jan. (finished it last year; first series).

I also want to try the 24 hours at Sebring in Feb., and maybe the Michigan 24 in June.

OP, the choice of your bike is not that critical, at least in terms of finishing within the time limits. I finished a series on a hardtail mountain bike. Nutrition, bike fit, and training (probably in that order) will get you through. What you eat, when, how much, really impacts your energy and comfort.

(edit: one equipment choice you might want is a triple drivetrain, and a big granny gear. Most brevets will send you over some big hills, like Stephen said)

As usual (for the past 3 years, anyway), I'll do the Oregon Randonneurs spring SR series. Then there's the Cascade 1200 in late June. And maybe the ORR Blue Mountains 1000 in early June, tho' that may not be advisable only 2 weeks before the C1200. Throw in a few summer/fall brevets and I'll be pretty well cooked.

SP
Bend,OR
RUSA #3481
:recum:

I'm going to try a sanctioned series and I'll see how far I can take it. I rode a 200k this year and built a fitness base on 5000 cycling miles in 2008. I also am being provided one telecommuting day by my company, this will allow one longer training ride midweek.

I'm considering working with a trainer/coach to develop a plan that will help me reach my goal.

Michael

Feb 28 - Spring Pop. 100k
Mar 13 - Chili Feed 200k
Mar 20 - Bellingham 200k
Mar 27 - Spring 300k
Apr 03 - Bellingham 300k
Apr 25 - 200k
May 15 - Spring 400k
Jul 10 - Summer Pop.
Jul 24 Summer 200k
Aug 07 - 3 Volcanoes 300k
Sep 11/12 - Summer 600k
Sep 24 - WA --> OR 400k

Plus whatever extras to make up the empty months for an R-12 starting next weekend.

Have fun on the Ohio series and say "hi" to all my old buddies; I'd been riding with them for the last five years. Exceptional rides -- great roads and scenery. Bring gears for the hills, though. The rides are pretty tough, but if you can finish a series in Ohio then you can ride pretty much anything, anywhere. Good luck!

My plans are for a full series here in FL (splitting between the Gainesville group and the C. Florida group). I'll do the 1000K here in October, too. And the C. Florida fleche. Probably no 1200K in 2010, though I sure would like to do the C1200....

I want to ride the Central Florida series, starting in Jan. (finished it last year; first series).

I also want to try the 24 hours at Sebring in Feb., and maybe the Michigan 24 in June.

OP, the choice of your bike is not that critical, at least in terms of finishing within the time limits. I finished a series on a hardtail mountain bike. Nutrition, bike fit, and training (probably in that order) will get you through. What you eat, when, how much, really impacts your energy and comfort.

(edit: one equipment choice you might want is a triple drivetrain, and a big granny gear. Most brevets will send you over some big hills, like Stephen said)

As in 2009 I'll probably miss the 200's in FL and have to make them up somewhere else. In 2009 it was skiing ... in 2010, probably the same.

I agree with Chewybrian that the bike is not that important. I've seen everything on the brevets. However, I'd add one more thing to the list -- determination. It's the most important thing.

I too would like to try the Sebring 24 -- never tried anything like that before. I've also signed up for the Miglia 1001 in Italy -- 1600km -- before that I'll need to learn some basic Italian !

The 2010 brevet year started on November 1st.

On November 14th, I rode the Pyrenees Magic 100K, the longest distance I've ridden since May. I wanted to do a 100K before Christmas ... and I succeeded!! We're looking at some more of about that distance before Christmas as well, and hopefully I'll be able to get the Noveau Randonneur award. :)

Other than that ... we'll see what happens.

Congratulations, Machka, back on the long road!

I'm thinking this Spring to do a brevet or two, and see how far I want to take it. Ohio Randonneurs are my closest club, from Michigan.

I think I can get out on my bike a few times yet this Fall, before winter crushes in. The squirrels are really fat, so I think it's hard winter. Ohio has a 200k in March. What kind of training should I do this winter to be ready for that? I can do a 40 mile ride fairly easy these days - I'm going to try a 50 mile this week.

Taking it step by step. Here in north Texas, riding is year round, and I'm tentatively planning on doing a 200k on the new bike on Nov. 28th. I'm not planning a series as such, but would be more inclined to try the 200k-a-month deal than the 600k rides and stuff..

I think you need to do a 200k on the tricycle. Should be doable.

I attempted and failed miserably last year, but will be back to try again - hopefully with much better preparation. DC Randonneurs will get another shot, and now I know what sadism lurks in the heart of the route planner. :)

Good for you for sticking with it. I think you attempted the Urbana brevet, which is a pretty tough brevet for that early in the year (March), with 11000+ feet of climbing, some of it fairly long and much of it steep.

My first year of rando, I had been training since January to ride on a fleche team, so by March I was in reasonably good shape and thought I was prepared for a 200K, having ridden 360K on the fleche. But it turns out our fleche route is fairly easy, having only 12,700 feet of climbing. So the Urbana brevet was a real eye-opener as to just how hard a brevet was. The Warrenton 200K was a bit easier, with only about 10K feet of climbing and none of it very long or steep. The 300K that year became known as the "Mother of all 300's", with 17,000+ feet of climbing. (We are running that one in 2010, so be prepared!) That came very close to being my last rando event ever. But the ride organizer promised that the 400K would be a lot easier, and she was right. And then the 600K was just one ride away from getting an SR award, so I was sucked in. It was the hardest thing I had ever done in my life, by far.

Hope to see you on the brevets this year. Ask the old-timers for advice, they'll help you get through it. A huge amount of rando is about knowing your limits, knowing what you need to do to keep riding within those limits indefinitely, and then being mentally tough enough to stay in the game when it gets painful or discouraging.

We have brevets going all year, and there are usually century training rides every weekend, so start early and maybe you won't find the "series" rides quite so sadistic :-)

Nick

Nick,

Thanks for the encouragement. I plan to stick with this, but do the organizers realize that they aren't helping the growth of the sport by creating what seem to be gratuitously difficult courses? At minimum, they should let people know up front how much climbing there is on the various rides.

Nick,

Thanks for the encouragement. I plan to stick with this, but do the organizers realize that they aren't helping the growth of the sport by creating what seem to be gratuitously difficult courses? At minimum, they should let people know up front how much climbing there is on the various rides.

It's been like that since I got into the sport ... even in Manitoba they'd create the hilliest routes they possibly could, and where they couldn't find hills, they'd try to make it up with wind.

The whole idea is that since PBP has 30,000 ft of climbing (or something like that), therefore the 200K should have 5000 ft of climbing, the 300K should have 7500 ft of climbing, the 400K should have 10,000 ft of climbing, and the 600K should have 15,000 ft of climbing.

But there does seem to have been a bit of a push to have more difficult 1200s in the US. The BMB used to claim to have more climbing than the PBP, and there's a new one (Endless Hills?? or something like that) run this year that made the same claim.

I need to add that one to my list. That sounds like good advice. I have looked at that. Below is a list of accessories that I am looking to add going into next year. The item names are from the bontrager site and I am not necessarily looking at bontrager. For instance, I just purchased a handlebar bag off of ebay but it hasn't arrived yet.

Handlebar Bag
Back Rack I
Air Support Road
Trek Ion LED Headlight
Trek Flare 10 Taillight
Interchange Nebula
Interchange Rear Trunks


I would read through the Electronics and lighting forum here before buying lights. I don't know of anyone that recommends the Trek lights.

It's been like that since I got into the sport ... even in Manitoba they'd create the hilliest routes they possibly could, and where they couldn't find hills, they'd try to make it up with wind.

The whole idea is that since PBP has 30,000 ft of climbing (or something like that), therefore the 200K should have 5000 ft of climbing, the 300K should have 7500 ft of climbing, the 400K should have 10,000 ft of climbing, and the 600K should have 15,000 ft of climbing.

But there does seem to have been a bit of a push to have more difficult 1200s in the US. The BMB used to claim to have more climbing than the PBP, and there's a new one (Endless Hills?? or something like that) run this year that made the same claim.

I understand that. :) 11,000+ feet in 200k would translate to 66,000 - 70,000 in 1200k though. I won't deny that I'm whining, but I do think I have a valid point.

then again, a 200k is considered a short ride, so having a lot of climbing to make up for it makes sense in that case. I'm not sure how much growth is really desirable in this sport. It sure would be nice if there was a major growth spurt in Central Pennsylvania so I wouldn't have to drive so far.

I remember sitting around before the ACP 200k I rode this year listening to the small talk and thinking some of the people there were fooling themselves. A 200k is a serious ride, sure you can finish with a little suffering, but it's easy not to finish if you aren't up to the task. And because of the weather, a lot of those people didn't finish. Most of the DNF's were because of the cold wet and windy conditions, they didn't even make it to the first mountain.

That being said, I have often wondered if the DNF rate in the 2007 PBP and the resultant conclusion that people weren't ready for the climbing has resulted in RUSA emphasizing climbing a little too much. I'm gonna say that if they want to simulate the 2007 PBP they should have bucket brigades of volunteers dousing the riders on their brevets.

The Endless Mountains 1240k ride is sometimes called "Needless Mountains," but in this case it's rather difficult to get from here to there without those mountains. It has 63000 feet of climbing. This year it was pretty much run twice, first in a 1000k version, and then the 1240k version. All of the riders finished the 1000k. Less than half of the riders finished the 1240k. The difference was mostly the weather, the 1240k had cold, wet weather.

That being said, I have often wondered if the DNF rate in the 2007 PBP and the resultant conclusion that people weren't ready for the climbing has resulted in RUSA emphasizing climbing a little too much. I'm gonna say that if they want to simulate the 2007 PBP they should have bucket brigades of volunteers dousing the riders on their brevets.


Exactly!! I was handling the climbs just fine out there ... it was the wet descents that killed my time.

I'm not the greatest descender at the best of times although I managed that part just fine in 2003. I managed the whole 1200K just fine in 2003. But descending in the wet in 2007 just brought back all the memories of my 200K qualifier, a few months earlier, where I crashed on a wet descent, knocked myself out, separated my shoulder, and bruised and scraped my legs from the hips down.

If it had been dry, or even drier than it was, I think I'd have been fine out there. But the wet and cold and flashbacks to the crash took all the fun out of the ride.

... it was the wet descents that killed my time...

One of the things I noticed was that many people were struggling with descents, in the wet, at night. Anyone who is seriously thinking of the longer brevets needs to take into account how their lights will be working in the rain at 2:00am. I use an IQ Fly with a Schmidt SON generator and that was great.

Back on thread, I've already done a 200km a couple of weeks ago at the start of the brevet season and I have the Sydney Melbourne Alpine 1200km in a week and a half - :twitchy:Oh no!!!

After that I expect to do a Super Series (200, 300, 400, 600) and a few 200s, oh yes, and the
Fleche Opperman All Day Trial (24hours).

We're lucky, we can ride all year round.

I've just bought both Machka and me a pair of IQ Fly lights and we are looking forward to seeing if they are all they are cracked up to be.

There is an interesting twist to qualifying for PBP in 2011 in Australia, and it starts NOW... that is, this current randonnee season.

Audax Australia has decided, in its wisdom, that there will be a qualifying system for the expected national quotas imposed by Audax Club Parisien to limit the field to around 5,000.

Apart from having to ride the qualifying Super series in 2010-2011 (Australia, remember), prospective participants will be allowed to pre-register before qualifying rides have been completed, based on having completed at least a 400, a 300 or a 200 in THIS current Audax year (from 1 November 2009 to 31 October 2010).

If you complete a 400, you get to pre-register on 15 Aprl 2011, a 300 gets you to pre-register on 1 May 2011, and a 200 gets you in on 15 May 2011.

If you don't complete a minimum 200, you don't get to register until 1 June.

There also will be points allocated for the rides over 200km that you do in 2009-2010 accumulating up to 2500km. Entrants then will be ranked down to the cut-off for the quota.

And PBP used to be so simple to enter -- do your SR, pay the entry fee, book your flights and accommodation and off you'd go.

The quota will apply to the 13 "largest countries" represented at PBP. I would be mightily peed off if I was ranked one outside the quota for Australia and had made all the arrangements to go. But then, there are probably go to be quite a few people who say "screw it", I've got better things to do...

All this means, of course, that our coming season will likely involve an SR series of some sort, maybe the Opperman All-Day Trial (360km) and a few other rides thrown in for interest.

Rowan, it seems like you are blaming the Audax Australia in your post. They did this to comply with the new PBP rules. The only strange thing about the AA rules is that only a limited distance (2500km?) counts towards qualifying. Although I doubt that you will have to do that much to qualify. RUSA hasn't announced their rules yet, which is causing some consternation.

Well, the ACP put out a set of rules, and it seems like most of the large countries affected by the ACP rules have added their own rules to the ACP rules.

That's what Audax Australia has done. The bit about riding a 400K in 2010 and being able to apply early is an ACP thing. The bit about riding a maximum of 2500 km worth of brevets, and then being assessed by how close to that maximum you rode is an AA thing.

I've heard rumours that RUSA is thinking of adding a bunch of extra qualifying stuff to the basic ACP requirements. But for now it sounds like they're just pushing you all to ride as much as you possibly can:

"For riders, the ACP indicates that if someone rides more and longer ACP brevets in 2010, that rider will have a registration priority over other riders in that country who ride fewer, shorter ACP brevets. (That means, an American rider can move him/herself up within the American quota by riding more and longer brevets.)"
(From the RUSA site)

At least AA is putting a cap on the qualifying distance (2500 km) so that newer riders don't feel they have to ride their butts off in 2010 in order to have a hope of getting into the PBP.


---------
That said ... I've done four 1200K randonnees. The first three were relatively easy (Rocky Mountain 1200, PBP 2003, and Great Southern). I say "relatively" because I'm comparing them to my fourth (successful) 1200K and my three unsuccessful attempts at 1200Ks.

The difference between the relatively easy 1200Ks and the unsuccessful (and difficult) ones didn't have anything to do with the terrain. The weather was a factor, and the food provided along the way by the supported events was another factor.

But in looking at how much I rode prior to the various events, I would have to assume that the amount of cycling I did, or did not do, was a major factor.

The RM1200 was in July 2002. Prior to that, I had ridden approx. 3800 miles (6100 km), and had done a 1000+ mile month in June, and close to that in May.

The PBP 2003 was in August 2003. Prior to that, I had ridden about 4800 miles (7700 km), and had done a 1300+ mile month in June, and close to that in May and July.

The Great Southern was in October 2004. Prior to that, I had ridden about 6600 miles (10600 km), and had done three 1000+ mile months, and several close to it.

The Gold Rush (unsuccessful) was in July 2005, and I had only ridden about 3000 miles (4800 km) prior to it, with no 1000 mile months. The Last Chance was in September 2005, and by then I was up to about 4800 miles (7700 km) and completed it successfully.

The BMB (unsuccessful) was in August 2006, and prior to it I had only ridden about 2800 miles (4500 km), with no 1000 mile months.

The PBP 2007 (unsuccessful) was in August 207, and prior to it, I had only ridden about 2900 miles (4600 km), with no 1000 mile months.


The distances I rode there weren't just Audax/Randonneuring events, they include all the riding I did ... commuting, touring, weekend jaunts, everything.

But it would appear that I need to ride a lot in order to be able to successfully complete a 1200K. So for me, just doing 2500 km of randonees wouldn't likely be enough to get me through a 1200K ... I will need to ride a lot more than that on my own. So the riding part of it doesn't concern me.


The difficulty with needing to complete 2500 km of randonnees will be the logistics and cost of getting to all these events. And what if, after spending hundreds of dollars and all sorts of time and effort to get to events and qualify, we (or others doing the same thing) are not accepted. That would be rather annoying.

...There is an interesting twist to qualifying for PBP in 2011 in Australia, and it starts NOW... that is, this current randonnee season.

Audax Australia has decided, in its wisdom, that there will be a qualifying system for the expected national quotas imposed by Audax Club Parisien to limit the field to around 5,000.

Apart from having to ride the qualifying Super series in 2010-2011 (Australia, remember), prospective participants will be allowed to pre-register before qualifying rides have been completed, based on having completed at least a 400, a 300 or a 200 in THIS current Audax year (from 1 November 2009 to 31 October 2010).

If you complete a 400, you get to pre-register on 15 Aprl 2011, a 300 gets you to pre-register on 1 May 2011, and a 200 gets you in on 15 May 2011.

If you don't complete a minimum 200, you don't get to register until 1 June.

There also will be points allocated for the rides over 200km that you do in 2009-2010 accumulating up to 2500km. Entrants then will be ranked down to the cut-off for the quota...

It sounds a bit complicated. The 2500k rule is a bit unfair, depending on when they announced it. Did you know about it before the 2009 year began? If you did not ride in 2009, you might be needing 2 full series and beyond next year to assure a spot, right?



...RUSA hasn't announced their rules yet, which is causing some consternation.

Yes! Tell us what we need to do to move up the list, so we can get started on it. My local brevet series starts in 6 weeks, and (presumably) I need to be in it to move up the list. So, of course, I need to be training now (which I am). So, it is already past time to tell us how we will be judged.

..."For riders, the ACP indicates that if someone rides more and longer ACP brevets in 2010, that rider will have a registration priority over other riders in that country who ride fewer, shorter ACP brevets. (That means, an American rider can move him/herself up within the American quota by riding more and longer brevets.)"
(From the RUSA site)

At least AA is putting a cap on the qualifying distance (2500 km) so that newer riders don't feel they have to ride their butts off in 2010 in order to have a hope of getting into the PBP...And what if, after spending hundreds of dollars and all sorts of time and effort to get to events and qualify, we (or others doing the same thing) are not accepted. That would be rather annoying.

To the first part: how much more, and how much longer? Will I move up more from one 1200, or a series, or six 200k's, or do they all count the same? Should I risk injury trying to ride 4 or 5 series in a year? Am I wasting time, money, energy, doing too much? Not knowing the rules up front, what do I do?


And yes, it would be awful to work so hard and never even get a shot. I think they should work out a qualifying system that is very difficult, and take everyone who meets it. Then, everyone who did not meet it can take their chances with the remaining spots. That way, if they said, say, three series and a 1200, you could take on that challenge, knowing you are in if you complete it. It's fair and simple, and would acheive the rationing without the confusion.

It sounds a bit complicated. The 2500k rule is a bit unfair, depending on when they announced it. Did you know about it before the 2009 year began? If you did not ride in 2009, you might be needing 2 full series and beyond next year to assure a spot, right?


The 2009 season is over, and what a person rode in 2009 doesn't matter. 2010 started on November 1st, so everything ridden from then on, over 200K, counts. When they say 2009/2010, they mean November 1, 2009 to October 31, 2010.

I believe that November 1st season start is global .... at least that's how it was in Canada too.

So far we've done one 100K ride ... which doesn't count for anything except Australia's Noveau Randonneur award.



And yes, it would be awful to work so hard and never even get a shot. I think they should work out a qualifying system that is very difficult, and take everyone who meets it. Then, everyone who did not meet it can take their chances with the remaining spots. That way, if they said, say, three series and a 1200, you could take on that challenge, knowing you are in if you complete it. It's fair and simple, and would acheive the rationing without the confusion.

Personally, I don't think it should be that hard. Three series and a 1200K in one year would be almost impossible in parts of Canada ... we just don't have that much summer to do that much riding.

In Manitoba and Alberta, where I've done most of my Randonneuring, we can't start brevets until April at the earliest, and the last couple years, we've had to cancel our April brevets in Alberta because of the quantity of snow on the ground right up to the end of April. Then it often starts getting cold and snowy in September (although this year appears to be an exception).

I figure it should simply be a first-come-first-serve situation. If you do a 400K in the 2010 season, you can apply on April 15th ... the first 5000 applications processed on April 15th are in. If only 3000 people apply on April 15, then there are 2000 spots open for those who did a 300K and who apply on May 1 ... etc. That way if you're keen to do the ride, you just have to do a 400K in 2010, then the series in 2011, and chances are, you're in.

The thing is ... there weren't that many riders over the 5000 limit in 2007 ... (What was it? About 5200?) ... and I figure these rules will scare off a few so there may be no issue at all with getting in.

The 2009 season is over, and what a person rode in 2009 doesn't matter. 2010 started on November 1st, so everything ridden from then on, over 200K, counts. When they say 2009/2010, they mean November 1, 2009 to October 31, 2010.

I believe that November 1st season start is global .... at least that's how it was in Canada too....

I did not know that, but it only makes RUSA's lack of action more unreasonable. The season has already begun, and we still don't know how we will be judged, what we should be doing.


...Personally, I don't think it should be that hard. Three series and a 1200K in one year would be almost impossible in parts of Canada ... we just don't have that much summer to do that much riding...

I don't know what a reasonable cut-off would be. My point is, you should have some number, however difficult it needs to be, that assures entry. You could go after that goal, knowing you are in if you complete it.


...I figure it should simply be a first-come-first-serve situation. If you do a 400K in the 2010 season, you can apply on April 15th ... the first 5000 applications processed on April 15th are in. If only 3000 people apply on April 15, then there are 2000 spots open for those who did a 300K and who apply on May 1 ... etc. That way if you're keen to do the ride, you just have to do a 400K in 2010, then the series in 2011, and chances are, you're in...

I disagree strongly. That seems to be the RUSA position, that it will all work out. But, if more than 5000 people qualify and apply by 4/15, then what? Will you end up in a lottery, no matter how many miles you put in? Or will you discover after the fact that you could have qualified by doing more/longer rides, but never knew the number until you were already bumped?

This is a big goal for so many people. Don't they deserve a way to work their way in without waiting and wondering?

I disagree strongly. That seems to be the RUSA position, that it will all work out. But, if more than 5000 people qualify and apply by 4/15, then what? Will you end up in a lottery, no matter how many miles you put in? Or will you discover after the fact that you could have qualified by doing more/longer rides, but never knew the number until you were already bumped?

This is a big goal for so many people. Don't they deserve a way to work their way in without waiting and wondering?

A lot of the 1200Ks have a lottery-style selection process now. You apply on or by a certain date, and the first 200 (or whatever) drawn from the hat are in.

So that's exactly what I'd propose. Have it so that those who ride 400K in 2010 can apply on April 15th (as is the case) and if more than 5000 apply on that day, make it a lottery ... the first 5000 drawn out of the hat are in.

In Australia it is different, but in Canada by April 15, 2011 a person would be lucky to have completed the 200K out of the required qualifying SR series. So if that person has ridden a 400K in 2010, then maybe just a 200K before April 15, and applies ... and doesn't get in ... that person doesn't have to ride anymore. One or two rides and that person would know one way or the other.

----------------

But according to this (if I'm reading the formula correctly): http://www.rusa.org/pbp-2011-entries.html ... the quotas for the US will depend on how much US riders ride in 2010 vs. how much other people in other countries ride in 2010. And the quotas for Australia will depend on how much Australian riders ride in 2010 vs. how much other people in other countries ride in 2010, etc.

So ... suppose there were 100 Australian applicants in 2007, and are 120 applicants in 2011.
And suppose all the people in all the countries ride 100,000 km in 2010, and the people in the 13 largest countries ride 75,000 of those km in 2010.
And suppose in 2006, the 13 largest countries rode 60,000 km, and all the countries rode 80,000 km.

(all numbers are just guesses here ... nothing based on reality, necessarily)

The formula is then 100 * (120/100) * (100,000/75,000) * (60,000/80,000) = 100 * 1.2 * 1.333 * 0.75 = 120 people.

So in that case, all 120 applicants would be in.

But one country can't really say that everyone needs to do a certain number of km to be assured of getting in, because they don't know what everyone else in the world is doing.

At least that's how I'm reading it.

Australia is just making a speculation that 2500 km per person applying will be enough.


EDIT: Just an additional note for those who have not ridden previous PBPs ... in the past the application date was June 15th. It was a scramble to get an SR series in before that in Canada, and some of our brevets were done in snowy and cold conditions to do it. Nevertheless, everyone applied on June 15th, and then sat on pins and needles waiting to hear if they were in or not. In 2003 we were told that there would be a 4000 rider cap. That wasn't true, but that's what we were told. In 2007 we were told that there would be a 4500 rider cap, then a 4800 rider cap, then a 5000 rider cap. Again, not true, but those were the rumours coming down the pipe. So we were never 100% sure if we'd get in or not.

I'm not sure how it was in other countries or even other parts of Canada, but in the Canadian Prairies, we waited and waited and waited to get our packages. Both times everyone else I was in contact with had their acceptance packages ages before me. Both times I didn't get mine until the end of July/beginning of August. So I had to go ahead and book my flight etc. etc. without knowing if I was in or not.

A lottery system after an April 15th application would mean that everyone would know whether they were in or not much earlier. If there were more than 5000 applicants on April 15th, the lottery could take place within a couple weeks and the list could be posted by the beginning of May. People could actually make plans for the summer knowing whether they were going or not.

Just note... I didn't blame Audax Australia for anything.

I understand that logistics are imposing restrictions on the organisers (ie, local government is finding the logistics of the event difficult with more than 5000 participants).

But the imposition of such complexities on the event is making it much more elitist than it ever was. Remember, this is not qualifying for a free ride to the Olympics... we're paying to participate. Seemingly, gone are the days when a competent long-distance cyclist could do the SR and join up without doing any more than enjoying a ride every day.

But one might seriously consider joining up with the randonneuring organisation of another country that isn't in the top 13, and doing the qualifying in absentia... just the SR and that's it.

In Australia it is different, but in Canada by April 15, 2011 a person would be lucky to have completed the 200K out of the required qualifying SR series. So if that person has ridden a 400K in 2010, then maybe just a 200K before April 15, and applies ... and doesn't get in ... that person doesn't have to ride anymore. One or two rides and that person would know one way or the other.



To get access to earlier rides, can a Canadian member, say an Ontario Randonneur, participate in US events that might be in more temperate climes, and have those count?

Similarly (well, almost!) for Americans. As a Michigander, I have no in-state brevets I can sign up for. Ohio is adjacent and has a RUSA chapter, and Illinois and Wisconsin do as well, but perhaps I can do some in Ontario to get some more experience? I'm not on a PBP qualifying track, I just want to learn the craft at this point, but successful completion is key.

Of course, ACP hasn't announced what the final rules are yet either. The often stated rules were a "for example..." excercise on their part. I'm guessing that in the U.S., anyone that does an SR series next year will definitely be ok. The people that will have an issue are those that come out of the woodwork only in PBP years and do an SR series to qualify and then dissapear. Since we don't know what the quota will be, if any, and we don't know what the rules will be, if any, I guess it's not surprising that RUSA has been hesitant to announce their rules. The Australians had to do something because they are in their season.

My position is that the single worst idea is a lottery with no qualification requirements. The 1200k's that I'm aware of that have done that end up with a lot fewer people than they would otherwise have. People sign up because they think they may want to do the ride, but have no commitment. Many may have never even done a qualifying series, but the organizers have no way to know.

Nick,

Thanks for the encouragement. I plan to stick with this, but do the organizers realize that they aren't helping the growth of the sport by creating what seem to be gratuitously difficult courses? At minimum, they should let people know up front how much climbing there is on the various rides.

Seattle Int'l Randonneurs has some crazy climbing routes, but also recognizes that the sport shouldn't be exclusively for those who are gluttons for punishment. This year, the summer series 600k was the Mountain route (RAMROD followed by Windy Ridge, White Pass, Chinook Pass and Cayuse Pass.) It's over 27,000' total IIRC.
It was balanced by the Spring 600k which had no mountain passes and ~10,000' of gain.

I did the Spring 300k which had about 9500' of climbing, but nothing steep and everything gradual. The Summer 300k had less climbing overall, but a 25 mile, 4100' climb up Mt. Baker.

And, yes... SiR does make it known if a route is excessively hilly, so people aren't showing up totally unaware.

I don't think they are too worried about growing the sport. It's already got growing pains, ie PBP and rider limits on many rides. Back when I started doing brevets there were maybe 500 people in the whole US doing brevets. Now there are probably 500 people in the Seattle club alone. :)

I don't know what a reasonable cut-off would be. My point is, you should have some number, however difficult it needs to be, that assures entry. You could go after that goal, knowing you are in if you complete it.


The problem is that the ACP organizers are up against limits imposed by local governments. If the local governments say "5000 and not a rider more", what can the ACP do? If they say "2500kms in 2010 and a SR series in 2011 and you are guaranteed entry" and 6000 riders go out and do that, the ACP will have to turn away 1000 people who were "guaranteed" entry. That wouldn't go over well at all.

They need to let people know as early as possible whether or not they are accepted, but they can't make any guarantees at this point. Having entry dates based on distance ridden this year makes a lot of sense to me. A lottery also makes some sense, as long as it is done early enough next year so people know whether or not to make plans. But they can't make any guarantees yet.

To get access to earlier rides, can a Canadian member, say an Ontario Randonneur, participate in US events that might be in more temperate climes, and have those count?

Similarly (well, almost!) for Americans. As a Michigander, I have no in-state brevets I can sign up for. Ohio is adjacent and has a RUSA chapter, and Illinois and Wisconsin do as well, but perhaps I can do some in Ontario to get some more experience? I'm not on a PBP qualifying track, I just want to learn the craft at this point, but successful completion is key.

Yes, definitely.

There's something called the International Super Randonneur award which encourages participants to do brevets in many different countries:
http://aukweb.net/isr/index.htm

I'm #51 on the list with a 1200 3-Country award ... but awards are given for shorter distances and fewer countries.


If we could work it into our schedule, I'd like to do a randonnee in New Zealand or Japan in the next year or two. We'll see.

The problem is that the ACP organizers are up against limits imposed by local governments. If the local governments say "5000 and not a rider more", what can the ACP do? If they say "2500kms in 2010 and a SR series in 2011 and you are guaranteed entry" and 6000 riders go out and do that, the ACP will have to turn away 1000 people who were "guaranteed" entry. That wouldn't go over well at all.

They need to let people know as early as possible whether or not they are accepted, but they can't make any guarantees at this point. Having entry dates based on distance ridden this year makes a lot of sense to me. A lottery also makes some sense, as long as it is done early enough next year so people know whether or not to make plans. But they can't make any guarantees yet.

Well, that makes a lot of sense. However tough the requirements, you really could not guarantee entry. But, I don't see how that leads to a lottery as the right answer.

I think a decent analogy is the Kentucky Derby. Everyone wants in, but they can only take twenty. Yet, every trainer knows up front that earnings in graded stakes are the way the field is chosen. So, they can enter more or richer races to move up the list.

If RUSA would give us a method of judgement now, we would know what to do to move up the list. A lottery system does not reward effort or ability. People can spend years pointing to this one event, only to be in a raffle? Most miles, most rides, longest rides, anything we know up front would be better.

Well, that makes a lot of sense. However tough the requirements, you really could not guarantee entry. But, I don't see how that leads to a lottery as the right answer.

I think a decent analogy is the Kentucky Derby. Everyone wants in, but they can only take twenty. Yet, every trainer knows up front that earnings in graded stakes are the way the field is chosen. So, they can enter more or richer races to move up the list.

If RUSA would give us a method of judgement now, we would know what to do to move up the list. A lottery system does not reward effort or ability. People can spend years pointing to this one event, only to be in a raffle? Most miles, most rides, longest rides, anything we know up front would be better.

But it's not about what RUSA does ... the decision is made by the ACP based on what ALL the countries who participate in the PBP do. If Australia, Canada, and 10 other of the 13 largest countries have a lot of riders who want to do the PBP, that may mean that RUSA may have to send fewer participants. From what I've read on the RUSA site, they are assuming that if the US riders do more rides and longer distances they might have a greater chance of getting in ... but no one will know anything for sure until about next November when the 2010 rides are all complete and tallied up because we need the 2010 numbers to complete that formula in the link I posted earlier.

Anyway, it isn't a lottery system which is a pity because then we wouldn't have to put in much effort and we'd know one way or the other much sooner. In the past we trained for the PBP, did our SR series, sent in our applications on June 15th, and crossed our fingers and hoped we'd be accepted. I didn't get my acceptance package until 2 weeks before I left for France either time ... I had to book flights and make arrangements both times on spec that it would all be OK. With a lottery system a person would know by May instead of the end of July.

. . .
So ... suppose there were 100 Australian applicants in 2007, and are 120 applicants in 2011.
And suppose all the people in all the countries ride 100,000 km in 2010, and the people in the 13 largest countries ride 75,000 of those km in 2010.
And suppose in 2006, the 13 largest countries rode 60,000 km, and all the countries rode 80,000 km.

(all numbers are just guesses here ... nothing based on reality, necessarily)

The formula is then 100 * (120/100) * (100,000/75,000) * (60,000/80,000) = 100 * 1.2 * 1.333 * 0.75 = 120 people.

So in that case, all 120 applicants would be in.

. . .My French is not very good, and you appear better informed than me on ACP rules / guidelines, but I think you may want to revisit your interpretation of:
(a) "No inscrits du pays en 2007",
(b) "No inscrits maxi pour 2011",
(c) "No inscrits total en 2007".

Only (a) is "du pays" (e.g., Austrailian registered riders in 2007).

It appears that (b) and (c) to refer to the TOTAL registered riders from all countries, or perhaps, registered riders from the "big-13" countries. The example you constructed used Austrailian "du pays" numbers for terms (b) and (c).

If there is a "hard 5000 limit", then (b) will be less than 5000 because as Rowan obliquely referenced, the "non-big-13" countries are not limited. The actual number for (c), inscrits for all countries was 5312 (of which 5160 started and 3603 finished). I did not attempt to determine the inscrits for only the "big-13".

For a simple calculation, assume (a) = 100, (b) = 5000, and (c) = 5312. Then the simplified formula becomes:

100 x ( 5000 / 5312 ) = 100 x ~ 0.94 = 94.

Well, that makes a lot of sense. However tough the requirements, you really could not guarantee entry. But, I don't see how that leads to a lottery as the right answer.

I think a decent analogy is the Kentucky Derby. Everyone wants in, but they can only take twenty. Yet, every trainer knows up front that earnings in graded stakes are the way the field is chosen. So, they can enter more or richer races to move up the list.

If RUSA would give us a method of judgement now, we would know what to do to move up the list. A lottery system does not reward effort or ability. People can spend years pointing to this one event, only to be in a raffle? Most miles, most rides, longest rides, anything we know up front would be better.

Just basing it on miles of brevets ridden isn't really fair, either. Not everyone has equal access to brevet opportunities.

I'm in the SF bay area, where there are no less that 4 RUSA clubs within a few hours' drive (SF, Santa Cruz, Davis, and Santa Rosa). all putting on at lest a full series, and with no date conflicts. If I had sufficient motivation (and endurance), I could do 8000km of official ACP brevets without having to drive more than 2 hours to any of the brevets.

On the other hand, there are riders who have to drive much farther to get to their nearest RUSA club, which might only be putting on a single SR series, so that person would have a very hard time doing any more than 1500km.

Basing it only on distance wouldn't give everyone the same opportunity.

Australia has the 2500 km of randonnees per rider suggestion for 2010. Rowan and I did a quick calculation of how much it might cost us to do that much riding in the form of randonnees, and it could easily be up around $2000. There's the cost of our memberships, the cost of each randonnee/brevet, the accommodation near the start finish area for even the shortest rides, the fuel we burn to get to the events, and the lost pay for days off to do longer events.

Pursuing a spot on the PBP ride is not an inexpensive venture!

For me, 1000K randonnees and 1200Ks like the VanIsle or Last Chance or other smaller ones are increasing in their appeal.


To go along with the original intent of this thread ... telling each other our 2010 brevet/randonnee plans ... if I could get into decent shape in the next few months, I might be tempted to do a 1000K. I did one in Manitoba way, way back in 2004, and enjoyed the distance and the ride in general.

I'm going to plan on a full SR series, and maybe the Central Coast 1000k being put on by the Santa Cruz Randonneurs in June. Maybe. I'd really like to do at least a 1000K this year, I think it will make me much more confident (and prepared) for doing PBP next year.

Machka and I don't really consult on our posts before making them. Honest!

However, of all the longer rides I have done, the 1000s have actually brought me more pleasure than the 1200s.

If you take your fully allotted time, you can wrap upa ride in a smidge over three days, so you can relax (sleep) for the remainder of that fourth day.

The interesting thing with the 1000s is the average speed arrangement. The minimum average speed up to 600km is 15km/h (as per other events), but for the next 400 to the finish, it drops to 11.4km/h.

That sure takes the pressure off. On the 1200s, the average, I think, past 600 and up to 1000km is 13.5km.h, and thereafter to the finish is drops to 11.4km/h.

There are several options for 1000s this year in Australia. Several are combined with 1200s.

I really would like to finish a 1200 sooner rather than later, however, so I can get my final qualification for the International Super Randonneur award. Maybe a 1000 AND a 1200 could be on the agenda...