Great Lakes - Winnteka "ravine"

edit: yeah, yeah it's "winnetka." nothing like appropriating native names for our white-bread towns...

I was talking about riding north to someone, and they stopped me with "you're not going to ride into the ravine along Sheridan!?" He looked at me like there was a hole in the time-space continuum along that route.

What is there in this stretch of road (north of Tower Rd) that compelled whomever to ban bikes on this section? Now that most of Sheridan between me and there has been resurfaced and is quite enjoyable to ride along, I have ridden out there. being a law-abiding citizen, I altered my route.

I haven't seen the road, but what's back there? How long is the bike-free section? If it's not that long, I may just go through it next time. Is it dangerous back there, or is it some kind of gated-community type effort at self-serving traffic diversion? I would like to cut through there on some of my rides, both out and back.

edit: a video on youtube, though not the best view, shows this area to be wholly unremarkable, leading me to think the rich people back there just didn't want bikes on the road...hence my irritation.

I drove through there on the way back from one of the Superweek races when the Sheriden Rd thread was hot. That route is *AWESOME*. Narrow, twisty. Well worth a ticket should you get caught IMHO. :thumb: Of course, there's no place to ride once you get on the other side, so you would simply have to turn around and ride back the way you came. :D

(easy for me to say since I live 60 miles away from there)

How can bicycles be banned from a public roadway? The only reason I can think of is that this stretch is designated expressway.

I grew up 15 mi south of there, in Rogers Park, and to pedal that stretch of Sheridan, from Devon Avenue all the way up to Highland Park or Lake Forest was one of my favorite regular rides. Sheridan is a 2-lane road lined mostly with houses (GREAT houses!). The ravine follows a dip in the land, has a significant grade, and is twisty and blind. I felt it was navigable as a kid if I stayed at the right side. If modern roadies are trying to ride two-up, that would block traffic badly on a narrow road with blind corners. It was 35 mph speed limit on approach, and 20 mph in the ravine. I'm surprised I still have a drivers license, with the way I treated that road while on my motorcycle!

I don't know the legal basis for banning bicycles from Sheridan, but those suburbs are some of the wealthiest in Chicagoland, and are right up there considering the rest of the US. Money talks, as we know.

I grew up 15 mi south of there, in Rogers Park, and to pedal that stretch of Sheridan, from Devon Avenue all the way up to Highland Park or Lake Forest was one of my favorite regular rides. Sheridan is a 2-lane road lined mostly with houses (GREAT houses!). The ravine follows a dip in the land, has a significant grade, and is twisty and blind. I felt it was navigable as a kid if I stayed at the right side. If modern roadies are trying to ride two-up, that would block traffic badly on a narrow road with blind corners. It was 35 mph speed limit on approach, and 20 mph in the ravine. I'm surprised I still have a drivers license, with the way I treated that road while on my motorcycle!

I don't know the legal basis for banning bicycles from Sheridan, but those suburbs are some of the wealthiest in Chicagoland, and are right up there considering the rest of the US. Money talks, as we know.

Yes, money does talk, but I'm suspecting it is a genuine safety concern here. I have heard that people drive particularly idiotically through the ravine. if that's true, and the road is narrow and blind, then it may just be a practical matter. Add driveways to a narrow, twisty road, and you've go a bad mix. Then again, if the spd limit really is 20, maybe it ought to just be enforced. In that case, a cyclist could hardly be deemed to be holding up traffic.

As for the legal basis for banning bikes from roads, I think communities have the right to do so as long equivalent (get from a to b) routes exist. It's similar to banning trucks or other street-legal vehicles. Ridge in Evanston, has a no-bike section. There are other, more bikeable N/S roads nearby, and you wouldn't (well, I wouldn't) really want to ride on that section of Ridge anyway. But, what if you live along that stretch and commute by bike?

I am fine with an artery here and there being a no-bike zone, but it would really be better to include bikes in planning. Banning bikes is really more of a post-hoc fix for bad planning. When Ridge was torn up and resurfaced, they left the lanes (2 each direction) very, very narrow. You would necessarily obstruct traffic if you rode it during traffic, as the lanes are barely a car wide and there is no shoulder.

Thanks for satisfying my curiosity as to the infamous ravine.

Yes, money does talk, but I'm suspecting it is a genuine safety concern here. I have heard that people drive particularly idiotically through the ravine. if that's true, and the road is narrow and blind, then it may just be a practical matter. Add driveways to a narrow, twisty road, and you've go a bad mix. Then again, if the spd limit really is 20, maybe it ought to just be enforced. In that case, a cyclist could hardly be deemed to be holding up traffic.

As for the legal basis for banning bikes from roads, I think communities have the right to do so as long equivalent (get from a to b) routes exist. It's similar to banning trucks or other street-legal vehicles. Ridge in Evanston, has a no-bike section. There are other, more bikeable N/S roads nearby, and you wouldn't (well, I wouldn't) really want to ride on that section of Ridge anyway. But, what if you live along that stretch and commute by bike?

I am fine with an artery here and there being a no-bike zone, but it would really be better to include bikes in planning. Banning bikes is really more of a post-hoc fix for bad planning. When Ridge was torn up and resurfaced, they left the lanes (2 each direction) very, very narrow. You would necessarily obstruct traffic if you rode it during traffic, as the lanes are barely a car wide and there is no shoulder.

Thanks for satisfying my curiosity as to the infamous ravine.

Well, Sheridan is a very old road, as old as any in the area. Planning was of a different sort 100 years ago. Nobody is likely to widen the road in the North Shore suburbs, that money thing again. Actually, one would not necessarily block traffic. Same thing on Ridge: the lanes are 9 feet there, and most cars are 1.8 m (6 ft) wide, and less for subcompacts - not a good situation, but lane blockage is not guaranteed. (for my job I had to contact the Evanston city engineer and find out some road dimensions) There aren't any driveways in the ravine. Granted, Green Bay is an available alternative. I think bike paths have been set up as well, since I left.

There are clearly safety issues, and I think I alluded to them. Fact remains, that a skilled cyclist can negotiate that road without crash numerous times, if he is careful and sensible. I did that on a near-daily basis one summer. I assume that since I left Chicago, in 1981, there have been not-so-smart cyclists there either causing backups or getting injured.

Same for Ridge, Howard to past Church. I used to ride that when I was in 8th grade - foolish, but kids are immortal, right? That was my route from my house to my favorite hobby shop on Davis Street (gone now). Never hit. Same for Ridge in Chicago, Ashland to Broadway.

Bike and moped traffic was banned on that section of sheridan rd about 25 yrs ago as a safety issue. The road thru the ravine is narrow, steep and with blind turns - no shoulder. And there are drivewasy (steep driveways) going up the ravine to private residences. There is an alternate bike route around the ravine. Sheridan rd gets a lot of weekend bike traffic from weekend road warriors so I guess the Winetka police keep a good eye on that section.

[quote=Road Fan;10039110]Well, Sheridan is a very old road, as old as any in the area. Planning was of a different sort 100 years ago. Nobody is likely to widen the road in the North Shore suburbs, that money thing again. Actually, one would not necessarily block traffic. Same thing on Ridge: the lanes are 9 feet there, and most cars are 1.8 m (6 ft) wide, and less for subcompacts - not a good situation, but lane blockage is not guaranteed. (for my job I had to contact the Evanston city engineer and find out some road dimensions) There aren't any driveways in the ravine. Granted, Green Bay is an available alternative. I think bike paths have been set up as well, since I left.
/QUOTE]

I agree there are obvious safety issues, but I didn't really know the story behind the ravine specifically.

Ridge is a weird one to me. Basically, the lanes are substandard width, if I am correct. That implies that the cyclist is actually entitled to the entire lane. Thus, the authorities banned from the road to prevent them from exercising these rights. I am not really complaining; there are other, more enjoyable streets around here, and I think good city planning would allow for the occasional higher-speed artery, which
may make it less suitable for cycling.

The trouble is that when you have one community banning bikes from roads, for whatever reason, I fear it will spread and we will be marginalized even more. It's hard to compromise when the compromise always seems to have you giving up something you once had the right to. It's like the VC argument against bike paths. Because of their existence, people think that's where we belong.

[quote=Road Fan;10039110]Well, Sheridan is a very old road, as old as any in the area. Planning was of a different sort 100 years ago. Nobody is likely to widen the road in the North Shore suburbs, that money thing again. Actually, one would not necessarily block traffic. Same thing on Ridge: the lanes are 9 feet there, and most cars are 1.8 m (6 ft) wide, and less for subcompacts - not a good situation, but lane blockage is not guaranteed. (for my job I had to contact the Evanston city engineer and find out some road dimensions) There aren't any driveways in the ravine. Granted, Green Bay is an available alternative. I think bike paths have been set up as well, since I left.
/QUOTE]

I agree there are obvious safety issues, but I didn't really know the story behind the ravine specifically.

Ridge is a weird one to me. Basically, the lanes are substandard width, if I am correct. That implies that the cyclist is actually entitled to the entire lane. Thus, the authorities banned from the road to prevent them from exercising these rights. I am not really complaining; there are other, more enjoyable streets around here, and I think good city planning would allow for the occasional higher-speed artery, which
may make it less suitable for cycling.

The trouble is that when you have one community banning bikes from roads, for whatever reason, I fear it will spread and we will be marginalized even more. It's hard to compromise when the compromise always seems to have you giving up something you once had the right to. It's like the VC argument against bike paths. Because of their existence, people think that's where we belong.

Standards are hard to find, and not very concrete when found. 9 feet is about the narrowest recommended for any situation or speed, according to the AASHTO (American Association of State Highway Transportation Officials) handbook. It also recommends (about as strong as the language gets) if I recall 10.5 feet minimum. Each state has independent authority over road design and maintainance. The AASHTO Handbook is the closest thing to a national standard on road and highway design that the USA has. Other countries (Japan, Germany, Sweden, France and many others) have national standards.

I spoke to a few road engineers who assured me the Ridge lanes had to be at least 10.5 because that was the current "regulation." But I knew this couldn't be true because of my experience on that road (cars as well as bikes). The city engineer told me his department would love to widen the road to 52 feet or so (four lanes plus bikes at the margins) but the city will not allow it - trees, history, residential feel, streetscape design, classy looking area, et cetera. You have to admit, it does have a timeless elegance.

As balkanized as the North Shore might appear, it's nothing compared to the Los Angeles and Oakland/Berkeley areas. Every municipality has very broad control over traffic signals and signage. Ther's no possibility of harmonizing and say, synchronizing traffic lights across town boundaries. At least in the '70s Green Bay Road was very well sync'd from Evanston into Highland Park.

I'm a fan of VC as the basis of a safe cycling strategy, but not as a prescription for practice, to be followed as a set of laws. Gotta be observant, insightful, and creative.

Your last comment just highlights the need for something like regular public service announcements on local media to state what the Illinois bicycling road use law is, so people (cyclists as well as drivers!) can at least be aware of law versus opinion. It might be my opinion that I can just help myself to food at the convenience store because Hey! I'm hungry here!, but I should not be surprised if I have to speak to some cops.

I think there also needs to be some public information about the compromises inherent in choosing road versus bike only lane versus sidewalk versus bike path (separated) versus MUP.

One last thing about the ravine, it was a nice descent of perhaps 60 feet, and a not too hard climb back up to level ground. It doesn't take you down to lake level, that's prob another 50 feet.

Happy riding!

Back in the early eighties, I managed an LBS within 5 miles of the Ravines. They had to close them to bikes because so many nubes crashed at the bottom. One of my customers spent a week at Evanston Hospital after his crash. The ride down is very dangerous for nubes and unsuspecting riders because the road is frequently wet from the H2O springs dumping on the road and in the morning there's always lots condesation. The climb out is a good workout.

As much as I liked to ride the Ravines, when they closed it I was happy. Too many riders took the ambulance out....

The ravine is actually in Hubbard Woods, here is what the entrance looks like if traveling southbound from the Glencoe. In 1978 I was given two tickets at one time while driving an Alfa Romeo through that section.

It's a great little stretch of road, but not worth the likely ticket.


http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll210/wildcat-bucket/IMG_0161.jpg

The ravine is actually in Hubbard Woods, here is what the entrance looks like if traveling southbound from the Glencoe. In 1978 I was given two tickets at one time while driving an Alfa Romeo through that section.

It's a great little stretch of road, but not worth the likely ticket.


http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll210/wildcat-bucket/IMG_0161.jpg

Me, too, in 1974 in a Fiat. It was only one ticket, however. At least with a 5-speed you have some reasonable chance of keeping it below 25 mph on teh way down!

I drove through there on the way back from one of the Superweek races when the Sheriden Rd thread was hot. That route is *AWESOME*. Narrow, twisty. Well worth a ticket should you get caught IMHO. :thumb: Of course, there's no place to ride once you get on the other side, so you would simply have to turn around and ride back the way you came. :D

(easy for me to say since I live 60 miles away from there)

I don't get that. Don't you Chicago area guys ride two-lane roads any more?

In this case (bold text) I mean that the traffic was really bad or something making it very undesirable to ride, I don't recall, I don't live there. I actually think this is the only two lane road left in all of Chicago! :p

In this case (bold text) I mean that the traffic was really bad or something making it very undesirable to ride, I don't recall, I don't live there. I actually think this is the only two lane road left in all of Chicago! :p

In the North Shore area there are still quite a few, but the main reason you're wrong is Winnetka and the other NS suburbs are not in Chicago.

Excuuuuuuuse ME !