Bicycle Mechanics - Why do shops buy crappy Park torque wrenches?

Okay, I've just got to ask this one. Why do so many shops have absolutely crappy Park torque wrenches, both the cheap beam type and the micrometer 'click' type?

In any other hobby, be it motorcycles, aviation, etc. the guys owning the equipment are very knowledgeable about how critical torque specs are on soft alloy components, and people consider a quality torque wrench absolutely critical to working on their own stuff.

Now with a shop, a professional repair facility, how does it make sense to have low quality torque wrenches? I don't care which Park torque wrench they might have, or even a Pedros, but why even bother going with such low end tools?

A quality Torque wrench is a precision tool. The funny thing is that the original patented torque wrenches of around 1938, Dial type, are probably all more accurate than anything hanging in just about any bike shop in the country in 2009.

The funny thing is that you can pick up a Snap-On dial type torque wrench, which is actually made by Precision Instruments, off eBay for less than you can buy one of these inaccurate crappy Park or Pedros wrenches. Only about $150 you can get a 0-600 in/lb or 0-150 in/lb dial type Precision Instruments torque wrench from Sears.com. These are the people that invented the torque wrench and held the original patent, they've made every torque wrench for Snap-On 'till the nineties, and they are one of the vendors for Snap-On, Cromwell, MAC, MATCO, to this day. Essentially they are the standard. There are good wrenches from Proto, S&K, and others, but Precision Instruments is the real deal. 2% accuracy. Try that with a Pedros or a Park.

The Precision Instruments split beam torque wrenches are considered the 'best' for those that want a CLICK style wrench by guys work on their own Porsches, Ferraris, and high end motorcycles. Unlike a micrometer torque wrench, it won't go out of calibration if you don't immediately return it to its lowest setting after every use (a complete pain), and yes this means that almost every Park micrometer torque wrench in the land is completely out of calibration because the wrenches using 'em haven't a clue about how to use or handle a torque wrench properly.

Which begs the question, why is it that guys that own a Porshe that's only worth a couple thousand dollars know enough to use good tools, and they wouldn't dream of going to a shop that had crappy precision tools, but guys that have high zoot bicycles think if it says Park its good?

Why is that?

You don't need a bicycle specific torque wrench, you need a torque wrench that actually works and is accurate. That ain't Pedros or Park, so why does the cycling crowd pay good money for these low end inaccurate torque wrenches?

Last question (for those working in shop), since you'll need to use the torque wrench everyday. How often does your shop have the Park or Pedros torque wrench calibrated? My guess is never...

Because if they did, they'd have the paperwork that would prompt them to buy a torque wrench that wasn't a Park or a Pedros.

They say in the other hobbies when you need a precision tool get a Precision Tool, but why in cycling do you never see the Snap-On, Mac, Proto, S&K, CDI, and the Precision Tool torque wrenches but the cheap Park and Pedros crap?

I don't know why I get so frustrated with how incompetent most local bike shops are, but it just gets me going. :mad:

Something to think about the next time you pay the ridiculous shop rates at your LBS, which by the way are typically higher than what you'd pay a Porsche, Ducatti, or Volvo mechanic. Someone who actually has certified technical training, not someone who just 'learned in the shop'.

Thoughts?

I would like to buy one of your wrenches, sir!

i work on aircraft....and tq wrenches are barely used.
when we do, it sa snapon though

My shop rates are WAY lower than a porsche shop rate.

PS- you make a porsche 944 turbo look low maintenance.

i work on aircraft....and tq wrenches are barely used.
when we do, it sa snapon though

That's about the most ridiculous thing I've read in the Bike Forums. On aircraft EVERYTHING has to be torqued to spec. There are regulations regarding how oftern torque wrenches used on aircraft HAVE to be calibrated, what happens if a wrench is dropped etc...

You can always pick up a great $200~450 torque wrench from the aviation liquidators after each tool has exceeded its end of calibration cycle. The tools are completely repairable and a good calibration facility will demonstrate that they are still in spec.

In the military they won't even allow a torque wrench to touch a plane until the brand new wrench has been checked and calibrated even new from the factory. In many high volume aviation companies technicians have to check their torque tools against a bench tester multiple times EVERY day. That you're representing that you wrench on aviation equipment and don't spend half your day with a high quality torque wrench in hand is absurd.

My shop rates are WAY lower than a porsche shop rate.

PS- you make a porsche 944 turbo look low maintenance.

A 944 is a Porsche the way a Windor is a Cinellli.

That's about the most ridiculous thing I've read in the Bike Forums. On aircraft EVERYTHING has to be torqued to spec. There are regulations regarding how oftern torque wrenches used on aircraft HAVE to be calibrated, what happens if a wrench is dropped etc...

You can always pick up a great $200~450 torque wrench from the aviation liquidators after each tool has exceeded its end of calibration cycle. The tools are completely repairable and a good calibration facility will demonstrate that they are still in spec.

In the military they won't even allow a torque wrench to touch a plane until the brand new wrench has been checked and calibrated even new from the factory. In many high volume aviation companies technicians have to check their torque tools against a bench tester multiple times EVERY day. That you're representing that you wrench on aviation equipment and don't spend half your day with a high quality torque wrench in hand is absurd.

we can drop a tq wrench from 9 feet and not need to calibrate it....
that being said
cheap tq wrenches are fine if you know the calibration
if you have somethign to gauge it off of, then whatever if it works it works

tq wrenches arent used as much as you think it is.....

Torque specs on bicycles are not that critical. Although I own a torque wrench (for automotive use) I don't bother using it on my bikes. I like to torque things down by feel.

... the ridiculous shop rates at your LBS, which by the way are typically higher than what you'd pay a Porsche, Ducatti, or Volvo mechanic.



That's about the most ridiculous thing I've read in the Bike Forums.

Granted I've never brought my Porsche in for repair, but I don't know of any auto mechanics who will pick up thier tools for the price a competant bike mechanic charges for a tune up.

I have been waiting on a rant like this.

I work for a company that provides equipment to the Nuclear Power Industry, both civilian and military. My company lives and dies by .0001" measurements and torque values. The technicians that use those torque wrenches under go hours of training and testing. We don't have a torque wrench that cost less than $500, and they are calibrated every 3 months or anytime we suspect them to be in accurate. Adjustable "snap" wrenches are not allowed, only balance beam, dial, and internally fixed snap (and then only in special case with special training.)

I work on my own bike, and I don't use a torque wrench. It just isn't necessary if you know what you are doing. Using a cheap uncalibrated torque wrench blindly is far more risky.

And to the OP - A Craftsman torque wrench can not even be calibrated in our system, because it does not have guaranteed repeatability.

I sold tools, good torque wrenchs, really good ones cost closer to two hundred than to one hundred, we know that. Cheap ones I sold for fifty bucks, clickers. Beam type were preferred by the most discerning even when the clickers or dial types had been out for awhile.
In one of those very same stores, we rented half the small building to a bike shop.
I never would've even mentioned utill this post that the mechanics at the shop hated Park tools. I think that they're OK so it's not me talking but the bike mechanics.
Campy tools were easier on their hands, didn't burr nearly as easily and unlike the Park, weren't "disposable". Park has a virtual monopoly. They ARE a "generous" Co. & I respect them.
Pertaining to Porche, one of my specialties, made a "significant" part of my livelyhood in those cars for 25 years. Though the 924 was an "Audi", right down to the engine; 944s were NO joke. An entirely different automobile. The Turbos were awesome, just don't miss a gear.
Bike mechanics are under appreciated and with all due respect, are under-paid.
Then again, that just MIGHT be said for auto mechanics (except dealer ones).

wow.... *hangs his head*

god I hope you don't come into my shop....

More to the point. Would you like to be charged $50 to have me install a stem onto your bicycle? Because I will if that's what it'll take for my shop to be able to afford to buy one of those $500 torque wrenches. Otherwise, a stem install is $12, unless I have to put new cables onto your controls.

So... you pick; $12 and I use a Park Torque Wrench, or $50 and I use a snap-on?

On postview... your statements about bicycle mechanics and local bike shops is insulting. flagged, particularly since you're in MY town.

I can't see the catastrophic failure of a bicycle part causing serious injury or death like a car, bus, airplane, or nuclear device.

Bike shops charge a labor rate of $50-$70, with a minimum of $10-$15. Most automotive dealer shops are $100-$125.

To be blunt, bike components are not engineered like an aircraft or automotive component. Using stems as an example, who here believes that a Chinese stem maker is doing stringent engineering and validation of the clamping force per unit area their stem generates on the top ten most common handlebars and steer tubes on the market, of varying materials and compressibilities, and coming up with torque values based off that? Anyone?

The companies that do have something like a believable engineering department still don't always get it right. Campy UT cranks that loosen at the Hirth joint when torqued to their spec, for example. Of course, you're not supposed to expose them to sunlight either, according to the instruction sheet... :lol: Or Shimano left crankarms with a pinch-bolt torque spec range of 12-15nM... wow, a 20% range, we'd better make sure we get THAT one dead-on ;) I could go on... stuff that either loosens or may break when torqued to the "right" value.

In sum, if you have a well-engineered car, motorcycle, nuclear reactor, or aircraft, then you have a good reason to believe that the "official" torque specs have some engineering behind them, and to follow them carefully. With bikes, I haven't seen that in my ~20 years as a mechanic. So I don't think it's a huge crime to use lower-end torque wrenches in our environment. I have one Snap-On split-beam and one Craftsman myself, but sometimes my own judgement has to be the final authority.


Bike mechanics are under appreciated and with all due respect, are under-paid.

Preach it, brother! They work us to the bone in the on-season, then kick us to the curb... I should just go work as a janitor or something.

I can't see the catastrophic failure of a bicycle part causing serious injury or death like a car, bus, airplane, or nuclear device.

To be clear, it can and has. But, most shops cannot afford the nice 200 dollar syntace torque wrenches, or the $500 snap ons. We are not all "Exclusive Cycles", which is what it sounds like the OP likes to shop at.

I can't see the catastrophic failure of a bicycle part causing serious injury or death like a car, bus, airplane, or nuclear device.

+1

The only catastrophic failure I can think of occurring on a bicycle is a snapped front end which has nothing to do with torquing.

I've got a Norbar torque wrench (branded as Syntace). Nothing on a bike is super critical on torque that we need a $500 torque wrench.

PS- you make a porsche 944 turbo look low maintenance.

Nice.


The Turbos were awesome, just don't miss a gear.

Huh?

They are freakin' bicycles, not F-16s.
Where do you find "couple of thousand dollar Porches?"
We don't need no stinkin' torque wrenches!

Nice.



Huh?

you know, reving it to six, missing a gear by inadvertantly down-shifting........ guess you don't drive high perf. cars Huh ?

That use to be a problem on the older BMW M3, shift pattern was too tight.

Oh btw, the only thing that I use a torque wrench for is to put the square tapper cranks on the bottom bracket, otherwise I tend to put them on too loose and it rubs on the front derailluer.

Probably because employees abuse them so badly. Why let them ruin good ones? bk

Thoughts?

A bike shop guy took your lunch money and now you're on the internet trying to get even?

Anyone who's owned a Porsche would be ROFL at the suggestion that bike maintenance costs are even in the same universe as Porsche maintenance. I used to own a race modified 911SC. Complete bottom bracket disassembly (including a long soak in penetrating fluid to get the right cup off after 26 years), regreasing and reassembly and adjustment ... $30. Gearbox rebuild on my Porsche $5,000. A new set of spark leads cost $700.

I'll side with the learn to do it by feel crowd. I've spent many years working as a field engineer on printers, disk drives and other pretty intricate and complex machines and I've never even picked up a torque wrench.

PS: And yes, the 924/44/28s were (not so) affectionately know as 'water pumpers' in the Porsche club I belonged to, and definitely not considered real Porsches.

you know, reving it to six, missing a gear by inadvertantly down-shifting........ guess you don't drive high perf. cars Huh ?

I've owned a 944 turbo for 11 years (and do all my own maintenance plus modifications). Missing a gear as you describe is bad for any engine. I expressed some confusion at your statement as you seemed to imply that 944 turbos were more susceptible to missing a shift than any other car, or any other 944. Seeing as how all 944s used the same basic gearbox, that's a misguided assertion.

I don't really trust the torque specs that they give you anyway. A friend of mine installed a stem with one of the "real" torque wrenches, but the specification in the use manual was way too tight. He kept cranking on it until he snapped the stem bolt and put a huge crack in the faceplate. The manufacturer took care of him and replaced the stem (and then some), but they seemed rather surprised that someone was installing a stem with a real torque wrench.

I don't really trust the torque specs that they give you anyway. A friend of mine installed a stem with one of the "real" torque wrenches, but the specification in the use manual was way too tight. He kept cranking on it until he snapped the stem bolt and put a huge crack in the faceplate. The manufacturer took care of him and replaced the stem (and then some), but they seemed rather surprised that someone was installing a stem with a real torque wrench.

What stem? What was the torque spec?

i work on aircraft....and tq wrenches are barely used.
when we do, it sa snapon though

I wish I knew what airline? I'd never fly that one again!

Back when I was an auto mechanic, the normal shop rate was $60-$100/hour. Costs were based upon the times listed in the Mitchell Time Guide. According to that guide, it takes 3.5 hours to replace the timing belt on a Nissan Sentra. I could do it in 2 hours. At $80/hour, you're paying $200. At $22/hour, I was getting paid $55.00. (Mechanics only get paid when they're working on something, you know...)

At a bike shop, replacing a bottom bracket takes about half an hour. Shop rates are about $40-$80/hour, depending on location. Ergo, replacing a bottom bracket is $20-$40, typically. What if we all went by a book that said it took an hour to replace the BB? Would people pay $40-$80? A bike mechanic in this area makes $8-$12/hour. Should we put them on commission like auto mechanics? Lets see how many torque wrenches are used then. Time is money. Digging out and using a torque wrench takes time.

The fact is that bicycles are nowhere nearly as torque critical as cars or airplanes. Even cars aren't very torque-critical...just things like head bolts, rod & main cap bolts, and such. The people who are all anal about torquing stem faceplate bolts to 3nm are perfectly content to drive around in a car that has had the wheel lug nuts tightened by a guy with an impact wrench to anything from 60 ft/lbs to 180ft/lbs.

The only time torque is at all important on a bike is with carbon. That's because carbon sucks, and is much more prone to exploding in sunlight. :p

(BTW, as a former auto mechanic, I DO have $300-$500 torque wrenches in my bike shop.)

Fatso, I wouldn't let anyone without a torque wrench go anywhere near my newest $70 treasure.It is a "Paramount ha,ha" MTB series 30 -1992 I think- with the splatter paint.It is better than those cheezy Wisconsin made Paramounts because it weighs 8 lbs more, and it was made in Asia-somewhere.

Torque wrench on a freakin bike.

If the OP doesn't like the LBS he should do his own work and not waste time whining.They can be tedious to work on-speared by cables, filthy grunge on derailleurs, etc-but they are simple-100x simpler than any car.

best line i've ever heard regarding torque specs... from tech support at Giant regarding torque spec on seat collar. "10....everything's 10... You're a mechanic, you know what tight is." Awesome and true.

I cheap beam type torque wrench is totally adequate for anything on a bike. I use a 30 year old Craftsman bem type for BB cups, cassette lockrings and the Campy UT fixing bolt.

If you need a torque wrench for any other bolts, you're not much of a mechanic.

I replaced the front brake pads on my bike last night. There was a torque value for the little retaining screw. Something like 64 in/lbs.

I thought of this thread and just sighed. I wonder how many people decide to let the shop change their brakes because they don't have a torque wrench?

Because they get them at cost.

The flat-beam is the oldest, simplest and, according to some, the most accurate of all torque-wrench designs. It's still made in a wide variety of capacities, from small ounce-inch models to those with a top capacity of perhaps 300 pound-feet or more.

A torque wrench on a bicycle might be useful for someone who constantly applies too much torque and strips threads frequently. With a good sense of feel and some common sense this shouldn't happen.

I think that with the proper knowledge of fasteners, most things can be done without a torque wrench.

In a spot where you might damage something, like a carbon seatpost, you might want one. Really, the torque wrench is only there to give the mechanic some backup. If everything's done to spec, they can say they did it right. If you leave something on too loose and it comes off or gets damaged, then you're boned.

If I had a carbon dream machine, I'd probably get a torque wrench. I could also probably afford one, in that scenario.

I'd guess any real mechanic can get most things to an appropriate tightness by hand, and a roughly accurate torque wrench for other things is good enough.

I wish I knew what airline? I'd never fly that one again!

You simply do not understand that MANY maintenance operations involve a rivet gun, an Allen wrench, or a screw driver. Not every operation requires the use of a torque wrench. This comment applies to ALL aircraft.

Enjoy your trip by Greyhound bus... especially across some ocean ;-)

What stem? What was the torque spec?


It was a Performance Forte Road Stem, a couple of years ago. I think they fixed the manual since then. The guy who was installing the stem works for Roush Performance - he thought the torque spec was high when he was doing it, but was new to bicycles at the time, so he kept turning the bolt.

What proof do you offer that Park tools are so bad?

A bike shop guy took your lunch money and now you're on the internet trying to get even?

Hee hee:)

Time = money. The reason lots of shops don't have good techs is that many shop owners aren't business people enough to understand that you can't attract really solids techs when you are only charging $60/hr as a shop rate. I'd love to know what shop is charging more than a Porsche, Ducatti, or Volvo shop! Names please! Also, car/motorcycle mechs usually have to provide their own tools!

If I charge $100/hr, I can hire and keep good people and buy fancy wrenches and all, but what good is it when a shop opens up down the street that is short-sightedly charging barely enough to keep the doors open? Now, I just look overpriced. I may be God's gift to to bike mechanics, but I'd shortly be looking for a new job....

So, how much are you willing to pay for me to use a high-$$ torque wrench (setting and releasing tension on the wrench, too) when the time spent assembling a custom bike doubles? Just wondering.

A mis-torqued airplane part could kill lots of people. The economics of scale demand precautions. You have a much lower chance of being injured on your bike due to a mis-torqued part, but we're answering a rant about it......

I never knew so many bike people have a Porsche. I know of a guy that constantly over tightened bolts in a factory. Someone said get him a torque wrench so he stops. They did. Now he over tightens everything with the torque wrench. I suppose I am saying what good are they unless they will be used, and used properly. I also am wondering what was so improperly torqued that it led the op to go on such a rant?

we can drop a tq wrench from 9 feet and not need to calibrate it....


Correct, if you don't care a bit if it's accurate. Let us know though what planes you're working on so we don't fly on them. :)

Lemme guess... you put tailcones on Delta Jets?

http://www.star-telegram.com/857/story/1743530.html

It was a Performance Forte Road Stem, a couple of years ago. I think they fixed the manual since then. The guy who was installing the stem works for Roush Performance - he thought the torque spec was high when he was doing it, but was new to bicycles at the time, so he kept turning the bolt.

Interesting. I have one of those stems from a few years back. I'll have to dig it out and see what the torque specs are. I have a Truvativ stem with a single bolt clamping the steerer tube and it has a very high torque spec too. I installed it at that spec but on a steel steerer. As another random data point, the manual for my LOOK HSC4 fork spec's a max torque of 20 Nm for stem clamp bolts! I torque to 5 Nm like my Ritchey stem says to.

A point missed about getting a good "feel" for tightening fasteners, is you need a frame of reference and a lot of practice to achieve this skill. Being an experienced high end auto mechanic myself, we make our apprentices torque everything. Also keep in mind a torque wrench is usually only accurate in it's upper half of the range, and a lot of people use inappropriate sized torque wrenches to start with.

Also keep in mind a torque wrench is usually only accurate in it's upper half of the range, and a lot of people use inappropriate sized torque wrenches to start with.

The standard is 1/4 to 7/8 of its range in most military applications.

Or if you want to really be accurite,you can throw all of the torque wrenches away and use bolt stetch like the REAL pros do.

Torque wrenches are an educated guess.

Why do so many shops have absolutely crappy Park torque wrenches

...

Thoughts?

First thought: What a bogus question!

First, there's nothing "crappy" about the Park Tools wrenches. They do the job that they're designed for. If a tool does that, what more do you want? Bling? Bragging rights? Jewelry?

Look at torque specs themselves. They're very broad. Even the crappiest wrench is far more accurate than the variance of the spec itself. If the spec were much narrower, then maybe the accuracy of the tool would become an issue, but it's not and it isn't. (And if it were they likely wouldn't use a wrench anyway.)

Further, bike mechanics generally aren't very well paid. Nor are they stable enough to mortgage their futures with Snap-On or Mac accounts. When's the last time you saw a bike (shop) mechanic with a Snap-On tool chest?

Second thought: TROLL.