Bicycle Mechanics - Best Brakes?

Side pull. Center pull. Dual pivot. Which is best & why? Thanks.

Brakes that stop... (Just an opinion)

Seriously though, I have older bikes so I use alot of single pivot, side pulls. I adjust them properly and use real Scott Mathauser brake pads. I use good quality cables (they do make a difference for longevity but any cable can be used), I use Campy and Suntour and Dia-Compe brakes. All work perfectly fine.
I can adjust any brake and get it working properly, for the most part it isn't about the equipment, it's either 1) knowing how to adjust it, or 2) knowing how to use it.

http://sheldonbrown.com/gloss_sa-o.html#singlepivot (By, side-pull, I assume you mean traditional single-pivot, as opposed to...)
http://sheldonbrown.com/gloss_dr-z.html#dualpivot
http://sheldonbrown.com/gloss_ca-g.html#center-pull

Dura Ace calipers on the right rims with new pads = rollercoaster stoppage (about -7G or so).

Dual 6 piston hydraulic calipers operating against dual 320mm rotors..... That's what we find on modern sportbike motorcycles....:D

The caliper is merely a method of converting the pull of the cable to movement of the pads. It's the system of the caliper and the lever that counts. It's how the mechanical ratio is translated from the lever to the cable to the caliper to the pads. You can't just look at one part of this system and ask "what's best".

A design works well for a close fitting caliper around a racing tire may well not work worth a darn for a long reach that passes around a big fender and fat tire. For a given reach from the mounting bolt to the rim and with identical cable pull to pad movement distances there will be little or nothing to be gained from one design to the next. If they all produce the same pad travel from a given cable pull then they will all squeeze just as hard. The only difference will be how the cable is connected to the caliper. This is just a matter of leverage ratios.

Having said this some caliper designs produce more pad pressure for a given cable travel or force. But they do this by producing less pad travel distance for a given cable pull. These designs gain this by "moving the fulcrum under the lever". The price that's paid for this is a smaller amount of pad travel so you need to run with closer fitting pads because they'll move less distance.

Yo guys, what's the best tyre?
What's the best wrench?
What's the best bike?
What's the best wheel?
What's the best stem?
What's the best handlebar?
What's the best spoke?
What's the best rim?
What's the best saddle?

Dual 6 piston hydraulic calipers operating against dual 320mm rotors..... That's what we find on modern sportbike motorcycles....:D

I'm afraid it's more like : radial mounted 4-pod caliper these days.

Anyway, I'm of the opinion that brake pads matter more. Kool-Stop my choice.
As for "what's best", it's whatever that works as it should, whenever its supposed to every time.

man, trying to stop down an 8% grade in the rain hauling a 70# trailer with my daughter in it tonight using rim brakes reminded, once again, how disc brakes are the best brakes a consumer like me can buy at the moment. it took two full seconds for the large pads to stick to the MTB rim, and only barely made my turn at the bottom of the hill. i'd forgotten about the scariness of rim brakes, because doing this same maneuver with my mechanical disc brakes (ol' bb7s) in the same conditions is instant, lovely, life-preserving braking power right when you want it.

maybe if i lived in a place that never rained, or where i never rode in inclement weather, it wouldn't matter. but i do, and so it does.

disc brakes are the best brakes a consumer like me can buy at the moment.

For your specific purpose.

Double pivot brakes have much greater mechanical advantage, so offer greater stopping power over sidepull or centrepull brakes. I just switched from Suntour Superbe sidepulls (single pivot) to Ultegra 6600 double pivot and the difference was quite dramatic.

I'm not sure about -7G but the deceleration force is noticably stronger, probably close to 2x. Double pivots require levers that have a built in return spring and match the cable travel required, so I switched to R600 levers at the same time.

Dual pivot brakes ARE sidepull brakes

Dual pivot brakes ARE sidepull brakes

Maybe he meant post style brakes like V-brakes and Cantilevers. I personally find these easier to setup and adjust compared to sidepulls. I just switched from a single pivot side pull to an XTR V-Brake, worlds of difference.

I love my disc brakes :D

I think they're spelled breaks.
One vote for femur.

IMHO the best brake on a road bike is the original Campagnolo Chorus Monoplanor style brake. they stop well (although I have never charged down a 8% grade with offspring in tow) and I never felt they did not have enough stoppong power. however as they were designed to do I have never had the wheels 'lockup'. and as an added bonous thay have a beautiful and graceful shape.

If your frame has the option to mount disc, i say disc. Cantilever, or v-brakes have the next most stopping power because there are two mounting points closer to the rims.

Road caliper brakes have the least stopping power but work just fine for most purposes. I have them on my everyday bike and my touring bike, new pads are the key. If it is between single pivot or dual pivot, go with the dual pivot. They are easier to keep adjusted and what was said earlier by Strop sounds right, that they have better stopping power than single pivots. As for centre pull road brakes, i have had problems in the past with keeping them centered, and also in set up there is a second cable to consider, and a cable hanger.

Final vote, dual pivot caliper brakes.

IMHO the best brake on a road bike is the original Campagnolo Chorus Monoplanor style brake. they stop well (although I have never charged down a 8% grade with offspring in tow) and I never felt they did not have enough stoppong power. however as they were designed to do I have never had the wheels 'lockup'. and as an added bonous thay have a beautiful and graceful shape.

If we're going by looks, I'd have to nominate the Delta
http://www.campyonly.com/images/mystuff/delta_brakes/delta_front.jpg
oh wait, no, you also said the Monoplanor could stop...Well, at least the Delta brakes look really cool. Campy seems to make the best looking brakes.

If we're going by looks, I'd have to nominate the Delta
http://www.campyonly.com/images/mystuff/delta_brakes/delta_front.jpg
oh wait, no, you also said the Monoplanor could stop...Well, at least the Delta brakes look really cool. Campy seems to make the best looking brakes.
And they quit making them because they didn't work well.

And they quit making them because they didn't work well.
since when is stopping power a good judge of brake performance?

As stated above, the question is too vague. Maybe you don't know, but different have different requirements and likes.

Sidepull single pivot brakes are simple and need very little maintenance. As the pads wear, you don't have to move them up or down, as they always hit the rim squarely once you adjust the height right. This is the only design with this advantage. They can be tricky to center, but once you do it, it tends to stay centered. The leverage is a bit low, which makes them less than ideal for heavy loads. This is an advantage for racers who want fine control over the amount of braking force they apply.

Sidepull dual pivots are popular now because they have high leverage and are easy to adjust and set up.

Centerpulls are a bit trickier to adjust, and as Sheldon says, they work fairly well when reach is long, though dual pivots are probably just as good or better.

Cantilevers are very versatile, but your frame and fork have to have the bosses brazed or welded on. They are quite tricky to adjust, especially the first time or after you change shoes.

V-brakes work great. They have such high leverage that you need special low-leverage levers. Though perhaps the word special is not quite right, because they are in very common use now.

Drum brakes in your hubs work well, and their power doesn't vary with weather, since they are entirely internal. I'm surprised they're not more popular than they are now. They need regreasing every few years.

Disc brakes are hot now. I haven't tried them yet. I'm not sure what technological advance occurred recently to make them a realistic choice. I suspect we'll find them to need much more maintenance than drum brakes. They require special hubs, and they often require special fittings on the frame and fork.

Coaster brakes are at least as low-maintenance as drum brakes. They seem to need regreasing every 30 years or so.

V-brakes work great. They have such high leverage that you need special low-leverage levers. Though perhaps the word special is not quite right, because they are in very common use now.


Disc brakes are hot now. I haven't tried them yet. I'm not sure what technological advance occurred recently to make them a realistic choice. I suspect we'll find them to need much more maintenance than drum brakes. They require special hubs, and they often require special fittings on the frame and fork.

.

As far as the OP's choice I'd go with the dual pivot sidepulls, for a road bike in dry conditions.

FWIW, you can also get levers for v-brakes/mechanical discs that have adjustable leverage for even better brake tuning.

Disc brakes work far better, though, especially in adverse conditions. Been using them for many years after a scary incident in the rain on a descent with my ceramic rim/v-brake combo. I now look at a non-disc hub as a "special hub" because it's of little use to me on the majority of my bikes and my future bikes. Not sure what you mean by technological advance to make them a realistic choice, my Avid BB7 brakes are essentially the same as the BBDB Avid introduced, what 10 years ago? The hydraulic choices have been around quite a while, too. Not much new in disc technology, been around quite a while; they're on your car now, your motorcycle, and bikes that need the best braking possible. IMHO.

Yes, by sidepull I meant conventional single pivot sidepull calipers as opposed to the more modern double pivot sidepulls in use now.

As for the sexiest brakeset ever made, this is hard to beat.

http://www.classicrendezvous.com/Italy/modolo/Modolo_Kronos.htm

Falling victim to their irresistible allure I bought a pair to put on my custom bike back in 1983. I've never been able to find any references but I remember building it to the spec advertised as the Raleigh Super Record ultimate bike as published by Bicycling Magazine. In any case I found out like most others that while they look pretty they are more speed modifiers than brakes. In fact in the wet I believe that the decreased drag from closing the calipers more than compensates for the drag on the rims and you actually go faster.

Four stitches and a slightly damaged rock cliff face later I came to the conclusion that I did actually value stopping ability and I switched to the Suntour Superbe calipers that I used up until a few weeks ago. Back then at 160lbs they did a pretty good job of stopping me but after 20 years of weightlifting and 25lbs extra mass it was time for something stronger, at which point I changed over to double pivot (Ultegra 6600) brakes.

http://velobase.com/CompImages/Brakes/112B8C14-AB7B-4448-827E-317858CE0B36.jpeg

Never actually seen one in person, but one day, I'm buying a pair (heads off to check ebay)

since when is stopping power a good judge of brake performance?
The first time you need it and don't have it.

Road caliper brakes have the least stopping power...

And yet if you ham-fistedly grab a whole handful of the looooong arm single pivot side pulls on my '73 Varsity, they'll send you over the bars.

tcs

Disc brakes are hot now......... I suspect we'll find them to need much more maintenance than drum brakes.

It's not like disc brakes just became popular a couple of months ago. You can relax.....there's no unsolved mystery regarding disc brake maintenance. For mountain bikes, especially, they're the way to go.

It's not like disc brakes just became popular a couple of months ago. You can relax.....there's no unsolved mystery regarding disc brake maintenance. For mountain bikes, especially, they're the way to go.

By "recently" I meant ten years ago, when they came out. Before that, we thought it was unrealistic to expect a bicycle disc brake to work at all, since it wasn't possible to exert a force large enough to stop a disc. Something must have changed to make it possible.

I don't know if they're cantankerous, so please tell me how much maintenance they need. I see mentions of needing to change pads and true discs. None of this is necessary with drum brakes. Now, I know that drums are not so great for cars because they tend to overheat on long descents. Is that a concern on bikes, too?

Drum brakes in your hubs work well, and their power doesn't vary with weather, since they are entirely internal. I'm surprised they're not more popular than they are now. They need regreasing every few years.


Drum brakes are the single worst brake on a bike. They work perfectly for the first few months, then fade and fade and fade until no amount of adjusting can counter the fact that they just suck!

I work on them every day and have only encountered one or two bikes that had great working drum brakes even after twenty years. I have them on my own bike, but only because one is attached to the best internal gear hub ever made: the Sachs Super 7 and the front one I got for free (also Sachs)

Also, if you grease them they stop working alltogether.

And they quit making them because they didn't work well.

The Record Delta brakes I have work very well, the Croce d'aunes on another work not so well.
I agree also with Biachigirll, the Chorus monoplanar work very good, especially with Koolstop brakepads.

For plain old stopping power, the Roller Cam design has a lot to recommend it. It has other benefits, too. The pull can be made non-linear simply by adjusting the profile of the cam. And they don't stick out much past the frame.

So why aren't they ubiquitous? There are reasons.

I'd like to know why old Mafac centerpulls work so much better than old Weinmann centerpulls. I just switched in that direction on my old commuter bike as an experiment. The difference is substantial.

It may not be the brake design. Are the rims and pads identical?

By "recently" I meant ten years ago, when they came out. Before that, we thought it was unrealistic to expect a bicycle disc brake to work at all, since it wasn't possible to exert a force large enough to stop a disc. Something must have changed to make it possible.

I don't know if they're cantankerous, so please tell me how much maintenance they need. I see mentions of needing to change pads and true discs. None of this is necessary with drum brakes. Now, I know that drums are not so great for cars because they tend to overheat on long descents. Is that a concern on bikes, too?

I don't understand why someone would think it wasn't possible to build a bicycle disc brake that had "enough force to stop a disc" ten years ago, or even fifty + years ago. I don't remember that being a concern, and I was really into mountain biking at that time. And who is this "we" you've referred to in your posts regarding disc brakes?

The way I remember the transistion from primarily rim brakes to primarily disc brakes in the mountain bike world, which is where most bicycle disc brakes are used, was that weight was considered a drawback of disc brakes, disc brakes are more expensive, and MOST important was the fact that most everyone riding mountain bikes already had rim brakes that functioned pretty well.


Believe me, I resisted the disc brake movement, and stuck with my rim brakes well into the time period when better mountain bikes were sold equipped with disc brakes. I did see the advantages of a disc brake system keeping the rotor out of the muck, but I also thought disc brakes were "overkill" (i.e, more stopping power than was realistically needed on a bicycle brake), and stuck with my rim brakes. I've been pretty much out of mountain biking for a few years, so my v-brake equipped mountain bike went unchanged.


But I opened a bike shop last year, and have since worked on a lot of bikes with disc brakes. I've also ridden a few. And now, finally, I built myself up a new mountain bike, and of course it has disc brakes.


What I like best about discs is that they do get the brake surface out of the water/mud, but they also spare the rim from brake wear. I put Avid mechanical disc brakes (they work with a brake cable instead of hyrdaulic lines) on my new bike, and I could wear out or break the entire brake caliper and rotor and all I would have to do is replace that, the wheel would be unaffected. Yeah, sometimes a rotor needs to be trued (usually straightened with an adjustable wrench or similar), or even replaced, but no big deal. And brake shoes will wear out, no biggie there, either. Again, for mountain bikes, disc brakes make sense for most folks.

Hydraulic disks are from an engineering stand point are far superior to mechanical rim brakes.

They have a much greater thermal range to work in (from ambient to 500 degrees) especially if the hydraulic fluid is mineral oil or DOT 4. They can take advantage of this thermal range and not blow out a tire. They have less thermal mass than the rim and can dump heat faster to ambient air than a rim. If you bend a rim, you can still use your disk brakes.

I have disks on my motorcycle, but V-calipers on my bike. I have never smoked the pads on my motorcycle, but I have on my bicycle (rubber slag all over the rim).

There is also a significant mechanical advantage (greater magnification of hand pressure) using a properly designed hydraulic system.

Like any other design there are compromises, in the case of disks it is expense, complexity and I would hazard to guess that a disk setup with an appropriate hub weighs substantially more than a good rim brake.

It may not be the brake design. Are the rims and pads identical?


I switched from Weinmann to Mafac today on my favorite bike, a 1971 Raleigh Super Course. The Weinmanns were original. The Mafacs are from a Peugeot UO-8 of about the same vintage or slightly more recent. So the rims are the same. The Mafacs work much better, as I had hoped. I was reasonably certain they would, based on my experience. The pads are not the same, and I can't interchange them, because the Weinmanns use threaded and the Mafacs use studded. The Weinmanns used salmon colored Kool Stops and the Mafacs use black Kool Stops, which are supposed to be slightly inferior, right?

Mafacs are harder to adjust but are totally worth it. I really like them.

I don't understand why someone would think it wasn't possible to build a bicycle disc brake that had "enough force to stop a disc" ten years ago, or even fifty + years ago. I don't remember that being a concern, and I was really into mountain biking at that time. And who is this "we" you've referred to in your posts regarding disc brakes?

The way I remember the transistion from primarily rim brakes to primarily disc brakes in the mountain bike world, which is where most bicycle disc brakes are used, was that weight was considered a drawback of disc brakes, disc brakes are more expensive, and MOST important was the fact that most everyone riding mountain bikes already had rim brakes that functioned pretty well.


Believe me, I resisted the disc brake movement, and stuck with my rim brakes well into the time period when better mountain bikes were sold equipped with disc brakes. I did see the advantages of a disc brake system keeping the rotor out of the muck, but I also thought disc brakes were "overkill" (i.e, more stopping power than was realistically needed on a bicycle brake), and stuck with my rim brakes. I've been pretty much out of mountain biking for a few years, so my v-brake equipped mountain bike went unchanged.


But I opened a bike shop last year, and have since worked on a lot of bikes with disc brakes. I've also ridden a few. And now, finally, I built myself up a new mountain bike, and of course it has disc brakes.


What I like best about discs is that they do get the brake surface out of the water/mud, but they also spare the rim from brake wear. I put Avid mechanical disc brakes (they work with a brake cable instead of hyrdaulic lines) on my new bike, and I could wear out or break the entire brake caliper and rotor and all I would have to do is replace that, the wheel would be unaffected. Yeah, sometimes a rotor needs to be trued (usually straightened with an adjustable wrench or similar), or even replaced, but no big deal. And brake shoes will wear out, no biggie there, either. Again, for mountain bikes, disc brakes make sense for most folks.


My experience is as a bike mechanic from 1978 through 1984 and just a cyclist since then. I've been participating in some sort of online forum about bikes since 1985. Back then, there was a newsgroup called net.bicycle which later became rec.bicycles. In the beginning of that period, people were hoping to see disc brakes. Jobst Brandt, who knows a thing or two but apparently wasn't visionary enough, raised the point that a brake closer to the axle needs more force because leverage decreases with distance from the tire tread. So the disc brake must squeeze much harder than a rim brake. As it was in those days, rim brakes were adequate but didn't have power to spare. Brandt pointed out that we don't have enough strength in our hands to exert the required force for a disc brake.

A breakthrough of some sort must have made Brandt wrong. I don't know what that breakthrough was.

Jobst Brandt, who knows a thing or two

Sometimes I wonder.

Sometimes I wonder.

He's an engineer and he can twist the evidence to whatever he thinks is right. I'm a big believer in stuff that he writes but some of it is just plain wrong from actual experience.

I know. Brandt is sometimes a huge blowhard. But he does know a bunch of stuff, and he did the cycling community a great service by measuring many things for the first time. Thus he debunked a lot of cycling folklore. That's why I say cross your spokes. He proved that radial spoking offers no advantage and plenty of disadvantages.

the best road brakes I have used are the Mavic SSC brakes with Yokoyuna Salmon brake pads.. Super stopping power

http://www.roadbikereview.com/mfr/mavic-inc/brake-calipers/PRD_28360_2480crx.aspx#OW

http://store.yokozunausa.com/brakeinserts.html

Brandt pointed out that we don't have enough strength in our hands to exert the required force for a disc brake.

A breakthrough of some sort must have made Brandt wrong. I don't know what that breakthrough was.



Sometimes I wonder.

Yeah, me too.

In this case he was certainly wrong, though I suspect that he qualified his position somewhat - perhaps referring only to mechanical disks. With hydraulics the designer selects his own mechanical advantage, limited only by input travel. If the pads are very close to the disks, then the force multiplier can be quite high.

I switched from Weinmann to Mafac today on my favorite bike, a 1971 Raleigh Super Course. The Weinmanns were original. The Mafacs are from a Peugeot UO-8 of about the same vintage or slightly more recent. So the rims are the same. The Mafacs work much better, as I had hoped. I was reasonably certain they would, based on my experience. The pads are not the same, and I can't interchange them, because the Weinmanns use threaded and the Mafacs use studded. The Weinmanns used salmon colored Kool Stops and the Mafacs use black Kool Stops, which are supposed to be slightly inferior, right?

Mafacs are harder to adjust but are totally worth it. I really like them.

Some Mafac advice. You know how Mafacs use a threadless pad, just like older cantilevers? Thing is Mafac brakes don't come natively with an easy way to adjust toe-in. Yeah, there is always the wrench approach, but easier (and less aggressive) you can simply swap the draw bolt (with the toe in mechanism) from a pair of cantilever brakes into the Mafac calipers. I just did this to my gf's mixte, and the stopping power (from properly set up brakes) increased dramatically.

I must agree the Delta brake were very beautiful but a bit bulky looking. as for stopping I believe the philosphy there was the same as for the Chorus, although better excuted in Chorus, was controlling and slowing speed rather than brute stopping force

A breakthrough of some sort must have made Brandt wrong. I don't know what that breakthrough was.


I really cant point to a specific breakthrough but they work exceedingly well for the intended market they serve - bikes that operate in a sometimes wet environment. I too resisted the move to discs on my MTB but switched two seasons ago. I can tell you that Avid SD7 brakes with new, clean pads and Speed Dial levers are as good as it ever got for V-Brakes on my MTB. We're talking panic stops from 20+ mph in sand, mud etc. I switched to Discs using the Avid BB7 witch allowed me to keep the same levers since they are designed to work with V-Brake levers. What I can say is that the BB7s stopped only a little better than my best stops on the V-Brakes but those "best stops" were in perfect conditions - new pads, freshly cleaned rims etc. The Discs have been on for two full seasons and are coated in mud right now after my last race. They have not needed any thing more than a minor adjustment this year. (60 seconds or less) That is after two seasons and roughly 2000 miles of pretty abusive riding. They work as well now as the day I bought them and the pads can be changed in minutes. Since the hub stays out of the muck unless crossing a creek, they stay pretty clean at the braking surface and they work MUCH better than a rim brake when they do get wet so they are well suited to touring and commuting bikes as well.

"Best" is a relative term and the "best" choice will be different for different situations. Blanket generalities don't take specific cercumstances into account. By the way. I have read some of Jobst B's stuff and learned a lot but one man cannot possibly know all there is to know or be learned about the topic.

Double pivot brakes have much greater mechanical advantage, so offer greater stopping power over sidepull or centrepull brakes. I just switched from Suntour Superbe sidepulls (single pivot) to Ultegra 6600 double pivot and the difference was quite dramatic.

I'm not sure about -7G but the deceleration force is noticably stronger, probably close to 2x. Double pivots require levers that have a built in return spring and match the cable travel required, so I switched to R600 levers at the same time.Can you provide any quantified braking-distance figures from testing that shows dual-pivots will stop you faster???

People often confuse lever-force versus braking-force; which are not the same thing. Heck, I can design a braking system with 10000:1 leverage and it'll require just gnat's hair landing on the lever to practically implode the rim. But will that bike actually stop in a shorter distance? What ultimately determines your maximum deceleration-G and braking-distances? Hint, think of friction somewhere...

Of course, you're hinting at friction between tire and the ground, which is the biggest limit, not the braking system. And arguably, many brakes of all types can create enough deceleration that the tire's traction is the limit, not the brake. And I guess this is the final answer, which ends up meaning that stopping power isn't the question. Rather, the amount and type of control a brake gives you is the question and the deciding factor.

I switched from Weinmann to Mafac today on my favorite bike, a 1971 Raleigh Super Course. The Weinmanns were original. The Mafacs are from a Peugeot UO-8 of about the same vintage or slightly more recent. So the rims are the same. The Mafacs work much better, as I had hoped. I was reasonably certain they would, based on my experience. The pads are not the same, and I can't interchange them, because the Weinmanns use threaded and the Mafacs use studded. The Weinmanns used salmon colored Kool Stops and the Mafacs use black Kool Stops, which are supposed to be slightly inferior, right?

Mafacs are harder to adjust but are totally worth it. I really like them.

Mafac brakes were good enough that they were the choice of cyclo cross racers for many years and after Campagnolo, have been fitted to more winning racing bikes than anything else.

Mafacs centre pulls are very decent brakes... they always seem to out perform Weinmann models.

Well set up centre pull brakes offer great stopping power but suffer from being heavier than modern side pull and dual pivot brakes... my favourite centre pull brakes are the Spanish made Zeus 2000 as they are just beautiful.

Since the size and shape of the arms of Mafacs and Weinmanns are close, why do the Mafacs work so much better?

I know the Zeus brakes you're talking about. They are gorgeous.

Since the size and shape of the arms of Mafacs and Weinmanns are close, why do the Mafacs work so much better?

I know the Zeus brakes you're talking about. They are gorgeous.
Close is only good for horse shoes and hand grenades... small changes in materials and angles can make such a huge difference. In the defense of Weinmann centre pulls... they can offer some pretty decent power if the set up is right... levers also play a big role as some pairings work better than others.