Bicycle Mechanics - Pitted hub cone... again.

After 7000 or so miles on the original equipment, the non drive side hub cone on my rear hub was pitted. It was pretty severe, so I pulled everything apart and checked the race (?) inside the hub and it was not damaged, just the cone.
I replaced it with a Wheels Mfg. cone, replaced the bearings, glooped some Phil's in there and went back to riding. Today I pulled things apart because I've been feeling like there's some drag on the wheel, and the new cone is starting to pit. Grrr.

Questions: What improper adjustment causes the pitting: Too tight, or too loose? Could my weight (225 pounds) and riding style (stand and attack hills) be hastening the demise of these parts? Right now I'm riding a Deore hub; would I see a significant longevity difference if I switched to an Ultegra? D-A? King? Phil?

I have a 5 yr old deore hub with comperable mileage, no pitting.

Subtle things can increase the wear, using a magnet to pullout the bearings might be one. It can magnetize the ball bearing which will cause particles of worn metal to cling to the bearing instead of float loose into the grease, it might also be a problem with your cups, are they worn also? Wrong type of grease(not viscouse enough), too much pressure on from the cone will enable material transfer. I don't think you'd see a longer life-span unless you went to ceramic bearings, which isn't worth it IMHO.

After 7000 or so miles on the original equipment, the non drive side hub cone on my rear hub was pitted. It was pretty severe, so I pulled everything apart and checked the race (?) inside the hub and it was not damaged, just the cone.
I replaced it with a Wheels Mfg. cone, replaced the bearings, glooped some Phil's in there and went back to riding. Today I pulled things apart because I've been feeling like there's some drag on the wheel, and the new cone is starting to pit. Grrr.

Questions: What improper adjustment causes the pitting: Too tight, or too loose? Could my weight (225 pounds) and riding style (stand and attack hills) be hastening the demise of these parts? Right now I'm riding a Deore hub; would I see a significant longevity difference if I switched to an Ultegra? D-A? King? Phil?

Time to switch to a cartridge hub. That ain't shimano - you'll destroy a catridge but the hub will always be fine.

I'm not familiar with cartridge hub manufacturers. I know the DT 240s is a cartridge. What other manufacturers should I be looking at?

130 or 135mm is fine, so MTB hubs are OK by me if they're not disc.

You didn't say how long the replacement cones lasted. In any case, it's possible that you used a defective cone. Also, your installation might have been too tight or too loose. Did you adjust it correctly? ie. a little play until the QR is clamped tight, then no play at all.

Also, be sure to use enough grease, including inside the dust shields. Some should squeeze out after installation (wipe it off of course). That way, road grit that makes it past the dust shield will become stuck to the grease before making it into the bearings.

Phil is also a cartridge bearing hub.

However, cup-and-cone hubs can last a long time. I have >50,000 miles on a pair of Dura Ace hubs still using the original cones ans have maintained and used several sets of Ultegra and 105 hubs still going strong at 30,000 miles with the original cones.

Too loose or too tight bearing adjustment will damage hubs as will insufficient grease or water incursion from riding through deep water as MTB riders are prone to do.

You didn't say how long the replacement cones lasted. In any case, it's possible that you used a defective cone. Also, your installation might have been too tight or too loose. Did you adjust it correctly? ie. a little play until the QR is clamped tight, then no play at all.
The replacement cone barely made it to 2000 miles, that's why my initial assumption was that I had something mis-adjusted. I more than likely had things too tight, by not having much play before the QR was clamped down, so clamping was probably forcing the entire system together too harshly. The pitting wear I'm seeing in the cone is even around the entire face, which seems to indicate an even wear force. The original cone which pitted out was worn in mostly one place and tapered from that location, more like the way a pothole "spreads" over time.


Too loose or too tight bearing adjustment will damage hubs as will insufficient grease or water incursion from riding through deep water as MTB riders are prone to do.
No deep water on the roads, but I do ride though a lot of persistent rain. That's what led me to check the original setup; lots of miles in the rain and some slush, and they had never been serviced.

I think for now, this is an adjustment I should leave to the shop.

The bearings should be adjusted with a slight amount of preload. I use a nut that fits over the axle as a replacement dropout for the adjustment. The nut fits over the axle and I install the quick release with what I feel is the clamping tension. Then make the final adjustment on the bearing so that is a slight amount of drag (preload).
If you are riding often in wet conditions you may want to consider overhauling your hubs more often. Every 1500 miles. I get by with 2500 miles.
The seals in our hubs are dust seals and not designed to keep moisture out. This is also true in radial (cartridge bearings).

Rain will just wash out the bearings, Phil Wood grease or no. Rain requires constant maintenance. I would say you should probably do re-grease maintenance once for every 4 to 7 rain rides, more if you get a lot of sand/grit/dirt.

A sealed cartridge hub will be better, a Protected Sealed Cartridge hub is even better (the cartridge bearing is protected from the elements by a cover)

I don't think you need the shop to do this.

Rain will just wash out the bearings, Phil Wood grease or no. Rain requires constant maintenance. I would say you should probably do re-grease maintenance once for every 4 to 7 rain rides, more if you get a lot of sand/grit/dirt.

A sealed cartridge hub will be better, a Protected Sealed Cartridge hub is even better (the cartridge bearing is protected from the elements by a cover)

I don't think you need the shop to do this.

That would be 2 or more hub overhauls a week during the winter months. It sometimes rains for 15 days at a time up here (or more) and I ride to work 4 days a week (30mi r/t) plus a long ride or two on the weekends.

I suppose it is a bit of trial/error learning that I need to deal with. I seem to have gotten the "error" part out of the way early on. :o It's only within the last year that I stepped up to doing all my own maintenance, so hubs, bottom brackets and headsets were the final frontier for me. Threadless headset and (cartridge) BB are pretty simple, but adjustable bearing hubs require bit more finesse.

Obviously a sealed cartridge would fare a bit better. The other thing that was suggested to me is to be careful about how tight the skewers are. The wheel spins fine off the bike, but you can press those suckers further in with the skewers and bind them up a bit.

You didn't replace the balls along with the cone?


Tsk.

You didn't replace the balls along with the cone?

Tsk.

The OP used the more correct term "bearings" instead of "balls" when he describes changing them

Oops. Missed that phrase. You're right. Never mind.

I'm not familiar with cartridge hub manufacturers. I know the DT 240s is a cartridge. What other manufacturers should I be looking at?

130 or 135mm is fine, so MTB hubs are OK by me if they're not disc.

Those DT hubs are one of the finest hubsets you can buy - they will last you a lifetime. Also consider Phils

A person who rides as much as you do ought to consider stepping up to some first class wheels. Cartridge bearing hubs included. You won't regret it. bk

using a magnet to pullout the bearings might be one. It can magnetize the ball bearing which will cause particles of worn metal to cling to the bearing instead of float loose into the grease


Interesting. Haven't heard this. Is that purely anecdotal or have you noticed this firsthand? I'd expect isolating the variables would be pretty subtle.

My first instinct would be poor bearing adjustment.


Rain will just wash out the bearings... I would say you should probably do re-grease maintenance once for every 4 to 7 rain rides, more if you get a lot of sand/grit/dirt.

4-7?

Where did you get those ridiculous, contrived numbers.

You must live in a desert or something. Ridiculous.

Sounds like you adjusted the cone too tight. You need to set the adjustment so there is some play when you have axle in your hands, when the quick release is tightened the play will go away.

Regarding cartridge bearing hubs being more durable, I seriously doubt it unless you are talking about Phil Wood. DT rear hubs use a stupid aluminum freehub body (unless you special order) which will get torn to crap assuming you are using the Shimano spline pattern. Give me a loose ball hub with steel or Ti freehub body any day...just learn how to adjust the cones.

Interesting. Haven't heard this. Is that purely anecdotal or have you noticed this firsthand? I'd expect isolating the variables would be pretty subtle.

No, I haven't searched for any cases or bothered to test for it. Really, this issue doesn't occur normally, since most mechanics just toss the bearings after they pull them out. IF one kept recycling the bearings then this might occur.

Anyways, the idea is that the microscopic wear-debris which come off the ball bearing during normal wear will not float out into the grease as typical. Instead those microscopic bits of wear-debris will stick to your ball-bearing like iron filings on the end of a horseshoe magnet. This will accelerate wear since those debris will almost always be contacting the race, cup or neighboring bearings instead of occasional contact if they were floating in the grease.

4-7?
Where did you get those ridiculous, contrived numbers.
You must live in a desert or something. Ridiculous.

No Houston, where did you learn to read?

Sounds like you adjusted the cone too tight. You need to set the adjustment so there is some play when you have axle in your hands, when the quick release is tightened the play will go away.

Regarding cartridge bearing hubs being more durable, I seriously doubt it unless you are talking about Phil Wood. DT rear hubs use a stupid aluminum freehub body (unless you special order) which will get torn to crap assuming you are using the Shimano spline pattern. Give me a loose ball hub with steel or Ti freehub body any day...just learn how to adjust the cones.

Yeah let's talk about hub then randomly talk about freehub durability. This thread is about bearings and races, catridge bearing hubs are inherently superior in design to loose ball hubs with non replaceable hub races. A cartridge hub only wears out the catridges, even if left without matinenance for an extended amount of time, which is obviously not the case for a loose ball hub - once the nonreplacealbe hub races are pitted you're ****ed.

Yeah let's talk about hub then randomly talk about freehub durability. This thread is about bearings and races, catridge bearing hubs are inherently superior in design to loose ball hubs with non replaceable hub races. A cartridge hub only wears out the catridges, even if left without matinenance for an extended amount of time, which is obviously not the case for a loose ball hub - once the nonreplacealbe hub races are pitted you're ****ed.

That is indeed one of the main failings of some hub designs - that the race cups cannot be replaced along with the cones and ball bearings. I've found this to my cost in the past.
For a while I used a road bike with wheels built up on Shimano Deore hubs for commuting - these hubs were little more expensive than their road equivalent, but the seals were far superior, meaning vastly improved lifetime. I later found Hope Technology hubs (remember I was in the UK) for road bikes, and these use sealed cartridge bearings. Expensive, perhaps, but very reliable so far!

Yeah let's talk about hub then randomly talk about freehub durability. This thread is about bearings and races, catridge bearing hubs are inherently superior in design to loose ball hubs with non replaceable hub races. A cartridge hub only wears out the catridges, even if left without matinenance for an extended amount of time, which is obviously not the case for a loose ball hub - once the nonreplacealbe hub races are pitted you're ****ed.
They are superior only if you don't properly maintain your cup and cone hubs.

They are superior only if you don't properly maintain your cup and cone hubs.

Which is the point.

If a hub is ridden in conditions (re: wet) that requires a hub overhaul every month then a looseball hub is an inferior choice.

That is indeed one of the main failings of some hub designs - that the race cups cannot be replaced along with the cones and ball bearings. I've found this to my cost in the past.
For a while I used a road bike with wheels built up on Shimano Deore hubs for commuting - these hubs were little more expensive than their road equivalent, but the seals were far superior, meaning vastly improved lifetime. I later found Hope Technology hubs (remember I was in the UK) for road bikes, and these use sealed cartridge bearings. Expensive, perhaps, but very reliable so far!

Yup, not sure about those Hope Hubs but if you went to the shimano XT hubs i hear they have a labyrinth type seal on the hub which would perform much better than the deore's simple ring type seal.

As far as cup/cone and cartridge bearings, the cup and cone are superior if you maintain them... IF, and many don't.. plus it is far cheaper to make a cartridge hub. But you'll still see cup and cone on the high-end hubs. One of the biggest weaknesses of cartridge bearings is they cope with lateral loads poorly.

plus it is far cheaper to make a cartridge hub. But you'll still see cup and cone on the high-end hubs. One of the biggest weaknesses of cartridge bearings is they cope with lateral loads poorly.

Yeah those Phil Wood hubs are cheap and easy to manufacture. And that weakness isn't really a weakness on a road bike, or any bike for that matter. Lateral loads just don't exist in sufficient magnitude to cause a bicycle hub with cartridge bearings to fail from that alone.

One data point. I have an old Trek set up as a beater/rain bike so it's used only in bad weather and exposed to rain, snow and grit on almost every ride. The hubs were Shimano 8-speed era 105 and the original cones and races lasted for years with only annual overhauls which means every 1500 to 2000 miles

The "secret", if there is one, is that I pack them very full of grease (Phil Grease in this case) when I assemble them. They bleed excess grease for the first few rides but the extra grease acts as an effective water and dirt seal.

I find on bikes used in this harsh service that the rims wear out from brake abrasion before the hubs are damaged if I keep them heavily greased.

Yeah let's talk about hub then randomly talk about freehub durability. This thread is about bearings and races, catridge bearing hubs are inherently superior in design to loose ball hubs with non replaceable hub races. A cartridge hub only wears out the catridges, even if left without matinenance for an extended amount of time, which is obviously not the case for a loose ball hub - once the nonreplacealbe hub races are pitted you're ****ed.

The DT freehub comment is not random, it is specifically pointed at the people talking about the superior DT hub design which is not so superior if the freehub gets chewed up regardless is what kind of bearings the hub has. There is a reason Shimano uses steel and Ti freehubs. Also, while cartridge bearings are nice for the ability to change them, they also tend to be more difficult to service and many of the hubs using cartridge bearings require special tools to service. All this adds up to a questionable improvement in my opinion.

Try a different grease for winter. Like Mystik JT6 (Green tube - calcium based). That's the same grease that's recommended for boat trailers that are submerged in water to launch/recover boats then hit highway speeds and a favorite with farm and heavy equipment. Never washed out on me, but you need to check your adjustments/clearances too. Cup-and-cone adjustments with a QR are a lot different than a nutted axle.

The DT freehub comment is not random, it is specifically pointed at the people talking about the superior DT hub design which is not so superior if the freehub gets chewed up regardless is what kind of bearings the hub has. There is a reason Shimano uses steel and Ti freehubs. Also, while cartridge bearings are nice for the ability to change them, they also tend to be more difficult to service and many of the hubs using cartridge bearings require special tools to service. All this adds up to a questionable improvement in my opinion.

I'm pretty sure the lower end DT rear hubs ( 370, 340) use steel freehub bodies, a more durable choice.

Yeah those Phil Wood hubs are cheap and easy to manufacture. And that weakness isn't really a weakness on a road bike, or any bike for that matter. Lateral loads just don't exist in sufficient magnitude to cause a bicycle hub with cartridge bearings to fail from that alone.

Yeah, sure... just because PHIL WOODS uses it then it's the best answer... is that what you're saying? hah.

Lateral loads exist on bicycle hubs, maybe not during conservative road riding but step outside roadie land(there are other uses for bicycles) and you'll find all sorts of strange lateral loads on bearings.

Speaking about DT freehub bodies(370) the cartridge bearing on mine is done(lateral play now exists in the freehub bearing).. weak... didn't even make it 5 months before it started to squeal. The deore freehub it replaced lasted 2 YEARS under the same conditions. The only good part is i don't have to replace the DT cartridge right away, something i'm not even sure is possible without 3-4 custom tools. :notamused:

Which is the point.

If a hub is ridden in conditions (re: wet) that requires a hub overhaul every month then a looseball hub is an inferior choice.
So do radial bearings. At least according to Park tool and Barnetts. Maybe not quite as often but they still need service.

Lucky you lot. We who cycle in the tropics suffers hub bearings assembly failure more often. 7000km for Deore hub is not bad, depending on riding style and weather. The most important thing to do for every new hub is to check for cup/cone adjustments. In most cases new hubs are overtight especially in DeoreLX and below grades. Hub bearings also requires adjustment every now and then depending on how tight the locknuts are tighteened... Bear also in mind that the rear hub carries the most load on top of being subjected to drive torque in the drivetrain....

Lucky you lot. We who cycle in the tropics suffers hub bearings assembly failure more often. 7000km for Deore hub is not bad, depending on riding style and weather. The most important thing to do for every new hub is to check for cup/cone adjustments. In most cases new hubs are overtight especially in DeoreLX and below grades. Hub bearings also requires adjustment every now and then depending on how tight the locknuts are tighteened... Bear also in mind that the rear hub carries the most load on top of being subjected to drive torque in the drivetrain....

Wise words. I've certainly suffered the "overtight when new" problem.

"bearings" is definitely not more correct.

In addition to the possibility that your work wasn't clean enough, there is also the possibility that the adjustment opened up. Some cones seem to have been finished by tumbling and have a fairly rough surface. They can develop a smooth track pretty quick, by mashing or wearing down the formerly rough surface which increases the clearance.

Unless you have a Campagnolo hub with mirror smooth, ground races, you probabaly need to readjust a few times at first.

People used to sand the cones or even lap them by assembling the wheel with new cones, old balls and an abrasive paste, then turning the axle in a drill for a few minutes.

slack will ruin a bearing just as fast as overtightening. There should be no clearance and maybe just the slightest hint of preload when the skewers are tight.

Overhaul more often- once a year minimum if your don't ride in rain. A LOT more often if you do. check 'em after every ride and if they feel even the slightest bit tight-overhaul and Use new bearings when you do

If your have skewers you might try adj the bearing very slightly loose when checking them, some of the bike some mechanics say the tightened skewer can make the adj. tight

Overhaul more often- once a year minimum if your don't ride in rain. A LOT more often if you do. check 'em after every ride and if they feel even the slightest bit tight-overhaul and Use new bearings when you do

If your have skewers you might try adj the bearing very slightly loose when checking them, some of the bike some mechanics say the tightened skewer can make the adj. tight

On your last point, yes, this is absolutely true. See the article on hubs at www.sheldonbrown.com. Basically the skewer clamp compresses the axle & hence forces the cones toward each other. This can be significant and is fairly easy to observe for oneself if you have the patience to try. When adjusting hubs, I've used a couple of nuts that simulate dropouts. The axle is adjusted, then the skewer tightened to "normal" (rather subjective I'll admit) and the state of the bearings is checked. It takes a couple of rounds to get them right when the clamp is tight. At this point if one loosens the skewer, the hub will have noticable play in the absence of the clamping force. Fiddly, but worth getting right though IMHO.

Overhaul more often- once a year minimum if your don't ride in rain. A LOT more often if you do. You do not need to overhaul so often if you use Deore hubs. Maybe in an earlier time when bearings were shielded instead of sealed you did.

... Basically the skewer clamp compresses the axle & hence forces the cones toward each other. ... It takes a couple of rounds to get them right when the clamp is tight..

I use the Hub Axle Vise on this page (http://jastein.com/Html/Tools_for_Wheels.htm). No fiddling. Set once and it's right. Just $11 from Stein or from biketoolsetc, IIRC.

I use the Hub Axle Vise on this page (http://jastein.com/Html/Tools_for_Wheels.htm). No fiddling. Set once and it's right. Just $11 from Stein or from biketoolsetc, IIRC.

I think people place too much epmphasis on getting the loose "QR" hub adjustment to it's 99.99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% correct. It's just wasted because you can't regular the clamp force of the QR with any sort of precision.

I disagree, to some extent. If you set the QR consistently - i.e. to start to engage at the half-way position - then you will be pretty consistent with ultimate clamping force. (And this is independent of the bearing adjustment.)


Still, 99.99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% is way anal. 99.9999% is quite close enough.

I disagree, to some extent. If you set the QR consistently - i.e. to start to engage at the half-way position - then you will be pretty consistent with ultimate clamping force. (And this is independent of the bearing adjustment.)


Still, 99.99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% is way anal. 99.9999% is quite close enough.

Yeah, try telling that to the 9999999 customers we tune up bikes for :) The QR will always engage at the halfway point. Regardless of the actual clamping force on the hub though (ignore edge cases).

...The QR will always engage at the halfway point. Please explain. On the face of it that statement sounds wrong. It can easily be adjusted to start engaging anywhere in its swing, and then you get either a little or a whole heck of a lot of clamping force.

I use the Hub Axle Vise on this page (http://jastein.com/Html/Tools_for_Wheels.htm). No fiddling. Set once and it's right. Just $11 from Stein or from biketoolsetc, IIRC.

That's neat. I might try and put the idea into action with bits from the junk pile. My method works off the bike, but since it clamps in the same place as the frame/fork dropouts and so prevents turning of the locknuts, one must slacken the QR to make each adjustment. I see that the axe vice clamps the axle's ends, leaving the locknuts free for adjustment. Wish I'd thought of that :)

Hey, don't praise me. It was Jim Stein thought of it. He's got some other really nifty tools, too. From what I understand, he makes all this stuff himself. So support your local bike tool genius!

Up.
I kinda have the same problem as the OP. Winter riding is hard on bikes... I overhauled my rear hub (formula track hub with cups and cones) few rides ago, put new loose balls which are already rusted. And now my cones start to be pitted... So i have two question :
- are stainless balls better ? ceramic would be overkill...
- where can i find replacement cones for my hub (i found some generic cones, but mines have dust seals)

thanks

get better sealed hubs, i find road hubs to have poor excuses for seals.

I'm not familiar, but how is ceramic overkill? They must be terribly expensive because it would seem to me the reduced maintenance would make them worthwhile in any other case.

I've been following the advice in my Zinn book and thoroughly clean and inspect the bearings during an adjustment. If they are shiny, I resuse them unless I notice a flaw. Is there truly a problem with this?

Who makes cup and cone hubs with replaceable cups? A few of you have mentioned them. It seems that the main advantage cartridges have over cup and cone is that the hubs are not trashed when the race (cup) wears out.

I recently did my first hub service on my commute bike and found pitted/burned cups on the front hub....I grabbed a Shimano XT hub on ebay for cheap and swapped it out. Nice rubber seals to keep the grease in and dirt out. Depending on the frame though, this option is only worth considering for front wheels, not your rear.

I'm curious though about the replaceable cups. I've had good luck with both cartridge and cup and cone, but a compromise on features with replaceable cups would be a nice option.

-Jeremy

I'm planning to change my wheelset, but i'd like to finish my winter with this set, and keep it as a back-up later. Until then i would like to spend the smallest amount of money, so unless someone convinces me not to, i'm going to buy stainless loose balls, and keep my not-so-trashed cones. By the way i found this if it can help anybody : http://wheelsmfg.com/content/view/470/32/