Framebuilders - Curtlo

Well, I'm starting to wonder.

In July I paid my deposit after working out most of the details; I asked him for a rough guess on a timeframe (I know that ordering a frame like this is NOT "instant gratification"...but I just wanted a ballpark) and his answer was "It's too hard to estimate right now. I've got to see how my build schedule plays out."

Fair enough. I left well enough alone.

In October I dropped him one brief message asking if he had an idea of a ballpark estimate. No reply.

Now November is wrapping up, so I sent an e-mail and left a phone message. No reply.

I did emphasize that I know he's busy, and I know he can't give me an exact ETIC...I'm not trying to pin him down to an exact date. But the fact that I can't even get a window of time, or even a reply, is worrisome.

Is this normal? Should I start attempting to recover my money now?

If I do, does anyone know anything about Ionic Bikes?

this is normal with Curlo. You are paying an outrageously low price for a frame. The guy builds good frames, he doesn't do communications until he needs to talk to you. He's always late. If you had done any research at all before you gave him a deposit you would have realized this. Your fault entirely.

Wow.

I did do research, and knew that this was somewhat what to expect.

In all of my research the communication, while spotty, was quite a bit more than what I've had. I'm not asking to have my hand held. I'm not asking for step by step pictures, or anything so ridiculous.

Just one line with a rough guess. After 5 months of just chilling...because of the research I'd done...I don't think I'm being terribly unreasonble.

Has Curtlo gone out of business?

Has Curtlo gone out of business?

That would suck. That would leave me out my $650 deposit.

there was a thread just like this on mtbr just recently. The person got his money back but a lot of people also showed their curlos and were very happy with them. Also saw a recent thread over there where someone crashed his frame and curlo fixed it for a very good price. I don't know why he underprices the market so much, he's bound to get a batch of customers that cause him more problems than he's charging for. He should charge 50% more and take a day off a week to answer email.

Probably should. I'd certainly pay more for the frame, provided he still gave a good deal on the S&S couplers.

I don't know enough about the framemaking business to know how much he's underpricing the market by. The reason I went with him was because his price for an S&S coupler mod was very good. Many builders seemed to be charging almost as much for the coupler mod as for the frame itself. Again, lack of knowledge, but if you don't have to re-paint the frame because they were part of the original build, it seems like Doug's price for the mod was about right.

The price of the frame itself? That was an added bonus in my book. It actually almost turned me away...I wondered how on earth he was charging so much less than everyone else.

there are guys on their third frame selling a bare minimum fillet brazed frame without fork for $1500. The top names might charge $4k for a lugged frame with fork. Seems to me that most people upcharge at least $500 for S&S. Considering how much the parts cost that's too cheap. Framebuilding is a subsistence occupation or part time for most pro builders. That's why they can get away with under-charging.

unterhausen,

I searched mtbr and found the thread that you referenced...and posted in, I believe.

At first I was encouraged that being near the 6month point my turn in the queue might be coming up. Then I read about the couple who had the 13 month incommunicado wait. Ouch!

there was a lot of speculation that having a pair of bikes built at the same time slows things down with him, which makes no sense to me. But it does appear to be true. I think most established builders have at least a years wait at this time. Too bad he didn't communicate this with you.

c'est la vie.

It's a good thing he has that picture gallery on his website. Whenever I think that maybe I should re-think, I just look at those, and settle down again. Those are darn beautiful frames, and I can't wait to have one...which is of course the whole problem. They're darn beautiful, and though looking makes me realize I just need to wait, looking also makes me want mine sooner.

Ah well. Patience, it is said, is a virtue that is generally rewarded.

I wonder if he charges so little just so he can avoid human communication.

there was a lot of speculation that having a pair of bikes built at the same time slows things down with him, which makes no sense to me. But it does appear to be true. I think most established builders have at least a years wait at this time.

I had a Davidson built in about 90 days (very established builder):

www.davidsonbicycles.com

I had a Boedie built in about 6 weeks (newer builder):

www.boediecycles.com

Curtlo's are 'utilitarian'. You haven't payed for Customer Service, so don't be too miffed when you don't get much.

Message to anyone considering buying a custom frame - If you want good Customer Service, pay for it. It's worth it. It means no anxiety, no forum posts like this, more sleep, you'll be better looking, people will like you more because you'll be in a better mood....heck, it might even help you get laid.

Is that worth a couple of hundred bucks?

I had a Davidson built in about 90 days (very established builder):

www.davidsonbicycles.com

I had a Boedie built in about 6 weeks (newer builder):

www.boediecycles.com
There are a lot of good builders that will start on your frame right away. You just have to find one.

I am sure he is a good frame builder but its not that hard to give an estimated finish date. A customer understands that there may be delays or setbacks but you gotta communicate with them. How hard is it to tell them how many frames you have on order, how long it normally takes, and if you get a little behind ( we all do at one time or another) give them a heads up, even Sachs and Vanilla know its gonna be roughly 5 years.

Right, you can make an estimate, then fail to hit it, then spend the rest of your life communicating with the customer all through the piece. Or you can just make the frames and spend the rest of your time as required. My only thing would be if you don't communicate, and you don't give a good estimate, maybe you should split your deposit into a non-refundable portion for sitting in the line, and then take the materials deposit when you are on the verge of building. 650 deposit without any time line is likely to raise eyebrows.

If he wanted to avoid any unnecessary communication from me, he should have told me "wait x months". I wouldn't have bugged him again, until that point. If he really wants thrilled customers, give an estimate that he KNOWS he can beat, and then beat it. Presto! Everyone raves about how early you are with all your projects.

That's not a bad idea, actually. If I ever have a business like this, I'm going to overestimate everytime, and then come out looking terrific in the end.

"That's not a bad idea, actually. If I ever have a business like this, I'm going to overestimate everytime, and then come out looking terrific in the end."

Still assumes you have some idea. His site is pretty nice, so he doesn't seem that random. But some people have minimal control over time, so better not to promise, or at least some people see it that way. What if there is a really good hatch at the river. You want to be in the shop?

He is not the easiest guy to deal with. I had a warranty issue with him and he was a complete ass and wouldn't take care of it. That was almost 20 years ago, but I haven't forgotten it.

He is not the easiest guy to deal with. I had a warranty issue with him and he was a complete ass and wouldn't take care of it. That was almost 20 years ago, but I'll haven't forgotten it.

Ouch. What kind of issue?

PM sent

All the Curtlos I've seen have been nice. I'd suggest Marinoni or Proleteriat as alternatives that are priced reasonably and have a lot of experience.

Right, you can make an estimate, then fail to hit it, then spend the rest of your life communicating with the customer all through the piece. Or you can just make the frames and spend the rest of your time as required.

How long do you think it takes to write and send a very small 'piece of mind' email? Say you have 20 builds on the go and you send one 60 second email to each customer.....a whole 20 minutes out of 5000-odd waking minutes a week.

Can't devote that to customer service?

Is common courtesy an upcharge these days?

How long has he been able to survive with these kinds of business practices?
Or is frame building his night job?

Allen, apparently he has a lot of patient customers. I don't think his lead times are excessive considering his prices and experience. In fact, his lead times are fairly short. For some reason you don't see this kind of post about big name builders with longer lead times. Maybe they say up front: "don't call me for 4 years."

For the impatient, according to the post I cited at the MTBR forums, he does refund deposits.

I don't see why everyone is backing up a deadbeat builder. Yes, deadbeat. You other builders that support this. Get out of town! There is no implied "low price = no communication" argument. Either be honest with the buyer up front and say so, or go work at McDonald's.

Here is what I gather from the original poster...
July 2008. Paid deposit - builder told the customer that he would get back to him on the estimated time to complete. No answer.
Oct 2008 - Buyer leaves message for builder. No answer.
Nov 2008 - Emailed. no reply
Nov 2008 - Phone message - no reply.

It is now December and you got to wonder if indeed Curtlo is out of business or what is up. If he isn't out of business, then he most probably has caller ID and selectively ignores the people who have paid deposits. Seems we get these posts now and again about him.

We'll see what happens. I left him one more message, (e-mail) explaining that I know he's a busy man, and that with the holidays coming up I hardly expect any serious movement in the short term future. With that, I wished him a Merry Christmas, and stated that I hope he can contact me at least after the holidays with a tentative timeline.

I have, however, also contacted Ionic/Dean to ask about pricing and their lead times.

We'll see what happens.

I have, however, also contacted Ionic/Dean to ask about pricing and their lead times.

lolz. Sucker for punishment.

lolz. Sucker for punishment.

Is that regarding my continued policy of patience on the Curtlo front, or for contacting Ionic?

Just curious.

After more research, I don't think Ionic is a good substitute anyway. I love the look of Curtlo's brazed tube junctions, and don't really want to go to TIG welds.

good luck, you seem like you deserve better treatment.

I love the look of Curtlo's brazed tube junctions, and don't really want to go to TIG welds.

If you want stunning fillet brazed joints, John Slawta at Landshark does beautiful work. His paint jobs are also amazing and there is no lack of creativity. Lots of color and airbrushing if you want that type of paint. I have owned more than one and can attest to the high quality in every aspect of his business.

this is simple
if all the facts are as they as presented to us
then this is totally out of order
a professional business {ie: frame builder** will reply with a phone call to a concerned punter who has paid a deposit and is worried..................
it only takes a 5min return phone call to be polite
if the builder cannot be bothered to do this and or just ignores you then they are treating you with contempt
unless they have a serious illness
Some times bargins are not bargins
and many builders are failures at understanding pricing and the time to run a business
let alone customer service.
Pricing to be the low point of the food chain in the long run means low point in the frame quality food chain

What's your budget? Yamaguchi does ridiculously awesome brazing and he's $1600-1700 for a full frameset.

I second the Yamaguchi vote. Hes the master.

Pricing to be the low point of the food chain in the long run means low point in the frame quality food chain

This.

I agree with most of what you are saying Silverbraze. I don't know who Curtlo is but he definitely owes Banzai a little info, but as far as frame quality always suffering because of the price isn't always true. As a new frame builder trying to get my name out there I have sold some custom frames very cheap just so that I could pay for the materials and start another but I put the same effort into every frame, they have to be good or I don't have a chance, one crappy frame can taint your image forever. I don't feel I can charge the same price as Sachs, Vanilla, Yamaguchi, etc. because I haven't been in business as long as they have and don't have as much experience, Yamaguchi is the one who taught me. Trust me, I am dreaming of a day when i can get over $1000 for all my frames but right now I have to build them and get them out there whatever the cost to prove they are good and make a name for myself, if I have to sell them cheap to keep building I will but I know the quality is there because I, like most people that take the time to build a bike frame, don't want to waste my time to have my name on a piece of junk. http://meechcustombikes.blogspot.com/

Fly with MEECH

I agree with most of what you are saying Silverbraze. I don't know who Curtlo is but he definitely owes Banzai a little info, but as far as frame quality always suffering because of the price isn't always true. As a new frame builder trying to get my name out there I have sold some custom frames very cheap just so that I could pay for the materials and start another but I put the same effort into every frame, they have to be good or I don't have a chance, one crappy frame can taint your image forever. I don't feel I can charge the same price as Sachs, Vanilla, Yamaguchi, etc. because I haven't been in business as long as they have and don't have as much experience, Yamaguchi is the one who taught me. Trust me, I am dreaming of a day when i can get over $1000 for all my frames but right now I have to build them and get them out there whatever the cost to prove they are good and make a name for myself, if I have to sell them cheap to keep building I will but I know the quality is there because I, like most people that take the time to build a bike frame, don't want to waste my time to have my name on a piece of junk. http://meechcustombikes.blogspot.com/

Fly with MEECH

You want to get your name out? QUIT BLOGGING! Have a real website! As a potential customer, I need to know about you and your bikes and how it all relates to me. Your blog tells me nothing about any of that. I want to see nice pics of your bikes, your shop, of you and your dog or whatever. I want to see what you have to offer, standard builds and add-ons. I want to see prices. What's your background? What are your desires? What can you offer me?

Blogs, by themselves, are a waste of time and do nothing to get your name 'out there'. You want to be a pro builder? Play with the big boys. Look at the websites of the builders that you respect, of those like you want to be. What info do they pass on to the consumer? You do the same, only different.

This is a serious post, I'm not trying to knock you in any way. I wish I had the talent to weld pieces of metal together into something that I could proudly put my name on. All I can do is have someone to do it for me, perhaps someone like you.

First off, thanks for the honest feedback, I appreciate it for the simple fact that most of it is true, and I am working on getting a website out although I have been slow about it because I wanted to spend some time building frames, getting experience before I tried to make a primary business out of it. The blog was a free opportunity to show my work, some of the riders who are riding my bikes, the different styles of bike frames that I have built, painting options, etc., and also just to have a little fun with it as well. While it may not be a full-blown website, it does show quite a bit of my capabilities and what I can offer, maybe not as well as the "big boys" who have the money for the sweet websites, but its definitely not the blind leading the blind. As far as a lot of those websites go, I love seeing the frames/products they build, and there are a number of very good builders, both new and old, however I get tired of looking at price lists that show every little $25 upgrade for an extra braze-on, line by line, that goes on forever. Once someone contacts me about one of my frames, we discuss what they are wanting, change anything that might be an improvement, and after we dial it in I give them a final price and estimated delivery, I am in constant contact with them, sending them photos of the build, and answering any questions they have which is exactly what started this whole thread. Thanks again for the feedback, the blog might not be exactly what you are looking for but it does contain some nice pics of some of the frames I have built even though I am not much of a photographer, the view of the shop might be vague buts its there, and if you look back at some of the older posts you can find a photo of my cat Louie as well. If you want one of me I'll get it for you. There is also mention of where I learned to build frames, how long I have been doing it, and maybe a couple of prices as well. I know its not in the most professional format but I am and have always been working toward that and I am getting it dialed in at a pace that I am comfortable with. I think it is the better route than to just go learn how to build frames and then stick a website out there. This is not a personal attack on you either, I am building my frames one at a time, by hand, in the most efficient and affordable manner that I can, and while selling them is what I want to do, building a quality frame and reputation is the most important thing to me. What did frrame builders do before the internet?

I think your blog is ok. A fancy website is great, but there are successful builders that only use a blog and that works fine for them. That being said, you probably should have some in-process shots. People like to see their bike being made and they like to see other people's bikes being made.

I can agree with that as well and I will try to improve on it in the near future however whenever I am building a frame there is seldom anyone around to take my picture.

One last thing for Davet's post above, I noticed Curtlo has a nice website. I need to ask him how its working for him.

"Seems we get these posts now and again about him."

That's your basis for considering he has all of a sudden gone out of business? Sounds more like business as usual.

I don't really agree with the idea that people owe people a lot of nose wiping and diaper changing (not a reference to the OP). Communication isn't free and in this case it pretty clearly wasn't included. If it was really costed out it might double the cost of doing a frame. Luckily for the consumer a lot of these kinds of outfits aren't really businesses, or the hourly rate would be like an auto repair palce. I know guys who run craft businesses, and they only get building after hours, the weight of communication is so heavy. If you run a one man shop, and some people seem to prefer buying from those kind of craftsmen, then it all drops on your shoulders. The problem is that a lot of people like dealing with the one-man shop because they expect to have better communication.

As far as answering the phone goes, no way I would have a phone in a workshop. You really want the guy doing your BB to take about 10 breaks in the middle of the job. Safety wise it is also insane.

I don't believe Banzai wants his nose wiped, I just think he would like to know whats up with his frame. Answering the phone is not difficult, nor are emails, however I don't do it when I am in the middle of something, I just pick the appropriate time.

I can agree with that as well and I will try to improve on it in the near future however whenever I am building a frame there is seldom anyone around to take my picture.

One last thing for Davet's post above, I noticed Curtlo has a nice website. I need to ask him how its working for him.

I'm not looking to buy a bike from Curtlo, so I don't care what his website looks like and according to at least one person in this thread, his website didn't help him at all; he's waiting for some confirmation of his bike.

If you are an unknown, you have to make me want to buy a frame from you. I don't want to have to struggle, search, peel back layers or interpret what you have to offer. Simple as that. If you want the look of success, view Richard Sachs or Dave Kirk's websites. Fancy? Yes, now, but at one time they were pretty plain. If you read the websites of successful builders, they present pretty clearly and succinctly who, what and where they are. The detail info come further into the reading.

I'm speaking as an interested potential buyer, mulling an idea for a new bike.

Once again, I understand and I totally agree with you. I have wanted a website for quite a while now because I know it will enhance my business, fortunately I managed to stay just busy enough that i got by without it. I am working on it and after talking with you I intend to push it a little faster but most of the money that I made went right back into buying frame building components so the website got pushed aside. I probably could market myself in a better way however I did everything my way in a manner that seemed to make sense at the time. I will have a website soon and I hope you as well as everyone else here will visit it, but I'm keeping the blog because I enjoy it. Thanks again.

Meech, I looked at your website/blog. As a potential consumer I will second what some have said here about the information piece. Honestly, that could even be on a blog...it doesn't really have to be an amazingly fancy website, but while your work looks pretty nice, it does look like a hobby.

As far as the rest...yeah, I don't want constant hand holding. I waited for some time, as I posted, before finally writing this as a way of gathering info. It just all felt odd; communication on the project started really nicely; after the deposit cleared it slammed shut, with a short message expressing that he couldn't even give me an approximate estimate. I gave what I thought was a reasonable time to have a rough forecast...mind you, just a rough forecast, not bugging him about why my frame isn't complete, where are the drawings, etc...I just thought that the time I gave before pressing the communication issue might have been enough for him to have a better idea of his calendar.

A simple one line "I think about six more months...I'll contact you somewhere in that time frame" would put me at ease considerably. I've stated in the messages that I've left that I know he is busy, and that I am NOT trying to get him to promise me an exact completion date...nor am I wondering why it's not done, or started, or anything along those lines. Not this early in the process.

Oh well...still pondering.

Meech, take pictures yourself of bikes in various stages of construction.

Look at Steve Garo's blog (http://coconinocycles.blogspot.com/). He has a website (http://www.juniper-solutions.com/coconinocycles/), but it's mimimalist -- a gallery, a how to order page, and a link to his blog. He didn't even get his own url. He's making a living.

Waltworks is similar. His website is pretty much broken and he does almost everything from his blog. (http://waltworks.blogspot.com/) He also is making a living at building.

Neither one of these guys has many pictures of themselves working.

We've had a few people pass through this and other forums with problems with builders. Those builders had nice web sites. All it shows is that you can pay someone to build a nice website, it doesn't show that you can build bikes.

I appreciate all of the input you all have given me, point taken, and I am gonna try and do a better job, more professional so to speak in the future. Every since I got back from Yamaguchi's 18 months ago I have just been building frames steadily trying to hone in some skills before I started trying to make it my primary business but it seems that I am at that point to step it up. I am working on it. Thanks for looking. Wheres my camera? ;)

Meech,

http://base0.googlehosted.com/base_media?q=http://digitalcontent.cnetchannel.com/c8/3d/c83d2318-31f4-401c-ad75-266be30ed416.jpg&size=20&dhm=818a1e13&hl=en
Vivatar 285HV (~$80 @)
+
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Flash Slave (~<$20 @)
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Slik Tripod (~$25 @)
=
Cheep Studio lighting.

Thanks Allen G, now if I only knew how to use it all. I am a miserable photographer but the good news is that when my customers receive their frames they always tell me that the photos don't do it justice so I come out ahead in the long run.

To whoever may be interested, I have started making some changes to my blog to make it easier to contact me. Part of my problem is that I am as miserable with computers as I am with cameras. Something about things with lots of buttons makes my life a little more complicated, it runs in my family. I am getting better. Thanks for the patience.http://meechcustombikes.blogspot.com/