Advocacy & Safety - Attitudes toward cyclists: How do people see you?

I want in this thread to discuss the mythology drivers attribute to cyclists. This is an effort to understand why they hate us. This time I want this discussion to not not be about the same tired stuff, such as cyclist running red lights and other issues which will turn this into a rant thread which goes no where. Personally, I get tired of these tirades. I've been riding since 1997, so my perspective predates almost all of this behavior on the part of cyclists. Naturally, I will see things more from the perspective as a cyclist who has heard years of older complaints such as, "Why do they have to ride in the road," or "why do they insist on slowing
traffic."

Really what I want to be discussed "here is how are we as cyclists perceived socially?" Why do people assume bike commuters when they just see them on the road are either just rich recreationalists or poor social deviants? Does that describe you or not? What do you feel when you get to be the butt end of someone's erroneous assumptions? Also, I ask, "What do we need to do to change these perceptions?"

When I refer to changing these perceptions, I really want to keep it away from riding style. Discussions about VC vs. Bike Lanes go on ad infinitim and don't belong here to boot. Being oddly (?) neutral on that issue I have no problem with this. What I want is more about, "What goes through the average mind of a driver when they glimpse a cyclist 200 yards ahead of them," or "What does Joe Trucker think about that guy riding a mountain bike in the bike lane." In other words I want to discuss prejudices towards cyclists.

I've been using this forum for years, I don't haunt it regularly because I've lived in an area at one point which was so challenging for cyclists normal discussions on bike stuff failed to address many challenges of the area. I invested my time locally instead, nurturing the few who braved the roads. Now I'm in (not so) sunny Portland and am just way too spoiled. This gives me time to search for the answers to the problems, since riding challenges aren't draining me anymore.

I'm posting a few articles I found in trying to research attitudes towards cyclists. One discusses the history of attitudes towards cyclists. The other is an old thread here, but the content of the article and one quote in it epitomizes what I feel about riding. The last will be pretty controversial, but this is the only article I've found really probing the social rank of we cyclists. Two articles are from VC sources, but I'm not advocating or hating the VC. It just seems like the VC people like Forester are really in to writing about bikes and dominate the cycling literature.

Cycling History
(http://books.google.com/books?id=Qz4kAulpimgC&lpg=PA19&ots=uzPXpMiliQ&dq=cycling%20and%20social%20status&pg=PA18#v=onepage&q=cycling%20and%20social%20status&f=falsehttp://books.google.com/books?id=Qz4kAulpimgC&lpg=PA19&ots=uzPXpMiliQ&dq=cycling%20and%20social%20status&pg=PA18#v=onepage&q=cycling%20and%20social%20status&f=false)
Bike Forums Discussion (http://www.bikeforums.net/archive/index.php/t-1057.html)

The Right to Travel by Human Power (http://www.bicyclinglife.com/EffectiveAdvocacy/Marginalization.htm)


I'll leave this with my all time favorite cyclist quote which came from the thread listed here:


One of my employees, who had just bought a van, adamantly insisted that I put my bike in back and let him drive me home. I had to beg him off... he was genuinely concerned about my safety. The words "dark... run over... traffic... pneumonia..." ran 'round his line of reasoning. I'd heard this all before, so I replied:

"Thank you for your kind and generous offer. I must decline, as I prefer to ride my bike home. Yes, I would rather do so on a sunny 70 F afternoon, but the fact that I am willing... if not exactly eager... to do this today should tell you this: That I LOVE bicycling. A bad ride on a bike beats a comfy ride in a car, NO MATTER WHAT."

Also, I'm not sure what is up with this comedy video, but maybe this should be discussed too. There may be some serious bike prejudice going on there and this motivated me to post this thread:
Bike Shorts? :notamused: (http://www.theonion.com/content/video/ex_pedophile_shares_tips_on_how)

If you're not in spandex then you're poor. If you lack spandex and panniers but ride "skinny tires" then you're a lunatic or beatnik. Those are what I have heard on the road. When I'm casually talking with someone then I'm an environmentalist

What about this attitude, "Bicyclists are wealthy hobbyists with too much money and time on their hands?" While I don't have that kind of attitude toward cyclists, as I mind my own business about the money that cyclists put toward their bikes, I do want to point out one thing, although maybe unrelated, that bikes are not very affordable at bike shops -- even single speed bikes. I do think that cyclists are always closed-minded when it comes to attitudes toward bikes at Wal-Mart, K-Mart, or Target. I don't think the prices for bikes a bike shops are getting lower.

Here is what I think should help motorists: Why not lower prices of bikes down to a minimum of $100 so that more people can purchase the bike at local bike shops? That could change motorists' attitudes toward cyclists, right?

For right now, what market does local bike shops target at? In my opinion, I don't think that bike shops target those who are new to cycling and some people may only have $150 to $200 to spend, especially for those who are poor and need a bike for commuting.

I know this thread is about motorists attitudes toward cyclists, but it's something I'd like to point out. :p

All descriptions can be applied to a broad cross section of the motoring public.... . I think the most common would be, we are lunatics.

If you're not in spandex then you're poor.

Or you got a DUI and lost your license. I was unaware of this stereotype for literally decades, until a Native American co-worker was discussing stereotypes and brought that one up.

Here is what I think should help motorists: Why not lower prices of bikes down to a minimum of $100 so that more people can purchase the bike at local bike shops? That could change motorists' attitudes toward cyclists, right?


I'd like to see something like this work. Problem is, there are economies of scale at work. Once you get enough people cycling, then you can mass produce bikes at a rate high enough to drop the price. The only reason X-marts can do that already, is that they sell bikes designed to be ridden for a short time, then thrown away or put in the back of a garage, and they sell a lot of them.

Anyway, you'd need to get a large population of people willing to cycle with the new lower prices on bikes. That requires a company willing to take a loss until the demand gets going. That's a pretty big risk, too. What happens if the demand doesn't pick up?

I'd like to see something like this work. Problem is, there are economies of scale at work. Once you get enough people cycling, then you can mass produce bikes at a rate high enough to drop the price. The only reason X-marts can do that already, is that they sell bikes designed to be ridden for a short time, then thrown away or put in the back of a garage, and they sell a lot of them.

Anyway, you'd need to get a large population of people willing to cycle with the new lower prices on bikes. That requires a company willing to take a loss until the demand gets going. That's a pretty big risk, too. What happens if the demand doesn't pick up?

At the shop I work at, our shop rate is $60/hour. The opportunity cost of having a decent mechanic build and tune a bike pretty much rules out $100 bikes that we would want to ever see again.

I checked nutty lunatic, but there should have been an option for "health-conscious people trying to improve their health".

I picked the "wealthy" option, as it IS the WORST (not the most common, though). There are four of us at my job that bike-commute -- me, car-free by choice; my bud and co-worker, hasn't commuted much at all this year, but has pretty routinely in the past (the unusually cool summer wimped him out, I think). A third seems to have been somewhat 'inspired' by my relentless riding, and the 4th is a necessity/utility rider. Yet another co-worker, for some ungodly and unknowable reason, decided to try and spread the rumor that I rode because I was confessed alky with a DUI suspension.

Socially, we seem to be unmanly; we're not in the 'norm', our lifestyle is often described as 'alternative', which means 'gay' to most of the mouth-breathing rank-and-file. (Ladies, I've not heard epithets hurled your way, I'm not leaving you out of this one, so don't hate) Our 'good sense' is questioned, we are often a object of pity, as in "do you need a ride home?" **Even my brother does this, and he's seen me ride daily for the last eight years!**

Several people, recently, have started to snicker when they see me rolling out of work, fully geared up; one handicapped older black man addressed me as 'officer' -- I get mistaken for a cop a lot, keeps the thugs from trying to jack me, so I let 'em believe it; they are so ignorant, they can't believe any sane person would ride an expensive bike through 'their' hood.

Overall, though -- because we're different -- we're seen as lesser people.

I'm currently in an epithet-war with a bunch of dumbass cagers in the comment section on a youtube video of a critical mass ride from...June. These boneheads are commenting on a video that was recorded months ago. Most of the comments I can repeat here are "nutjob cyclists" type of commentary...

Where's "all of the above?"

-Kurt

I see that the original poster lives in Portland currently. Sure, PDX is a bicyclists' paradise of sorts but I'm sure there is still quite a bit of conflict with drivers. What situations have you encountered that counter the perception of Portland bicycling?

I'll give you a couple illustrative incidents from Corvallis that show there can be pockets of bike hell even in bike heaven. I have also come to realize that a critical mass of bicyclists can get really annoying after awhile if the riders' stupidity is reinforced by overly courteous* drivers stunned into idiot-conformity by omnipresent ninja and salmon.

In Corvallis, people often try to let me go at 4-way stops when it is clear I have arrived (and stopped) after they have. So I wave them on after they wave me on. But some of them persist. Also, people will encourage to go in front of them when you've entered a turn lane against traffic. Or do the "Phantom 4-way", you stop at the sign like you're supposed to; other guy stops for you even though he's not supposed to. Next guy has no idea why dude is not just going, you slip a little, "splat". When I'm stopped at a place that is or intersects with a crosswalk, they try to get me to go, as if I'm a pedestrian. Again - go ahead if you want to get blasted by the next guy who has no idea what that guy is doing.

In the drivers defense: I see so many bicyclists literally running through intersections without looking. They ride through crosswalks. They ride salmon. Ninja. Side walk it. Run lights. I also see people who look like they should know what they are doing bust left turns by salmoning up the lane and cutting wrong-way-in instead of just getting in the middle and turning like they should. Today I saw something totally new: a guy rides around to the right of a line of traffic waiting for the protected left turn. He rides up into the oncoming lane, then cuts right around the turning traffic back into the bike lane.

Obviously Corvallis is a university town, a smug-bubble, and people have habituated to years of collegiate danger-biking. Its like there is a tacit agreement that bicyclists are just going to be anywhere and everywhere, riding recklessly at any given time. I see people with nice bikes, recumbents, even roadies just doing the most moronic stuff. I can't pin down why there is this cloud of bicycle-backwardsness that hangs over downtown and the college areas. I refuse to go along with it, and call it out sometimes when I see it. The bad part is you go not that far away from town and things revert back to the anti-roadie, anti-bicyclist mentality. So you have all these people training themselves to not look out for people, let alone cars. If they left town they'd be roadkill instantaneously.

I had a bad experience the other day just outside of town where a woman driving a Ford F250 and pulling a huge horse trailer was not giving much notice to the bike lane before crossing Philomath boulevard on 53rd in town. After the light, the bike lane vanishes, and I was wanting to get a good start to claim some lane for myself before that trailer got near me again. Sure as anything, I get a good jump on the light, pedal up quickly and the first few cars filter pass, giving me a wide birth. I look over my shoulder, see the truck. There are two cars close in the other lane, but after that the road clears. I figure she'll slow a little and go around once the congestion clears in what wouldn't be more than a few seconds. NOPE. She goes right through, giving me NO lane whatsoever. The horse trailer was so close to my face it is bringing nervous sweat to the surface just thinking about.

Anyway I'm confrontation averse except for occasional telling of people "You're supposed to ride the other way in the bike lane!" but I knew I needed to let this woman know how incredibly dangerous that was (wife shakes head disapprovingly). She pulls up to the fairgrounds not that much farther past, and I roll up right behind her.

"Hi, I was wondering if you knew how close you were to hitting me back there?"

"What?" As if she had no idea.

"Did you not just cross Philomath back there?" I'm feeling that ugly feeling of too-high adrenaline and a venomous sense of being wronged...

Anyway she proceeds to tell me how she knew it was totally fine back there, whatever man, she says. I was nowhere near you. Quit your *****ing. What she couldn't answer is WHY she needed to hurry up to slow down and stop. Before, I thought experiencing the yelling and pointing in that neck of the woods was the worst I'd be in for.

They just don't see us as people.

I'd like to see something like this work. Problem is, there are economies of scale at work. Once you get enough people cycling, then you can mass produce bikes at a rate high enough to drop the price. The only reason X-marts can do that already, is that they sell bikes designed to be ridden for a short time, then thrown away or put in the back of a garage, and they sell a lot of them.

Anyway, you'd need to get a large population of people willing to cycle with the new lower prices on bikes. That requires a company willing to take a loss until the demand gets going. That's a pretty big risk, too. What happens if the demand doesn't pick up?

Wow, you make some great points there. You are right in expecting the market to do nothing for bike advocacy. It is supply and demand at work with this. X-marts will sell junky bikes people give to their kids to be used a few years and then be delegated to the garage and ultimately the trash. These stores wouldn't buy up expensive bikes for I think a few reasons. Some bike brands authorize some bike shops to carry their brand, and dissuade the shop from selling other brands. Hence why Shop A sells a ton of Bianchi's and Shop B will sell Cannodales and Felts. I don't know all the ins and outs of this but I wonder if it is just X-marts that won't sell them or bike companies that won't make X-marts dealers?

You are regrettably right about how it is the fact that people won't invest in buying a bike which leads to a loss risk which dissuades the sale of these bikes. Even bike shops I've seen (in Cincinnati) know where their bread is buttered. These shops work on selling top of the line bikes to top of the line customers. Some shops there found the idea of marketing to a new segment, urban users or commuters as insane years ago. For them it is that. It is better to rake in as much cash for a $3000 dollar bike and curry the favor of people who buy those bikes.

For those who truly love bikes and want safer streets for cyclists, this doesn't help matters. First of all it reduces the number of people who feel they want to ride, and because of this endanger other cyclists as we must ride alone on those streets. These shop guys don't understand that there is more involved than people just having the money to buy those bikes. Even when I had cash, I had to get the nerve to swallow what driver judgment I had and buy a bike over $500. What kept going through my mind was, "I will have real expenses and this bike thing is just an experiment. What if I blow the cash, hate it, or have other expenses come up." What fully went through my mind when I put that first money down is that I'm being both irresponsible and childish. I just want this bike because it feels good to ride it. Eventually I found that I was up to the task of the bike and loved it. I also guarded it jealously from the thief crowd.

The issue is sort of like this: It isn't how much water skis cost which is an issue for me- drop the price and you still won't find me buying them. It is more about whether skis are a practical purchase in my mind than the cost of them. If boats loved taunting water skiers, then the issue of selling skis would be all the more complex.

It means getting gear which can take wear and not get stolen is harder and often I've bought inappropriate bikes for my commuting (too nice). Portland shops tend to cater better to a cross section of the general public but this is because the general public actually rides there.

All this points to the problem just being lingering entrenched attitudes about bikes and who uses them even by the bike community. When I came on the scene and bike commuted, I saw the many good reasons for doing this- and also loved riding. I naively thought brewing environmental issues would cinche new demographic into riding. Really what I saw was what everyone here sees- it is practical, healthy, good for the planet and invigorating to ride.

The problem is that the bike shops then (and now) and the driving public didn't see it that way. The spandexies chuckled at me and my ilk. What they were thinking was, "You are going to die (riding the city)." The driving public chuckled at me and my ilk. What they were thinking was, "You are going to die." The problem is that I read much about riding and I also had confidence in my abilities. I didn't die. What this shows however is there is a lingering prejudice towards bicycles and their riders that what they do is so impractical and dangerous, there is just no point in caring about them and investing in them. Worse, this prejudice leads to us being feared and poorly understood.

For the market to change demand has to change, for demand to change people have to change. The only answer is to make people want not just bikes but good bikes. Since almost no one but members of our "cult" tend to know anything about "good" bikes (by good I don't mean any bike over $1000 but NOT a bike bought at X-mart). Really the issue of whether it is better to ride carbon fiber dream bikes or more basic aluminum, cro-moly bikes is only something which matters to us. Most of the public has no experience of any of these bikes. Why should they? Bikes all look the same and what X-mart puts out is so evil heavy that I wonder if parents are trying to torture their kids with those bikes by buying them.

Seeing it like this it is pretty obvious why we are judged in the above manners- it is only because those who judge do this in the absense of real information. How does this change? We change the public. We have events where newbies can touch, hold and ride good/decent bikes and realize there is a world beyond their limited knowledge. I have spent 12 years thinking about these issues, reading about these issues and have shed much blood on the streets. The idea of acquainting the public with what we ride would go a long way- provided it stays the heck away from the "I'm better than you because I have a $1800 bike b.s Trust me, nothing divides the bike community more than that attitude. If we started a thread about $600 bikes vs. $3000 bikes we would have a thread to dwarf the VC/Bike lane thread and even more banned members.:rolleyes:

"Bikes are supposed to stay out of the way."

Was yelled to me by a motorist that had just gone out of their way to cross the double yellow line about 2 car lengths before a red light only to then pull up behind a car waiting on the right to make a right turn. This was on a residential street with a 25MPH speed limit that is reinforced with speed bumps about a half a block further back. The road is typically lined with parked cars. I was traveling right down the center of the right lane (one lane each way) approaching the red light and planning to go straight.

This dunderhead decided I was in his way... of approaching the red light. Not to mention that he was turning right... and there was already a car there poised on the right of this narrow road waiting to turn right. In other words, the dunderhead had no place to go, but just had to pass me before we both rolled up to the red light. He came up behind me, and then roared around me, just barely making it into the gap between me and the car already stopped ahead. And he had to put himself in danger by crossing the double yellow to do this (there could have been traffic approaching on the road with the green signal)

The driver yelled..."bikes are supposed to get out of the way."

That's it. Motorists think bikes are supposed to get out of the way... even when we aren't in the way, even when we are going different directions, even when we are both rolling to an immediate stop.

I see that the original poster lives in Portland currently. Sure, PDX is a bicyclists' paradise of sorts but I'm sure there is still quite a bit of conflict with drivers. What situations have you encountered that counter the perception of Portland bicycling?




I'm living on the outskirts of PDX actually and I know full well it isn't paradise. The problem is that I came from one of the worst cities in the U.S. to bike- that is according to Bicycling Magazine. Just one of 11 communities rated bad for bikes in 2008, and I'm sure Texas and other places were taken into account in the article. That city has managed to avoid having cyclists and I found out the hard way it was for some very serious reasons. The Southwest hills in PDX have their share of hotheads, but even the worst of them in no way approaches drivers from my city.

The Basics: What the biking issues are in Cincinnati. (http://www.citybeat.com/cincinnati/print-article-16360-print.html#)

Naturally, the issues of Portland seem quite manageable compared to ones I'm used to. I hope contribute here with the hard learning I had there. At least I know better what life is like when people don't care about these issues.

Oh, and cycling issues here in PDX? Well out here in the burbs and even downtown I've had a few drivers try to shove into my path from the right. One large pick up truck driver decided to taunt me by deliberately trying to gently T-bone me at a stop sign intersection late at night. The problem he had is that I'm not from here and that hard-core East Coast rudeness and the bluffing I used in Cincinnati to back down aggressive drivers tends to send even the worst Oregon thugs into a state of confused shock.
For one thing, a common Cincy driver practice is to intentionally go ahead and make their left turn in your path while you are hurtling towards them. Ohio law concludes both drivers and cyclists have the right of way and that a turning car has to wait for you to pass. However, many drivers will glare at you and know full well you can't stop in time and make that turn regardless. I had to develop an entire strategy for that situation. One place this would happen all the time was actually at the bottom of a hill on Ludlow Ave. I would ride down that very huge hill, get up to maybe 35, 40 mph and right at the bottom was a light with a left turn lane with no green arrow. Drivers would bully me there by turning and just pretending I wasn't there. The first year I rode I saw a cyclist who'd been struck at that intersection from what was obviously this sort of activity. I saw this college student guy being laid up on a stretcher, but didn't understand this was a common problem until later.

It's not just me who's noticed this. This page lists a potpourri of events which give the feel of riding in my city. (http://www.urbanup.net/cycling/index.php?PHPSESSID=33bea076d1d228fc7d59a4daad4f7f97&topic=23.0)

There are just some fundamental cultural difference between the two areas. Here, 2500 miles away drivers drive fundamentally different than in my home city. Portland drivers will typically go the speed limit and often will cruise 5 to 10 miles under it. Drivers in Cincinnati will all go 10 miles over the speed limit on average. Even I did driving there. You really can't go slower without severely agitating drivers behind you and they will let you know it. Drivers in Portland will insist on leaving great distance between them and the car in front of them- even while stopped. Sure, Ohio driver's ed tells you to leave one car length, but no one ever does that. Oregonians I've met say they go crazy when driving in the east. They say people tailgate all the time. We do. Actually what we call tailgating is often much more serious than our normal driving protocol. When someone in my city complains about a tailgater, it usually refers to someone in a fit of road rage riding inches off your bumper.

However, the primary difference between the two cities and for that matter, the difference between Cincy and many other cities is shown by statistics.

Cincinnati was ranked #1 for people who text message while driving:
(http://cincinnati.momslikeme.com/members/JournalActions.aspx?g=246568&m=5810555)
Cincinnati was ranked #6 for road rage: (http://www.local12.com/news/local/story/Cincinnati-Among-the-Worst-Cities-for-Road-Rage/-YS5KLwGEUyF8XiX5ohfNg.cspx)

The problem is really that the city is car-centric to the point of overkill. Our public transit system has been a joke at best. It was so bad that communities which relied on the poor bus service took up arms and fought a ballot proposal for a light rail in 2001 because it didn't serve their communities. As bad as this reaction was, I understand it fully. Riding a bike was often more feasible for me than busing. I understand the city will now have trolleys, but it did this knowing it would sacrifice federal funding for a light rail in the process.

It was even so bad, our public transit was made fun of by a television series in Canada:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RuvPpzPiIec

This problem of insisting on cars led to our city being #6 on a list of cities with the most expensive commutes. (http://www.forbes.com/2007/08/07/commute-housing-expensive-forbeslife-cx_mw_0807realestate_slide_7.html?thisSpeed=30000)

I think this just translates to the rest of America as an example as to why things like bike and public transit infrastructure are important to people's lives. I think of a conservative Portlander I met who was upset about the tax money spent to fund the MAX (light rail). The truth is that cars just aren't cheap. This truth is easy for a cyclist to see. We naturally think of weight improving efficiency in transit. Car travel is about one person toting 2+ tons of metal with them everywhere they go. Drivers pay for the energy to move 2 tons of metal with each ride they take. A train with 100+ people in it divides the cost of moving the train cars amongst themselves. A bicyclist only pays to move about 20 lbs with each trip they take. Energy costs money, so this is where the math actually counts.

So to me Portland/Oregon is paradise, if only by comparison. I know full well there are issues here, and they concern me all the same. At least here there are many other people who take these issues seriously and who will refuse to let things like cyclists' deaths go unnoticed. No other city will go out just a few months after some cyclists are killed and completely repaint intersections to prevent future bike fatalities from right hand turns. Also I love how the city flip flopped the parking lane and the bike lane in front of PSU so that cyclists don't get doored while passing campus. That cool beyond words- painted parking places are further in the street now, with the bike lane running between them and the sidewalk. :p

Yeah, well all my co-workers think I'm crazy except of course the few that bike commute themselves but even a lot of them think I'm crazy because I ride on roads they are afraid to ride on and my commute is 45 miles round trip. The funniest thing is if it rains people always ask "you didn't ride in today did you?" I answer, why not, I'm not the Wicked Witch of the West. I get this last one even from very accomplished recreational cyclists. The other thing is when I get held up at work and people are always telling me "you had better leave now or it will be dark before you get home." I tell them "oh, it's healthier to ride at night, my melanoma risk goes down to almost zero." But it's weird in the cyclists world too, I wear Lycra on my commute because it is just plain more comfortable given the distance I'm riding and the climate (I live in the tropics). But there are groups of utilitarian types that are always making fun of the "Lycra crowd." Hey, 90% of my riding is utilitarian. I guess everyone just likes to make fun of people who aren't like them. Mountain bikers make fun of roadies and vise versa. I commute on this (http://wendell.shidler.hawaii.edu/DP/DP.jpg) so I'm forever getting asked "isn't it harder pedaling a bike with small wheels?" (by the way, the picture is on my commute). Serves me well professionally though. I do consulting on the side and a lot of what I do is actually not that hard but I can charge a lot per hour because people don't think they could possibly figure it out for themselves. If I behaved more like them they might figure out that my "expert knowledge" isn't really beyond their reach.

I checked nutty lunatic, but there should have been an option for "health-conscious people trying to improve their health".

Good answer. The poll did beg the question by listing only negative stereotypes. My acquaintances do commend me for my level of fitness. Maybe public atttitude towards bicyclists are similar to those sometimes expressed toward the US Congress: my rep is a great guy, but the rest are idiots.


...Really what I want to be discussed "here is how are we as cyclists perceived socially?" ...

I think that the general social perception of cyclists, is overall not laudatory. I have previously posted this as the most accurate and concise description of such perceptions, IMO:


I've found that most Americans think of bikes in three ways: children's toys, exotic toys for fitness fanatics and transportation of last resort for the impoverished and disadvantaged. It's socially acceptable for an adult to dress up like a circus acrobat with friends once a week, run around in circles as quickly as possible with no other purpose or destination, but to ride a bike somewhere for a purpose implies some sort of need and is looked upon as an act of desperation.

It took me two readings to realize that an "...adult to dress up like a circus acrobat with friends once a week, run around in circles as quickly as possible with no other purpose or destination..." refers to joggers. :lol:

All descriptions can be applied to a broad cross section of the motoring public.... . I think the most common would be, we are lunatics.

Yep, We are...

I picked the "wealthy" option, as it IS the WORST (not the most common, though).

Yet another co-worker, for some ungodly and unknowable reason, decided to try and spread the rumor that I rode because I was confessed alky with a DUI suspension.

Socially, we seem to be unmanly; we're not in the 'norm', our lifestyle is often described as 'alternative', which means 'gay' to most of the mouth-breathing rank-and-file. (Ladies, I've not heard epithets hurled your way, I'm not leaving you out of this one, so don't hate) Our 'good sense' is questioned, we are often a object of pity, as in "do you need a ride home?" **Even my brother does this, and he's seen me ride daily for the last eight years!**

Several people, recently, have started to snicker when they see me rolling out of work, fully geared up; one handicapped older black man addressed me as 'officer' -- I get mistaken for a cop a lot, keeps the thugs from trying to jack me, so I let 'em believe it; they are so ignorant, they can't believe any sane person would ride an expensive bike through 'their' hood.


Wow, I missed all those. I thought about putting the "gay" one in however that seemed beside the point. However there is one horror story in Bicycling Magazine about a SE Ohio cop who attempts to arrest two club cyclists for "riding in the road." (http://bicycling.com/blogs/roadrights/2009/04/22/the-right-to-disobey-cops/) His clearly made up accusations included accusing the cyclists of jiggling their asses to taunt him. What appears obvious to me is that this cop is really insecure about men clad in tight clothes in the open and at best concludes that they must be gay. This doesn't surprise me. I knew a racing cyclist years ago who was threatened with a shot gun and called a *** when he made a wrong turn on someone's private driveway in Kentucky. "Get of my land you goddamned ******" were his words I was told. Funny because I knew this guy through going to class with his wife.

Second, I did meet one guy who was riding a mountain bike years and years ago because he had a DUI. I've never been accused of this one, but some young girl said, "Bet you can't drive" when I was cruising through a park. That's funny because I read my first book on bikes/bike commuting when getting frustrated looking at Haynes manuals at the library to fix my car. That book on the shelf just nearby and I thought it would be a fun ironic read. Instead it proved to give decent practical advice which led me both to conceive of bike commuting and the fact that the average person could do it.

The cop thing- I've been accused of that. Even a friend who was Black riding in the neighborhood he lived would hear people shout, "5-0" when he'd ride down a block. People have thought the same of me, too.




"Bikes are supposed to stay out of the way."


I and most of my friends have been told, "GET ON THE SIDEWALK." That is illegal in my city. We also don't really have bike lanes, save for just a few token ones, so we tend to "be in the way," since there is usually no where else to go (narrow old streets). One time during a group ride, we were taking the lane to avoid the doorzone and had a car behind us honking manically. There was one teenage boy rider with us that day and he shouted to the driver, "Get on the sidewalk."

The only time locals treated me like a human and actually asked about my bike is when I was back there when gas prices shot up. I'm sure if gas prices went up everything would change- to an extent. There was a news story that people were taking up prostituting to pay for gas during the price surge of 2008.
I won't bother hoping for gas to go up in price. No matter what's happened this country, the only time in a decade Mom and Pop America was willing to go out and protest was when a few gas stations price gouged taking advantage of the instability of the gas prices in 2008. Worse, I think there are people who would rather eat their children than give up driving. I don't want to live to see extreme gas prices- there will be complete anarchy if this happens. Sure people could just ride bikes and the smart ones will, but the rest I really can't vouch for and am quite afraid of.

They see me the way they see other motor vehicle drivers and everyone else. Someone that's just on earth to get in their way, on the road, in the checkout line, etc, etc, etc.

I could apply a qualifier though. There is a huge difference in public opinion from across the Big Pond.. Riding in France, Spain we are considered warriors and not uncommon.. You'll see many really , really, really old people on bikes going to market on their bikes.. I"ve had young girls and old women cheer on this non racer type cyclist.. While on the other side of the pond 2/3's of the year, we are considered equals to motorists... They treat cyclists with more respect than pedestrians , as long as that pedestrian is not walking a dog.. Dog lovers get respect..

I'd recommend that the OP spend less time "attributing" his own attitude consisting of negative stereotypes and gross generalizations about cyclists to everyone else. Dressing up his own "mythologies" about cyclists as a poll seeking "understanding" and discussion, does not change the flavor or intent of a one sided rant.

One place this would happen all the time was actually at the bottom of a hill on Ludlow Ave. I would ride down that very huge hill, get up to maybe 35, 40 mph and right at the bottom was a light with a left turn lane with no green arrow. Drivers would bully me there by turning and just pretending I wasn't there.

Why didn't you just take the lane - then they can't left hook you.

There was a news story that people were taking up prostituting to pay for gas during the price surge of 2008.

Proof that for some, pedaling their ass is more objectionable than peddling it!

Why conduct a poll that has no reasonable choices?

My guess is most motorists would not fall into any of those categories. Projecting these choices on to others is a great way to make yourself miserable or hateful. Most cyclists and motorists I know do not subscribe to this kind of paranoia. The most common problem I have with motorists is that they are over accommodating. They stop or slow for me when I am slowing to let them pass.

I think we'd all be better off if we thought more about how we are all fellow operators of vehicles, instead of promoting the tribalism of 'We Are the Cyclists.'

I'd recommend that the OP spend less time "attributing" his own attitude consisting of negative stereotypes and gross generalizations about cyclists to everyone else. Dressing up his own "mythologies" about cyclists as a poll seeking "understanding" and discussion, does not change the flavor or intent of a one sided rant.

Didn't see this when I posted mine. Well put.

The profit margins are very slim on a $100 bike, and you can get those at Wal-Mart now. You're not gonna get a good road bike for a $100.

Privately owned bike shops cannot survive without the road biker hobbyist who spends a few bucks.


I'd like to see something like this work. Problem is, there are economies of scale at work. Once you get enough people cycling, then you can mass produce bikes at a rate high enough to drop the price. The only reason X-marts can do that already, is that they sell bikes designed to be ridden for a short time, then thrown away or put in the back of a garage, and they sell a lot of them.

Anyway, you'd need to get a large population of people willing to cycle with the new lower prices on bikes. That requires a company willing to take a loss until the demand gets going. That's a pretty big risk, too. What happens if the demand doesn't pick up?

The profit margins are very slim on a $100 bike, and you can get those at Wal-Mart now. You're not gonna get a good road bike for a $100.

Privately owned bike shops cannot survive without the road biker hobbyist who spends a few bucks.
Even a single-speed cruiser bike with coaster brake?

O wad some Power the giftie gie us
To see oursels as ithers see us!
It wad frae monie a blunder free us,
An' foolish notion:
What airs in dress an' gait wad lea'e us,
An' ev'n devotion!

Robert Burns

I could care less, what motorists think of me. If they are supportive or, are encouraging, great. But, If they are confrontational, antagonistic, belligerent and obstinate, I won't give them an inch.

I'd recommend that the OP spend less time "attributing" his own attitude consisting of negative stereotypes and gross generalizations about cyclists to everyone else. Dressing up his own "mythologies" about cyclists as a poll seeking "understanding" and discussion, does not change the flavor or intent of a one sided rant.

Really, how is this a "one sided rant?" I really don't think ahead far enough to design polls with ulterior motives, especially when I have little experience posting them. I posted this poll as an adjunct to an already existing thread on the forum from years ago. If you read the links, you'd sort of see this isn't my idea, that people all over the cycling community from John Forester to people in this forum have discussed the issue of erroneous public perception of cyclists. Also to qualify that post as a rant, would entail me at least saying "Oh, it is just so terrible, let's go blow some traffic lights and U-lock some SUV's. No. This is not a rant. READ the articles liked to the first part.

For the reading impaired here's a quote from John Forester in the article about the history of cycling:
Then the economic boom of the 1950's changed society drastically. People strove for cars and avoided the bicycle as a "cheap" item... (In the 1950's) cycling was sneered at, not for being lower class, (which it was not, because blue collar families owned cars) but for being childhish, absurd, foolish or crazy.



I know Forester was really just ranting and trying to flame cyclists (like me) so lets revisit the other articles:

What some OTHER forum member wrote to start basically the same thread in 2000:

mike
12-15-00, 09:48 PM
Is it just where I live, or the place I work, or do other bicycle commuters have to put up with being perceived as some kind of alien freak for bicycle commuting to work? I work at a facility with over 1,200 employees. I am one of two bicycle commuters and am the only year round bicyclist.

Especially now that winter is coming on, it is the peak season for people looking at you wierd and, sometimes even treating you like some kind of weirdo simply for chosing to use bicycle transportation in all types of weather. If I go into some public government office with my bicycle helmet under my arm and gaitors on (winter), people just about jump under the tables.

The fact is, I can't resist looking with some degree of amazed curiosity at my neighbors who drive their teen-age kids three city blocks to drop them off at school and then they drive less than three miles to work. These are the people who complain about gasoline prices and are "concerned" about local air pollution. These same people say that I should join mainstream USA. Who is nuts here?

Is it the same around the USA, or is it just here in Gooberville?



Here is a quote from the third article on the first post:



Bicyclists, Motorists and the Language of Marginalization

Mighk Wilson
Racism, Sexism and Mode-ism
Some might be offended by the idea of comparing the hatred and violence directed at bicyclists with the hatred and violence directed at people due to race, culture or gender. Yet, I believe it is entirely appropriate.

In his book The Culture of Make Believe author Derrick Jensen shows how violence in our culture is tied to three factors. First, is the person significantly different from me; do I see him or her as less human, or less important, than myself? Second, does this person seem to have something I want, like resources (as the American colonists saw the native tribes) or labor* (as Europeans and colonists saw Africans), or do I see this person as a threat to the resources I hold (as the Nazis saw the Jews). Last, will my culture support, accept or choose to ignore my hatred or violence? If the answer to all three is yes, violence is all but inevitable in our culture.


To some in our culture, bicyclists are strange people who wear odd clothes and act childishly. Native Americans were described in those same terms by colonists. But what do we take, or seem to take, from motorists? It�s time, the ultimate abstract resource. We are perceived as being a "hindrance" to motorists. We supposedly steal their precious time. (Never mind that the vast majority of motorist delay is caused by motorists.) And where does our culture stand on hatred toward cyclists? I can�t say it�s supported, but it is often ignored and accepted as "natural."


The bulk of this essay will address the many injustices, and elements of those injustices, that bicyclists experience.


Yes, so go ahead and attack me for doing a shoddy repost of other cycling writers ideas and seeking to get a discussion about these writers ideas going. All I did was add a few more naive assumptions made about our ilk and frame it in a poll. Geeze people!:rolleyes:

I checked the "too poor" option.. Explaining to people I have two cars and that I ride by my own choice is growing tiresome..

Really, how is this a "one sided rant?" I really don't think ahead far enough to design polls with ulterior motives, especially when I have little experience posting them. I posted this poll as an adjunct to an already existing thread on the forum from years ago. If you read the links, you'd sort of see this isn't my idea, that people all over the cycling community from John Forester to people in this forum have discussed the issue of erroneous public perception of cyclists. Also to qualify that post as a rant, would entail me at least saying "Oh, it is just so terrible, let's go blow some traffic lights and U-lock some SUV's. No. This is not a rant. READ the articles liked to the first part.

For the reading impaired here's a quote from John Forester in the article about the history of cycling:

I know Forester was really just ranting and trying to flame cyclists (like me) so lets revisit the other articles:

What some OTHER forum member wrote to start basically the same thread in 2000:


Here is a quote from the third article on the first post:




Yes, so go ahead and attack me for doing a shoddy repost of other cycling writers ideas and seeking to get a discussion about these writers ideas going. All I did was add a few more naive assumptions made about our ilk and frame it in a poll. Geeze people!:rolleyes:

It's a stupid poll and a one sided rant because the only option you gave were ridiculous. The only option you gave painted the poll takers as motorists who have very low and stupid opinions about cyclists. Anyone who answered your stupid poll bought into this nonsense. Blaming others in the past for your part in perpetuating this does not relieve you of the responsibility.

You want to argue? Then please tell us which of the possible answers you posted YOU agree with.

Taking the lane was what I was doing. It doesn't work in this regard. Here's a graphic of the situation to clarify:

Situation referred to as the "Left Hook:"

http://i598.photobucket.com/albums/tt64/bonkersyonkers/lefthook.jpg

The situation is that you are proceeding straight in the path of a left car which intend to turn. Both you and the car have a green light, and the intersection has no green arrow in the turn lanes. The driver in this situation is usually of the mindset that bikes don't belong on the road and that the cyclist doesn't have the right of way when law states both cyclist and car have the right of way. It is simply and usually defiant driver ignorance which can be manifest violently. I had an accident with a car where he turned with no signal in my path in this manner. He cut in front of me, I didn't have time to stop, my bike hit the side of the front of his car and my body went over the bike and hit the top of the car.

This graphic is of how an old bike book suggests adapting to the situation:
http://i598.photobucket.com/albums/tt64/bonkersyonkers/img061.jpg

My improvisation on this technique:
http://i598.photobucket.com/albums/tt64/bonkersyonkers/bikichart.jpg

I'd recommend that the OP spend less time "attributing" his own attitude consisting of negative stereotypes and gross generalizations about cyclists to everyone else. Dressing up his own "mythologies" about cyclists as a poll seeking "understanding" and discussion, does not change the flavor or intent of a one sided rant.

I agree, this poll focuses on negative stereotypes. Although I think Americans overall think of bikes as toys meant for either children or fitness fanatics they don't show the hatred and indignation I used to see in the seventies and early eighties. The people I know personally seem to respect me for doing it.

If you're not in spandex then you're poor. If you lack spandex and panniers but ride "skinny tires" then you're a lunatic or beatnik. Those are what I have heard on the road. When I'm casually talking with someone then I'm an environmentalist

Ah, A lunatic. So that is what I am. I ride an '03 Specialized Allez Triple with very thin tires.

It's a stupid poll and a one sided rant because the only option you gave were ridiculous. The only option you gave painted the poll takers as motorists who have very low and stupid opinions about cyclists. Anyone who answered your stupid poll bought into this nonsense. Blaming others in the past for your part in perpetuating this does not relieve you of the responsibility.

You want to argue? Then please tell us which of the possible answers you posted YOU agree with.

Maybe I should reframe the title of the poll as "negative stereotypes of cyclists- ever been accused of one of these?"
Sorry if I'm not trying to numb the challenges we face by painting rosy pictures of a very serious and complicated situation. Trust me I'm not here to argue. The place I am going with this is reaching the place in driver's minds where they see us as socially acceptable enough or just human enough to accommodate us on the roads. This forum is rife with horror stories about dead cyclists and some unfortunate war which seems to go on between driver and cyclist. When I first started riding I thought following the rules of the road and being courteous would get through to people.
However, in some situations I met drivers who were already on attack mode when they saw me yards ahead of them on the road and would gun their engines and speed by, buzzing me close.

I'm not interested in joining the debate team here, either. Want to know what I've been thought to be on the list- ALL OF THE ABOVE. In the same day I'd meet some guy who'd suggest I'd lived in a wealthy neighborhood, or went to that pricey university near where I lived. I'd have poor people throw bottles at me in their neighborhoods and ask me if I spent tons of money on my bike. In the same day I'd ride another portion of town and get subtle and not so subtle suggestions of poverty. An ex of mine was once thought to be homeless for riding a bike and offered some free clothing and things by a generous benefactor.

I don't take all of this that seriously until someone is willing to use violence to back up their prejudice. I did post this with some humorous intent behind this. That link to the video on the first page was a video from the Onion. I still don't know what pedophiles and bike shorts have to do with each other, but if it suggests that pedophiles ride bikes this is a new idea I'm not familiar with.

So whatever. I guess rant seekers are out for the hunt today and debates, wars and other issues in other articles. People who are itching for a fight are latching on to this post. I know some of the wars already happening on the forum and all I have to say is that if you've been in this forum long enough you can see where both sides are coming from and that each have valid points and not so valid points.

Oh, I miss the days when the forum was more about intellectual and NOT ideological discussions. I'm not here to join any wars going on- I'm here to solve problems and see things in a new light. I think most of these wars wouldn't happen if people spent more time thinking outside the box and furthering intellectual progress on solving the placement of bikes in our society.

It's a stupid poll and a one sided rant because the only option you gave were ridiculous.

I notice you are from the Northwest. This brings up another point. Often times it is forgotten that we in this forum live or have lived in places with very different driving cultures. Some people can't understand the anger which comes from people from some cities because they have no familiarity or experience dealing with the said situation. I think we need to document and show how each region differs and take this into account when discussions arise.

I have no video of my experiences, but to show you just how driving culture varies this video from somewhere else shows maybe why someone in Portland can't relate to the gripes of someone in New York, or Atlanta.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=DE&v=UF2eLT0VRVA

More closer to actual science, the pedestrian death rates for American cities vary so much, that it is evident that different cultural approaches to road use are at play. NYC is known for having an average of some 200 pedestrian deaths per year, while here in Portland if a pedestrian dies it is very rare. New York is also rated as the number one city for road rage in America. Statistics merely demonstrate that drivers feel, think and react very differently in different cities. Cities with higher instances of road rage create environments where cyclists feel more antagonistic towards drivers to some extent. Again, this is why I don't feed either side of most arguments because I know that each person has a unique experience and valid points according to what their life experience is. What works in San Diego is liable to be a failure in Texas. New Yorkers tend to be expressive and "rude," where as people in Portland tend to be very polite and restrained. In some cities you are surrounded by people all the time and competitiveness is engaged in by all. Other cities may have less people and be more cooperative.

Here is a statistic table of pedestrian deaths by state in 2005
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-03-26-pedestrian-deaths_N.htm

where's "all of the above?"

-kurt

+1

I notice you are from the Northwest. This brings up another point. Often times it is forgotten that we in this forum live or have lived in places with very different driving cultures. Some people can't understand the anger which comes from people from some cities because they have no familiarity or experience dealing with the said situation. I think we need to document and show how each region differs and take this into account when discussions arise.

I have no video of my experiences, but to show you just how driving culture varies this video from somewhere else shows maybe why someone in Portland can't relate to the gripes of someone in New York, or Atlanta.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=DE&v=UF2eLT0VRVA

More closer to actual science, the pedestrian death rates for American cities vary so much, that it is evident that different cultural approaches to road use are at play. NYC is known for having an average of some 200 pedestrian deaths per year, while here in Portland if a pedestrian dies it is very rare. New York is also rated as the number one city for road rage in America. Statistics merely demonstrate that drivers feel, think and react very differently in different cities. Cities with higher instances of road rage create environments where cyclists feel more antagonistic towards drivers to some extent. Again, this is why I don't feed either side of most arguments because I know that each person has a unique experience and valid points according to what their life experience is. What works in San Diego is liable to be a failure in Texas. New Yorkers tend to be expressive and "rude," where as people in Portland tend to be very polite and restrained. In some cities you are surrounded by people all the time and competitiveness is engaged in by all. Other cities may have less people and be more cooperative.

Here is a statistic table of pedestrian deaths by state in 2005
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-03-26-pedestrian-deaths_N.htm

I've seen the video in YouTube before. That truck is pretty crazy for pushing off the cyclist...

Also, a more recent (2008) statistic for New York about Pedestrian/Motor Vehicle Accidents is available here:
http://www.nydmv.state.ny.us/Statistics/2008PedestrianSummaryNOTB5.pdf

Here is what I think should help motorists: Why not lower prices of bikes down to a minimum of $100 so that more people can purchase the bike at local bike shops? That could change motorists' attitudes toward cyclists, right?

I doubt it. If you ask your average non-cycling motorist how much a bike costs, few of them will think that an expensive bike costs more than maybe $300 or so. Many think that all bikes cost "around $100".

Just look at accident reports that people give on this forum. Motorist sometimes say they'll cover the cost of the bike out of pocket, to avoid filing an insurance claim - then are astounded to get a $2000 bill.

they see me the way they see other motor vehicle drivers and everyone else. Someone that's just on earth to get in their way, on the road, in the checkout line, etc, etc, etc.

+1

....... This is an effort to understand why they hate us. .....


It is not that your average cyclist is an anti-car, hypocritical road hogging oracle for the Goricle; its just that, like so man 'progressive' advocacy groups, our cause is hijacked by these publicity seeking morons, and we become stereotyped and categorized by Mazzholes and such.

roughstuff

Taking the lane was what I was doing. It doesn't work in this regard. Here's a graphic of the situation to clarify:

Situation referred to as the "Left Hook:"

http://i598.photobucket.com/albums/tt64/bonkersyonkers/lefthook.jpg

The situation is that you are proceeding straight in the path of a left car which intend to turn. Both you and the car have a green light, and the intersection has no green arrow in the turn lanes. The driver in this situation is usually of the mindset that bikes don't belong on the road and that the cyclist doesn't have the right of way when law states both cyclist and car have the right of way. It is simply and usually defiant driver ignorance which can be manifest violently. I had an accident with a car where he turned with no signal in my path in this manner. He cut in front of me, I didn't have time to stop, my bike hit the side of the front of his car and my body went over the bike and hit the top of the car.

This graphic is of how an old bike book suggests adapting to the situation:
http://i598.photobucket.com/albums/tt64/bonkersyonkers/img061.jpg

My improvisation on this technique:
http://i598.photobucket.com/albums/tt64/bonkersyonkers/bikichart.jpg

I had trouble understanding your improvisation. Is there a way you can enlarge it?

I get the "you're a nut" thing, but usually it's mixed with some respect. I don't think the respect is based on any bias other than "biking is kind of difficult." That's when I'm off the bike obviously. I generally don't bring the subject up, but my wife will or I'll have the bike with me.

On the bike I don't think most motorists really care. You'll get an occasional honk, a rare bit of harassment, but really not much more than noticing me and passing me. Kids often get pretty big grins on their faces though. So I'm at least entertaining some kids, if only briefly.

I doubt it. If you ask your average non-cycling motorist how much a bike costs, few of them will think that an expensive bike costs more than maybe $300 or so. Many think that all bikes cost "around $100".

Just look at accident reports that people give on this forum. Motorist sometimes say they'll cover the cost of the bike out of pocket, to avoid filing an insurance claim - then are astounded to get a $2000 bill.

They believe a bike costs $100 and they still aren't going to their LBS to get that wrong belief corrected. So it's not the price that is at issue. Bikes, even $8,000 bikes, are quite cheap compared to the transport used by the average American. It's not equivalent, obviously, bit it fills in most of what most people do with their auto; and the returns past about $3,000 for a utility bike are really really diminishing.

What difference does it make what other people think of us when we are out riding. I don't care in the slightest. I ride to get from point A to point B or just for the sake of being outside. When people stop me, they always give positive words and much support. I hope that by being on a bike will encourage others to follow suit.
Another thing, I too, think the OP is one sided with this poll.

The attitude of motorists vary, the fact that they are in a moving vehicle gives some the feeling of superiority because they are moving away and feel they are protected by that fact, or to put it in another way, they are chicken ****, not wanting a confrontation because of their actions.
I have been cut off as if I didn't exist which I'm sure is common, I have had bottles thrown at me by pasengers while on my bicycle. However when I ride another HPV, things change.
The change is how some believe that my sexual preferance has altered. I have never had any comments while on my bicycle, but when I am on a trikke I get harassed by a few that, again, are in a moving vehicle, moving away. Maybe it's the serpentine motion that appears different, like not going "straight" like a bicycle that creates the illusion. Whatever it is, it's probably coming from homophobes.
I have confronted a few, but do not recommend this as it could lead to very bad consequences. Once, I asked the passenger to step out of his truck so we could discuss his opinion of me, he wouldn't acknowledge me and looked straight ahead waiting for the light to change.
Some people are not sure of their own self worth, so they like to try and prove them selves, albeit in a safe protected way.

The one you should have added was "Have to ride bike because of a DUI". My wife and I (who both commute by bike) have been told that's what people in our town think when they see someone ridding a bike.

They believe a bike costs $100 and they still aren't going to their LBS to get that wrong belief corrected. So it's not the price that is at issue. Bikes, even $8,000 bikes, are quite cheap compared to the transport used by the average American. It's not equivalent, obviously, bit it fills in most of what most people do with their auto; and the returns past about $3,000 for a utility bike are really really diminishing.
Price is not an issue? It is for those who can't afford to get a bike at a local bike shop -- I mean, those who don't have a car or can't drive a car due to any kind of visual disability... :(