Road Bike Racing - Cheats got to go!!

OK, I acknowledge right up front that I am taking a real HARD ASSED position on this, but I am fed up!!

I just read that David Miller got a two year ban and got stripped of his title. Yes this is a punishment, but is it enough? I have read a great deal of comments and articles about how bad EPO and other banned drugs are, but the sport still seems to find a way to let these cheats race and win and earn rather sizable incomes (in some cases). I don't for one minute buy the "Gee I was under a lot of pressure from my sponsors to get results..." argument that we all have heard way too many times.

Miller, Verenque et. al. You are cheats! There is no polite way to say it. You abandoned your morals (I don't know them personally, so I will assume they had them to begin with); you sullied the sport; you took money dishonestly and cheated clean riders of the opportunity to get winning results that may have furthered their careers. Worst of all, you conveyed to the younger generation (riders and other kids) the message that WINNING DISHONESTLY IS OK AS LONG AS YOU WIN!! We tell our kids, "Play fair, don't cheat, don't lie and don't take what is not yours" These are basic tenants of civilized society and you abandoned them!

I don't want David Miller talking to kids about the evils of EPO. I want him talking to people who are in a position to make use of the information on how he managed not to test posative so they can use the information to improve the testing and catch the other cheats and get them out of cycling too. It would be nide if we didn't have to test for drugs at all, but that isn't the world of sports today.

THE FIX as I see it is adopting a ZERO TOLLERANCE POLICY toward the use of banned drugs. This may take some redefining of what is banned as well. The way it would be simple and straightforward. USE DRUGS AND YOU ARE OUT OF ANY FORM OF COMPETTATIVE SPORT (Armature or Pro-fessional_ FOR LIFE! You forfeit all ill-gotten gains (salary, bonuses, winnings and endorsement money) you earned while cheating.

Bring down one or two of the high profile cheats and the abuse would begin to stop immediately.

I am not naive enough to think it would work this simply, but with some hard work we could clean up cycling and perhaps develop a blueprint that other sports could adopt and use.

Just call me Pollyanna

I think that if Richard is not cheating, he has been a good example to prove that you don't have to cheat to win(he is good)

I understand your frustration. Doping has progressed to the point where most people can't help but wonder if the winner of any race is "on something." I also agree that David Millar should tell the world how he was able to beat the tests so that new, more accurate testing methods can be developed.

However, I also believe that some people do deserve second chances, and if riders like Millar can prove to the UCI that he has learned his lesson and has the desire to prove to the world that he can win races while clean, then he should be allowed to race once his punishment is carried out. I was never a big fan of broad "zero tolerance" policies. They tend to treat different cases all the same and often fail to define specific guidelines as to what is tolerated and what is not.

You're right, a two year suspension and the nullifying of his world championship title is not enough. Personally, I believe we should publically execute those who test positive/admit to doping.

And even then, that may not be harsh enough. Perhaps if we killed their parents for the crime of concieving these awful cheaters, justice will be done.

The bans are all over the place. There doesn't seem to be a standard. The Festina affair resulted in mostly bans of less than 1 year if I remember right. Millar gets 2. I'm not saying he should have received a lesser ban, just saying that there really ought to be a set standard for dealing with this. Rumsas has just returned from a 1 year ban. Still, it could be worse ... look at Axelsson - he got 4 years.

Look at the Banner ads thrown up by Ad-Bot, hahhahahahh Im so used to ignoring them, but they caught my eye this time....HAHAHAAAA

For those of you who can't see them......


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I need to becmone a donating member.....

what? you don't want to "save" on EPO?

My insurance pays for it, all I have to do is cover the $20.00 a month co-pay!

you're getting ripped. I get mine off of a crack addict for much less in an undisclosed alley:lol:

Should we take away Jalabert's World Championships time trial win in 1997 and Alex Zulle's World Championship time trial win in 1996. Honchar won in 2000, but he failed a blood test in 1999. How about Bo Hamburgers 1998 Silver Medal in the road race?

Should Laurent Brochard not be allowed to wear the WC stripes on his Jersey?

Lets take away Argentin's World Championship too. And Luc Leblanc's in 1994
We can take away Gianni Bugnos 1991 and 1992 World titles.....

And Rudy Dhaenens 1990's WC win.

Should Richard Virenque lose his Polka Dot Jerseys from 1994, 95, 96, 97....

How about Gert-Jan Theunisse's in 1989

Merckx tested positive in 1969, so do we disregard the following?

Tour de France
KoM, Tour de France
Points Competition, Tour de France
5 stages, Tour de France
Paris - Luxembourg
Milan - San Remo
Tour of Flanders
Liège - Bastogne - Liège
Paris - Nice
4 stages, Giro d'Italia
Super Prestige Pernod Trophy

How about Delgado's Tour win?

Fignon's too?

How about Lance and the Postals wins in 2000, the year they got caught tossing Actovegin bags in the trash... It wasn't banned because the UCI didn't know about its use, till then....... So it wasn't "illegal", but I think injecting yourself with bovine (yeah, bovine, as in cow) blood products to ehance the oxygen uptake from your blood into your tissues falls under the category of "not fair" Don't you?

Not always that simple. Sometime by making overly severe penalties you only prevent the good riders from doing it, since the marginal, career-might-be-over-soon guys with nothing to lose would still be using.

You need more than deterents. You need solid screening or it will never go away.

OK, I acknowledge right up front that I am taking a real HARD ASSED position on this, but I am fed up!!

I just read that David Miller got a two year ban and got stripped of his title. Yes this is a punishment, but is it enough? I have read a great deal of comments and articles about how bad EPO and other banned drugs are, but the sport still seems to find a way to let these cheats race and win and earn rather sizable incomes (in some cases). I don't for one minute buy the "Gee I was under a lot of pressure from my sponsors to get results..." argument that we all have heard way too many times.

Miller, Verenque et. al. You are cheats! There is no polite way to say it. You abandoned your morals (I don't know them personally, so I will assume they had them to begin with); you sullied the sport; you took money dishonestly and cheated clean riders of the opportunity to get winning results that may have furthered their careers. Worst of all, you conveyed to the younger generation (riders and other kids) the message that WINNING DISHONESTLY IS OK AS LONG AS YOU WIN!! We tell our kids, "Play fair, don't cheat, don't lie and don't take what is not yours" These are basic tenants of civilized society and you abandoned them!

I don't want David Miller talking to kids about the evils of EPO. I want him talking to people who are in a position to make use of the information on how he managed not to test posative so they can use the information to improve the testing and catch the other cheats and get them out of cycling too. It would be nide if we didn't have to test for drugs at all, but that isn't the world of sports today.

THE FIX as I see it is adopting a ZERO TOLLERANCE POLICY toward the use of banned drugs. This may take some redefining of what is banned as well. The way it would be simple and straightforward. USE DRUGS AND YOU ARE OUT OF ANY FORM OF COMPETTATIVE SPORT (Armature or Pro-fessional_ FOR LIFE! You forfeit all ill-gotten gains (salary, bonuses, winnings and endorsement money) you earned while cheating.

Bring down one or two of the high profile cheats and the abuse would begin to stop immediately.

I am not naive enough to think it would work this simply, but with some hard work we could clean up cycling and perhaps develop a blueprint that other sports could adopt and use.

Just call me Pollyanna




G'day,

'haliluah' Pollyanna!!!!....i'm sick of all these bleeding hearts crapping on about 2nd cahnces for these cheats...why should they have a 2nd chance??....some people don't even get a 1st chance, let alone a 2nd!......So Ok all you 2nd chancers...millar has never tested positive to anything, (he's just plain stupid), so lets rub him out for 2 years....when he comes back, how do you prove that any success he has isn't with doping?....it's impossible to prove a negative, (as lance knows!)...how do you prove you are not doping, when we all know that only the stupid get caught in the first place. You get 1 chance baby...F*** up & you're out for life.....oh & by the way, i'm waiting & hoping that some of these guys are gunna be charged with 'fraud'...yep thats right, 'fraud'...why?....Ok how much money did millar, virenque etc etc make out of there careers...careers that are based on fraud...they defrauded everyone & it's time to pay the piper!...who felt sorry for Millar when he's chain came off in the TDF prologue the other year?....yeah, me too (except that Mcgee won. oi,oi,oi), we were defrauded...What about Mick rogers & the world T/T championship?...how much money & prestige did he miss out on cos of this scumbags cheating....giving him the title now is a little hollow, he should of been able to bask in the glory right from the start...........

What happens now if (god forbid I hope it never happens!), if 10 years down the track, lance's blood taken during the 2004 tour is tested with new techniques & he tests positive to HGH? (which is illegal but currently there is no reliable test)....hmmm...will you be so forgiving then?.....Get rid of all drug cheats from our sport, PERMANTENTLY!...you test positive you get LIFE!,

cheers,

Hitchy

Sort of funny in a strange way that an article today in MSNBC asked celebrities what music they are listening to and Sheryl Crow answered with Neil Young's The Needle and the Damage Done. Seriously. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5463076/

Pro cyclists dope. Way it is. I've resigned myself to this fact.

Rather than ***** about cyclists doping, I want to see screening improve dramatically. So cyclists have to really sweat it if they do decide to dope. If I had to guess, I'd say doping methods now are so far ahead of the methods used to detect them, that its like corn flakes in the morning for a pro cyclist.

I don't know how, but if detection improves, then I suspect we'd see some wide open races.

lifetime ban + full restitution of all income earned back to their sponsors/races they won/etc should be enough to do it...basically it will make all their work worth nothing if they gat caught doping...thenb add in the penaties and they will have lost money over it.

You gotta hit them in the wallet...if they know they could lose thier house, car, etc. over this...then they won't do it.

Yes, I will agree with the original view. The current "system" of probations, bans, whatever is too non-committal. It sends a poor message to the general public, especially when a prior cheater suddenly is successful again. The stigma will never go away in this manner.

I gave up riding first in the '80's, when doping was really getting known. I still kept up with cycling periodically, due to sentimentality and the occaisional American success, but when '98 happened, I turned my back. I saw how bad and out of control things had gotten. Then '99 came around and suddenly I'm back interested (dang Armstrong hero-guy). I even eventually start riding again.

Now that I am permanently dismounted due to injury, I would love to keep up, but only if the above conditions are applied. If not....forget it.

I HATE reading the snickering comments from other riders suggesting that doping is a fact we should accept. NO! IT'S NOT! Just because you do does NOT mean it's right, and we should give up.

Come on UCI, and the anti-doping agencies! Do the right thing.

I think most of you are just jealous because you can't afford your own EPO.

I think most of you are just jealous because you can't afford your own EPO.

Troll, or moron...you choose!

You can do it for less than $200.00 a month

Troll, or moron...you choose!

How about comedian?

It was a joke.

Some of you people take sports way too seriously. Most riders are doping, it's a fact of life you'll have to learn to live with.

g'day,

Ok devil, point taken.....but doping is a serious subject. As i've said before, riders can dope all they want as far as I'm concerned...just don't call it sport anymore.When its about who has the best 'chemist', we might as well call it 'Roller Derby' or 'professional wrestling'......perhaps the riders could have acting lessons to perfect the look of anguish on their faces as the chemist in the white coat & coke bottle glasses drops them up Alp D'huez,

cheers,

Hitchy

I believe we've had this conversation already. It'd still be a sport, and having the best chemist doesn't make you the best rider. Far from it.

Ask Filippo Simeoni.

I believe we've had this conversation already. It'd still be a sport, and having the best chemist doesn't make you the best rider. Far from it.

Ask Filippo Simeoni.


G'day,

I agree with that too...at the moment......but who knows what will come out of the closet if they took away any restrictions.....I can still see that 'poindexter' looking dude from the 'simpsons' y'know the inventor dude, what his name?....dropping lance up alpe d'huez

cheers,

Hitchy

How about comedian?

It was a joke.

Some of you people take sports way too seriously. Most riders are doping, it's a fact of life you'll have to learn to live with.

This is the attitude I was referring to earlier. Throwing your hands up and saying " oh, well" is a cop-out. Do you dope? If you do, then that would explain it.

Doping is cheating. I don't care about who cheated in the past, that doesn't make it right. Racers will be dopers as long as we let them, and that's how the world will see the sport. If that's OK with you, then I'm sorry.

No, I don't. But as a professional athlete I can understand why the guys who do it, do it.

How about you? Ever competed professionally?

Im seriously considering it, more out of curiosity than anything else....

If I do, I'll post my results up here for all to follow!

I can't tell if you're joking or not. I don't have any experience with blood boosters, they're not all that important in my sport. So all I can tell you is to do your research wisely and monitor your body's reactions, use sterile needles, etc..

What sport Devil?

MMA - "ultimate fighting".

It's more like $600 - $800 a month if you are on HGH. I'd like to know where you could get it for $150

I'd say it's quite a bit more than $800/month.

The Growthe Hormone is expensive, but the EPO is cheaper, you can buy it in Canda or Mexico cheaper than you can here.

4000 IU will cost about $56.00 at Walgreens/CVS in the US

20 IU per kilo of bodyweight 3 times a week for 2 weeks, then once a week.

I really need to clairify that I am not a doper, nor do I condone it, but I must admit, Im fascinated by it.



EPO is abused in almost all sports, even hockey. Its like instant aerobic conditioning, and being better conditioned would be an advantage in all sports. If it's not abused in MMA or UCF now, my guess is its only a matter of time. Especially since they don't test for it.

I wasn't aware you could buy EPO at CVS. You sure about that? Or do you mean to say you need a prescription of some sort?

You're right about that! $800 a month is cheap for HGH. Your are looking at 2 injections a day at $15 per shot. That's expensive!!!!

The reason I know this is because I know a few at the gym I go to that are on it. It made a huge difference in them! They are bodybuilders, not endurance athletes.

Sorry to interrupt the pharmacology "lesson" .

Devil: no, I have never competed professionally. First era, I wasn't dedicated enough. This time around, I was much stronger, and had thoughts about racing on an amateur level until my recent bust-up ended that fantasy. I am what you would call an enthusiast... with insight. (?)

Those of you who smugly say "accept it", what is your objection to a policy of banishment for a single offense? Why do you think doping is acceptable? Enlighten us, please.

Smoothie - you were right about the CVS thing. I was able to find this: http://www.cvs.com/CVSApp/cvs/gateway/rxmonograph?ndcvalue=55513026701&pageFrom=rxsublisting&drugsymbol=E&familyname=EPOGEN&sproductname=EPOGEN+3000U%2FML+VIAL

pletcgm - yes, it's quite expensive. And for my sport, it isn't all that effective. Depends on the person, actually. I know a guy who said it helped him a lot, but I know a lot more guys who didn't notice any changes at all.

You're right about that! $800 a month is cheap for HGH. Your are looking at 2 injections a day at $15 per shot. That's expensive!!!!

The reason I know this is because I know a few at the gym I go to that are on it. It made a huge difference in them! They are bodybuilders, not endurance athletes.


Cyclists and other endurance athletes dont take Hgh for the same reasons, or dosage levels as body builders. It is used to aid recovery, and it heals and re-pairs like nothing else. Imagine going on your toughest training ride ever, then getting up in the morning, and feeling fresh enough to do it again, and again the next day.

It is also used as an anti-aging drug by the wealthy. It increases muscle tone, skin tone, stops hair loss, and helps you see better.

1.5 IU a day is a lot less than what the bodybuilder types use.

http://www.walgreens.com/library/finddrug/druginfo.jhtml?particularDrug=Epogen



Hgh

http://www.walgreens.com/library/finddrug/druginfo.jhtml?particularDrug=Genotropin

low tech, low cost alternative would be anavar (oxandrolone) Its an anabolic steroid, increases strength with little increase in mass, is non-estrogenic (no shrunken nuts, or man boobs) and raises hematocrit. It's prescribed to HIV patients to increase lean body mass, and rise hematocrit, It used to only be made in Italy, but a lab called SPA, but now is manufactured in the US again, under the name Oxandrin.

You can get anavar from any of the body builder type guys that juice, they are tablets, so you don't have to inject. Dont' listen to their advice regarding dosages, as you will swell up like a gorilla and do a real number on your liver. 5-10mg a day is all you need.

I totally forgot about EQ (Boldenone undecyclenate). It's a steroid that's favored by bodybuilders and such, but I know quite a few people who use it/have used it in the past. It's an anabolic steroid, kind of androgenic and it's typically stacked with other steroids. But in addition to increasing muscle mass (slower than test, however) it also stimulates the kidneys to release a lot of EPO.

Kinda sounds like a wonder drug, but it isn't. You gotta stack it with other steroids for it to be truly effective. It works, but it's slow. If I were going to juice I don't think I'd do it though.

In most sports, the reasons for taking steroids lie in its ability to help you recover much faster, as Smoothie said. Because that's where races/fights are won - in training.

holicow - I don't have a problem with people using performance enhancing drugs because it's just part of the competition. Everyone uses PEDs. They don't have to be steroids. Whey protein, glutamine, glucosamine, creatine, etc.. They're all performance enhancing.

Do you think we should ban athletes from consuming whey protein and vitamins too?

gatorade is performance ehancing

holicow - I don't have a problem with people using performance enhancing drugs because it's just part of the competition. Everyone uses PEDs. They don't have to be steroids. Whey protein, glutamine, glucosamine, creatine, etc.. They're all performance enhancing.

Do you think we should ban athletes from consuming whey protein and vitamins too?

Well, you guys have succeeded in trashing the thread. Nice job. Typical.

Devil: I get that question all the time. What about vitamins, minerals, blah, blah.

Here's the basic answer. I consider the following "performance enhancers" as cheats: hormones, and stimulants. Period.

Why? Stimulants: that's obvious. The question lies in what is considered a stimulant. As long as we all agree, no big deal

Hormones: This is the biggie! Examples include whatever brand anabolic steroid, growth hormone, insulin, IGF, EPO, and anything which has the same mechanisms of action.

Hormone levels are genetically set, and are part of what determines your identity. The only way to manipulate the set-point is by "supplementation".

Vitamins, electrolytes, protein, whatever. I don't care about that. They are utilized by the body if needed, or they are excreted. They don't change who you are.

"They don't change who you are"? What do you mean by that? One's attitude or mental outlook?

Whey protein increases muscle mass, sometimes in a big way. Little dudes (such as a typical cyclist) can use whey protein in addition to creatine and a change in diet to gain a lot of mass that they're not "supposed to" have because of their extremely fast metabolism. Are they cheating too? Their genetics gave them a fast metabolism and an ectomorphic build. Now they're changing that with supplementation. What a crime.

I think for someone who has never competed professionally, or is unable compete professionally, to get up on a high horse and condemn everyone who uses steroids or performance enhancing drugs reeks of jealousy.

Some of you guys seem to think that these are wonder drugs, and just inject a little testosterone there and some insulin here and the muscle/results magically appear out of nowhere. That isn't the case at all.

"They don't change who you are"? What do you mean by that? One's attitude or mental outlook?
Your genes. The most basic form of identity.



Whey protein increases muscle mass, sometimes in a big way. Little dudes (such as a typical cyclist) can use whey protein in addition to creatine and a change in diet to gain a lot of mass that they're not "supposed to" have because of their extremely fast metabolism. Are they cheating too? Their genetics gave them a fast metabolism and an ectomorphic build. Now they're changing that with supplementation. What a crime.

Did you read my post? I said I didn't care about protein, dietary supplements. They do less than you think. The metabolism is regulated by hormones, not supplements.



I think for someone who has never competed professionally, or is unable compete professionally, to get up on a high horse and condemn everyone who uses steroids or performance enhancing drugs reeks of jealousy.

Well at least somebody will stand up, because if the sport is represented by the likes of you, it is doomed.



Some of you guys seem to think that these are wonder drugs, and just inject a little testosterone there and some insulin here and the muscle/results magically appear out of nowhere. That isn't the case at all.

I rest MY case.

I'm not going to stand for being insulted like that. "... the likes of you"? Go to hell, man. Get off of your high horse. I train my ass off six to seven hours a day. I don't use steroids. I keep an extremely strict diet and I work my ass off in the gym and on the mat, day in and day out. You have no idea what it's like to be a pro athlete in ANY sport. To train so hard that you vomit from the exertion, and then you get right back in there and do it again. To come home with bruises, hematomas, a busted jaw, cuts, and black eyes, so tired and strained that you need help taking your socks off when you get home. Then you get up the next morning and do it again. So get off of your "moral" pedestal. You wouldn't last one week in my shoes.

You would kill to have someone "the likes of me" to represent your sport.

*edited to remove profanity that I probably shouldn't have used

To me the bigger question is, How much of your "after sports life" are you willing to risk for your sport. Are you willing to up your risk of brain cancer 10 fold to win a race? Are you willing to never see your kids grow up or even have kids? I feel very sorry for any athlete weather they be a cyclist or a football player that risks the better part of their lives for short lived glory. I honestly believe (allthough I have zero evidence) that Lance's cancer was caused by steroid use. His body and his temper had that "look". I also believe (again no proof) that he would never put anything in his body again that could make sick. From what we can see from the outside (and that's all we can see) he a dedicated father who loves his children. As a father of two lovely girls I would never risk enhancing my performance by injecting something into my body that could potentially make sick later. Kids have that kind of effect on you.

I've competed in sports where people cheat. I've never felt that they were winners when they beat me. I could never feel good about a win if I new that I was cheating.

I also feel that guys like Veranque (sp) should be stripped of their past wins if it was proved that they were doping at the time. At the very least they should have an astrik by their names letting all who see there palmares know they were doping, and yes if it is ever proven that LA is doping then he should be striped of his TdF victories.

The other issue is the mesage that is sent out to the kids who are coming up. If they are under the impression that the only way they will be able to compete is to dope then they will do it. The cycle will never be broken if all sports (especially baseball) don't stop with this wishy washy attitude toward doping. What might seem draconian now will only help all sports in the future.

His body and his temper had that "look"..

Body? Temper? You don't get roid rage from EPO.

"Roid rage" is a myth anyways. Certain steroids can increase aggressiveness, but it won't make you a psychopath.

Body? Temper? You don't get roid rage from EPO.

"Roid rage" is a myth anyways. Certain steroids can increase aggressiveness, but it won't make you a psychopath.

I never said I though it was EPO. I also never said he was psychopath. It was pretty obvious that he had a hell of a temper and he had much much more muscle mass. Roid rage isn't a myth it's just been exaggerated. My buddy used own a gym and allthough roid rage won't turn you into a raving killer it does "enhance" one's temper.

Nah, I didn't say you said he was a psychopath. The little part I mentioned about roid rage was just a seperate anecdote. :)

Nah, I didn't say you said he was a psychopath. The little part I mentioned about roid rage was just a seperate anecdote. :)

No worries.