Folding Bikes - So wonder what ever happened to the intriguing Dahon Curl?

The applicable patent was granted over two years ago and various maturing prototypes made the bike show circuit up through Taipei in the spring of ’09, where it was entered into the “New Products competition”. Then…the bike completely disappeared from both industry and enthusiasts’ radar screens. It was a notable no show at Eurobike and Interbike a couple months ago.

The latest example shown (http://i64.servimg.com/u/f64/09/04/23/55/curl_d10.jpg) seems to have a Shimano 8-speed hub and a chainwheel sized to give reasonable gearing with the ISO355 wheels. It appears that Dahon has also developed and fabricated unique folding pedals, an interesting folding parallelogram saddle mount and unique rear suspension. The frame fold latch doesn’t look like their standard one, either.

It seems like a lot of effort and expense and a very polished looking prototype just to be an exercise for their design staff!

Posters have speculated on the ‘net that there is some technical problem with the design that Dahon has been unable to solve, although just what this might be is unknown. Others have suggested Dahon for whatever reason has decided not to enter into Brompton’s market niche with an evolved design. Perhaps, but given that Dahon is 40X the size of Brompton, and that there are 6+ Billion folks in the world dealing variously with congestion, finite resources, environmental impact and the health aspects of sedentary living, I’m not ready to accept that as the definitive answer. There was a suggestion that this design was out-of-range for Dahon’s model line-up, but I don’t see the Curl as being significantly more expensive to manufacture and market than their Ciao and Jetstream bikes.

My best guess is that Dahon also does not have unlimited resources and their market research indicated that at this time they should offer the los XL (http://www.dahon.com/news/releases/09112009.htm) as their best return on investment. Their other new models also seem to be in the vein of "easy to share an apartment with" rather than multi-modal darlings. Well, maybe this is the reason. I dunno.

So anyway, if anyone has heard anything new or has a fresh spy shot or an internal email cancelling the whole project, do share.

tcs

I'm thinking that, based on the amount of web deals on 08 and 09 Dahons, plus the radius handlepost recall debacle, and the general worldwide economic recession, Dahon is stuck with a lot of unsold inventory and may have a more or less serious cash flow problem, which would put the crimp on new product development, at least temporarily.

There is an unquestionable bias away from small wheels in the general public. Small wheels are a niche at best. So the Curl is destined to be a niche product whereas the new 'los' fits in better with the general perception that small wheels are only found on toys. Dahon's own words on the los are 'full-sized bicycle,' inadvertently shooting themselves in the foot by propagating the erroneous notion that bikes with small wheels are not full sized.

The Curl's chainwheel size was shown much smaller in later pics - evidently there is some sort of hub gear in the front one. That would push cost upwards as well and with the niche problem, it comes as no surprise that Dahon is quiet on this concept especially in this economic climate.

Why are the Dahon prices for their emerging products listed in Euros on that link? Not available in North America? Or does "Parts unknown" mean Europe?

Hello, I have no particular comment at the moment. I just wanted to subscribe to this thread, and the drop down menu under "Thread Tools" keeps appearing behind the first post.

Hello, I have no particular comment at the moment. I just wanted to subscribe to this thread, and the drop down menu under "Thread Tools" keeps appearing behind the first post.

This sounds like a bad browser. Seems to work fine on Camino/Firefox and on Safari and Chrome. So do tell: what are you using?

The applicable patent was granted over two years ago and various maturing prototypes made the bike show circuit up through Taipei in the spring of ’09, where it was entered into the “New Products competition”. Then…the bike completely disappeared from both industry and enthusiasts’ radar screens. It was a notable no show at Eurobike and Interbike a couple months ago.

The latest example shown (http://i64.servimg.com/u/f64/09/04/23/55/curl_d10.jpg) seems to have a Shimano 8-speed hub and a chainwheel sized to give reasonable gearing with the ISO355 wheels. It appears that Dahon has also developed and fabricated unique folding pedals, an interesting folding parallelogram saddle mount and unique rear suspension. The frame fold latch doesn’t look like their standard one, either.

It seems like a lot of effort and expense and a very polished looking prototype just to be an exercise for their design staff!

Posters have speculated on the ‘net that there is some technical problem with the design that Dahon has been unable to solve, although just what this might be is unknown. Others have suggested Dahon for whatever reason has decided not to enter into Brompton’s market niche with an evolved design. Perhaps, but given that Dahon is 40X the size of Brompton, and that there are 6+ Billion folks in the world dealing variously with congestion, finite resources, environmental impact and the health aspects of sedentary living, I’m not ready to accept that as the definitive answer. There was a suggestion that this design was out-of-range for Dahon’s model line-up, but I don’t see the Curl as being significantly more expensive to manufacture and market than their Ciao and Jetstream bikes.

My best guess is that Dahon also does not have unlimited resources and their market research indicated that at this time they should offer the los XL (http://www.dahon.com/news/releases/09112009.htm) as their best return on investment. Their other new models also seem to be in the vein of "easy to share an apartment with" rather than multi-modal darlings. Well, maybe this is the reason. I dunno.

So anyway, if anyone has heard anything new or has a fresh spy shot or an internal email cancelling the whole project, do share.

tcs

This and similar articles might shed some light on Dahon's reluctance on shifting too much from tried and true models and beliefs:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/01/business/smallbusiness/01sbiz.html?_r=2

Even though they and other bike makes have made a ton of money and seen their profits rise, the recession or whatever it is dragging far too long. A common thing to remember is: people who lost their jobs and their homes-or feel threatened to-are not about to go for the newest, latest and greatest models-or anything else for that matter. Until confidence is restored, or at least the illusion of it, people will hang on to whatever money they have, not take chances on any niche bikes like folding ones, or even go out for dinner until they feel secure again.

Dahon being the largest folding bike maker in the world, can wait it out I imagine. Then you will see the Curl and other newer models appear which appeal to the masses of people who want the latest in technological developments (and cheap in price compared to other makes) will line up for these models again.

Key pointers from the above article to keep in mind:

“This is not like the rest of the recessions we’ve been through,” said Jay Graves, who owns six Bike Gallery stores in Portland, Ore., the first of which his father started in 1974. Business skyrocketed last summer along with gasoline prices, Mr. Graves said, especially sales of hybrid bikes that can be used for recreation and transportation. So Mr. Graves ordered plenty of cold weather gear for what he believed would be legions of new bike commuters. “We wished we hadn’t gone in quite as heavy,” Mr. Graves said. “Business is not growing at the rate it was earlier in the year.”


Industry analysts like Jay Townley, a partner with the Gluskin Townley Group, bicycle industry consultants in Wisconsin, believe that "what owners perceived to be a commuter trend was probably not. Declining gas prices are one reason. He also cited major price increases in bicycles and accessories resulting from the rising cost of materials and shipping — 98 percent of bicycles are manufactured overseas — which cut into profits. He said data showed that wholesale sales of new bicycles to shops for the first nine months of the year were down more than 4 percent. “More people riding bikes has not translated into any improvement in bike business,” he said."

The analysts argued that bicycle commuters were generally a fixed (i.e. little profit & profit growth potential overall) group. These riders account for less than 1 percent of commuters in the United States; in isolated pockets like Portland, they might account for about 6 percent

Surveys by Bikes Belong, a group in Boulder, Colo., that advocates more bicycle riding, and Gluskin Townley echoed observations of bicycle store owners and managers that the most pervasive, and possibly the biggest, contributor to the summer bicycle business boom was in repairs. People were dragging long-forgotten bikes out of basements and garages and fixing them up for recreation because they were staying home instead of traveling.
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Simply put: Dahon and others are not likely to keep on experiencing large sales of new bikes-at least in North America-due to the fix it up rather than buy new if possible mindset; ride it around until things get better, then go back to business as usual-drive rather than ride.

I am using Internet Explorer 8.

If it were me, I wouldn't come out with some new expensive model in this economy. I'd wait until things pick up again because you only get the 'wow, it's new' once. All the articles and reviewers will be wasted if it comes out in an era where people aren't going to buy.

I am using Internet Explorer 8.

I'm sorry to hear that. :-)

Try Firefox.

Yes I've been eyeing both the Brompton and Tikit but am semi-waiting for the dahon curl.

Simply put: Dahon and others are not likely to keep on experiencing large sales of new bikes-at least in North America...

Despite their world headquarters being here, the North American market represents only a small portion of Dahon sales.

tcs

I'm thinking that, based on the amount of web deals on 08 and 09 Dahons, plus the radius handlepost recall debacle, and the general worldwide economic recession, Dahon is stuck with a lot of unsold inventory and may have a more or less serious cash flow problem, which would put the crimp on new product development, at least temporarily.

with the cancellation of the curl, looks like the myth, the aura surrounding the brompton, is growing stronger...
although in fact, brompton design is simple, and old.. (how old is the design??)

with the cancellation of the curl, looks like the myth, the aura surrounding the brompton, is growing stronger...
Although in fact, brompton design is simple, and old.. (how old is the design??)

1975

I remember four years ago, Dahon offered two models, the Piccolo and Presto both under $500.00 dollars. These bikes in my opinion, were good quality especially the Presto since I own one. They did not need to go upscale with the 16' model but did so regardless with the Presto Lite (about $700.00) which did not sell well at all.

Still not satisfied, Dahon released the Curve SL, priced at about $900 after taxes. A local bike shop close to where I work had two on display the entire summer and the second bike finally sold last month! It took nearly 6 months to move two Curve SLs! Those were beautiful bikes.

It seems like the only people who buy 16' inch wheel folders (even during a recession) costing over 1K are Bike Friday, Brompton and Birdy owners. You can understand why since Brompton's been around for ages with a proven product and Bike Friday have their loyal fan base from their 20' inch models. People who buy Dahon 16' inch folders are not willing to spend that kind of money which explains why the regular three speed Curve was a hit.

I suspect Dahon could not keep the price of the Curl under $1,100.00 USD so they are putting the project under wraps until the economy recovers.

with the cancellation of the curl...

What's this? You have some information indicating the Curl has been abandonded as a product? AFAIK Dahon 1) never announced any timetable for this model and 2) has not announced they have "cancelled" any ongoing work or future plans. If you know more, please share with sources.

Thanks,
tcs

dahon has neither confirm or deny...so don't hold ur breath when the curl will ever come out. for ppl that has their eyes on a brompton or a tikit...go ahead and get them instead of waiting for the curl.

I suspect Dahon could not keep the price of the Curl under $1,100.00 USD so they are putting the project under wraps until the economy recovers.

How is this possible, when the labor intensive process for their manufacturing is so inexpensive? Maybe including ammortization of all R&D and a small ROI scope, but strictly speaking of the cost to make one once tooled up, I doubt there are significant $$ differences between the models except those where the components are significant differentiating factors. This is the joy of manufacturing in the east.

I don't think that the folding bike market is that big. Considering what Jur wrote -- the need for an internal hub at the crank ala Schlumpf Drive -- and Dahon.Steve, there just may not be enough of a payoff to enter another product line. Particularly when, in my opinion, the benefit of going from something like the Curve to the Brompton is pretty "small".

Considering what Jur wrote -- the need for an internal hub at the crank ala Schlumpf Drive...

In view of the picture I linked in post 1 that shows a prototype Curl with a quite normal appearing ungeared crank and a reasonably standard gear range, could you guys explain why you think a geared crank is necessary on this design?

Thanks,
tcs

^ Just that later appearances of the Curl showed a very tiny chainring, eg photos of the Curl at the latest Taiwan show had the small chainring. I was speculating that the bigger ring had insurmountable problems hence the walk-away from it. But it's all speculation based on photos at various appearances.

We discussed the chainring issue here
http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?520082-Dahon-Curl-is-nice-looking/page2&highlight=curl

Yes I've been eyeing both the Brompton and Tikit but am semi-waiting for the dahon curl.

I am new to the forum and in the same boat of wanting a foldy. The Curl kind of holding my back to make any purchase, but it doesn't seem to be out soon....

It's baaaaaaacccckkkkkkkk (http://www.taipeicycle.com.tw/en_US/product/info.html?id=C3C2118B6EFF057FC0B06BB17E68E9A4).

Same old promo picture from 2 years ago, though.

tcs

I'm also waiting for Dahon Curl while eyeing Brompton.

I suspect that even though Dahon might secure patents for the Curl in the US, they might not have that yet in China where they are manufacturing, along with Taiwan. They may have some protections in Taiwan (they won some disputed cases), but China is a different story.

Why spent tons of money on development and open manufacturing plant in a place where it's easy to be imitated and hard to defend?

Dahon had in the past, complained about the stolen intellectual properties and patents, and it's one of the reason they are having trouble in China despite cheaper labor cost.

Brompton's major patent has expired, and there are imitators out there, but bromptom is still doing well business wise. Unlike Dahon, Brompton is manufactured in London. I'm sure they will have a much easier time guarding the manufacturing processes.

Brompton's major patent has expired, and there are imitators out there.

What imitators? Don't think any exist any more. Are you aware of some?

I really don’t understand it. Why sit around waiting for something that might never arrive.:twitchy:

Bike Friday and Brompton are prestige brands that are well tested and proven and have enthusiastic owners / clubs. You can have a Bike Friday or Brompton custom made to your requirements.:thumb:

While Dahon is mainly a budget bike manufacturer with very limited, if any custom options.:rolleyes:

Oh and after owning 2 Dahons ....... I bought a Brompton and never looked back :D

After owning a Giant Halfway, a Giant Halfway RS, 2 Downtubes, 2 Dahons and a Super-Merc, I bought a Brompton and never looked back either.

Brompton's major patent has expired, and there are imitators out there, but bromptom is still doing well business wise. Unlike Dahon, Brompton is manufactured in London. I'm sure they will have a much easier time guarding the manufacturing processes.

There are videos of their manufacturing process. I don't think it is a secret. Brompton defended their patent by claiming a copyright infringement.

Anyway, I don't think that the niche that Brompton serves is large enough to warrant another competitor to tap into the market.

What imitators? Don't think any exist any more. Are you aware of some?

We know that Flamingo is out there somewhere. Just not in the Western Hemisphere.

What imitators? Don't think any exist any more. Are you aware of some?

Try this

http://www.flamingobike.com/products/products_show.php?pid=55&cid=3#pro

They are not exactly cheap, but significantly cheaper than Brompton, but of course you pay more for build quality for a Brompton.

Brompton defended their patent by claiming a copyright infringement.

An impossibility.

tcs

Anyway, I don't think that the niche that Brompton serves is large enough to warrant another competitor to tap into the market.

Brompton is not a niche market, it's a premium market. I'm sure their sale will be in the mainstream range for a folding bike if their price is also a bit closer to mainstream.

But why cut price when comparable folders are very limited. There are some notable alternative likes Pacific's Birdy, Strida, Bike Friday's Tikit, Dahon Curve, and others, but nothing come close to the compact design, versatility and practical usefulness of Brompton, not even the imitators.

If Dahon can come up with a reasonable priced Curl (cross my fingers), then I'll be sure to jump on it. A little competition will be a warm welcome.

What imitators? Don't think any exist any more. Are you aware of some?


Also try search for ORi and Mezzo ;)

But why cut price when comparable folders are very limited. There are some notable alternative likes Pacific's Birdy, Strida, Bike Friday's Tikit, Dahon Curve, and others, but nothing come close to the compact design, versatility and practical usefulness of Brompton, not even the imitators.


Um. If you say so.

An impossibility.

tcs

Nevermind my wording -- clearly they were not in court claiming that their patent should be upheld because their copyright was still in place -- but long story short, they claimed that a Brompton has a specific "look" independent of the patent effectively blocking Neobike from entering the European market. From memory, the convincing part of their case was that they built a prototype that used the patent without infringing on the Brompton copyright. As you might guess, it was never released to the public.

I never asked Anita, but I suspect that this played a role in her deciding to sell her stock of Mercs and leaving the business.

Presumably this is the reason that Flamingo changed the look of the bike; although I have yet to see anyone carry the brand in the US/Europe.

Brompton is not a niche market, it's a premium market. I'm sure their sale will be in the mainstream range for a folding bike if their price is also a bit closer to mainstream.

But why cut price when comparable folders are very limited. There are some notable alternative likes Pacific's Birdy, Strida, Bike Friday's Tikit, Dahon Curve, and others, but nothing come close to the compact design, versatility and practical usefulness of Brompton, not even the imitators.

If Dahon can come up with a reasonable priced Curl (cross my fingers), then I'll be sure to jump on it. A little competition will be a warm welcome.

Well ... at least in the US and Europe, I think all folding bikes are in a niche market. And Dahon wildly dominates that teeny market.

Nevermind my wording -- clearly they were not in court claiming that their patent should be upheld because their copyright was still in place -- but long story short, they claimed that a Brompton has a specific "look" independent of the patent effectively blocking Neobike from entering the European market.

That sounds like a design patent (rather than a process patent or a copyright). For example, you can't make a phone that looks just like the iPhone because Apple has a design patent on it. Any chance that might be it? Or maybe this is a British thing...

Brompton is not a niche market, it's a premium market.

A market Dahon knows well. The Dahon Mu EX P20, Flo and Tournado all seem to be around $2500USD in N.A. - that's more than a S6L-X.

Best,
tcs

That sounds like a design patent (rather than a process patent or a copyright). For example, you can't make a phone that looks just like the iPhone because Apple has a design patent on it. Any chance that might be it? Or maybe this is a British thing...

I never heard of a design patent. But the language used in various publications was "patent expired" and "copyright". And there may be a relevant difference in US and European laws that adds to the confusion.

Let's see what Wikipedia has on this ... aha! Check the following for copyright infringment.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brompton_Bicycle

Weird. So it looks like it was a Dutch copyright law thing.

In the US you cannot copyright a design. You can only copyright a specific piece of *art*: music, speech, writing, dramatic art, visual art, etc. For example, font designs are not copyrightable and may be freely cloned. Designs are considered to be concepts and ideas, and as such are largely covered by trademark law and by a special kind of patent called a design patent. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Design_patent) Same goes for much of Asia.

What this means is that the Neobike thing is probably not enforceable outside of Europe (or maybe just the Netherlands!).

What this means is that the Neobike thing is probably not enforceable outside of Europe (or maybe just the Netherlands!).

The bottom line is this this. The Brits protected Brompton from Asian importers to save the remaining bicycle industry they have left including the jobs. They seen first hand what happend to Sturmey Archer and do not want that to happen again. There's nothing wrong with this at all and it's necessary to protect manufacturing industries from leaving your country. We did not do this and lost 30% of our manufacturing base in the last 10 years.

If Brompton were made in America, the company would have gone the same way Schwinn did years ago at worse. At best, the Brompton would have "Made in China" on the bottom bracket and you'll still be paying $1,100.00 UDS for the bike.

If Brompton were made in America, the company would have gone the same way Schwinn did years ago at worse.


Schwinn's not a good example, given their grotesquely bad business decisions. (http://www.re-cycle.com/History/Schwinn.aspx)

So let's take a US folding bike company, shall we? Bike Friday seems to be doing okay.


There's nothing wrong with this at all and it's necessary to protect manufacturing industries from leaving your country.

There's tons wrong ethically with abuse of intellectual property laws. Go ask someone who's trying to get a breast cancer gene exam right now. If the Brits wanted to keep Asian importers from poaching their manufacturing base, there's a better approach: innovate.

After owning a Giant Halfway, a Giant Halfway RS, 2 Downtubes, 2 Dahons and a Super-Merc, I bought a Brompton and never looked back either.
After 8 years on a Brompton I'm waiting for my Airnimal Joey

After 8 years on a Brompton I'm waiting for my Airnimal Joey

. . . and here it is http://www.flickr.com/photos/plooifiets/4367128639/

I think all folding bikes are in a niche market.

+1

There's tons wrong ethically with abuse of intellectual property laws. Go ask someone who's trying to get a breast cancer gene exam right now. If the Brits wanted to keep Asian importers from poaching their manufacturing base, there's a better approach: innovate.

Innovate?

What innovation can a small bicycle company like Brompton do that can't be duplicated for a fraction of the price by a low cost bicycle importer from China? We told our manfacturers to innovate and they either went bankrupt or closed their office while opening new ones in Mexico, China and South America.

Funny how the China protects their manufactuing base with import tariffs, VAT and consumption taxes yet we can't do the same and must sacrifice our jobs because we don't innovate enough? I guess that's why they have two trillion stockpile in foreign currency while we have to borrow trillions to jump start our bankrupt economy.

The Brits are very proud of their Brompton factory and protected the company by physically crushing the Brompton clones in one full sweep. I thought they should have given the bikes away after confiscation but the government did not feel that way.

We told our manfacturers to innovate and they either went bankrupt or closed their office while opening new ones in Mexico, China and South America.

Actually, the USA has 6% of the world's population but builds 21% of the world's manufactured goods.

But back to the thread: I'm suspecting that Dahon has merely delayed the upper-end Curl model due to the worldwide economic downturn. A great many of their 2010 models are decontented and down-spec'd just a bit to lower the price points.

I'll be interested to see if an independent cyclo-jounalist can snag a ride/fold on a Curl at the Taipei Cycle Show.

tcs

Actually, the USA has 6% of the world's population but builds 21% of the world's manufactured goods.

Interesting. Do you know how what percentage of the world's manufactured goods the US consumes?

Innovate?

What innovation can a small bicycle company like Brompton do that can't be duplicated for a fraction of the price by a low cost bicycle importer from China? We told our manfacturers to innovate and they either went bankrupt or closed their office while opening new ones in Mexico, China and South America.

Anecdotally -- I don't know of any sophisticated analysis nor a literature review -- I am surprised by the difference in worker quality across countries. Worker quality in this case roughly translates to education. Moreover, there are apparently relevant infrastructure differences too. For example, I recall reading a blip on the problems that GM ran into when they moved a lot of facilities to Mexico. Now cars are more complicated than bikes, so that example might be inappropriate for a company like Brompton. Nevertheless, from what I gather, it is a lot more complicated than a simple comparison of wages.

To some extent, Brompton has innovated with customized bikes and such. Moreover, one might think that there is innovation in the production process that increases quality and/or lowers costs. As is, there is probably a good reason why Flamingos are not being sold in the US. So Brompton is presumably doing something right.

I'll tell you why Flamingos aren't being sold in the US.

Weight Limit... last I checked the weight limit was about 80kg. Sorry, but that would severely limit the market in the US. I'm willing to bet that's part of the reason why no US distributors have touched them.

--sam