Living Car Free - Alternatives to home ownership?

I've been doing some thinking. Here, I've got this plan to move to a more urban environment (Portland, OR or Seattle, WA) and finally ditch my car and get to live the bike-centered lifestyle I've been wanting to live. Thing is, I've been getting so discouraged by the price of houses in both of those cities. And the thought of selling our place and then having to dump lots of $$$ into another place just to get it up to the standard of my current place (nothing glamorous, but at least a kitchen and bath that aren't stuck in 1940) really turns my stomach. But what are the alternatives? We've got two dogs who need at least a backyard to play in. We don't need much in the way of house size (1100 sq ft would do just fine), we don't have a lot of stuff at all. Is there a way to not shell out high dollars for rent but yet not shell out even higher dollars for a house especially when we probably won't be in our next location for more than 5 years? Just curious how many other BF members are living in non-home ownership circumstances. Yes, we could find a cheaper city, but I've got some family in Seattle and really want to live in a bike-centric area.

Why not rent out the house that you have now, move, and buy again? You will continue to pay on one mortgage unless you are top heavy on what you have now. I took out a small loan for home remodeling and had some left over. I saved it for many years then decided to buy another house. Fortunately, the house cost about $70k (including repairs). The rent should pay for the house in 5 years or so. I have a housemate who pays rent, the two rents combined are nearly enough for me to triple my loan payment. I am on the slow side of work now and have thought about moving somewhere temporarily to make more money to buy yet another place. I think it is best to set something up so that you are taken care of financially. Set up a situation that will work for you should you lose your jobs, your bases are covered.
There are a lot of cheap places to live all over (nice or bad neighborhoods). Since you want to downsize, you may have no problem.

Why not rent out the house that you have now, move, and buy again? You will continue to pay on one mortgage unless you are top heavy on what you have now. I took out a small loan for home remodeling and had some left over. I saved it for many years then decided to buy another house. Fortunately, the house cost about $70k (including repairs). The rent should pay for the house in 5 years or so. I have a housemate who pays rent, the two rents combined are nearly enough for me to triple my loan payment. I am on the slow side of work now and have thought about moving somewhere temporarily to make more money to buy yet another place. I think it is best to set something up so that you are taken care of financially. Set up a situation that will work for you should you lose your jobs, your bases are covered.
There are a lot of cheap places to live all over (nice or bad neighborhoods). Since you want to downsize, you may have no problem.

For a while I used to buy small duplexes or triplexes and let the tenants pay the mortgage...got to pick my neighbors that way too.:innocent: As far as selling and having to update, sometimes that is the best way to get a property for less money, by putting the sweat equity into it.

Aaron:)

Anyone I know who moves to urban centers like Seattle are going to pay considerbly more for housing than most centers I am familiar with ( Mid West...). To deal with that issue, they tend to settle for considerably less housing than they might in the Mid West.

There is the fact that you won't have the additional expense of a car.

But down-sizing does require some tough decisions. You probably need to do some research and ask yourself what it is that you really need.

I just moved from Seattle and the rental market is crazy, You have to remember you have boeing engineers and programmers for google, microsoft, etc who have exceedingly more in discretionary funds and can easily outbid you for real-estate. One choice is to go deep into the burbs, but then the commute takes hours. The other choice is to live and work in the pacific northwest, but in a less populated area like Gold Bar or Index, but even those places are being developed and bought up now. There's a LOT of money out there since it's such a nice place to live, so your going to have to pay a premium to live in a premium area. That said, my wife and I are already looking into returning back to the area, but will likely stay renting for at least the near future, since the rent:house price ratio is still HEAVILY in favor of renting in that whole area.

Oh, one alternative to renting is to live in a coop. They do exist, but make sure you get along well with the co-owners. Another common tactic is to buy a house, and rent out rooms to undergrads. There's ways to make it work, but the ideal way is very specific to the individuals involved and the particular situation.

I see it as two choices, rent from a person or rent from the bank. Ever try to havethe bank fix your furnace? :)

I'll make a suggestion on a totally different track:

Assuming you're not moving for an already set job, why not move somewhere that has the potential to be bicycle friendly but is completely and totally unhip?

Yeah, I'm being serious. As you've discovered, hip destinations have a real bad disadvantage. They're expensive as hell. And is it REALLY that important for you to live next to various coffeehouses, rock clubs, art galleries, etc., etc., etc; just to be able to be smug in living in one of the suposedly hip, neat places in the western world :rolleyes:?

According to the last Wall Street Journal article I've read regarding Portland and Seattle, the employment situation isn't exactly the greatest in either of those towns. Aw, what the heck, you can always become a barista at some trendy, hip coffeeshop! And peddle your butt around town, to and from whatever it is you end up living to the coffeeshop, to all those other places where you don't make enough money to go into on a Saturday night . . . and eventually realize that you're getting nowhere in your life. But you're living in a hip place. :roflmao2:

Assuming you're just planning on making a clean start, why not worry more about how expensive it is to live there, how expensive it is to eat, sleep, and **** in that area? What's available in jobs and how well do they pay in relation to the cost of living? Pick someplace inexpensive, off the beaten track, and do what you will to turning THAT town into a neater place to live. Most towns are easily doable for bicycle commuting (Johnstown and Pittsburgh, PA are the closest I've come to that are difficult), and a bicycle subculture is hardly necessary to be able to get around on your own.

Yeah, I'm cynical. Every time I hear someone is moving to Portland or Seattle, my eyes roll :rolleyes:. Such a lack of originality.

Disclaimer: I'm 59 years old with all that entails. One of the truly wonderful things about late middle age is that you're finally free of the tyranny of being hip - mainly because you're too old to be so anymore. It's nice. Lime green polyester golf slacks are now a possibility - if I want to wear them.

I'll make a suggestion on a totally different track:

Assuming you're not moving for an already set job, why not move somewhere that has the potential to be bicycle friendly but is completely and totally unhip?



I agree! If I were to move back to Canada, Winnipeg would be one of the choices at the top of my list. The city of Winnipeg is not very friendly to cyclists, but the country around is. There is some great riding in the country around there ... empty highways, slow moving traffic. And although the city isn't particularly friendly to cyclists, it is managable by bicycle. But Winnipeg isn't trendy ... the population of Winnipeg doesn't change much ... and the housing prices there have remained relatively stable.

If you want to stay inthe US, I'd look at some of the small-to-medium mid-west cities.

thing is, guys, I've already been living in a very un-hip place for the past 15 years and I'm just ready for a little anything goes attitude. Normally, I wouldn't consider hipness a draw, but in my case, I just need a break from convention. Pittsburgh is a nice place, in fact it's my home town, but I wouldn't want to move there necessarily. I know there's a ton of $$$$ in Seattle, but I don't live too far from Boston and I'm used to people who have $$ for no real reason that is apparent to me. I'd like to get away from that also!! I work in higher ed and my husband works in hi tech so we need to be near a tech-geek hub of some sort. I just don't want anything to do with the suburbs anymore and I've lived in a rural area for long enough to really crave a small house w/ a small yard and a couple of places to hang out in on occasion that you don't have to drive to. Not looking for the moon here. The other thing is, my sister lives in Portland, owns a condo which she just purchased 18 months ago at the height of the housing boom, has a salary half of ours (and even has to pay 9% income tax on it vs zero for us here in NH), and still manages to save money and have way more disposable income than we do. Reason? she never has to drive her car b/c the public transportation is so great there and/or she can walk to everything including her job. She doesn't have any property to maintain so doesn't have to own the cadre of power tools and implements that we do to deal w/ acres of trees, grass, fencing, rocks etc., doesn't have to deal w/ all the home maintenance $$$ issues like heating and plumbing, and also doesn't have any dependents (or even pets) or health issues. I can't do anything about the last two items on the list, but I sure as heck can do something about not owning much property, not having much house to maintain, and finding someplace to live where I don't have to own a car.

The OP needs to head back to Seattle.

The option of buying a fixer upper is long gone in that town so you basically have two options. A nice house with a very long commute or a small two or one bed room condo with a high price. I would take the latter any day of the week (if you have the money) since a commute longer than an hour and half get old fast. Just make sure the condo association accepts pets and you'll be fine. You would be surprised at the HUGE dogs people are living with in Manhattan. You would think these folks are living on farms but no, those dogs are being raised in one bedroom or studios! LOL!

If it were me, I would look to live within walking/biking distance of that lightrail line Sound Transit constructed. You can usually find prices drop further down the line even if it's one or two miles away. They are extending a line to the University and this is a good opportunity to move near that stop before the prices go up. My expereice has been that home prices next to a lightrail stop increase 15% - 20% after four years.

Otherwise, look at the Sounder commuter rail line as a solution but homes next to the line will be expensive. You may have to bike to the rail station but again, prices tend to go down a mile away which can make a huge difference. A one mile bike ride to the commuter rail staion is nothing.

It worse comes to worse, look at the express bus situation. Study the schedules and find out which ones provide frequent service during rush hour. Then look for housing around one of the stops.

The buses can be a good option too, as there are many express runs that go straight from the suburbs into the city, and the buses are super clean (you'll find mostly white collar workers and students on the buses). However, rush hour is brutal on I-5 or on any of the transit services for that matter, so I would avoid any sort of 9-5 job if I was living in the suburbs. I strongly second living in the city in a condo. The city is pedestrian friendly, and most people just walk to wherever they need to go. If you have money and REALLY want a house, you may consider Shoreline or Northgate if you're going to be working in Seattle (stay away from Sodo or South Seattle in general). And if you're going to be working on the Eastside, consider living in Factoria or the out-skirts o Redmond. The best case scenario would probably be to get jobs in Everett, and live there as well. Everett is a really nice city, and is getting nicer, and has direct access to both Seattle and the Cascades.

The other thing is, my sister lives in Portland, owns a condo which she just purchased 18 months ago at the height of the housing boom, has a salary half of ours (and even has to pay 9% income tax on it vs zero for us here in NH), and still manages to save money and have way more disposable income than we do. Reason? she never has to drive her car b/c the public transportation is so great there and/or she can walk to everything including her job. She doesn't have any property to maintain so doesn't have to own the cadre of power tools and implements that we do to deal w/ acres of trees, grass, fencing, rocks etc., doesn't have to deal w/ all the home maintenance $$$ issues like heating and plumbing, and also doesn't have any dependents (or even pets) or health issues. I can't do anything about the last two items on the list, but I sure as heck can do something about not owning much property, not having much house to maintain, and finding someplace to live where I don't have to own a car.

Sounds like your sister provides the model you are aspiring to.
I think you've answered the question correctly. Car ownership costs on average 17% of average household expenditures compared to 32% for housing. [source] (http://www.bikesatwork.com/carfree/cost-of-car-ownership.html).

She doesn't have any property to maintain so doesn't have to own the cadre of power tools and implements that we do to deal w/ acres of trees, grass, fencing, rocks etc., doesn't have to deal w/ all the home maintenance $$$ issues like heating and plumbing,

Though in most condo situations you pay a fee to the association to take care of those things for you--it's not free. And anything goes wrong inside your apt--it's your problem. My wife and I bought a house here in Cambridge a few months ago, and we were lucky--we found an affordable single-family in a city where those two things rarely go together. Personally, I'd rather have the hassle of dealing with the maintenance than dealing with the annoyance of neighbors overhead. We have car we bought used for cash, and out situation is such that we can leave it home most days (wife walks to work; I ride my bike or the T). The condo might work for some, but around here it's a poor value compared to a house. You're probably better off staying a renter than buying a condo.

We do co-op rental for our 722 sq foot split 2 story. It is really affordable and is near good bus lines and the biking is great [midwest]. However, we could not live here if we had dogs. I have friends that have had a difficult time finding even duplexes that would permit a dog and ended up having to purchase a home. If Seattle has an artsy area, it may be a place where you can find small homes that permit companion animals and don't cost a bajillion dollars. I'm not sure if condos allow dogs unless they are small ones.

Could you perhaps buy a vacant lot and put one of these http://www.tumbleweedhouses.com/ on it? Or, as you have family there already, do any of their houses on lots big enough to squeeze a Tumbleweed into the backyard?

I work in higher ed and my husband works in hi tech so we need to be near a tech-geek hub of some sort.

Well, both of those industries are amenable to working from home to some extent. It might be worth looking into seeing if you can get a job that works from home. I managed to teach a course for a Swedish University from my house here in Hawaii (in spite of the 12 hour time difference) and my consulting is all via the internet and occasionally the phone. I still have some teaching that requires me to show up at the University but I do most of my research right from home. Work from home and get an xtracycle for the shopping and you're car free no matter where you are.

What I like about owning my house is it makes it easier to be greener. I just installed a photovoltaic system and now I produce more electricity than I use :D - next up a cistern system - can't do that sort of thing when you're living in a condo.

I'm not convinced that Seattle and Portland are the only places in the free world where one can live carfree, although they may be the only places that are "hip enough" for some people. :rolleyes:

I'm not convinced that Seattle and Portland are the only places in the free world where one can live carfree, although they may be the only places that are "hip enough" for some people. :rolleyes:

I agree w/ you Roody and after much reflection, I've taken Portland and Seattle off of my "must have" list and now I'm on my 2nd tier pics which are centered on college towns since I work in higher ed. Want to weigh in on Champaign, IL or Ithaca, NY? Both of those places seem doable from both a bike-centered and a cost-of-living point of view.

I'm not convinced that Seattle and Portland are the only places in the free world where one can live carfree, although they may be the only places that are "hip enough" for some people. :rolleyes:

Seattle car-free?! :lol: Seattle has as much a if not more of a car culture that their Californian neighbors. I-5 and I-405 are a solid river of cars throughout the day, and if you live on the eastside, the buses are practically useless unless you work at Microsoft. There's also the exceedingly chronic problem of Seattle drivers running over and killing cyclists and pedestrians. I can't tell you how many times I was almost killed in a cross-walk by a car turning right on red without even really slowing down for the intersection. And then there' the Burke-Gilmann trail, a pedestrian "freeway" that passes through the U-district, where I had my first cyclist on cyclist collision due to cyclists riding extremely agressively. Seattle has a LONG way to go before it becomes amenable to a car-free lifestyle.

I lived car-free for one year in downtown Seattle, and you have to be ready to pedal in traffic, and with some of the steep hills in Seattle, you're talking thigh shredding, lung exploding hill climbs trying to go fast enough so the guy in the H3 behind you won't run you over for having the gall to be cycling in front of him even though you're practically tail-gating the car in front of you :notamused:.

On the other hand, Portland seemed to be quite pedestrian and cyclist friendly when I visited there, and I have a friend in Eugene who said pedestrian life is pretty nice there as well.

I agree w/ you Roody and after much reflection, I've taken Portland and Seattle off of my "must have" list and now I'm on my 2nd tier pics which are centered on college towns since I work in higher ed. Want to weigh in on Champaign, IL or Ithaca, NY? Both of those places seem doable from both a bike-centered and a cost-of-living point of view.

Come to Lansing! There's a "real" city right next to the quintissential college town, with a much cheaper housing market. You could be in on the ground floor of a growing bike community in most of these college towns. But I've heard that Champaign has bad traffic and Ithaca is hilly.

My point is, there are hundreds of communities that support carfree living. I sometimes think that happiness is somethin you must eventually find within yourself, not in your surroundings. I know a middle-aged couple who uproot themselves every couple years...always searching for some external perfection that they never find....

I sometimes think that happiness is somethin you must eventually find within yourself, not in your surroundings. ..

this is always the case. I've already got happiness, just looking to ditch the car and not have all my $$$$ go towards housing costs, that's all.

To me I always thought the goal was to a pay off a home so you didn't have to rent. Nows I realize with the current economy things are harder than they were but if you are selling a larger home and want to move to a smaller one first you might wish to look for a place to move where you get get property at a price you can afford. There is even the option of finding a community that allows you to own the property you can place a mobile home on. Yes the home doesn't gain value like a stick house but if you are retired it doesn't matter and you don't pay rent.

To me I always thought the goal was to a pay off a home so you didn't have to rent. Nows I realize with the current economy things are harder than they were but if you are selling a larger home and want to move to a smaller one first you might wish to look for a place to move where you get get property at a price you can afford. There is even the option of finding a community that allows you to own the property you can place a mobile home on. Yes the home doesn't gain value like a stick house but if you are retired it doesn't matter and you don't pay rent.
lol

But if I understand your main point, I probably agree with you. There are a number of good reasons to buy a home, but making money is not one of them.

lol

But if I understand your main point, I probably agree with you. There are a number of good reasons to buy a home, but making money is not one of them.

It used to be and someday may be again. But still the idea was to buy a place you could afford and pay if off before you retired. Once that is done you can be as car free as you like unless you live too far from services. And as some have posted there are new home "models" that are moving away from McMansions. But that isn't always possible for some.

Another option, that might not be technically car free is RV park living. I know people that sign up to work at RV parks all over the country just to get free space rent and maybe a few extra bucks. If someone sold their home and took part of the money to buy a RV, Trailer or fifth wheel big enough to live in they would only have to drive to a new place two to four times a year. Plus that will get to see other parts of the country. Just a thought.

Actually, home ownership was only a money making investment for 5 or 10 years in the late 1990s to mid 2000s. If you look at a graph of real estate prices for the last 150 years, corrected for inflation, it is almost a straight line with a few little "pimples" indicating very short-lived bubbles. At best, financially, home ownership was a hedge against inflation, a tax reducer, and a fancy savings account for retirement. Currently, my amateur prediction is that home prices in most communities will fall a bit more and will remain low for at least a couple years while foreclosures work their way through the market. And I would be surprised if they ever reach their recent high values until there's another bubble in fifty years or so.

thing is, guys, I've already been living in a very un-hip place for the past 15 years and I'm just ready for a little anything goes attitude. Normally, I wouldn't consider hipness a draw, but in my case, I just need a break from convention. Pittsburgh is a nice place, in fact it's my home town, but I wouldn't want to move there necessarily. I know there's a ton of $$$$ in Seattle, but I don't live too far from Boston and I'm used to people who have $$ for no real reason that is apparent to me. I'd like to get away from that also!! I work in higher ed and my husband works in hi tech so we need to be near a tech-geek hub of some sort. I just don't want anything to do with the suburbs anymore and I've lived in a rural area for long enough to really crave a small house w/ a small yard and a couple of places to hang out in on occasion that you don't have to drive to. Not looking for the moon here. The other thing is, my sister lives in Portland, owns a condo which she just purchased 18 months ago at the height of the housing boom, has a salary half of ours (and even has to pay 9% income tax on it vs zero for us here in NH), and still manages to save money and have way more disposable income than we do. Reason? she never has to drive her car b/c the public transportation is so great there and/or she can walk to everything including her job. She doesn't have any property to maintain so doesn't have to own the cadre of power tools and implements that we do to deal w/ acres of trees, grass, fencing, rocks etc., doesn't have to deal w/ all the home maintenance $$$ issues like heating and plumbing, and also doesn't have any dependents (or even pets) or health issues. I can't do anything about the last two items on the list, but I sure as heck can do something about not owning much property, not having much house to maintain, and finding someplace to live where I don't have to own a car.

I retired from a "hip" area to an "unhip" area. I worked most of my career in Washington, D.C. but chose to retire to the "unhip" rural west--I currently live west of Glacier National Park. There are things I miss about D.C., but there is much more that I don't. Urban areas are over congested and close-in housing is expensive. If you're on a tight budget, then you may have to be prepared for the worse-case scenario--a long commute.

Even if the city you're looking at has mass transit, there's likely to be glitches in how it works for you if you have a long commute. For instance, the DC subway system is very nice, but it was designed in the 60s when most jobs were in downtown D.C. so it's set up like a wheel with spokes all going toward a center. Now that many jobs are in the suburbs and you've got many commuting from one suburb to another, the wheel configuration, which requires heading to a transfer point to change to a different "spoke," is inefficient and adds time to commutes (so much time on some commutes that the train becomes unfeasible as a mode of daily transportation). Mass transit can be unreliable, especially if the city doesn't budget for refurbishing their equipment and tries to run old systems beyond their lifespan; buses became a problem in the suburb where I used to live in Maryland; the number of late buses or no-show buses had commuters up in arms. Mass transit can be costly, too. Despite being heavily subsidized by US taxpayers, the D.C. metro is expensive if you live out in the burbs and need to commute very far on a daily basis.

Crime may be an issue too, at least for certain areas of any city. If you can sign up for police alerts, you might (some communities have them). It's a way to get a feel for what neighborhoods have more problems.

If you don't have a job lined up, be prepared to pay a premium for an apartment. Without a job, a complex may demand an upfront deposit that covers a certain number of months (given the current job market, I have no idea how many money might be demanded). You might be better off looking to sublet. However, pets will complicate any rental situation, especially with multiple dogs and if any are considered a "dangerous" breed you may be flat out-of-luck unless you find someone willing to rent a private home to you. You also may not be able to readily budget for your monthly expenses in a rental complex. I don't know about Seattle or Portand, but in D.C. a growing number of apartment complexes are owned by large corporations who have country-wide complexes. They're reconfiguring apartments and dropping individual electric meters. Instead, everyone pays a portion of the complex's total bill (including common areas). So even if you economize, during a cold winter or hot summer, you will pay a portion of your neighbors' electric bills.

Before you buy, I also think you should be certain you like the city that you move to. Just because you have family in Seattle and may have visited it, doesn't mean that you'll like living there, especially if you don't get a job that you love. Renting would at least allow you to check out the city before making a commitment.

There are plenty of "refugees" from Seatlle and Portland that relocated to my area. They have many of the same complaints that many urban dwellers have. You may find the grass isn't green on the other side once you get there. You may not want to completely dump the option of returning to a house that you've made into a cozy home. Good luck. It's always hard when deciding on making a major life change. I just wouldn't rush into buying.

What about a townhouse or rowhouse so you have yard access without the full cost of a fully detached home?

If I were fresh into the job market, I'd think of never buying a home. Are we not told there is no possibility of a life time job anymore.. You'll get thru life hopefully with no more than 7 jobs.. So, why would you want a home for life. It would only be a liability when they can you.
So, being without a car payment or a mortgage should give one the freedom to be free.

If I were fresh into the job market, I'd think of never buying a home. Are we not told there is no possibility of a life time job anymore.. You'll get thru life hopefully with no more than 7 jobs.. So, why would you want a home for life. It would only be a liability when they can you.
So, being without a car payment or a mortgage should give one the freedom to be free.

One doesn't always have to have a mortgage, whereas, if you rent you have to have some kind of contract with your landlord and you have no control over rents rising when inflation kicks in and your contract is up for renewal; rents are skyrocketing in some areas of the US. (If you rent and loose your job, the landlord's not going to forgive monthly rent, you'll get evicted, just like in a foreclosure.) I'm fortunate that I own my home outright. Much more secure than renting or owning with a mortgage.

^....Owning a home and not being able to pay the mortgage when you get sacked every 7 years as we are promised- is hardly security.

If I were fresh into the job market, I'd think of never buying a home. Are we not told there is no possibility of a life time job anymore.. You'll get thru life hopefully with no more than 7 jobs.. So, why would you want a home for life. It would only be a liability when they can you.
So, being without a car payment or a mortgage should give one the freedom to be free.
For many people, owning a home in this recession is more like an anchor than a life preserver. If you can't sell your home, or you can sell it only if you'll take much less than you owe on it, you will find it hard to relocate to a region that has better job prospects.

.^.... Go to bankruptcy .com . ^.. Your point is well taken....... And , how many millions of abandoned homes have been the result of the current economic meltdown. ?

One doesn't always have to have a mortgage, whereas, if you rent you have to have some kind of contract with your landlord and you have no control over rents rising when inflation kicks in and your contract is up for renewal; rents are skyrocketing in some areas of the US. (If you rent and loose your job, the landlord's not going to forgive monthly rent, you'll get evicted, just like in a foreclosure.) I'm fortunate that I own my home outright. Much more secure than renting or owning with a mortgage.

I agree that it would be more secure to own your home outright. But where am I supposed to get this home without a mortgage? The only way I know of is to inherit it, and that's a pretty rare circumstance. Also, you can still get evicted if you don't pay your taxes, or you can be priced out if you need expensive repairs like a new roof and a new furnace.

The contract one has with a landlord (lease) typically has a period of one year. The landlord can't raise the rent during that year. If he wants to raise it after the year is over, you negotiate or move. This is much easier than getting out of a mortgage when a balloon payment kicks in. If rents are skyrocketing in an are, it's usually because there is a housing shortage. In that case, the purchase price of homes will be skyrocketing also.

.^.... Go to bankruptcy .com . ^.. Your point is well taken....... And , how many millions of abandoned homes have been the result of the current economic meltdown. ?
A few months ago I heard that there were 14 million abandoned homes due to foreclosure in the US. I don't know how accurate that figure is. But it's a lot, and they say we're only halfway through the process of stabilizing the market.

I'm definitely off the large urban area kick. My short list looks like this:
Burlington, VT
Northampton, MA
Ithaca, NY
Ann Arbor, MI
Madison, WI
and probably any other liberal stronghold of around 40,000 people w/ a large university system in it

I'm definitely off the large urban area kick. My short list looks like this:
Burlington, VT
Northampton, MA
Ithaca, NY
Ann Arbor, MI
Madison, WI
and probably any other liberal stronghold of around 40,000 people w/ a large university system in it

Iowa City, IA would be on my list along with Madison. It is a nice college town with an outstanding medical center and is working hard to become even more cyclist/pedestrian friendly.

Aaron:)

Take a look at State College, PA. An island of culture out in the middle of nowhere.

Also, don't necessarily write off conservative areas. The college towns in them would probably have you living quite comfortably (I'm assuming from your writing that you need to be in a politically liberal area to feel comfortable). With that in mind, Charlottesville, VA, downtown Richmond, VA (the Fan area around VCU) and Indiana, PA (home of the Indiana University of Pennsylvania - about 30 miles north east of Pittsburgh) have a lot to be said for them.

I'm definitely off the large urban area kick. My short list looks like this:
Burlington, VT
Northampton, MA
Ithaca, NY
Ann Arbor, MI
Madison, WI
and probably any other liberal stronghold of around 40,000 people w/ a large university system in it

From my observations- It's been few university areas where bike infrastructure did not exceed the national standard.

Well folks, looks like we're going put some of these ideas to the test *real* soon as my husband just got laid off yesterday so the deal is on right now to find a new spot and navigate this new landscape. I say new landscape b/c I think those days of finding a "good" job, meaning a nice salary w/ benefits and reasonable workload so that you can live in that decent house w/ nice yard and convenient location are pretty much over. I think the new normal is going to be contract work, part time gigs, and so on. I really hope the govt can get some sort of public option health insurance thing going b/c that is the part that scares me the most regarding our own situation. While I can stomach the idea of living on less $$, I can't imagine what it would be like to pay for medical care out of pocket. I would be considered a very healthy person by most standards, but even so, I've got a couple of unusual and long term conditions (related to eye sight and dental issues) that are just plain expensive to deal with and require ongoing care. I'm somebody who can't get by w/o health insurance. But other than that, I guess we'll be casting our nets far and wide and keeping an open mind about where we might end up.

I was reading every reply, but I ran out of time.

I was in a similar situation. I wanted to live in Austin. It isn't as expensive here as it is on the west coast, but it is the most expensive area in this region of the U.S. I solved the $$$ problem by living in a small travel trailer in a trailer park for 320 a month, plus utilities (and mowing my yard). I work for an environmental company that plants native plants for the wealthy, and for government projects. I'm out working on the land too.

Well, my trailer was slightly too small at a 105' sq. ft. of interior space. I could have easily continued living in it, but I didn't have much room for my dirty clothes even, which was mostly due to the fact that a queen sized bed was not practical for that camper in a full time situation. The other thing is that I've began dating more, and the camper life just was not cutting it. Last, I wanted to live closer to downtown Austin.

So, I moved 3 miles closer in. I was 7 miles out. I rent two bedrooms in a 5 bedroom home for $600 a month, plus my share in the utilities. One room will be used as inventory for an online retail business that I'm setting up.

First, will it only be you and your mate? If so, do you really need 1,100 sq. feet? Consider living in something smaller than average, and/or consider co-housing.

Basically, we have a bit of a hippie co-housing project starting up here. I'm single, and really enjoy the company of roommates.

First, will it only be you and your mate? If so, do you really need 1,100 sq. feet? Consider living in something smaller than average, and/or consider co-housing.



nothing like a little necessity to really change your perspective. the house we've been living in for the past 15 years is 2200 sq ft. It is considered "tiny" for this part of the country where giant old colonials, sprawling farm houses, and McMansions glower o'er the landscape. We also have a couple acres of land. So it really took a mental leap for me to begin to think we could survive just fine in a house half the size and w/ a yard a fraction of what we have now. that was a BIG leap for me as I grow most of our food and have a garden about 7500 sq ft but have been experimenting w/ a "square foot" garden system to see if I could still produce food in a smaller area. Plus I live in a very rural area and am used to lots of pasture and woods around me and open space. Again, a huge leap into thinking about living at such proximity to other people. But, we may end up in a configuration we wouldn't have considered or thought we could manage, who knows, really. Right now, my desire to go car free may just become a reality out of necessity. Actually, I'd walk right into that shoe right now, it's just the 700 ft incline up to my house that is so daunting, I hate that climb and the thought of lugging 50 pounds of dog food up that hill almost makes me cry. I'm a flat lander by nature as I"m from the midwest. But getting rid of my car has never been more tempting.

nothing like a little necessity to really change your perspective. the house we've been living in for the past 15 years is 2200 sq ft. It is considered "tiny" for this part of the country where giant old colonials, sprawling farm houses, and McMansions glower o'er the landscape. We also have a couple acres of land. So it really took a mental leap for me to begin to think we could survive just fine in a house half the size and w/ a yard a fraction of what we have now. that was a BIG leap for me as I grow most of our food and have a garden about 7500 sq ft but have been experimenting w/ a "square foot" garden system to see if I could still produce food in a smaller area. Plus I live in a very rural area and am used to lots of pasture and woods around me and open space. Again, a huge leap into thinking about living at such proximity to other people. But, we may end up in a configuration we wouldn't have considered or thought we could manage, who knows, really. Right now, my desire to go car free may just become a reality out of necessity. Actually, I'd walk right into that shoe right now, it's just the 700 ft incline up to my house that is so daunting, I hate that climb and the thought of lugging 50 pounds of dog food up that hill almost makes me cry. I'm a flat lander by nature as I"m from the midwest. But getting rid of my car has never been more tempting.

Good luck with whatever choices you make!:thumb:

We currently live in the outer edges of what is becoming suburbia:rolleyes: along with all the good and the bad. Squarefoot gardening rocks! With cold frames and a 100 watt light bulb I can pretty much garden year round in the part of the south I live in. Going from the open spaces of a country home to living in a large city can be hard, I prefer smaller towns that can be easily covered in a few minutes by bike. I have found that quite often you can get free use of a lot on the edge of town for gardening, or in some cases they have nice community gardening opportunities.

Aaron:)

I can suggest a few places that may appeal.

Austin Texas IT hub
Tempe Arizona IT hub
Salt Lake City Utah
Colorado Springs CO sorta IT hub

I live in Scottsdale near Tempe and am carfree. Tons of cycling infrastructure and great weather. Very cheap.
Lots of call center jobs for IT.

this is always the case. I've already got happiness, just looking to ditch the car and not have all my $$$$ go towards housing costs, that's all.

The member just before me stated Salt Lake City; Colorado and others. I suppose they've advantages. Most all that's been written here makes seense, your thoughts too. Many aspects well anylized.
ITHICA is a standout; I'm from Ny State so I'm partial, Up State's beautifull in every way and not an obnoxious ride or trip by bus or if you would rent a car or otherwise get to NYC from time to time. Moreover.. Ithica and saimilar Up State towns and cities are DIRT CHEAP !!!! I'm talkin' properties at mid-1960s prices; 60k in some cases, 160 for an huge Colonial on half an acre just for example. Rental is less than 7,8 (actually less) in some cases. Perhaps not neccessarily in that exact city proper but all up through there. A negative turned into a possitive, your possitive. The whole darn Up State's depressed, you won't be.

Actually, I'd walk right into that shoe right now, it's just the 700 ft incline up to my house that is so daunting, I hate that climb and the thought of lugging 50 pounds of dog food up that hill almost makes me cry. I'm a flat lander by nature as I"m from the midwest. But getting rid of my car has never been more tempting.

Get a Surly Big Dummy with an electric assist system and you will carry the 50 lbs up that hill no problem. Really. Do it.

When I was in my 20s I considered unusual alternatives to regular houses. I still would like an underground home. I also like the Monolithic Dome Homes. Those would still be houses just in an unusual form.

An alternative that I would like to own is a custom designed mobile home. It would be all fiberglass with thick insulation from top to bottom. It would be capable of being sealed water tight. That way in any flooding situation it would float. I would also have all the regular edges made very round. It wouldn't be a cylinder but it would be more like the way a loaf of bread is round on the top and ends. That way it would be more aerodynamic to avoid being damaged by high winds.

Essentially it would be like a house boat one might see floating in a river in Europe. It would be long, no wider than sixteen feet, but it wouldn't have a deck. Instead it would just have a door and windows that could be sealed in case of a flood. It would be about sixty feet long and have solar panels on the roof.

If I went to a luxury boat builder and wanted this made it would cost about a million dollars. Wouldn't it be strange to park a million dollar trailer home in a regular trailer park? The best thing about this idea is that it would not only be a luxurious small home, it would be totally portable. You could keep your home forever. Just move it to wherever you want to live. :)

Well folks, looks like we're going put some of these ideas to the test *real* soon as my husband just got laid off yesterday so the deal is on right now to find a new spot and navigate this new landscape. I say new landscape b/c I think those days of finding a "good" job, meaning a nice salary w/ benefits and reasonable workload so that you can live in that decent house w/ nice yard and convenient location are pretty much over. I think the new normal is going to be contract work, part time gigs, and so on. I really hope the govt can get some sort of public option health insurance thing going b/c that is the part that scares me the most regarding our own situation. While I can stomach the idea of living on less $$, I can't imagine what it would be like to pay for medical care out of pocket. I would be considered a very healthy person by most standards, but even so, I've got a couple of unusual and long term conditions (related to eye sight and dental issues) that are just plain expensive to deal with and require ongoing care. I'm somebody who can't get by w/o health insurance. But other than that, I guess we'll be casting our nets far and wide and keeping an open mind about where we might end up.

Wow! You have my condolences.

What's really going to destroy the middle class is health insurance. The prices of health care is skyrocketing and companies are dropping their health care for employees and the ones that have good plans like my job are looking to go HMO. You end up in a hospital without coverage and get ready to empty the equity of your home to pay the bills. Diabetes, cancer, heart disease and Alzheimer’s are going to break Medicare and Medicaid if we don't get control of the costs.

Going car free was easy, but going health care free is going to be next! Seriously. Americans are being priced out of health care just as they will be the motorcar

Another option, that might not be technically car free is RV park living. I know people that sign up to work at RV parks all over the country just to get free space rent and maybe a few extra bucks. If someone sold their home and took part of the money to buy a RV, Trailer or fifth wheel big enough to live in they would only have to drive to a new place two to four times a year. Plus that will get to see other parts of the country. Just a thought.

As crazy as it sounds, I'm beginning to like the idea of living in a motorized home! LOL! There are thousands of people in this country living in campers, vans, cars, buses and RVs and living like minimalists. It's an idea that I'm going to serious consider once I hit 65 and can no longer live in my area on Social Security.

My other plan is to move to India after retirement. You can live real cheap in that country! LOL!

nothing like a little necessity to really change your perspective. the house we've been living in for the past 15 years is 2200 sq ft. It is considered "tiny" for this part of the country where giant old colonials, sprawling farm houses, and McMansions glower o'er the landscape. We also have a couple acres of land. So it really took a mental leap for me to begin to think we could survive just fine in a house half the size and w/ a yard a fraction of what we have now. that was a BIG leap for me as I grow most of our food and have a garden about 7500 sq ft but have been experimenting w/ a "square foot" garden system to see if I could still produce food in a smaller area. Plus I live in a very rural area and am used to lots of pasture and woods around me and open space. Again, a huge leap into thinking about living at such proximity to other people. But, we may end up in a configuration we wouldn't have considered or thought we could manage, who knows, really. Right now, my desire to go car free may just become a reality out of necessity. Actually, I'd walk right into that shoe right now, it's just the 700 ft incline up to my house that is so daunting, I hate that climb and the thought of lugging 50 pounds of dog food up that hill almost makes me cry. I'm a flat lander by nature as I"m from the midwest. But getting rid of my car has never been more tempting.
Here's a new idea. How about a small town? There are a lot of small towns that contain a small liberal arts college. You could easily live in the country and still only be as couple miles from town. These towns can be progressive bastions with a very comfortble lifestyle at a very low price. Renting a tiny house in the country may be the cheapest housing anywhere. I'm thinking of a college with maybe 1,000 enrollment in a town of maybe 5,000 to 10,000 people. Olivet, MI is one such town that I'm aware of, but they are all over the place.