"The 33"-Road Bike Racing - How important is top sprint speed for racing Cat 4/5?

I build a road bike up a few months ago with the intent of racing in the spring, and my training so far is coming pretty well: except for my sprint speed. As much as I try I can't increase it at all. I hit 30mph about a month ago, and while everything else is still improving I haven't been able to sprint .01mph faster since. After a hill or with a lead-out I can go faster, but my solo effort just stops dead there.

Is this something I should worry will affect my racing (and therefore spend more time working it), or should I just continue on with my training plan and not worry about it as much?

Try this.

Before your next ride, drink two Monster energy drinks. Last time I did that, my flat/slightly uphill sprint speed went up to 36mph from 32.

Two would effect your eyes.

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh187/10wheels/The%20Real%2042%20South%20Ride/3831178696_260423cca3_o.jpg

It's going to be fairly important in flat races and crits. In cat 4 there will be people who can pull a steady 30mph for a minute at least. I personally know some cat 4s who sprint 38mph in practice and AFAIK they still haven't won a race. They do place in the top ten fairly often though.

As with all races, it's going to depend on the type of race and who is in it. If you are an awesome climber or TTist, you might pull off a win with crap for a sprint. But then an awesome TTist would be able to sustain 30mph for longer than just a peak.

In flat solo sprint drills I can get it up to 33/34 or so. That is pathetic in pretty much any cat against real sprinters. I'm an ok TTist and fair climber though. I can take a few pulls in the 30mph vicinity without totally dying. A few only.

I'm decent at climbing and TTing, I just can't sprint to save my life, I can sustain 25 for a few miles, and the time I can sustain 30 keeps improving, I just can't improve the actual speed.

Any good drills for improving speed? I've been sprinting all out, then resting for a few minutes, then more sprinting, etc, and also doing sprints after short downhills with repeats. Anything better for sprints?

I can't sprint worth crap and I've won two races; sprinting is not the be all of racing. People worry too much about everything being perfect before they even try to race. Just go race and you will figure out quickly enough what you need to work on in your training. That said, if you can barely hit 30 in an all-out sprint, then you've got some work to do...

Where is that excellent sprinter della casa blog post?

That said, if you can barely hit 30 in an all-out sprint, then you've got some work to do...

Which is why I'm asking all the stupid questions now and not the end of February :)

I'm decent at climbing and TTing, I just can't sprint to save my life

Yeah! Where's a race for us climbers!? I can drop a lot of people on mountains, but flats and sprints kill me.

I'm decent at climbing and TTing, I just can't sprint to save my life, I can sustain 25 for a few miles, and the time I can sustain 30 keeps improving, I just can't improve the actual speed.

Any good drills for improving speed? I've been sprinting all out, then resting for a few minutes, then more sprinting, etc, and also doing sprints after short downhills with repeats. Anything better for sprints?

I've been told that power starts are awesome sprint training. Basically starting from a near-trackstand in a very large gear and then spinning it up as fast as you can to the highest possible RPM.

I've been told that power starts are awesome sprint training. Basically starting from a near-trackstand in a very large gear and then spinning it up as fast as you can to the highest possible RPM.

From what I've read,

It's not meant to be stand still to highest rpm,
but...

stand still to highest speed in a certain distance/time...
what you want is to increase your strength from slow twitch muscles which are utilized in low rpm efforts.

Correct me if I am wrong..

could be. I don't work on sprinting by choice.

From what I've read,

It's not meant to be stand still to highest rpm,
but...

stand still to highest speed in a certain distance/time...
what you want is to increase your strength from slow twitch muscles which are utilized in low rpm efforts.

Correct me if I am wrong..

Maybe not wrong, but it gets murky here. The contraction speeds are important, but so are the forces needed. Fast twitch are also stronger, so you'd expect to be recruiting more of them too. Generally, it's duffices to say that you recruit slow-twitch (Type I) first, and don't recruit many fast-twitch (Type II) until higher forces are needed. This is part ofthe argument for using a higher cadence. Really, power depends on your ability to quickly recruit many fibers in a coordinated fashion.

We have a local group ride that a couple of former semi-pro sprinters and lead-out men roll along to. Usually around 40 in the group total. At the halfway point, another group ride of guys on TT rigs woosh past, and the ride becomes "drop everyone, attack and hammer". My sprint training is trying to hold the wheel of the former pro's, and in doing so it's basically simulated race conditions.

Sorry for digressing, but I felt It was appropriate to add.

unless you are soloing in, you're gonna have to sprint a small group or a big one if you want to win. you need to develop explosive power; those kilo track standstill starts are good. you also need technique and high cadence; seated sprints with friends are good. a game some old timers developed had you sit on a $20 bill, and you had to keep it on your seat while your mates were sprinting you trying to take it. lots of guys start their sprints on too big a gear. you also need to practise coming out of the pocket. lead out games with willing friends are fun.

I build a road bike up a few months ago with the intent of racing in the spring, and my training so far is coming pretty well: except for my sprint speed. As much as I try I can't increase it at all. I hit 30mph about a month ago, and while everything else is still improving I haven't been able to sprint .01mph faster since. After a hill or with a lead-out I can go faster, but my solo effort just stops dead there.

Is this something I should worry will affect my racing (and therefore spend more time working it), or should I just continue on with my training plan and not worry about it as much?

I would continue on with your training. If you're doing faster with a (down) hill or a leadout, that's reasonable. You'll need to be able to follow moves which are reasonably fast (30-35 mph).

Pure sprinting is about power and coordination. You can work on this, but I have a feeling your first race will teach you a lot. Then you'll have a good idea of what to do - power or coordination. If you simply can't go fast, that's power. If you feel like you can go faster but you can't pedal fast enough (that's the feeling) then it may be coordination. The latter would be things like making sure you can coordinate your upper body and your legs (standing, pulling/pushing, etc).

The rest of sprinting is tactics - position and reserves. The more reserves you have, the bigger the effort you can make. More than once I've gotten to 200 meters to go and I have absolutely nothing left. But since I usually look a wreck anyway, a lot of riders keep thinking I'll be sprinting, and when I never jump, they get a bit disturbed.

Good position can make a huge difference, even to the point where not sprinting can get you a top 10 or 15, or sprinting like mad nets you something outside of the top 20.

Sprinting:
http://sprinterdellacasa.blogspot.com/2007/02/how-to-actual-sprint.html

Working on sprinting:
http://sprinterdellacasa.blogspot.com/2007/02/how-to-working-on-sprinting.html

Finishing off the sprint:
http://sprinterdellacasa.blogspot.com/2006/12/sprinting-throwing-your-bike.html
(some may snicker at a Cat 5 throwing their bike at the line but you have to start somewhere + I've seen 3-4 rider finishes where no one threw their bike and if any of them did they'd have won the race)

Team sprint (leadouts):
http://sprinterdellacasa.blogspot.com/2007/07/tactics-leadouts.html

There's more too but that should get you started.

cdr

*edit* I forgot this part - sprinting determines race places a lot, meaning you need to sprint to determine your finishing position. You need to sprint even if you're in a two man group. So knowing how to sprint is critical if you want to place in races.

Climbing and time trialing are more related to FTP, i.e. steady output. It's what (I think) 99% of racers work on (2x20s, lots of efforts longer than 10-60 seconds). The same 99% also rarely work on tactics. FTP will get you to the end of races but sprinting will win you them (quote is from someone in BF, forgot who). When racers get to the end of the race, you help riders like me - I can sit in and last a little bit longer if the group stays larger.

For those that like TTs and climbing:
http://sprinterdellacasa.blogspot.com/2007/05/how-to-beat-sprinter.html

Practice, practice, practice...

CDR - thanks for those links!

Yeah! Where's a race for us climbers!?
http://everestchallenge.com (http://everestchallenge.com/)

Thanks for the tips CDR, I think I'm going to take the week and just relax, do some easy riding and low-effort spinning on the rollers, then hit hard again next week. I'll try some of the exercises here and see if I can manage any real results by the end of the year.

And I seriously doubt I'll do any good until I get some actual race experience, but I don't see any reason to not work on a few specifics while I've got the time.

Yeah! Where's a race for us climbers!? I can drop a lot of people on mountains, but flats and sprints kill me.

Caad - Mt. Washington Hilclimb awaits you! The Mt Washington Auto Road is 7.6 miles in length (but my computer always reads 7.8 though!), has an average grade of 12% with extended sections of 18% and the last 50 yards is an amazing 22% sprint that to the finish! It's all uphill - perfect for guys like you and me!

Thanks for the tips CDR, I think I'm going to take the week and just relax, do some easy riding and low-effort spinning on the rollers, then hit hard again next week. I'll try some of the exercises here and see if I can manage any real results by the end of the year.

And I seriously doubt I'll do any good until I get some actual race experience, but I don't see any reason to not work on a few specifics while I've got the time.

I don't know how cold Utah gets but in my short time in Utah the temps were really low. If you're doing this work outside, you'll naturally go slower in the cold (speeds simply decrease due to you burning energy to stay warm). If you're doing this on the trainer, the trainer will limit you to about 1000 watts, give or take, and you'll max out your speed accordingly.

I like your attitude, and I think when you get around to the actual racing, you'll be fine.

cdr

Like a wise sage once told me: "Train your weaknesses, race your strengths".

I can't sprint worth crap and I've won two races; sprinting is not the be all of racing. People worry too much about everything being perfect before they even try to race. Just go race and you will figure out quickly enough what you need to work on in your training. That said, if you can barely hit 30 in an all-out sprint, then you've got some work to do...

well said and correct.

If you want to be able to come around everyone from 15th-20th place it's critical to be able to sprint (find your way through the crowd while going fast). If you're in the top 5-8 at the final turn, things are much less difficult.

A lot of cyclists (mainly ones without much racing experience) assume that sprinting is like a drag race. They think that the "fastest" sprinter wins, just like in drag racing. So they approach race training from the standpoint that they have to work on top speed.

But bike racing is NOT drag racing. And sprinting is so NOT about top speed.

Consider these race situations:

A.. Rider #1 has the fastest top speed. A full 2 mph faster than anyone else in the field (which is HUGE). He can hold that speed for 200 meters. He is first around the last corner of a crit, 250 meters from the finish line where he starts his sprint. As he runs out of steam after 200 meters, he is still 50 meters from the line. He is easily passed by 15 riders who patiently sat on his wheel as he led THEM out for the sprint. Being fastest did nothing to help Rider #1 win this race because he started his sprint too soon. His problem wasn't top speed. It was timing.

B. Same rider learns from his last race and decides to be more patient next time. He is first arount the last corner of a crit, 250 meters from the finish line. But he patiently waits until he is 150 meters from the line to start his sprint. Unfortunately, the rider on his wheel started his sprint at 200 meters out and beats Rider #1 by 2 bike lengths. Even though at the time Rider #1 crossed the finish line he was going 2 mph faster than the winning rider, he lost because he started his sprint too late. Once again, his problem wasn't top speed. His problem was poor timing.

C. Same rider realizes that he must start his sprint at exactly the 200 meter mark, not sooner, not later. Before the race he makes a mental note of a landmark exactly 200 meters from the finish line. This is where he intends to start his sprint. On the last lap of his race, at the 500 meter mark Waterrockets jumps and solos to a victory while Rider #1 wonders in frustration why everyone didn't cooperate with him and wait for the 200 meter mark to start their sprint. Rider #1 might have been fastest over 200 meters. But he didn't realize that Waterrockets was fastest over 500 meters. Rider #1 realizes that "top speed" is difficult to quantify. Is someone who can go 40 mph for 200 meters faster than someone who can go 38 mph for 500 meters? Is a higher speed over a shorter distance really faster?

D. Same rider decides what he really needs is a lead-out in order to win. So in his next race he jumps on the wheel of the first guy who starts his sprint (from 500 meters out). Unfortunately, at the 300 meter mark that guy runs out of steam and sits up. Rider #1 manages to get around him but 100 meters from the line he runs out of steam and is passed by 15 smarter racers. Rider #1 lost because he picked the wrong wheel and because he went too soon, not because he didn't have the best top speed. Once again, timing and positioning were more important than pure top speed.

E. Same rider realizes that he needs to pick a better wheel. He enlists a team-mate's help to lead him out. His team-mate accelerates at the 400 meter mark, intending to drop off at the 200 meter mark where Rider #1 can sprint to victory. Everything works perfectly and at the 200 meter mark the team-mate drifts right and sits up. Unfortunately, Rider #1 is boxed in on his left and has nowhere to go to unleash his awesome sprint. Once again he finishes outside the top 10. Sometimes luck, not top speed determines a winner.

F. Same rider, same circumstances as the above example. Realizing that he is boxed in, Rider #1 desperately looks for any opening that he can squeeze through in order to be able to start his sprint. He sees one and steers for it, only to be bumped by the rider next to him and cursed at by the rider behind him. Rider #1 is unnerved and sits up. He finishes 30th. Once again his problem was not lack of top speed. His problem was lack of pack handling skills, especially those skills needed to deal with the chaos and aggressive riding that occurs during a sprint finish.

G. Same rider is starting to get frustrated. He knows that he is the fastest sprinter, but he has yet to even podium. He thinks he needs to get faster (instead of smarter), and so he doubles his sprinting workouts. Coming into the last corner of his next crit he misjudges his line and his speed and has to grab a handful of brakes to keep from hitting a curb, instantly scrubbing 10 mph from his speed. His position drops from 3rd to 20th in a span of 3 seconds. Although he manages to pass 8 guys in the sprint, he still finishes outside of a top 10. His problem isn't top speed. His problem is poor bike-handling skills.

H. Same rider decides he to abandon his idea of winning a pack sprint. He figures he needs to get in a breakaway where all he has to do is beat the 3 or 4 other guys in the break, not the whole pack. He relentlessly bridges up to every attack hoping one of them will stick. Because of his efforts, no attack succeeds. The race boils down to a sprint finish. Rider #1 times his sprint perfectly and jumps at 200 meters. But he runs out of steam at the 150 meter mark and gets passed by 15 riders. He realizes that he burned too many matches during the race. As a result he was unable to sustain his awesome sprint and once again finished outside the top ten. Proper race management skills are essential to sprinting/finishing well, not pure top speed.

I. Same Rider finds himself in a race where all the planets line up perfectly for him. He has conserved his matches during the race. He takes the last corner skillfully. At the 200 meter mark he stands up and slowly starts accelerating to his top speed. At the 100 meter mark he has reached his top sprint speed and is leading the pack. He thinks, surely victory will finally be his! At the 50 meter mark he is passed on the left by rider #2 and on the right by rider #3, who patiently sat in his draft and jumped out at the last possible moment to steal 1st and 2nd place. Rider #1's problem wasn't lack of top speed. It was lack of a jump at the beginning of his sprint that would have created the separation that is necessary to prevent other riders from simply using him as a lead-out. Having a good jump is an essential component of successful sprinting. Without it, even the fastest sprinter is essentially just a lead-out man for everyone else.

Moral of the story:

Effective sprinting is about timing, positioning, bike handling, picking a good wheel, conserving your matches, having a good "jump", and a little luck, much more so than pure top speed. Top speed surely helps, but without the other essential skills mentioned you're still just pack fodder.

Bob

intervals and speed drills - period.

Confucious say - "you are what you train for"

....Lemme guess, you do lots of group rides and med-tempo pace riding. Set up a regimen and mix up your training. That means ditching the group once or twice a week and doing speed/strength drills. Keep your body guessing and promote development of all aspects of riding. Same goes for TT and climbing. If that's all you do, that's all you'll be good at.

Moral of the story:

Effective sprinting is about timing, positioning, bike handling, picking a good wheel, conserving your matches, having a good "jump", and a little luck, much more so than pure top speed. Top speed surely helps, but without the other essential skills mentioned you're still just pack fodder.

Bob

As one looking to race (successfully or not :)) for the first time this spring, wow, thanks...that all makes good sense and is great stuff to remember.

intervals and speed drills - period.

Confucious say - "you are what you train for"

....Lemme guess, you do lots of group rides and med-tempo pace riding. Set up a regimen and mix up your training. That means ditching the group once or twice a week and doing speed/strength drills. Keep your body guessing and promote development of all aspects of riding. Same goes for TT and climbing. If that's all you do, that's all you'll be good at.

Guilty as charged here... :(

intervals and speed drills - period.

Confucious say - "you are what you train for"

....Lemme guess, you do lots of group rides and med-tempo pace riding. Set up a regimen and mix up your training. That means ditching the group once or twice a week and doing speed/strength drills. Keep your body guessing and promote development of all aspects of riding. Same goes for TT and climbing. If that's all you do, that's all you'll be good at.

Actually what I'm doing right now is one day of hill intervals, one day of speed (flat land) intervals, one day full out balls to the wall TTing (mostly trying to work on how long I can go and how aerodynamic I can make myself), then a day doing a long endurance ride, then finally a group ride. But the only group ride I can find is a bunch of Cat 1/2s who ride by my house, so it's more like me hopping in and suffering until they drop me, but I keep hanging on longer and longer. It's easier for me to ride in the mornings before work, so these are what I can do while I don't have too much time right now. I only have a heart rate monitor though, so that's what I've been training with.

And thank you very much Bobby Lex, that's good advice (for me at least). I've been reading the tactics post on CDRs blog and it's giving me plenty to think about. Of course I'll forget it all when that first race comes, but it'll come to mind eventually :)

VERY nicely stated Bobby Lex. excellent post, chapeau.

Why do people worry about their sprint speed when they don't even know if they can hang on to the end yet?

I can't sprint worth crap and I've won two races; sprinting is not the be all of racing. People worry too much about everything being perfect before they even try to race. Just go race and you will figure out quickly enough what you need to work on in your training. That said, if you can barely hit 30 in an all-out sprint, then you've got some work to do...


Why do people worry about their sprint speed when they don't even know if they can hang on to the end yet?


^^^This^^^

Actually what I'm doing right now is one day of hill intervals, one day of speed (flat land) intervals, one day full out balls to the wall TTing (mostly trying to work on how long I can go and how aerodynamic I can make myself), then a day doing a long endurance ride, then finally a group ride. But the only group ride I can find is a bunch of Cat 1/2s who ride by my house, so it's more like me hopping in and suffering until they drop me, but I keep hanging on longer and longer. It's easier for me to ride in the mornings before work, so these are what I can do while I don't have too much time right now. I only have a heart rate monitor though, so that's what I've been training with.

And thank you very much Bobby Lex, that's good advice (for me at least). I've been reading the tactics post on CDRs blog and it's giving me plenty to think about. Of course I'll forget it all when that first race comes, but it'll come to mind eventually :)

This will make you much faster and a more skilled rider. Work on that sprint and you may just end up with the whole package and become one of those riders who breeze through the lower cats. Experienced friends can teach you so much more than just how to ride hard.

A lot of cyclists (mainly ones without much racing experience) assume that sprinting is like a drag race. They think that the "fastest" sprinter wins, just like in drag racing. So they approach race training from the standpoint that they have to work on top speed.

But bike racing is NOT drag racing. And sprinting is so NOT about top speed.

Consider these race situations:

A.. Rider #1 has the fastest top speed. A full 2 mph faster than anyone else in the field (which is HUGE). He can hold that speed for 200 meters. He is first around the last corner of a crit, 250 meters from the finish line where he starts his sprint. As he runs out of steam after 200 meters, he is still 50 meters from the line. He is easily passed by 15 riders who patiently sat on his wheel as he led THEM out for the sprint. Being fastest did nothing to help Rider #1 win this race because he started his sprint too soon. His problem wasn't top speed. It was timing.

B. Same rider learns from his last race and decides to be more patient next time. He is first arount the last corner of a crit, 250 meters from the finish line. But he patiently waits until he is 150 meters from the line to start his sprint. Unfortunately, the rider on his wheel started his sprint at 200 meters out and beats Rider #1 by 2 bike lengths. Even though at the time Rider #1 crossed the finish line he was going 2 mph faster than the winning rider, he lost because he started his sprint too late. Once again, his problem wasn't top speed. His problem was poor timing.

C. Same rider realizes that he must start his sprint at exactly the 200 meter mark, not sooner, not later. Before the race he makes a mental note of a landmark exactly 200 meters from the finish line. This is where he intends to start his sprint. On the last lap of his race, at the 500 meter mark Waterrockets jumps and solos to a victory while Rider #1 wonders in frustration why everyone didn't cooperate with him and wait for the 200 meter mark to start their sprint. Rider #1 might have been fastest over 200 meters. But he didn't realize that Waterrockets was fastest over 500 meters. Rider #1 realizes that "top speed" is difficult to quantify. Is someone who can go 40 mph for 200 meters faster than someone who can go 38 mph for 500 meters? Is a higher speed over a shorter distance really faster?

D. Same rider decides what he really needs is a lead-out in order to win. So in his next race he jumps on the wheel of the first guy who starts his sprint (from 500 meters out). Unfortunately, at the 300 meter mark that guy runs out of steam and sits up. Rider #1 manages to get around him but 100 meters from the line he runs out of steam and is passed by 15 smarter racers. Rider #1 lost because he picked the wrong wheel and because he went too soon, not because he didn't have the best top speed. Once again, timing and positioning were more important than pure top speed.

E. Same rider realizes that he needs to pick a better wheel. He enlists a team-mate's help to lead him out. His team-mate accelerates at the 400 meter mark, intending to drop off at the 200 meter mark where Rider #1 can sprint to victory. Everything works perfectly and at the 200 meter mark the team-mate drifts right and sits up. Unfortunately, Rider #1 is boxed in on his left and has nowhere to go to unleash his awesome sprint. Once again he finishes outside the top 10. Sometimes luck, not top speed determines a winner.

F. Same rider, same circumstances as the above example. Realizing that he is boxed in, Rider #1 desperately looks for any opening that he can squeeze through in order to be able to start his sprint. He sees one and steers for it, only to be bumped by the rider next to him and cursed at by the rider behind him. Rider #1 is unnerved and sits up. He finishes 30th. Once again his problem was not lack of top speed. His problem was lack of pack handling skills, especially those skills needed to deal with the chaos and aggressive riding that occurs during a sprint finish.

G. Same rider is starting to get frustrated. He knows that he is the fastest sprinter, but he has yet to even podium. He thinks he needs to get faster (instead of smarter), and so he doubles his sprinting workouts. Coming into the last corner of his next crit he misjudges his line and his speed and has to grab a handful of brakes to keep from hitting a curb, instantly scrubbing 10 mph from his speed. His position drops from 3rd to 20th in a span of 3 seconds. Although he manages to pass 8 guys in the sprint, he still finishes outside of a top 10. His problem isn't top speed. His problem is poor bike-handling skills.

H. Same rider decides he to abandon his idea of winning a pack sprint. He figures he needs to get in a breakaway where all he has to do is beat the 3 or 4 other guys in the break, not the whole pack. He relentlessly bridges up to every attack hoping one of them will stick. Because of his efforts, no attack succeeds. The race boils down to a sprint finish. Rider #1 times his sprint perfectly and jumps at 200 meters. But he runs out of steam at the 150 meter mark and gets passed by 15 riders. He realizes that he burned too many matches during the race. As a result he was unable to sustain his awesome sprint and once again finished outside the top ten. Proper race management skills are essential to sprinting/finishing well, not pure top speed.

I. Same Rider finds himself in a race where all the planets line up perfectly for him. He has conserved his matches during the race. He takes the last corner skillfully. At the 200 meter mark he stands up and slowly starts accelerating to his top speed. At the 100 meter mark he has reached his top sprint speed and is leading the pack. He thinks, surely victory will finally be his! At the 50 meter mark he is passed on the left by rider #2 and on the right by rider #3, who patiently sat in his draft and jumped out at the last possible moment to steal 1st and 2nd place. Rider #1's problem wasn't lack of top speed. It was lack of a jump at the beginning of his sprint that would have created the separation that is necessary to prevent other riders from simply using him as a lead-out. Having a good jump is an essential component of successful sprinting. Without it, even the fastest sprinter is essentially just a lead-out man for everyone else.

Moral of the story:

Effective sprinting is about timing, positioning, bike handling, picking a good wheel, conserving your matches, having a good "jump", and a little luck, much more so than pure top speed. Top speed surely helps, but without the other essential skills mentioned you're still just pack fodder.

Bob

Damn Bob. Have you been tracking me in races? I'm definitely racer #1.

Why do people worry about their sprint speed when they don't even know if they can hang on to the end yet?

That's me. That's why I'm worrying about FTP & VO2 mostly. Once I can finish races with the pack then I'll start changing training routines to try to win. But for this year I'll be happy if I can finish with the pack and maybe help teammates out a bit.

It makes sense to worry about sprint speeds even if you can't finish a race. In fact, it's even more important if you can't finish a race.

Sprint speed has something to do with staying in the field - they both deal with maximum speed. Without sufficient maximum speed, you'll get dropped.

A good friend of mine started racing many moons ago. He couldn't finish with the group in a Cat 5 race. He asked me for advice. I asked him where he got dropped, how he felt, what he was feeling/doing for the minute or two before he got dropped.

It became apparent that although he was fine on the short 150 meter hill (at the Bethel, CT course), he lacked the speed to stay with the field on the flatter, faster bits. This reminded me of the horrific experience I had when I learned that racing was about going really fast.

Horrific experience buried in this story:
http://sprinterdellacasa.blogspot.com/2007/05/story-bloomin-metric-and-me.html

I asked him to do a loop we normally did on our group rides, to sprint at one section (slight downhill, then a nice flat straight), and report to me his maximum speed. He duly went out and did that. Came back and gave me his report.

31 mph.

Although I hadn't raced the 5s, the 3-4s typically go 30-32 mph on the flat bits during many laps of the race, and "fast" would be 35-38+ mph. Heck, I sprint up the hill at 30+ mph. So a "self lead out" (with the downhill) into a flat bit of road, 31 mph, that's not good. Pretty bad actually.

I told him he had to go faster. I could say this quite frankly because we were friends, but I think the news was pretty demoralizing. I gave him some tips, and over the course of 4-5 weeks, he increased his max speed.

Instead of getting dropped, he started contesting field sprints.

Here's more detail:
http://sprinterdellacasa.blogspot.com/2008/10/story-two-and-half-minutes.html

The thing that ALL new racers lack is speed. Speed, speed, speed. Pretty much all new racers can go pretty hard for 30-60 minutes (max length of a Cat 5 race, usually), they have some idea of how to use gears and such, and they can do okay in friendly group rides. Usually they can average well over what I do on a training ride, like 19-21 mph in this area (I typically go 15-17 mph). One Cat 5, one that motivated me to start looking into power meters, broke 1500 watts when he first got his PT (he actually stopped racing, but may be back in 2010). So, on paper, they seem ready for a race.

The problem is when there's a series of attacks in the race, or, more usually, one huge attack and a bunch of short counters/chases. Suddenly the speed ramps up to well into the 30s, and although the race may average a reasonable 23 mph, if a rider can't go 30-35 mph in the field, they get shelled. End of race, end of story.

It's imperative to work on speed. Yes, you can work on slightly less peaky speeds, like cruising along at 35 mph for 20 or 30 seconds. I find that increasing sprint speeds leads to an overall increase in perceived "possible" speeds. So if you can sprint, in optimal conditions, say 42-46 mph, then going 32-36 mph should be easy cheesy.

(Of course, if you think you can sprint 42-46, then you try and bridge a gap at 35 mph because, hell, you did it all the time before, reality usually intrudes pretty hard...)

Yes, speed is related to fitness, aerobic stuff, anaerobic stuff, stuff I don't know. I know my friend "Doc" from the story above probably rode 20-25 days during the Bethel Series between his first disastrous race and his final triumphant field sprint. He did maybe 5 days of sprints (15 second intervals, if you will). He did 5 or so races. He didn't ride that hard otherwise. He swept the course at Bethel like a mofo, probably doing 2 hours every Sunday morning. He is very slim, probably never broke 145 for his 6' height, so not a "sprinter" per se. Yeah, he would have increased his fitness a lot in 5 or 6 weeks. But if he hadn't increased his top speed, he'd still be getting shelled.

cdr

I've seen fast sprinters, fast tt'ers, and fast climbers rise through the ranks all about equally.. it doesnt really matter what your strong point is, as long as you have one.

Ha ha, how important is winning? I'm sure someone else already gave that response.

So I figured I might as well bump this up with my stupid question. I haven't started crits yet, I started doing TTs and tris and have been enjoying them quite a bit so I've stuck with them, but I've got some crits coming up next month. As for the question, I've increased my top speed quite a bit, from a trackstand I can hit 35 easy enough, and can max at 41 with a lead-out or after a hill, but I have no standing strength. All my speed comes from getting in the drops, hovering on the tip of the saddle, and spinning my ass off. If I try to stand and push I can, at best, not lose speed, but usually I just hit the wind and drop 5mph immediately. Any good tips for working that bit? or should I just skip it and keep doing what I'm doing?

Yeah, CDR has a good point, I dropped myself in my last Cat 5 road race when I tried to bridge a gap. The guy in front of me was doing something dumb, but I felt pretty silly about it.

So I figured I might as well bump this up with my stupid question. I haven't started crits yet, I started doing TTs and tris and have been enjoying them quite a bit so I've stuck with them, but I've got some crits coming up next month. As for the question, I've increased my top speed quite a bit, from a trackstand I can hit 35 easy enough, and can max at 41 with a lead-out or after a hill, but I have no standing strength. All my speed comes from getting in the drops, hovering on the tip of the saddle, and spinning my ass off. If I try to stand and push I can, at best, not lose speed, but usually I just hit the wind and drop 5mph immediately. Any good tips for working that bit? or should I just skip it and keep doing what I'm doing?

Sounds like you could make a teammate very happy as a leadout man.

While the speeds sound excellent for cat 4/5 if you don't punch it for at least a little everyone will just follow you. Standing is mostly just about getting the initial seperation after that do whatever fits you to keep the gap/lead.

I think it's kind of funny that all of the training advice is sprint-specific. I don't think that's what the OP needs (well, needed). If you can't sprint to 30 mph, the problem is not with your sprint, and sprint training won't address it. The problem is fitness, period. Sounds like the OP is sprinting pretty fast right now. Given that he had built up a bike "a few months" before November, when this was originally posted, I think it's pretty safe to say that nearly all of the gains in speed have been due to the massive increase in fitness from training and actually racing and developing an understanding of what it takes to compete in a TT.

For example, I have a pretty good jump, but before I started racing I couldn't sprint faster than 29-30 mph. While my jump (meaning the initial acceleration) has improved, the much bigger factor in reaching max speed is whether you're strong enough to jump from a high speed and hold that speed. The way I see it, if you're a weak rider, you need to recruit the muscle fibers you use for that acceleration much earlier. If you're a stronger rider, you're still aerobic at higher speeds, so the point where your "jump fibers" kick in is higher. The actual acceleration might be similar, but the top speed will be much higher. So my typical success in sprints (assuming I even get to them, which is questionable these days) tends to correlate with my fitness.

As for getting faster now, I don't know; it might be that sprinting simply isn't a strength. Or it might be that now is a good time to start doing specific training. Whatever. Stop worrying about it and go race those crits. See how you do before deciding what kind of training you need to do.

I'd look at aerodynamics in addition to strength/speed training. It's part of what makes Cavendish so good.

http://cdn.media.cyclingnews.com//2010/07/23/2/dv805183_600.jpg

Cav is usually one of the lowest guys out there ...if you check out some other head on shots you can see EBH of Sky also gets really low.

Two big advantages to improving your aerodynamics; the first is obvious in that it takes you less wattage to push the same speed. The second might be even bigger; it's very difficult to draft off someone low and efficient.

What kind of gearing do you guys run that sprint? My gear maxes out at 32-35mph at 120rpm (can't remember exactly and too lazy to look at calculator), I have a lot more to give but simply can't spin much faster with any control in a sprint. I have a 50 big ring and 12-25 rear cassette.

how the hell did a picture of Bennett end up on a road racing forum?

I've sprinted 36 mph in a 50x15 on the track. My middle ring on my road bike is a 42T, with a 12-23 cassette. I never use the big ring. Yes, I race in a triple.

how the hell did a picture of Bennett end up on a road racing forum?

If Bennett is the creepy guy in the 3rd post, it's because 10 wheels is a [redacted].

I didn't realize this was an old thread until I saw my posts in it. Heh.

I would respectfully disagree with the fitness statement. There are a lot of "fit" bike racers out there who don't know how to sprint.

Sprint "fitness" has more to do with power than aerobic fitness or FTP or whatnot. It doesn't help to be able to ride race distance or climb or whatever. It's all about speed. And you need to explore speed to learn it.

Last week I did the Naugatuck Crit. The guy who won? He won 4 or 5 Bethel Spring Series Cat 5 race field sprints (and I think the race for that day too). He won a really hard race at Naugatuck (3-4 race). Sprint speed is great to have. It's reasonably straightforward to pick up enough speed to place top 10 in a Cat 3-4-5 race. Positioning counts more for Cat 3s, but speed will make up for tactical blunders in the 4s and 5s. In the 3s too, if it's the right kind of sprint.

Cat 2s and up you need a lot of fitness just to be near the front coming up on the sprint, then you need massive power to actually sprint.

cdr

Good thread - I've had a few thirds, a second but still working on getting the sprint right to get a win.

Hopefully I'll remember this stuff 2 hours into a race sitting third wheel in the break with 500m left to go - and I will wait for what the other guys are going to do in front of me rather than thinking I can get an early jump and coast home (that's where I came second)...