Advocacy & Safety - Proactively curbing bicycle scofflaws

People complain endlessly about cyclists who run red lights, ride on sidewalks etc. Well, it is time to stop complaining and be proactive. The other day I was crossing the street with a walk light and just as I was getting to the other side this bicyclist runs the light by passing a van on the right in the bike lane - I didn't see him and he didn't see me. I jumped back in time but somehow my foot stuck out as I jumped back and knocked the MF over onto the pavement. I swear it was an accident :innocent:, but think about it, if I had done this deliberately ;) how could I be blamed since the cyclist was clearly at fault. Let him call the cops and claim I deliberately knocked him over :D Same with the sidewalk - I don't think an illegal sidewalk rider is going to get anywhere claiming you deliberately knocked him over. :lol: Yeah, I'm not going to publicly advocate you do this sort of thing (I never have :p) but let us consider this hypothetically, what if people start being proactive?

I would say a lot of proactive people would be putting the lives of themselves and others at risk and if you're going to be that violently insensitive to the risk you're putting people's lives in you should just get a concealed carry license and shoot people who anger you. It will be less painful for both of you.

I saw a bicyclist approaching a 4-way stop a few weeks back while driving. It was my turn to go so I let out the clutch and pressed the gas. I couldn't have predicted that she wasn't going to stop since I already entered the intersection before she crossed the line on the road at the stop sign and instead swerve in front of me and stop using her face as the brake.

As far as sidewalk riding, I watched my friend throw a, supposedly, $3000 bicycle belonging to a sidewalk rider into the San Francisco Bay. Bicyclist flagged down a police officer who told each of us to go our separate ways seeing how the rider hit my friend's GF, who we later discovered to have a concussion in addition to bruised ribs which we thought were fractured at the time.

People complain endlessly about cyclists who run red lights, ride on sidewalks etc. Well, it is time to stop complaining and be proactive.
[SNIP]
Yeah, I'm not going to publicly advocate you do this sort of thing (I never have :p) but let us consider this hypothetically, what if people start being proactive?

Even more motorists complain about the presence of of cyclists on the streets and roads, regardless of the legality of the cyclists' presence, road cycling position and technique.

I presume you wouldn't be happy with any wink-wink suggestion that such motorists take similar pro-active action against cyclists that offend their sensibilities.

With all those smilies, winkies and tongue sticker outers, I'm still trying to figure out if the OP's incident was actually accidental or deliberate.

If you want to be proactive just say something... You know, kinda like how motorists do to cyclists.

People complain endlessly about cyclists who run red lights, ride on sidewalks etc. Well, it is time to stop complaining and be proactive. The other day I was crossing the street with a walk light and just as I was getting to the other side this bicyclist runs the light by passing a van on the right in the bike lane - I didn't see him and he didn't see me. I jumped back in time but somehow my foot stuck out as I jumped back and knocked the MF over onto the pavement. I swear it was an accident :innocent:, but think about it, if I had done this deliberately ;) how could I be blamed since the cyclist was clearly at fault. Let him call the cops and claim I deliberately knocked him over :D Same with the sidewalk - I don't think an illegal sidewalk rider is going to get anywhere claiming you deliberately knocked him over. :lol: Yeah, I'm not going to publicly advocate you do this sort of thing (I never have :p) but let us consider this hypothetically, what if people start being proactive?

Hey, bra, try that on a big ole 'nacker and let us know how it turns out.
Tough guys, meet em everywhere. :rolleyes:

People complain endlessly about cyclists who run red lights, ride on sidewalks etc. Well, it is time to stop complaining and be proactive.

That's just like the war on drugs. It will never work.

This (http://cdn-write.demandstudios.com/upload//4000/000/30/0/4030.jpg) is your brain.


This (http://www.cyclelicio.us/uploaded_images/helmet-2-702681.JPG) is your brain on running the red lights

Well, it is time to stop complaining and be proactive.

Because it was you who nearly ate it this time.

-Kurt

The OP is asking our opinion on criminal and violent behavior that pretends to teach riders a lesson. It seems to me there is a story out of California that might be instructive to him.

...hypothetically, what if people start being proactive?

Hypothetically, I will immediately start fantasizing about punching every J-walking pedestrian who steps out in front of me in the middle of the block right in the kisser. My hypothetic fist is beginning to ache already.

Everybody breaks the law (hypothetically of course). It is solely YOUR responsibility to pay attention when crossing a roadway even if you have right of way. Look both ways before you cross the street - and KEEP looking for trouble all the way across.

It's SIMPLE. Hypothetically speaking anyway.

Hypothetically, I will immediately start fantasizing about punching every J-walking pedestrian who steps out in front of me in the middle of the block right in the kisser. My hypothetic fist is beginning to ache already.

:roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao:

Funniest A&S post today.

-Kurt

The OP is asking our opinion on criminal and violent behavior that pretends to teach riders a lesson. It seems to me there is a story out of California that might be instructive to him.

That wouldn't be a certain former ER doc who "wanted to teach 'em a lesson" and who was "just planning on taking their picture," would it?

I think Akohekohe should be banished from this cycling website and sent over to some car website to spew this crap.

The proper response to car drivers who complain about cyclists is to tell them that they are lazy bastards who are polluting our air and messing up our environment so the least they can do is patienttly sit their on their asses and let cyclists and pedestrians, who are not messing up our common resources, have the right of way AT ALL TIMES.

I think Akohekohe should be banished from this cycling website and sent over to some car website to spew this crap.

The proper response to car drivers who complain about cyclists is to tell them that they are lazy bastards who are polluting our air and messing up our environment so the least they can do is patienttly sit their on their asses and let cyclists and pedestrians, who are not messing up our common resources, have the right of way AT ALL TIMES.

:lol: You seem to think I might have a car.:rolleyes: But on point, I find it absolutely incomprehensible the bicyclists I know, and there are quite a few, that have no respect at all for pedestrians. At the same time they are complaining about cars they refuse to respect the rights of pedestrians. I've watched these guys ride and they are a virtual terror on the sidewalk or weaving through a crosswalk full of pedestrians. When I stop for pedestrians in the cross walk they almost always seem utterly amazed that a bicycle would yield to them. I just smile and say pedestrians have the right of way.

As far as sidewalk riding, I watched my friend throw a, supposedly, $3000 bicycle belonging to a sidewalk rider into the San Francisco Bay. Bicyclist flagged down a police officer who told each of us to go our separate ways seeing how the rider hit my friend's GF, who we later discovered to have a concussion in addition to bruised ribs which we thought were fractured at the time.

Too bad your friend lost his temper ... should have just called the cops filed a police report and now the GF could be going after the cyclist for damages.

With all those smilies, winkies and tongue sticker outers, I'm still trying to figure out if the OP's incident was actually accidental or deliberate.

If you want to be proactive just say something... You know, kinda like how motorists do to cyclists.

Well, I didn't see the guy until the very last second (as I explained, there was a van obscuring the view) so it certainly wasn't premeditated ... Yeah, I've tried, countless times to explain to sidewalk riders to get off the sidewalk. They invariably tell me they would if it wasn't for the a**hole cars on the road. They won't listen to pleas to refrain from passing granny at 15 mph with a few inches to spare and if they do kill granny they will certainly blame the cars for "forcing" them to ride on the sidewalk in the first place. Sometimes they threaten to beat me up. I don't bother anymore.

Even more motorists complain about the presence of of cyclists on the streets and roads, regardless of the legality of the cyclists' presence, road cycling position and technique.

I presume you wouldn't be happy with any wink-wink suggestion that such motorists take similar pro-active action against cyclists that offend their sensibilities.

Well, for the most part, the cyclists aren't causing severe bodily harm or death by their action to the motorists, just inconveniencing them. Bicyclists are illegally and recklessly endangering pedestrians. So no, I wouldn't suggest MV operators be "proactive", the cyclists aren't killing them ... pedestrians on the other hand ...

if you're going to be that violently insensitive to the risk you're putting people's lives in you should just get a concealed carry license and shoot people ...

I take it the violently insensitive people you are referring to are the bicyclists who pass granny on the sidewalk at 20 mph with inches to spare :rolleyes:

Bicyclists are illegally and recklessly endangering pedestrians.

Sorry, but accident and injury statistics do not back up this claim. It is a very rare event when a cyclist harms a pedestrian. O'ahu may be different, but if so, feel free to post in the Hawaii forum where you all can discuss this common situation. In the rest of the country it isn't common, and as such, we won't use it as motivation to purposefully harm a cyclist.

Sorry, but accident and injury statistics do not back up this claim. It is a very rare event when a cyclist harms a pedestrian. O'ahu may be different, but if so, feel free to post in the Hawaii forum where you all can discuss this common situation. In the rest of the country it isn't common, and as such, we won't use it as motivation to purposefully harm a cyclist.
Well, I'm not sure the statistics are available to answer this question. In general an accident doesn't make it into the traffic accident statistics if there isn't a MV involved. If a bicycle injures a pedestrian on the sidewalk it is almost certainly not going to show up as a traffic accident. The earlier post detailing the woman who got a concussion after being hit by a bicycle in San Francisco certainly isn't going to show up in any statistics and I have a feeling that is fairly typical. So where are you coming up with these statistics saying bicycle - pedestrian collisions are uncommon?

If a bicycle injures a pedestrian on the sidewalk it is almost certainly not going to show up as a traffic accident. The earlier post detailing the woman who got a concussion after being hit by a bicycle in San Francisco certainly isn't going to show up in any statistics and I have a feeling that is fairly typical. So where are you coming up with these statistics saying bicycle - pedestrian collisions are uncommon?
It is YOU who are calling for violent actions (wink-wink) to combat a problem that YOU claim is common. The burden of proof is on YOU.

Sorry, an anecdote or two and a rebuttal of demanding negative proof from skeptics won't cut it even in a high school debate.
BTW, wink-winks won't wash away the stains of a dopey proposal, sorry.

I imagine Akohekohe sees far many more cyclist putting peds at risk around the university campus, than most of us put up with. So I can understand the frustration.

Downtown Honolulu, most of the cyclist are far more careful about yielding to peds, even the surfer dudes that have their boards on the bike. Downtown, it really is the motorist that put most peds at risk and Honolulu has a very high rate of motorist killing pedestrians compared with the rest of the nation.

During the last 15 years downtown, there have only been 2 cyclist that I was tempted to bump them over. One was a guy who regurlary rode his ELECTRIC bike the wrong way on narrow sidewalk at 15 mph, to eat his lunch at the beach. He forced me to step off the sidewalk into the bushes to keep him from hitting me head on. I yelled at him that the next time, I would knock him down and have the police write him a ticket for one of the five laws he was breaking. That and him seeing me running past him at the beach most days got him to start yielding to peds. I have not seen him for several years, so maybe he finally got hit and gave up riding.

The second guy was also a wrong way, sidewalk riding, 40 year old. He almost got hit last week by a car coming out of a shopping center driveway. While he was turned around yelling at the motorist to "look both ways", as he almost plowed into me. I explained to him that he was breaking the law riding on the sidewalk and riding the wrong way. He claimed it was OK to ride the sidewalk in the city. I countered "Your wrong and you can see it almost got you hit". His response "Oh well". He rode away across the intersection, turned right to run a red light (forcing a motorist to slow to avoid him) and continue riding the wrong way on the side street sidewalk. It will not be long before he gets hit.

Most of my close calls downtown, are as a pedestrian with motorist running red lights during right turns on red. I have few conflicts while cycling on the roads downtown. One armored van got tagged with a dumbell I carry during my lunchtime run, as the driver nearly ran over my toes. He jammed on his brakes, the passenger opens his door and threatens me. I yelled, lets call the cops about it. Passenger slams the door shut and they race off. Funny how the van did not have any company markings.

...hypothetically, what if people start being proactive?

You want to be a cop? Go to the police academy. Otherwise, forget vigilante justice; you're just playing with fire.

Guys, successfull troll has been successfull, just stop feeding him and ask the mods to lock the thread. At this point it's pretty obvious he's only posting to get a rise out of EVERYONE, vehicular or pedestrian.

A vigilante pedestrian? Brilliant. A professor, huh???

Mind your own business, and don't worry about what everyone else is doing, we can take care of ourselves thankyouverymuch.

Motorists don't give a rip, if all the cyclists obeyed all the traffic laws all the time they would still complain.

And if you think bicyclists are even close to being a major source of endangerment to pedestrians, you've got your head up your ass. How many peds are killed or injured each year by cyclists as compared to by motorists?

:rolleyes:

It is YOU who are calling for violent actions (wink-wink) to combat a problem that YOU claim is common. The burden of proof is on YOU.

Sorry, an anecdote or two and a rebuttal of demanding negative proof from skeptics won't cut it even in a high school debate.
BTW, wink-winks won't wash away the stains of a dopey proposal, sorry.

Come out and stand by my office in front of the Ferry Building in San Francisco for a day and see how many bicyclists play Frogger with pedestrians on a daily basis in the crosswalk in front and on the sidewalk. I've have seen zero bicyclists stop at red lights here and yield ROW for any pedestrian when bicyclist has red light. There could be over 300 people on a 3 lane wide section of crosswalk about 50 ft wide and bicyclists do not hesitate to work themselves through the crowd. I don't have statistics for you, but you are welcome to come out and watch.

Come out and stand by my office in front of the Ferry Building in San Francisco for a day and see how many bicyclists play Frogger with pedestrians on a daily basis in the crosswalk in front and on the sidewalk. I've have seen zero bicyclists stop at red lights here and yield ROW for any pedestrian when bicyclist has red light. There could be over 300 people on a 3 lane wide section of crosswalk about 50 ft wide and bicyclists do not hesitate to work themselves through the crowd. I don't have statistics for you, but you are welcome to come out and watch.

The cyclists "work themselves through the crowd"; is that what you call Frogger? BFD. Or is that supposed to be the same as the over-the top rhetoric of knocking Grandmas down en masse as you and the OP are pitching??

Welcome back Don Quixote - moved to Hawaii, did you?

-Kurt

Ok, I have been able to find some statistics on Bicycle - Pedestrian Collisions. There is not a lot of research out there. As I mentioned in a previous post I think there are many reasons why they are under-reported particularly in the United State because we tend to count traffic accidents only when the involve pedestrians. I did find a good article on the subject however, M. Graw and H.G. König "Fatal pedestrian-bicycle collisions", Forensic Science International 126 (2002) 241-247. This study used German data and the German system is designed to specifically collect such data. The data in the article is covers 1997 to 1999. During that three year period there were 71,278 collisions involving two people in total including a pedestrian. Of these a cyclist was found at fault in 6,980. That is 10% of all the collisions involving to pedestrians in Germany during that three year period were caused by cyclists. Further, another German study cite in this article, H. Hautzinger, H. Du¨rholt, E. Ho¨rnstein, B. Tassaux-Becker, Dunkelziffer bei Unfa¨llen mit Personenschaden, Berichte der Bundesanstalt fu¨ r Straßenwesen, Unterreihe Mensch und Sicherheit, Vol. M 13, Wirtschaftsverlag NW Bremerhaven, 1993, found that 75% of accidents involving non-motorized road users went unreported, while almost all collisions involving MVs are as required by law. These two statistics, taken together, indicates that bicycle - pedestrian collisions account for an amazing 40% of pedestrian collisions and injuries during those three years in Germany.

When is someone going to proactively curb the nuts off this forum?

-Kurt

These two statistics, taken together, indicates that bicycle - pedestrian collisions account for an amazing 40% of pedestrian collisions and injuries during those three years in Germany.

They show nothing of the sort. If you are really a professor, I fear for your students. You have magically concluded that all 75% of unreported collisions were bike-pedestrian collisions while they just as likely could have been pedestrian-pedestrian, or shopping cart-pedestrian, or babby-buggy-pedestrian or whatever. And there is nothing that tells us that those collisions caused injuries and so your 40% of injuries claim is similarly faulty. A thinking person would assume that the main reason collisions go unreported is that no one got hurt and it wasn't worth reporting.

San Francisco keeps very good stats on pedestrian deaths: Not one from a bicycle, dozens by cars and buses every year.

They show nothing of the sort. If you are really a professor, I fear for your students. You have magically concluded that all 75% of unreported collisions were bike-pedestrian collisions while they just as likely could have been pedestrian-pedestrian, or shopping cart-pedestrian, or babby-buggy-pedestrian or whatever. And there is nothing that tells us that those collisions caused injuries and so your 40% of injuries claim is similarly faulty. A thinking person would assume that the main reason collisions go unreported is that no one got hurt and it wasn't worth reporting.

A most logical deduction or the injuries (if any) were so minor as not to be worth reporting. A good example is several years ago while I was walking down the sidewalk to one of my favorite local seafood restaurants I stopped to talk with a guy who was walking his dog. When the dog lunged for me and tried to turn my right knee into a chew toy. Fortunately the owner had his dog on a leash albeit a retractable leash, but it was still leashed. Instead of running like most would do I just calmly stepped back, continued talking for a couple of more minutes and went on my way. The dog didn't break my skin or even tear my jeans. So I didn't report it.

Now had it broken the skin that would have been a different story, and yes I would have reported it.


San Francisco keeps very good stats on pedestrian deaths: Not one from a bicycle, dozens by cars and buses every year.

Come out and stand by my office in front of the Ferry Building in San Francisco for a day and see how many bicyclists play Frogger with pedestrians on a daily basis in the crosswalk in front and on the sidewalk. I've have seen zero bicyclists stop at red lights here and yield ROW for any pedestrian when bicyclist has red light. There could be over 300 people on a 3 lane wide section of crosswalk about 50 ft wide and bicyclists do not hesitate to work themselves through the crowd. I don't have statistics for you, but you are welcome to come out and watch.

Data is not the plural of anecdote.

When is someone going to proactively curb the nuts off this forum?

-Kurt
I thought the purpose of the Vehicular Cycling sub forum was to contain the rants and wink-wink "education" schemes of at least the most nutty zealots.

These two statistics, taken together, indicates that bicycle - pedestrian collisions account for an amazing 40% of pedestrian collisions and injuries during those three years in Germany.

now why don't you tell us how significant the pedestrian injuries attributed to bicyclists are compared to those attributed to motorists.

don't forget to include the pull-it-out-of-your-butt statistical analysis techniques.

maybe you should publish the results, professor!

:roflmao:

First it was the bike lane...then in a late post you talk about a sidewalk???? I know the Van was there but wow. Pay attention. And work on your foot work.

For Hawaii, the law allows and cops do not want you to report any collision causing less than $3,000. Even if a motorist totaled your $6,000 bike, a cop would just report the damage as <$3,000 so they do not have to file a formal report. Under $3,000 they just fill out a carbon paper form with each others insurance info and have a copy to each party - no other report is made, no tickets, no investigation, nothing for the innocent victim to give their insurance company. I and my insurance company find the practice pretty disgusting.

This law/policy ensures bad statistics.

First it was the bike lane...then in a late post you talk about a sidewalk???? I know the Van was there but wow. Pay attention. And work on your foot work.Try a little reading comprehension.

Try a little reading comprehension.

I did...bike lane first post....then a later post it was a side walk..........Which is it???


But he still needs to work on his footwork!!!

^^
He is talking about different occasions in the later post, in response to some other comment.

Well, I didn't see the guy until the very last second (as I explained, there was a van obscuring the view) so it certainly wasn't premeditated ... Yeah, I've tried, countless times to explain to sidewalk riders to get off the sidewalk. They invariably tell me they would if it wasn't for the a**hole cars on the road. They won't listen to pleas to refrain from passing granny at 15 mph with a few inches to spare and if they do kill granny they will certainly blame the cars for "forcing" them to ride on the sidewalk in the first place. Sometimes they threaten to beat me up. I don't bother anymore.



This is where i got confused....You talk about sidewalk riding here...but the original post was a bike lane. If the guy was in a bike lane then why is sidewalk riding an issue??? To this response?

What is up with some of you people? Do you really need to insult people just because you disagree with them. Here are some comments:
"If you are really a professor, I fear for your students.
When is someone going to proactively curb the nuts off this forum?
don't forget to include the pull-it-out-of-your-butt statistical analysis techniques."

Is it too much to ask for a little civility? Read my posts, I haven't insulted or attacked anyone on the forum yet people are attacking me and in a rather juvenile fashion.

By the way, so far I'm the only one to provide any real data from a reliable peer reviewed scientific publication. I did provide a complete citation to the article so you could look things up for yourself if you don't like my take on the data: the article is available online. I was actually a bit surprised myself to see that the percent of reported collisions involving a pedestrian and a bicycle was as high as 10%. I would have reported it if it was less. As far as the 75% goes here is what the article says "According to a comprehensive study carried out in Germany, it was found that around 75% of accidents involving nonmotorised road-users are not reported." Without a doubt this means the 10% is higher - you can argue all you want about whether that makes the 10% 40% but it is certainly more than 10%. People can disagree on this but even if you go with the 10% that still seems significant to me.

Ok, on to the severity question. The article does classify the injuries into minor and severe although I'm not sure what the definition is of these. So the injuries from those statistics about 1 in 25 pedestrians that are severely injured in an accident were hit by a bicycle. So, it goes from 1:10 for all injuries to 1:25 for serious injuries and for fatalities it is about 1:65. That is one in 65 pedestrians killed in traffic accidents are killed by bicycles. Maybe some of you think this is so minor it should be ignored, maybe not. This data isn't adjusted for the relative miles driven by cars versus bicycles so that makes it hard to calculate the relative risk for say pedestrians killed per mile driven for a bicycle versus a car. Since pedestrians and bicycles often share the same space on the road we can expect that per mile there would be more collisions of bicycles with pedestrians than cars but I'm sure there are people on THIS forum that would take issue with that.

On another point, anecdotal evidence is still evidence. Shadowex3 criticizes ekincam's observations about bicyclist's behavior at a specific location that he is very familiar with. This is very good evidence through first person observation that bicyclists behave badly re: pedestrians at that location. It seems some people only want to use this "anecdotal evidence is not evidence" argument against people they disagree with when there are much more egregious examples by people they agree with, for example Digital_Cowboy's story about the minor dog bite.

In any case, bicycles do kill pedestrians and the German statistics indicate it is usually the bicyclist's fault. These accidents are largely preventable and the result of bad bicyclist behavior. People often want to argue that bicycles are putting only themselves at risk when they run red lights, stop signs, ride on sidewalks etc. but this is simply not the case. Bicyclists seem to often have the attitude that the only road users that matter are them and cars. Like the cyclist that bounced off my foot, he ran a red light without even slowing down at a t-intersection while he was in a bike lane because there was no risk he would be hit by a MV but completely ignored the possibility of pedestrians. I even see bicyclists that don't ordinarily run red lights do it in this situation because, after all, they have their own through lane separate from the MV lane so it is "safe" to do so.

I like how desperate you're getting to distract people from the fact that your original post was literally advocating nothing short of attempted murder. If you're such an expert on these sort of things you should not the kind of catastrophic injury that can be caused by deliberately knocking a rider off of his bicycle.

I love your post brumskee! To the point and too funny!

[...] I did provide a complete citation to the article so you could look things up for yourself if you don't like my take on the data: the article is available online. [...] "...it was found that around 75% of accidents involving nonmotorised road-users are not reported." Without a doubt this means the 10% is higher - you can argue all you want about whether that makes the 10% 40% but it is certainly more than 10%. .[...]

That does not follow from the available information.

I found the abstract to this article "Fatal Pedestrian-Bicycle Collisions," but can't locate any full-text copies on the internets. Do you have a link?

The abstract says the report is based on three (3) collisions, and mentions nothing about the overall stats for ped-bicycle collision in that country.

I love your post brumskee! To the point and too funny!

I,m glad you enjoyed it. However, it was not meant to be funny. I'm just telling the truth.

I fail to see how this is advocating for bicycles. There are way too many people in A&S who hate too many other cyclists. We're a tiny group and we're splitting ourselves over stop lights?

Let's calm down, roll our eyes and move on. There are significant dangers to cyclists and pedestrians on the roadways and they're not on two wheels.

On another point, anecdotal evidence is still evidence. Shadowex3 criticizes ekincam's observations about bicyclist's behavior at a specific location that he is very familiar with. This is very good evidence through first person observation that bicyclists behave badly re: pedestrians at that location. It seems some people only want to use this "anecdotal evidence is not evidence" argument against people they disagree with when there are much more egregious examples by people they agree with, for example Digital_Cowboy's story about the minor dog bite.


Anecdotal evidence is evidence with no context and no possible method of measure. It's as unscientific as it can get. And so, in a rational attempt to quantify something it's not evidence.

I fail to see how this is advocating for bicycles. There are way too many people in A&S who hate too many other cyclists. We're a tiny group and we're splitting ourselves over stop lights?

Let's calm down, roll our eyes and move on. There are significant dangers to cyclists and pedestrians on the roadways and they're not on two wheels.
Quite true. I would add that self appointed experts in educating/reeducating cyclists by hook or crook take their schemes to the Vehicular Cycling sub forum. A fondness for Vehicular Cycling zealotry seems to be the one constant among those who want to educate/harass all cyclists who don't meet their lofty "standards."