Folding Bikes - Which full suspension folder should I buy?

Last week I rode SesameCrunch TSR30? Moultons (thanks SC!) and now I appreciate the benefits of full suspension on small wheel bikes.

What other good FS 20” folding/separable bikes are available in the US in addition to the Moultons?

Having a large gear range is a big plus for me (my current bike has SRAM DD 2x9 and I use the entire range).

I typically ride on roads (some of them around here are very rough), trails, and rarely unpaved trails. I mostly use the bike for 20-50mile recreational rides, not for cummuting, so as long as it fits the trunk of my car it should be fine folding wise.

Thanks,

Kam

downtube

downtube.

Downtube

downtube.

Can the drive train be upgraded to Dual Drive or triple chain ring?

Kam

+100 on Downtube!
I'm still regretting I sold mine.

If $$ is no object, I'll recommend the Birdy or Airnimal.

I think both Dahon and Xtoor Swift sells FD attachments. ' not sure if it will work with the DT FS, though.

Birdy

I don't have any personal experience with full suspension folders, but here are the ones that I have noticed with good reviews, in order by price...

Downtube 9FS (derailleur) or 8FH (internal)
Dahon Jetstream P8
GoBike (may be difficult to find)
Birdy (all models)
Airnimal Rhino
Moulton (of course)

Again... I have no direct experience with any of these, but that should at least get you started on your search. Good luck. :-)

That said, of that list, my fave is the Dahon Jetstream. It really looks the business.
--sam

Bear in mind the Birdy is not 20".

Another 20" FS folder is the Pacific Reach. But again that is 451mm so a different 20".

I tend to favour the Dahon Jetstream as well. Looks quite sturdy; they placed extra welds & reinforcements at all the weak spots.

The Downtube FS is of course very versatile; who remembers the Mauna Kea bike? (there is a thread by that name.)

Bear in mind the Birdy is not 20".

Another 20" FS folder is the Pacific Reach. But again that is 451mm so a different 20".

Is there a down side for the 451 other than the slightly larger size? (e.g. tire and tube availability)

Thanks,

Kam

Is there a down side for the 451 other than the slightly larger size? (e.g. tire and tube availability)

Thanks,

Kam

the lack of tire choice and availability is the problem. Personally i like the slightly larger size.

The Downtube FS is a great value for the price, but not in the same league as the Moulton or Kamtsa's current ride, a Bike Friday NWT. The Downtube is much heavier, the components are not in the same league, the front suspension is not that great. I had one, and I liked it, but it is not as refined. It's more of a starter bike.

I think the Reach is worth a good comparison test ride.

How about Big Apples? As suspension they are unbeatable. And a Thudbuster might also be worth considering...

I know that you can get a Bike Friday with a front suspension ... pocket gnu. And in addition to Big Apples, there are a few street BMX tires -- kevlar bead too! -- that have a lot of volume.

Can a Birdy fit 20" wheels? I know it comes with ERTO 355. Every once in a while I hear about a Birdy with ERTO 406 wheels, but don't see one regularly offered.

How about Big Apples? As suspension they are unbeatable. And a Thudbuster might also be worth considering...

Last week I put back the Marathons (used to be Kojaks with 90psi) but have not had the chance to ride it. Once I test rode a Dahon with Big Apple. It was heavy and sluggish and I attributed it to the tires but maybe I should give BA a second chance. As for the thudbuster, I am using one and last week I changed one of the elastometers to a softer one. I could not give it a real good test yet.


I know that you can get a Bike Friday with a front suspension ... pocket gnu. And in addition to Big Apples, there are a few street BMX tires -- kevlar bead too! -- that have a lot of volume.

Can a Birdy fit 20" wheels? I know it comes with ERTO 355. Every once in a while I hear about a Birdy with ERTO 406 wheels, but don't see one regularly offered.

I could not find the Pocket Gnu on the BF site but they have the Air Glide http://community.bikefriday.com/airglide . Anybody knows how ride quality of the AG compares with a Moulton (especially or rough roads)?

As for the wheel size, when I said that I want 20" wheel I just assumed that they ride better from smaller wheels. Actually I don't care if the wheel is smaller than 406 if the ride quality is good.

Thanks,

Kam

Certainly my Birdy gives a very soft ride. It is just a matter of smoothing out the sharpness in the road surface. But even on the Birdy it makes a difference what I pump the tyres to. Very hard say 100psi, the suspension does its work but the entire frame experiences those high frequency hits. A bit softer and it's just smoothness all the way. I think there is way too much emphasis on running hard tyres these days.

You might give the fatter Primo Comets a go too. And pump to a judicious pressure.

The extra weight of tyres like BAs does make the ride a little less responsive, that's why I've been keeping an eye out for lightweight folding tyres. There's new folding Primo Comets at 2.2 x 20 which weigh something close to 400 grams, and Maxxis Grifters that are cheap and light. Sometime in 2010 there'll be the Liteskin BAs.

But part of the impression of sluggishness is purely down to the fact that you're not feeling the high-frequency vibrations that feel, er, crisp.

But part of the impression of sluggishness is purely down to the fact that you're not feeling the high-frequency vibrations that feel, er, crisp.
+1 !

The Pocket Gnu is not on Bike Friday's website, but at my last inquiry they were still available.

I agree with the notions about Big Apples and other fat tires, they provide excellent suspension of their own.

The Pocket Gnu is not on Bike Friday's website, but at my last inquiry they were still available.

I agree with the notions about Big Apples and other fat tires, they provide excellent suspension of their own.

True enough. Having met the OP, though, he plans rides of 30 to 50 miles. Personally, I would prefer not to
do rides like that with 2.25 tires at 60 psi. Not as much fun.

True enough. Having met the OP, though, he plans rides of 30 to 50 miles. Personally, I would prefer not to
do rides like that with 2.25 tires at 60 psi. Not as much fun.
If those 30-50 miles are partially on dirt tracks with some sandy spots and so on, then narrow ones would be even less fun. :)

If those 30-50 miles are partially on dirt tracks with some sandy spots and so on, then narrow ones would be even less fun. :)

Mostly on paved roads. With my Kojaks /90psi I never had significant traction issues except for one time on a steep unpaved heel where I pedaled forward and was sliding backward. I had to walk the rest of that hill ;-)

However, many paved roads around here are very bad. This is at least how it feels with small wheels, skinny tires, high pressure, and no suspension.

Test riding the Moulton gave me a new perspective. When I mounted the bike my first reaction what that it has a flat in the front wheel because of the front suspension gave in. However when I rode it over unpaved surfaces and a paved stone surfaces, it handled very well without those sharp jolts each time you hit a bump. The Moulton had skinny tires and no thudbuster.

I presume that the experience is similar with other good quality small wheel full suspension bikes.

Kam

If you're looking at Downtube, best to go with the 9FS over the 8FS which is said to be the weakest bike in the lineup.

Thanks everybody for the info. I picked today a used black TSR27 in good condition.

The frame is amazingly stiff (good) and the front suspension is very soft (very good). The rear suspension however is harder than I would like to have. I will take it this week for a long ride to determine if I need to add suspension in the back (thudbuster, springy brooks, etc). The bike came with Marathon tires. I may switch them later to Kojak, depending on the ride quality.

Other mods that I consider are smaller chain ring (e.g. 40T, as I have on my NWT) GP1 grips, handlebar horns, and a rack to install for special occasions.

Kam

Congratulations! Let's see some pictures!

Remember that the weight distribution on a bike is typically 60:40 back:front. So the rear suspension needs to be stiffer than the front to yield a matched result.

Bear in mind...

...no Moulton is a folding bike. Some, but not all, have frame joins for disassembly.

Best,
tcs

Remember that the weight distribution on a bike is typically 60:40 back:front. So the rear suspension needs to be stiffer than the front to yield a matched result.

I cannot quantify it but the front is much softer than the rear. I ended up installing a Kojak in the front and a Scorcher in the back (using your no tool method) but am yet to test ride it. My plan is to run the Kojak at ~90psi (since I have ample suspension in the front) and the Scorcher at ~50-60psi (I am trying to avoid Thudbuster for simplicity). I will fine tune the configuration as I go.

Kam

You are right of course: The front is quite squishy, on my APB as well. A stiffer spring will make it stiffer but I don't know of the rear can be adjusted by replacing the rubber block.

You are right of course: The front is quite squishy, on my APB as well. A stiffer spring will make it stiffer but I don't know of the rear can be adjusted by replacing the rubber block.

When I compare the TSR to the other Moutlon (pic below), the TSR's rear suspension has a leverage of about x2 while the other Moulton has a leverage of about X5 (by leverage I mean the vertical travel of the wheel divided by the delta length of the elasometer). My intuition tells me that compressed elastometer bases suspension that have higher leverage can be made softer because of the larger wheel travel.

Does this make any sense?

Kam


130161

Congratulations! Let's see some pictures!

Here they are, after few minor mods. Anybody knows what is that little cylindrical thing at the end of the front brake noodle?

Kam

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Here they are, after few minor mods. Anybody knows what is that little cylindrical thing at the end of the front brake noodle?


A bit of squishy housing replacement that prevents you from applying too much power to the front brakes. The idea is that it should prevent you from locking up the front wheel in a panic.

A bit of squishy housing replacement that prevents you from applying too much power to the front brakes. The idea is that it should prevent you from locking up the front wheel in a panic.

Thanks sqynt. Does it have a name? Is it sold separately or with the noodle? Can it be adjusted?

Kam

Nice bike. Did you get the separable model?

Thanks sqynt. Does it have a name? Is it sold separately or with the noodle? Can it be adjusted?

AFAIK, all are part of the noodle, and none are adjustable. Google links:

* Tektro brake modulator (http://www.google.com/products?q=Tektro+brake+modulator&hl=en&aq=f)
* Shimano brake modulator (http://www.google.com/products?q=Shimano+brake+modulator&hl=en&aq=f)

Nice bike. Did you get the separable model?

Yes. It is a must for me since I store the bike in the trunk of my car.

BTW, I also remove the front wheel each time since the front wheel and the handler bar are perpendicular to each other and take a lot of space that way.

Kam

AFAIK, all are part of the noodle, and none are adjustable. Google links:

* Tektro brake modulator (http://www.google.com/products?q=Tektro+brake+modulator&hl=en&aq=f)
* Shimano brake modulator (http://www.google.com/products?q=Shimano+brake+modulator&hl=en&aq=f)

Ok, modulator. Google Search does not help much if you don't know the right word ;-)

Thanks sqynt,

Kam

AFAIK, all are part of the noodle, and none are adjustable. Google links:

* Tektro brake modulator (http://www.google.com/products?q=Tektro+brake+modulator&hl=en&aq=f)
* Shimano brake modulator (http://www.google.com/products?q=Shimano+brake+modulator&hl=en&aq=f)

You forgot the:

* Illudium Q 36 Explosive Space Modulator (http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u66/FYIAgain/MarvSpaceModulator.jpg)

V brakes arrived and people were going over the handlebars ...... there was a loud scream especially in Europe to make the front v brakes less powerfull .... and hence the modulator was born ....
take it out an have a much better stronger brake and you save some weight as well

Thor

You might consider a front suspension bike with rigid rear, and a THUDBUSTER seatpost from Cane Creek.

I too am a Downtube Full Suspension owner, and I've got a very warm spot in my heart for them. But I like to get out of the saddle, and having that rear suspension makes for a less stable honker down.

I've also got a Swift with a Thudbuster. If I wanna go fast, or will be spending a lot of time on hilly terrain I'll probably be on the Swift. For a leisurely ride to the grocery, the Downtube is sometimes the choice.

The Downtube Full Suspension bikes do look really cool, but your overall riding needs might suggest a rigid rear end as a option.

Cane Creek makes a variety of lengths and diamaters, so check for availability if you consider the option. They are available from Cane Creek, Dahon, Swift, and sometimes on eBay.

You probably can't go wrong either way.

I missed your post on getting a TSR. VERY PROUD of you. A superb choice.

I missed your post on getting a TSR. VERY PROUD of you. A superb choice.

I am trying to see if I can have decent ride with the TSR stock suspension alone, without a Thudbuster (I have one on my NWT but it has different diameter than the TSR).

So far it looks good. Last week I went to a 35miles ride, mostly of rough roads and it went very well. I plan to do few longer rides before making a decision but so far it seems that the suspension does the job for me.

Kam

I cannot quantify it but the front is much softer than the rear. I ended up installing a Kojak in the front and a Scorcher in the back (using your no tool method) but am yet to test ride it. My plan is to run the Kojak at ~90psi (since I have ample suspension in the front) and the Scorcher at ~50-60psi (I am trying to avoid Thudbuster for simplicity). I will fine tune the configuration as I go. Kam

Few things I learned about the Moulton suspension since then:

Front Suspension:

1. The front suspension as delivered is very mushy. However tightening the 4 linkage nuts (two on each side) makes the suspension harder by increasing the damping. After some trial an error I realized that the I actually like the original mushy setting.

2. Kamoya has a nice accessory for the front suspension. http://kamoya.info/7_26.html It is a hollow cylindrical elastomer with a cut along its back side (it has a C like profile when looked from the top) a cute leather handle. When you clip it on the front suspension adjustment barrel it limits the travel of the front suspension to few mm until it hits the elastomer which provides additional resistance. The accessory can be mounted and removed in few seconds (no tools required) so you can adjust the bike to the riding conditions.

Rear suspension:

Kayoma http://kamoya.info/7_25.html makes an after market ring for the stock rear suspension elastomer which replaces the stock ring. It also includes a soft clear elastomer that seats between the ring and the stock elastomer (that big rubber shape ball). The soft elastomer increases significantly the travel of the rear suspension and soften the ride (40% of my ride is on rough surfaces and I don't use a Thudbaster).

Overall I am very happy with my TSR. It is fine tuned to my needs, performs very well on road, rough trail and even dirt, and fits in my small car. I wish though that it would be lighter (weight wise, not color).

Kam

Thanks for the feedback. I liked what I saw at the Kamoya website. Gave me some ideas...

Hi
I m late but ,I have this seatpost http://www.canecreek.com/component-seatposts on my BF,and maybe I will get this fork http://www.german-a.de/de/kilo.html

HP Velotechnik Grasshopper FX