Singlespeed & Fixed Gear - Hypothetcially speaking...

If you were to get a set of Sun M13s, would you go for 32 or 36 spokes? Do 4 spokes really make that much of a difference?

They will make it 4 spokes stronger and your choice of hubs will be narrowed slightly. I would get the 32h rims just for the hub selection.

My reason for asking is that I put a set of M13s/Formulas from VeloMine on my Xmas list (my wife rules) and didn't realize they came built up both ways. I was thinking 32 as well.

I see. Velo Mine wheels are hand built, correct? If that's true I'm pretty sure 32 will be plenty enough. I have handbuilt Velocity rims (Fusion front, radial laced/DeepV rear, 3x) that take a 220-lb man bombing off of curbs all the time, and have not been touched in any way since they were bought in February. Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't Sun rims also known for being sturdy?

If you can have it either way, with no consequence, I'd do the 36. Yeah, it's only 4 spokes stronger, but sometimes that's just enough.

When you start getting into 40 and up, then hub and rim selection is so limited there is a major disadvantage.

aren't Sun rims also known for being sturdy?

They are. That's why I wasn't sure which way to go (or if would even really matter all that much). My scale teeters between 190-200 lbs and while the roads aren't necessarily bad in the little beach town I reside in, I definitely like my wheels to be as strong as they can be.

At least the most stressful thing in my life at the moment is deciding whether or not I really need those four spokes...

Well if it's a matter of the roads I'd just get some 25 or 28c tires with a high TPI casing. Smoove sailing for sure.

32 is penty strong enough and weight really wont manner so in the end i think it comes down to looks.

3x front, stick to 32

radial front, go 36

real world there wont be any other differeance...

those 4 spokes won't matter for you. I rode a 28 rear wheel for a long time at 150lbs doing tricks and all that with no issues. The way wheels are built these days, and with spokes being stronger than ever, you can ride less of em just fine.
I have never heard of somebody riding a 16 spoke campy shamal having an issue.

Pick what hub you want then snag the rim that matches.

If the hub comes in either drilling- go with the 36 holes- if you ever go to sell the bike you can make note of how super-ultra-mega strong the wheels are because of the extra spokes.

It's not a matter of picking hubs...they come built up with Formulas. I...I mean Santa Claus...is going with 36. I know strength-wise there really won't be much difference. I'm building up a porteur-inspired bike and think the 36s will look pretty classic.

+1 for the classic look. how will they be laced?

Nothing fancy. Standard 3X works fine for me.

Any reason you chose the M13's vs the (seemingly) more popular CR-18's?

"I definitely like my wheels to be as strong as they can be"

That says 36 right there. I'm just waiting to order my spokes for my Ambrosio Excellights to IRO hubs. I'm only 145-155lbs, but then I carry a laptop everyday and other crap, and on city streets..... unless making a race wheel I'll go with a 36 every time.

Any reason you chose the M13's vs the (seemingly) more popular CR-18's?

I was torn on that too, but figure I'll go with the M13s because I prefer 23-25mm tires and they're a few mm thinner than CR18s. Is that dumb? Would I be better off with CR18s?

what spokes are you using? spokes can make or break the wheels. no matter how great hubs or rims you have, bad spokes will give you bad wheels.

That's ridiculous. Spokes are cold formed wires, nothing more. Sure, a crappy spoke may break at the J-bend under extreme circumstances, but assuming they're tensioned right, a "bad" spoke does not equate to a bad wheel.

I think you're confused with bladed, butted, dbl butted, etc.

OP, if you have the option of a 3x 36h setup, go for it. The nominal weight difference isn't really comparable to the increase in strength you'll get.

Right on Yo! Thanks. I'm not too concerned with weight here so yeah, 36 is where I'm headed. Now I'm busy rethinking CR18s over M13s!

I was torn on that too, but figure I'll go with the M13s because I prefer 23-25mm tires and they're a few mm thinner than CR18s. Is that dumb? Would I be better off with CR18s?

I think M13's should be perfectly fine for your build. I'm just partial to the CR-18's because I'm a fatty so I like bigger tires (28mm minimum).

I'm building up a porteur-inspired bike and think the 36s will look pretty classic.

Definitely 36 if it's going to be a load carrying bike.

Im running a Sun CR18 rim, DT Champion 2.0 spokes, formula hubs laced 3X with 36h drilling. They are not that heavy and feel super solid. Id say get the 36h.

What size tires are you running on those Deshi? Will CR18s work with 23s?

Definitely 36 if it's going to be a load carrying bike.

It won't be so much heavy load-carrying, but have a bit of classic porteur style.

Will CR18s work with 23s?

I believe you _can_ run 23's but if you are purchasing new tires anyway you might stick with 25's or greater. The CR-18's internal diameter is 17.5mm so they were intended for use with wider tires.

That's ridiculous. Spokes are cold formed wires, nothing more. Sure, a crappy spoke may break at the J-bend under extreme circumstances, but assuming they're tensioned right, a "bad" spoke does not equate to a bad wheel.


If you read books on wheel building like "The Bicycle Wheel" by "Jobst Brandt" or take a wheelbuilding class, out of all three components (the hubs, rims, and spokes), the spokes are the most important. Cheap spokes do not hold tension as well and are prone to rust. Will bend easily, etc. As long as you go stainless steel, you should be okay. they are even better than the light carbon fiber ones since they wont break as easily.

Also, according to Sheldon Brown (http://www.sheldonbrown.com/wheelbuild.html)

"Cheap wheels are built with chrome-plated ("UCP")or zinc-plated ("galvanized") carbon-steel spokes, which are not as strong, and are prone to rust."

He also has a good piece on the difference between spoke counts. The weights arent a big difference between spoke counts. lower spoke counts require heavier rims, so the weight savings is nominal.

I don't know if spokes are the MOST important. But i know that they are very important.

I've read The Bicycle Wheel by Jobst Brandt, what of it?

If you were to get a set of Sun M13s, would you go for 32 or 36 spokes? Do 4 spokes really make that much of a difference?

I would use 36 spokes for that rim or any other similar shallow cross-section rim. Shallow rimmed wheels are traditionally built with 36 spokes for a good reason...durability.

Deeper rims not only produce laterally stiffer wheels, they are vertically stiffer and distribute your weight through a larger portion of the rim, thus reducing spoke fatigue. This is why shallow cross-section rim wheels tend to be built with high spokes counts (to reduce fatigue and prevent spoke breakage) and why newer deeper rim wheels can have dramatically fewer spokes and run higher spoke tension.

I don't know how rough your ride, but you can probably get away with 32 spokes, but you run a greater risk of premature spoke breakage. If you were to use a deeper rim, such as a Deep V or Kinlin 30mm, you could go as low as (24-28) spokes and still have a very stiff durable wheel.


Edit: while we are on the subject of durability, use double butted spokes if at all possible. DB spokes are not only lighter, then are more fatigue resistant. Your wheel will be lighter and last longer...its a rare instance of having your cake and eating it too.

Thanks mihlbach... for the info and for not tearing me a new ******* like I've seen you do to some others recently.

The set I'm getting comes pre-built from VeloMine with typical DT stainless spokes (which is fine with me). I've settled on 36 spoke M13s, as the CR18s are most likely wider than I'm looking for.
:D

I believe you _can_ run 23's but if you are purchasing new tires anyway you might stick with 25's or greater. The CR-18's internal diameter is 17.5mm so they were intended for use with wider tires.

Wow...17.5 id? That's pretty wide.

What size tires are you running on those Deshi? Will CR18s work with 23s?
Yes, but not very well. That's what I currently have on the front of my touring bike and the rim certainly looks a little too wide for the tire. (I had a 35 mm on there but when I put on the fender for winter it wouldn't fit so I switched back to a 23mm I had lying around.)

I'd stick with the M13 rim for your use.

That's what I thought. Thanks everyone!

Stuff like this is why I continue to love BikeForums.

Thanks mihlbach... for the info and for not tearing me a new ******* like I've seen you do to some others recently.

The set I'm getting comes pre-built from VeloMine with typical DT stainless spokes (which is fine with me). I've settled on 36 spoke M13s, as the CR18s are most likely wider than I'm looking for.
:D

x2 great info mihlbach


Scrodzilla: sounds like a great choice and i 2nd the DB spoke comment. cant wait to see pictures!

36. Why not, if you can choose?

Yeah...I just originally thought they only came 32 and figured I'd get the consensus before my wife went ahead and ordered them.

What size tires are you running on those Deshi? Will CR18s work with 23s?

Sorry for the late reply. I am running 35c Nokian studded winter tires and 32c Kenda's in the summer. They would fit a 25c just fine but I would not go smaller.

No prob, Deshi. I figured 25s were as small as I could go. I went with the 36-spoke M13s...my wife ordered them and they showed up this afternoon. I can't techincally have them until Xmas but I've got a pair of 23c Panaracer Pasela TGs waiting for them to be unwrapped.

36

Lovin' the old avatar Scrod!

I'm off topic?
I'm not off topic.
No, you're off topic!!
You stfu!
I will **** you up!!!

...I run 36 spokes. :)

Yeah...it was too weird with a different avatar. I couldn't find any of my older posts!

I managed to crack the box open and sneak a peek at my wheelset. I'm stoked.