Utility Cycling - Expanding in Cargo cycle manufacturing

OK,

One or two of you here on Bike forums are already aware that during the new year I am expanding my current small business into the manufacture of Cargo Cycles; so I would appreciate a little input from you guys.

Currently I have a one man, on-site mechanical engineering business, travelling to the clients' premises and undertaking; welding and fabrication, the restoration of vintage farm machinery to show condition, along with specialist mechanical and hydraulic repairs, installations, and short batch run repeatable pipe bending, which also includes the occosional contract in the North Sea's Off-Shore energy fields, etc.

However, even during this dire economic recession I have reached an expand or die situation; too much work for me to undertake and complete alone, but not exactly enough for two us. The plan is to expand by taking on my 22 year old son, to train him up and help me out a little in my trade, for him to also take on and manage the Cargo-Cycles side of things and the day to day administration of my side of things. I have already secured the rights to manufactiure from the official receivers of one failed UK Cargo cycle company, and the exclusive licence to manfacturer and sell an under marketed cargo cycle conversion kit. I also have on the drawing board, and in the prototype fabrication stages a modular set of mix and match fabrications that can be picked off the shelf to assemble; up right Delta and recumberant Tadpole cargo trikes, including a front plus rear loader up right quad, and rear loader recumberant quad. Wherever possible, optimisation will be our key, with standard componants (albeit several bespoke and unique to our products) across the range: frames and fabrications, Wheels, Disc brakes, gear hubs, etc.


I am also considering manufacturing off the shelf bolt on Long bike front loader conversion kits, and Longtail rear loader, tadpole and delta trike conversion kits to fit donor frames, etc.

I would like to know what you guys would like to see in the Cargo cycle world; completely assembled? self assembly kits? and what options you would like; panel boxes? in built lighting systems fenders/mudguard? etc.

Hi Gareth,

Hope all goes well with the new bussiness and training up the lad ;)

I was just wondering have you got? or have you thought of doing a website with pics and lists etc of all type of cargo/trailer stuff you offer.

Regards
Tom

Hi Gareth,

Hope all goes well with the new bussiness and training up the lad ;)

I was just wondering have you got? or have you thought of doing a website with pics and lists etc of all type of cargo/trailer stuff you offer.

Regards
Tom

Greetings Tom (I'll give you a ring tonight; if I can find your number amoungst all the other crap presently on my desk)

Right, in answer to your questions:

1) Official product launch date of Cargo-Cycles is on the 1st March 2010.

2) web-site launch with photos and promo vids will be around the middle of February, with online ordering and paypal payment facilities coming on-line in early March.

3) All Cargo cycles to be built to order from stocked off the shelf components: Point of order to point of dispatch will be 5 working days or better in standard livery; Midnight Blue, Signal yellow and metallic silver. Custom liveries by arrangement, but our aim is a maximum of 10 working days; all of my painting requirements are currently contracted out at present, and will be for some time to come due to Health & Safety regulations.

4) Currently, my son and I are going frantically mad trying to put a minimum of 1500 KM X 100 KG pay load + 85 KG rider on each of our in-house preproduction, type approval frames, on the Norfolk, UK roads (mainly at night).

5) So far we have made modular mix and match frames that have been assembled into the following; recumberant rear loader trike and quad, front loader tadpole trike, rear loader recumberant trike, Bicycle to (up right delta) tricycle conversion kit, front plus rear loader quad, and I have in the jigs almost ready to weld up and then assemble, a front loader long bike converstion kit frame, this will be tested as above on a donor MTB frame, both with and without the rear (delta) trike converstion kit. A rear loader Long tail conversion kit is on the drawing board and in the engineering calculations stage.

6) Standard livery Demonstrator (ride before you buy) models will be available by appointment on the UK mainland from the 1st of March 2010.




As you can probably imagine, it is absolutely manic here: I''ve got one more 4 day Off-shore contract, a vintage tractor restoration to complete (some lucky guy's present from his wife) and a winch trailer to repair, all before Christmas, along with everything else that we are doing on these Cargo Cycles.

How about sourcing / designing / teaming up with someone that knows what their doing to come up with a Euro compliant through the gears electric assist system?

Cargo bikes / trikes designed around the panasonic pedelec system or other eg a lower powered Stoke Monkey type set up would be very practical where users are in hilly areas. There's plenty of hub gear systems which are easy to fit, but for cargo bikes through the gears would give greater flexibility.

I'm here in Dallas, Texas. I notice a lot of hubbub on the internet about cargo bicycles, but I see practically none of them around here. I think a lot of the US market is concentrated in a few major cities (Portland, New York, etc). That being the case, getting in touch with local potential customers could be a lot more informative for you than getting opinions from people scattered around the world, as apparently conditions and interest vary widely from place to place.

A couple of shortcomings I see in the cargo bike industry around here relate to the business, and not to the bikes themselves. For one thing, nobody stocks any kind of cargo bike (beyond a fairly normal bike with baskets or panniers), so there's no way to test-ride one. If you buy one, you pretty much buy it sight-unseen or buy it used. Most people that aren't really into cycling don't realize they exist. The local bike stores don't stock them, so potential buyers will never think to ask for them. Local stores don't have bike racks or other facilities for bikes. With these things in mind, if you want to sell your product locally, try to get it into local bike shops, try to get your bikes into parades or into the public eye in whatever way you can, and consider promoting them to an otherwise non-cycling audience.

Also consider riding conditions, particularly, hills. If your area is hilly, a lot of the current cargo bikes and trikes are ill-suited for that, and that leaves you a more specialized market.

talk to sammyboy he is in the UK and might have some ideas

i dream of a cart to push home from mall without the need to bag groceries; this cart had to be frontloaded; bike + cart should be as small as needed to fit into a common sized elevator or fold
say a foldable bernds cargo with detachable basket

my 2€c

The UK Cargo cycle market doesn't seem to know what it wants, and so is mainly drawing on the experience of the European way of doing things.


The majority of British retail outlets that stock cargo bikes are tending to push the Dutch style long Johns/Bakfiets and the American Long tails; often with extensive point of order to point of delivery times (as much as 3-4 months). There have been several valiant efforts by small UK manufacturers such as the now defunct Brox, and the admirable 8 Freight made by Mike Burrows of recumbent bicycle and the Olympic gold medal winning Boardman/ Lotus racing bike fame (and only 4 or 5 miles up the road from me).


After 8 months of extensive research into the potential of the UK Cargo bicycle market and drawing on inspiration from the many smaller manufacturers, homebuilders and users both in Europe and around the world, it is my carefully considered opinion that an estimated split of 80% industrial/utility and 20% goods delivery exists, and almost all imported; therefore the potential Lion’s share of the UK market is for my taking. That is why I have spent almost 6 months to date in the design, prototype build, and road test stage, and almost 9 months on the whole project. So far I already have an endurance of ; 100 kg laden, plus rider, 1500km on 6 of the 8 prototypes, which has not been an easy feat when taking into account my other commitments, and I would have really preferred 5000 km on each of the running pre-series prototypes before the production stage.


Electric assist is high on my priorities; not as an ad lib or ad hoc after the fact and after thought conversion, but as a built in and retro fit option: requiring all of what that entails at the design stage and the final in-house production frame approval, and it is proving to be a lot more involved and challenging than it sounds.

Gareth, front or rear loader?

1) Front loader up-right tadpole trike. 2) Up-right Delta rear loader trike. 3) Recumbent rear loader trike. 4) Front loader up-right quad. 5) Read loader up-right quad 6) Front plus rear loader up-right quad (WIP). 7) In the jigs; Recumbent rear loader quad.

Long John and long tail conversion kits for donor frames currently on the drawing board and in the engineering calculations phases.

----Long John---- for donor frames currently on the drawing board and in the engineering calculations phases.

interesting: LJ conversion kits are unheard of

interesting: LJ conversion kits are unheard of

Exactly!:thumb:

That is one of the possible routes that I am currently exploring; a viable "bolt on, straight from the box Long John converstion kit, suitable for home assembly on to the front of an existing donor MTB frame.

my latest up set is that I found that no one makes a 20" thorn proof tube that is good for 1.25" tire.

What I think the world needs is a trike that rides like a bike and that the rider can put his weight on the pedals. I know this has been done, but I don't know where they can be puchased.

these are the nicest machines that I have ever seen http://www.stitesdesign.com/

I'm here in Dallas, Texas. I notice a lot of hubbub on the internet about cargo bicycles, but I see practically none of them around here. I think a lot of the US market is concentrated in a few major cities (Portland, New York, etc). That being the case, getting in touch with local potential customers could be a lot more informative for you than getting opinions from people scattered around the world, as apparently conditions and interest vary widely from place to place.

A couple of shortcomings I see in the cargo bike industry around here relate to the business, and not to the bikes themselves. For one thing, nobody stocks any kind of cargo bike (beyond a fairly normal bike with baskets or panniers), so there's no way to test-ride one. If you buy one, you pretty much buy it sight-unseen or buy it used. Most people that aren't really into cycling don't realize they exist. The local bike stores don't stock them, so potential buyers will never think to ask for them. Local stores don't have bike racks or other facilities for bikes. With these things in mind, if you want to sell your product locally, try to get it into local bike shops, try to get your bikes into parades or into the public eye in whatever way you can, and consider promoting them to an otherwise non-cycling audience.

Also consider riding conditions, particularly, hills. If your area is hilly, a lot of the current cargo bikes and trikes are ill-suited for that, and that leaves you a more specialized market.

I agree. I have seen one or two longtail conversions in Reno in the last year IIRC. Based on web discussions etc I just ordered a Surly Big Dummy through my LBS even though I have never even seen one in the metal so to speak. In most parts of the USA cargo bikes are as common as hen's teeth and bike shops do not carry them or know about them.

If your average rider, or prospective rider, does not know about cargo bikes and their various configurations then they are not going to purchase one.

Gareth, if you manage to come up with a Long John conversion, how long before someone fixes one to the front of an Xtracycled bike?

Well, it had to be done, didn't it ...... Roflol.The longjohn fabrication, the longtail fabrication, and the rear delta trike converstion fabrication all got fitted to the donor/gonna frame this weekend. With a wheel base of just over 9 feet, and the turning radius of the average 40 feet semi/artic truck: Suprisingly it was actually nice to ride, and generated a few gawping looks from passers by as I wizzed around the block unladen. However, I have to strip it back to the longjohn only and continue getting the 1500 km on to the frame and fabs that I am using as a baseline.

Pictures or it didn't happen.

Pictures or it didn't happen.


I will just have to accept that.

Sorry, but no spoiler or teaser photos and videos of the development rigs during testing. ... ... if someone else spots me when I am out and about during the night time runs and then posts the pics on the web; then it is just my hard luck.

Gareth;

Any thing in the works to get a US or Canadian distributor? It sounds like your conversion kits might be of interest in the long ago revolted colonies.:)

Over the past few months I have actually been giving that some serious thought and although I have yet to finalise any plans in this direction, commonsense is telling me to negotiate and enter into Manufacturering Licencing agreements with existing Regional Cargo cycle manufacturers or local fabrication workshops. When you take into consideration the individual build costs, shipping, import duties, distribution cost, and then a profit margin for the retailer, the end user is going to be parting with a substancial amount of cash. Which sort of negates the ultimate reason for using a cargo cycle .... .... ..... to ease traffic congestion and reduce a given carbon footprint by reducing emmisions. Think about it: built here in the UK, shipped many thousands of miles in a container, then individual units handled and shipped by a distrubution company to the retailer, etc. and as these Cargo Cycle fabrications will cube out, way before they gross out in an ISO shipping containers it all adds up and defeats the primary objective. Much better to have the product built to a single worldwide standard design and build quality, but sourced locally; say 1000 mile radius, utilising local materials, and local labour. When I was in the Telescopic handler business, I worked on several; joint ventures, livery and badging, and licence to manufactuer projects: Caterpillar, Claas, Aveling-Barford, Sanderson, Shin-Mitsubushi, etc. and so I believe that this the correct path for me and my products to follow.

This also cuts the other way; as there are several designs of Cargo Cycle from around the world that I would consider manufacturering and marketing locally here in the UK. Why cause problems by ripping off a design and ending up in a protracted and costly legal battle, when a benefical to all agreement can be made, and a much wider product presence and awarness can be achieved.

I will just have to accept that.

Sorry, but no spoiler or teaser photos and videos of the development rigs during testing. ... ... if someone else spots me when I am out and about during the night time runs and then posts the pics on the web;
then it is just my hard luck.

Fair enough.

I wish you success in your cargo bike manufacturing business. I'd have offered suggestions if I'd had any. I'd have a problem storing such a bike. I could use one, but feel like a regular bike with trailer is sufficient for my needs, less expensive, and fits unhitched under the stairs.

Your comments please:

http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m230/Gareth_Lewis/Bicycles%20and%20bits/CargoCylesLogoRGB.jpg

Your comments please:

http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m230/Gareth_Lewis/Bicycles%20and%20bits/CargoCylesLogoRGB.jpg
Rubik's cube meets OCC?

I like it!

Better than a lot of corporate logos I have seen that companies paid big money for. It at least lets people know what your company is all about immediately.

When will the stickers be ready? like it clean, color and clear indication of product. Would look good on a t-shirt

When will the stickers be ready? like it clean, color and clear indication of product. Would look good on a t-shirt


Now that's a thought; I'll tweak the logo just a little to tidy it up a bit, and then have a few hundred stickers run-off to send out to you guys in a few weeks time. I'll also consider having some Tee Shirts printed up sometime around easter.

Here you go guys, I've tweaked the logo a little; What do you think?

http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m230/Gareth_Lewis/Bicycles%20and%20bits/CargoCylesLogo.jpg

Pictures or it didn't happen.

Puhleez! That is sooo 20th century. Pictures can be faked, they prove nothing any more. :crash:

Gareth - one comment. It's often a good idea to make certain that a logo for a company looks as good in black and white as it does in colour. There will likely be times where the use of a black and white version is more cost effective, or just generally simpler.

I don't believe your current effort would meet this test, as the "C"s would become lost in the overall look.

I hate it when people find issues, without suggesting solutions, so I took the liberty of making a few tweaks myself as suggestions. (feel free to disreguard).

This first tweak is taking your basic design, and just adding a bit of whitespace all around the large wheels on the bike, which also form the "C"s. This will allow for a B&W version to work without loss of the wheel shape.

Also I edited some of the spacing just a bit so that the white space between each of the elements is as equal as possible to all the other white spaces. IE: The space between the forks and the wheel is equal to the space between the 4 cargo boxes.

http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb60/gerald_g/Logo%20for%20CargoCycles/CC_01_500.jpg

Now this can be turned into a B&W image with no issues.

http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb60/gerald_g/Logo%20for%20CargoCycles/CC_02_500.jpg

Handy sometimes to have a look at an inverted image too. In case you wanted to silkscreen onto a dark T-shirt for example, it's nice to know what that may look like.

http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb60/gerald_g/Logo%20for%20CargoCycles/CC_03_500.jpg

The only other issue I could come up with, is against a white background, the yellow is very low contrast. I think the yellow bits get lost on a white background, so here's a version with a darker colour for the handlebar and forks. I think they are clearer against the white.

http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb60/gerald_g/Logo%20for%20CargoCycles/CC_04_500.jpg

Good luck in your venture. Something I have not seen that might be worth looking into is a cargo bike that folds for storage. Specifically I was thinking of a long john type where the front cargo basket front wheel assembly folds upward to the handlebars. One problem with cargo bikes is that apratment dwellers in large cities where these bikes are normally used have no place to store them.

Comments on the logo, I like what gerald_g did to it and quite frankly I like the inverted image the best.

Gareth - one comment. It's often a good idea to make certain that a logo for a company looks as good in black and white as it does in colour. There will likely be times where the use of a black and white version is more cost effective, or just generally simpler.

I don't believe your current effort would meet this test, as the "C"s would become lost in the overall look.

I hate it when people find issues, without suggesting solutions, so I took the liberty of making a few tweaks myself as suggestions. (feel free to disreguard).

This first tweak is taking your basic design, and just adding a bit of whitespace all around the large wheels on the bike, which also form the "C"s. This will allow for a B&W version to work without loss of the wheel shape.

Also I edited some of the spacing just a bit so that the white space between each of the elements is as equal as possible to all the other white spaces. IE: The space between the forks and the wheel is equal to the space between the 4 cargo boxes.

http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb60/gerald_g/Logo%20for%20CargoCycles/CC_01_500.jpg

Now this can be turned into a B&W image with no issues.

http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb60/gerald_g/Logo%20for%20CargoCycles/CC_02_500.jpg

Handy sometimes to have a look at an inverted image too. In case you wanted to silkscreen onto a dark T-shirt for example, it's nice to know what that may look like.

http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb60/gerald_g/Logo%20for%20CargoCycles/CC_03_500.jpg

The only other issue I could come up with, is against a white background, the yellow is very low contrast. I think the yellow bits get lost on a white background, so here's a version with a darker colour for the handlebar and forks. I think they are clearer against the white.

http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb60/gerald_g/Logo%20for%20CargoCycles/CC_04_500.jpg
Your changes are a major improvement, well done.
You obviously have a talent for this sort of thing.

Gerald G addressed the issues I was having. I like the structure of the logo a lot, and I think the execution suggested by Gerald is better.

I think the logo is catchy...one thing with the four squares, if not on the bike,
then on a sticker or shirt would be to do each square in a different color.
Not that there was anything wrong with the previous suggestions.

Good Luck,

Leo H.
Sun Valley, NV

Is there any concern about trampling on someone's copy righted logo or name? Just something to consider before you become too deep.

Looks/Sounds great in so far.

The Name "Cargo Cycles" is now registered and Copyrighted ©to me, and an official trade Mark ™ application for registration of both the logo and the name have have been made.

Congratulations!

I can't wait to see your designs!

Congratulations!

I can't wait to see your designs!

Alas, I am afriad that you will have to wait a few more weeks; this project has been a little bit of a time and cash consumer, and with existing customers for my other on-site engineering services starting to phone in with other jobs for me they are going to have the prioroty for the next 4-6 weeks. Spending time on the development of the Cargo Cycles has been; hard work, frustrating, exciting, exihilerating, and fun. However, I do need some income to keep my one-man-band business going. Fortunately I have just landed an ongoing contract to build and supply "Dry Land" wheeled racing rigs for Husky dog racers. Their racing season is currently in full swing, and it is something that I cannot dismiss at the moment. The saving grace is that the materials, technology, and build process is directly akin to bicycles and Cargo cycles.

That's quite all right. It's an idiom, you know. "Can't wait to see" means "eager to see." I can wait, and I do wait, and am excited at the prospect of seeing the designs in due time. :lol:

Decision made: I am going to move workshop again (2nd move in 3 months) and invest in new: Mig & Tig welders, plamsa cutter, Pillar drill, compressor, benches, oxy/acet welding & cutting gear, along with some new corded and corldess tools, a new hydraulic powered pipe bender (I have been manually bending up until now), and a rota-broaching tool head.

Cool!

I've signed a lease on a workshop today; fantastic discounts on the deal due to it being located on a new(ish) Industrial park in a local/regional business and commercial redevelopment zone, and the development agency are paying for the Cargo Cycles sign out front of the workshop and at the entrance to the industrial park, which also includes the installation of both :thumb:

Man, I am frothing with excitement. I like that logo "lots".

Fortunately I have just landed an ongoing contract to build and supply "Dry Land" wheeled racing rigs for Husky dog racers. Their racing season is currently in full swing, and it is something that I cannot dismiss at the moment. The saving grace is that the materials, technology, and build process is directly akin to bicycles and Cargo cycles.

It could conceiveably end up as the forerunner of a dog-powered bicycle. ;)

All the of hard work and the fun begins now!

That's right folks; Cargo Cycles Ltd moved into the new Industrial unit today.


Me with the keys, just before I opened the doors for the first time:

http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m230/Gareth_Lewis/Cargo%20Cycles/cargocycles-gareth002.jpg


Our stock stands at: 6 various knackered ex-freecycle bikes, and one dragged from the river Wensum during a recent fishing trip, one broken scooter frame, one second hand fibreglass Brox Cargo trike delivery box, and on the right of the photo one husky dog racing rig frame for use as a pattern. along with the various R&D prototype running frames and bits & pieces.

http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m230/Gareth_Lewis/Cargo%20Cycles/cargocycles-gareth003.jpg

Over the next few days I have various other tooling, etc. to either collect or being delivered including: hydraulic tube bender, Oxy/acet gas welding gear, Mig & Tig welders, Plasma cutter, air compressor, pillar drill, chop saw, 2 x Draughtsman's drawing boards, benches, vices, etc. along with 15 sheets of Plywood, various lengths of steel tubing, 2 metal garden sheds (office & stores), feed roller stands, angle grinders, woodworking router, etc.

As of 5pm this afternoon, the order book stands at: 75 of the 3 wheel Husky racing rigs, and 10 of the rear loader long Cargo bikes, and we don't even open properly until the 5th of April. It's going to be absolutely manic making stuff this month, so it's all systems are go now!

You should find a film maker and see if you can get on a Discovery Channel type show.

Have fun setting up the shop

Good on ya mate. A new unit and plenty of orders rolling in. You remember what Del boy used to say to plonker Rodney?

"This time next year we'll be millionaires" :lol:

Best of luck with Cargo Cycles Ltd. Keep us all updated with unit and build pics. :thumb:

Any chance of a close up pics of that fiberglass box.

Regards
Tom

Damn, how did I miss this thread? Gareth, I know where you your unit is ;)
Right next to a fire station... a park, and just down the road from a cemetary? Am I right?

Damn, how did I miss this thread? Gareth, I know where you your unit is ;)
Right next to a fire station... a park, and just down the road from a cemetery? Am I right?


You are absolutely right!

Now you are aware of where I am, why not call around for a coffee/tea and chat sometime. The park has a running track: so we've got somewhere to test the husky racing rigs. The nearby Fire Station will be handy for when we start welding , cutting and grinding.

And the nearby Hospital, and Cemetery: Well. I'll leave that to your imagination.... ...... lol

As for what was achieved today; very little, as Sammy & I are still moving stuff in, and while Sammy went fishing, I had a round trip of 350 miles to collect a second hand industrial metal cutting chop saw, and 3 x A0 size parallel motion drawing boards, which I had purchased on ebay for the grand total of 1p (1 penny) for all 3.

You are absolutely right!

Now you are aware of where I am, why not call around for a coffee/tea and chat sometime. The park has a running track: so we've got somewhere to test the husky racing rigs. The nearby Fire Station will be handy for when we start welding , cutting and grinding.

And the nearby Hospital, and Cemetery: Well. I'll leave that to your imagination.... ...... lol

As for what was achieved today; very little, as Sammy & I are still moving stuff in, and while Sammy went fishing, I had a round trip of 350 miles to collect a second hand industrial metal cutting chop saw, and 3 x A0 size parallel motion drawing boards, which I had purchased on ebay for the grand total of 1p (1 penny) for all 3.

That would be great - I'll let you get settled in a bit but I'd love to come and see what you're doing some time. I live less than a mile away. When your website's up, I'll tell some folk at the Norwich Cycling Campaign, and Transition Norwich, who will be interested. Probably not as customers themselves, but they'll pass the word around, I expect.