Classic & Vintage - Velo-Cheapo 2010 Bicycle Build-Off Rules

Vélo Cheapo 2010 Bicycle Build-Off

Wherein intrepid connoisseurs of all things bike shall compete against one another for the Honor & Glory in a test of wits & skill to assemble the most beautiful, functional, classic, and cheapest bicycle they are able. Minor changes for this year’s contest include:

No budget limitation (see below). Instead there will be increased points awarded for thriftiness.
Some minor changes to the registration process (see below).

Judges: stausty, Machin Shin, JunkYardBike
Entry collector: mkeller234
Photo coordinator: mkeller234
Entry fee: None
Prizes: Satisfaction and the envy of your peers
Limits: One bike per entrant, no maximum budget (however, points awarded for Thrift – see below.)

Contest Rules & Regulations

Eligibility:
If you are a regular member of BF, motivated to have a little fun in friendly competition with other members and build an awesome cheap bike, you are eligible. If you are petty, a sore loser, take yourself too seriously, or are otherwise not fun you are ineligible. Eligibility will be self-governed, no entrants, organizers, or judges will decide eligibility. It is the duty of any potential entrant to know if this isn't your kind of thing.

Dates & Deadlines:
Registration closes at February 1st , 2010.
Completed entries are due by March 1st, 2010. NEWSFLASH! Deadline has been extended to March 15th due to bad weather.

Registration:
Builders must submit their screen name and actual name to mkeller234 via email or PM. After your information has been received each builder will be assigned a unique number. This number will be the only identifier associated with your build entry until after judging is complete to ensure no intentional or unintentional preferential judging. When your bike is complete, contact mkeller234 to receive instructions regarding the posting of your photos and story.

Budget:
The total build budget is not limited. However, points awarded for Thrift will weight scores in favor of those operating with the smallest budget and producing the best results with that budget. See below for detailed scoring summary.

Accounting for costs:
All builders will be required to submit with their completed entry an expense list detailing the cost of everything that went into the build.

These expenses include but are not limited to:
Frame & Fork
Components
Materials for anything you build yourself
Consumables (paint, shellac, etc)
Labor done by others for which you paid or traded something of specific value

Expenses do not include:
Overhead
Tools (If you must purchase any specifically for this build)
Shipping (To be fair to our members outside the country or those who live in out-of-the-way places)
Lubricants, soaps, polishes or other normal maintenance consumables
Labor done by yourself

Entrants may feel free to account for a "by volume" consumable expense if it they so desire. For example, if a builder bought 2 cans of spray paint and used only 1.5 they are only responsible for the equivalent value of the used portion 1.5(total cost)

Entrants are each entitled to ONE and only one "freebie" which can be any item or other expense, which the builder actually received for free. This does not apply to new items given as gifts, nor can the "freebie" be used to negate the cost of any item for which you actually paid. The freebie may be applied towards an upgraded item for which there is no fair way to account for value. For example, if you replaced at some point a crank set with something newer, the value of the old cranks would not be equal to that of the new, but there is no other out-of-pocket cost associated with them. Trades are not freebies, unless the item which was traded away was free, a value must be calculated for the item received. Any component which normally comes in "pairs" may be counted as the single freebie. Example: shifters, calipers, etc. This does not apply to "systems." Example: brake levers & calipers, or both dérailleurs. The ONLY exception to the "one freebie" rule is garbage finds. While not everyone has cycling buddies who will give them old parts, everyone has access to the trash, and repurposing someone else's waste is free game for all. If you found it (that means no one gave it to you) discarded somewhere, it's yours to use free of penalty.

All other items must be accounted for monetarily. If an item was purchased and you cannot recall the cost it is your responsibility to assign it a fair market value, based on similar items being sold elsewhere or that you yourself have purchased. No outrageous bargains here, if you can't remember what you paid for it, be fair in your evaluation of what it's worth. (This will be on the honor system, but be sure to make a note of items for which you assigned an FMV in your expense list)

Complete bike purchased for parts may be included in the expenses either as the total cost of the bike or an FMV for each item used, at the builder's discretion.

The expense area is the only real way to cheat since there is no documentation required outside your word. Every builder is on the honor system, don't cheat, this is just for fun and karma will eventually kick you in the ass if you do. Play clean!

Entries:
Each builder will include in submission:
Photo documentation
An expense list
A narrative of the build process and what was done to ready the bike for submission

Photos limited to 10 photos per entry. Be creative and make your submission interesting to the judges.
Narratives may be submitted in the following file format: .pdf, .doc, .odt, .html .txt
Photos must be submitted as JPEG images.

Judging:
A panel of judges (Machin Shin, stausty, and JunkYardBike) will review all submissions anonymously and select the top three (3) entries based on the following point system (maximum of 60 points):

Thrift: 1-20 points

170.00 dollars or more (0pt)
169.99-160 (1pt)
159.99-150 (2pt)
149.99-140 (3pt)
139.99-130 (4pt)
129.99-120 (5pt)
119.99-110 (6pt)
109.99-100 (7pt)
99.99-90 (8pt)
89.99-80 (9pt)
79.99-70 (10pt)
69.99-60 (11pt)
59.99-50 (12pt)
49.99-40 (13pt)
39.99-30 (15pt)
29.99-20 (18pt)
19.99-10 (20pt)

Total build cost. The less you spend, the more points you get. Please don’t cut corners. Make your bike safe. If it needs new tires or brakes, well, you get the idea.

Style: 1-10 points
Style points will be awarded on the overall appearance and character of your bike.

Ingenuity: 1-10 points
Ingenuity points are award for your creative use of materials. For example, home-made pannier bags, horns, bells, racks, grips. Anything you make yourself in an effort to be thrifty.

Functionality: 1-10 points
Functionality points are awarded for your bike’s overall utility. A grocery getter, a cargo hauler, people transport, ultimate touring bike or all four!

Bonus points: 1-10 points
Bonus points are awarded by the judges any way they see fit. Je ne sais quoi.

Ties for the top 3 places will be decided by a vote among judges. Maximum points will decide the winner. There will also be three (3) honorable mentions – one awarded by each judge - for non-winning but particularly appealing entries in a category of our own choosing and definition (e.g. "Best use of gardening tools in bottom bracket repair", "Looks cool but also like a death trap", "Most attractive rattle-can paint job" instead of pre-defined categories.)
Disclaimer:

Few will enter, even fewer will win.
Bikeforums is in no way responsible for the outcome of this contest. By entering you agree to abide by all rules and regulations, accept all judgments as final and fair, and you assume responsibility for ensuring the fairness of your own actions.
Entrants also waive all rights to their narratives and photos which may be reproduced and hosted off-site.

To all the builders, good luck, have fun and be safe.

-Shin

Sounds good, I think I may have struck a good deal already.... A couple questions though. One, is there an age limit on bikes here? Two, is this road bikes only?

Sounds good, I think I may have struck a good deal already.... A couple questions though. One, is there an age limit on bikes here? Two, is this road bikes only?

We're C&V guys and judging is mostly subjective. Do with that what you'd like. So to answer your questions - strictly speaking, no and no.

But if it's got a rear suspension, there better be a really good reason. Just sayin'.

Correct. No and no.

-Shin

Are bikes we've already completed allowed? Any start/finish dates to attach to that? I'm asking because I completed a potential entry this summer.

Capo #1, for which I paid $20 at a yard sale, would have qualified before the CyclArt paint job.

Are bikes we've already completed allowed? Any start/finish dates to attach to that? I'm asking because I completed a potential entry this summer.

If you have all the other criteria for the contest; the documentation of the build, pictures, and a total cost, then yes, I'll allow it.

-Shin

Question............I purchased a Schwinn Varsity this past summer that was equipped with a new set of MTB pedals and toe straps. I replaced the pedals with something more "appropriate" and turned the Varsity for a fair profit............Do I need to assess a value to these pedals if I wish to use them or can they be considered free?

Question............I purchased a Schwinn Varsity this past summer that was equipped with a new set of MTB pedals and toe straps. I replaced the pedals with something more "appropriate" and turned the Varsity for a fair profit............Do I need to assess a value to these pedals if I wish to use them or can they be considered free?

You are allowed one freebie. In this case, your pedals can be used as said freebie item.

Okay cool..........

parts bin pick, one "freebie" everything after is assessed value,
all trash pick is fair game..............

Everyone, if you are participating in the contest, please PM mkeller234 with your registration information if you haven't already done so. Your Full Name and Bikeforums Screen Name.

Thanks,

-Shin

Bump, we should get a sticky on this!

I'll be registering.

So there's no required start time, just a required finish time?

I'll be registering.

So there's no required start time, just a required finish time?

Yeah, you can start whenever you like. The registration deadline is Feb 1st and the completed entry has to be in by March 1st.

Another bump.. how's everyone's projects going eh?

I haven't even started. I better get cracking. I have a lot of spare bikes, about 20 or more. It's hard to form ideas at this point. I want to do some sort of major transformation.

I'd like to play too, but don't have any potential winners currently waiting for work. I hope I find something before its too late.

I think I have all the pieces I need and most of them cleaned, lubed, and polished. Next I need the painters at work to find the time to spray it for me - probably after the holidays.

I'd like to play too, but don't have any potential winners currently waiting for work. I hope I find something before its too late.

Don't forget that you have until February 1st to register. Plenty of time yet.

-Shin

The tires I ordered arrived yesterday, so I did some experimenting with fit today. I think it'll work!

Neal

I'll sticky the thread after the Secret Santa thread comes off.

Mine's going pretty well, too. Just waiting unusually long for parts from pricepoint... odd because they're usually good at fast shipping. Must be x-mas season I s'pose!

I have a variation on the freebie question: Suppose you acquired a dumpster bike and sold the groupset for a price high enough that you were able to purchase all new parts and have money left over... Does the entire bike count as a single freebie even though it was complete? Does the dollar value count on the new parts you 'traded' for?

I have a variation on the freebie question: Suppose you acquired a dumpster bike and sold the groupset for a price high enough that you were able to purchase all new parts and have money left over... Does the entire bike count as a single freebie even though it was complete? Does the dollar value count on the new parts you 'traded' for?

I have an answer to your question, but let me confer with the other judges first.

-Judge Shin

Link to the other (now closed) thread. (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?606713-Velo-cheapo-contest-2010)

Link to the other (now closed) thread. (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?606713-Velo-cheapo-contest-2010)

Could you also post a link to this thread in the other - as the final post of that thread - in the event some participants may have be subscribed to it or have it bookmarked?

Well, I am up to 21 entrys so far. I decided that I will jumble the entry numbers once they are all in. That way, there is even less chance of guessing who is who.

I have a variation on the freebie question: Suppose you acquired a dumpster bike and sold the groupset for a price high enough that you were able to purchase all new parts and have money left over... Does the entire bike count as a single freebie even though it was complete? Does the dollar value count on the new parts you 'traded' for?

To answer your question, it doesn't matter how you came by the money, if you spent cash on parts for your entry, it counts towards your budget, even though that cash came from the sale of "free" parts.

-Shin

To answer your question, it doesn't matter how you came by the money, if you spent cash on parts for your entry, it counts towards your budget, even though that cash came from the sale of "free" parts.

-Shin

That doesn't quite make sense. Yes, the cash spent on new parts should count TOWARD your budget, but the cash made from any parts on the project bike that are sold should be deducted FROM your budget, NO?

That doesn't quite make sense. Yes, the cash spent on new parts should count TOWARD your budget, but the cash made from any parts on the project bike that are sold should be deducted FROM your budget, NO?

It's really a question of what the money is being deducted from. If I buy bike for $30.00, sell parts from it for $50.00, and then buy more parts for $40.00 that I use on the bike, the original bike could be the freebie (presuming there's not another), and you'd have $40.00 in budget for the parts you bought. NOT the $20.00 you'd have by lumping the entire budget $30.00 on bike + $40.00 on parts - $50.00 on the sale of parts. ...at least that's my understanding of it. I'll accept correction by the judges if they say this is incorrect.

It's really a question of what the money is being deducted from. If I buy bike for $30.00, sell parts from it for $50.00, and then buy more parts for $40.00 that I use on the bike, the original bike could be the freebie (presuming there's not another), and you'd have $40.00 in budget for the parts you bought. NOT the $20.00 you'd have by lumping the entire budget $30.00 on bike + $40.00 on parts - $50.00 on the sale of parts. ...at least that's my understanding of it. I'll accept correction by the judges if they say this is incorrect.

Hopefully this clarifies things and does not conflict with previous rulings:

1. The cost of different items acquired independently is independent.

2. Any item has a minimum cost of $0. So in the case of purchasing a bike then selling off parts of said bike for equal or greater amount than what you paid for the whole, the remaining bits count as free, but not negative cost.

1 + 2 = The sale of parts from a whole only counts towards reducing the cost of the remaining bits from the whole. The savings are not transferable to other items. If I buy a whole bike for $40, spend $20 on new wheels, then sell the old wheels for $70, my total cost for the budget is $20 - new wheels weren't part of the original whole plus the cost of the purchased bike cannot drop below $0.

Let's see now, first it's a good thing I didn't draft up a number plate, if the ends up with one on it. But the number jumble is a good idea.

Next, if I work this right I wonder if I could end up with a negative-$$$ value, nah not in my local market currently.

Made some progress by actually digging my way through the bike jumble to one potential project bike. Might change my mind though due to fork issues. Maybe I'll just invert some ape hangers and build a stretch limo funny bike fixed gear Drew Special.

Just gotta wait for the snow here to melt so I can start rummaging

That doesn't quite make sense. Yes, the cash spent on new parts should count TOWARD your budget, but the cash made from any parts on the project bike that are sold should be deducted FROM your budget, NO?

That's just it. Velo-Cheapo is about creative use of what you have, what you can find or what you can buy. There aren't any awards or bonus points for creative money management. It comes down to how much you spent and that's all. If you found a free bike in the trash and sold the parts for cash, I gotta ask, why didn't you use the whole bike or the parts for your entry?

It's not that complicated, what you spend on the bike, no matter where the money came from counts towards the budget. Here is an example that I hope will clear this up.

I buy a Peugeot for $50.00. It has the nasty Simplex Prestige derailleurs and they just happen to be broken. Next day I find a donor Nishiki bike in the trash. I decide to use the whole bike as my freebie and proceed to swap the derailleurs over to the Peugeot. I then add new tires, $20.00 and tubes, $10.00 and handlebar tape for $10.00.

Total price:
Peugeot $50.00
Nishiki parts bike $ Freebie $
Tires and tubes $30.00
Handlebar tape $10.00
Total $90.00

If I sell the wheels off the Nishiki for $40.00 and then use that money to buy, for example, front and rear racks for the Peugeot, then you add it to the budget.

Front rack $20.00
Rear rack $20.00

Now your total is $130.00.

-Judge Shin

Alright, here is a question for the judges (about valuation of things) : Let's say one buys a bike for $X and sells its frame for $2X and keeps the components for this competition. What value would you place on those components? (In my book, it should be a negative value), but I want to hear what the judges would say...

(and this is my 1,000th post, so I better pop a cork -tape that is)

Hopefully this clarifies things and does not conflict with previous rulings:

1. The cost of different items acquired independently is independent.

2. Any item has a minimum cost of $0. So in the case of purchasing a bike then selling off parts of said bike for equal or greater amount than what you paid for the whole, the remaining bits count as free, but not negative cost.

1 + 2 = The sale of parts from a whole only counts towards reducing the cost of the remaining bits from the whole. The savings are not transferable to other items. If I buy a whole bike for $40, spend $20 on new wheels, then sell the old wheels for $70, my total cost for the budget is $20 - new wheels weren't part of the original whole plus the cost of the purchased bike cannot drop below $0.

This is a workable accounting process, and if we agree to go this way, I'm fine with it. However, I personally dislike it because it gives advantage to flippers. I could probably build a bike for near $0 because I'll often sell parts/frame/etc. of a purchase for more or equal to the original purchase price. If we want to reward this, that's fine.

As I see it, however, this competition is a friendly one that should be made as fair as possible to everyone involved. To me, this means all participants should try, as individuals, to account for costs as fairly as possible. There is no way that we, as judges, can audit each entry. We're working on the honor system here.

The two salient 'guidelines' I pull from the rules (which are unchanged from last year's competition) are:

1. Complete bike purchased for parts may be included in the expenses either as the total cost of the bike or an FMV for each item used, at the builder's discretion.

2. The expense area is the only real way to cheat since there is no documentation required outside your word. Every builder is on the honor system, don't cheat, this is just for fun and karma will eventually kick you in the ass if you do. Play clean!

So in my opinion, unless an item is pulled from the trash, it must be accounted for monetarily, with the exception of the ONE freebie, which may be acquired free in ways other than a trash find. Therefore, if you buy a bike for $20, sell everything but the crank for $300, and use the crank for your project, you should assign it's value as $20 or whatever you deem the FMV to be for that particular crank.

This is simply an alternative opinion. If most of us would prefer to reward the 'flipper's economy', I'm fine with it.

That's just it. Velo-Cheapo is about creative use of what you have, what you can find or what you can buy. There aren't any awards or bonus points for creative money management. It comes down to how much you spent and that's all. If you found a free bike in the trash and sold the parts for cash, I gotta ask, why didn't you use the whole bike or the parts for your entry?

It's not that complicated, what you spend on the bike, no matter where the money came from counts towards the budget. Here is an example that I hope will clear this up.

I buy a Peugeot for $50.00. It has the nasty Simplex Prestige derailleurs and they just happen to be broken. Next day I find a donor Nishiki bike in the trash. I decide to use the whole bike as my freebie and proceed to swap the derailleurs over to the Peugeot. I then add new tires, $20.00 and tubes, $10.00 and handlebar tape for $10.00.

Total price:
Peugeot $50.00
Nishiki $ Freebie $a
Tires and tubes $30.00
Handlebar tape $10.00
Total $90.00

If I sell the wheels off the Nishiki for $40.00 and then use that money to buy, for example, front and rear racks for the Peugeot, then you add it to the budget.

Front rack $20.00
Rear rack $20.00

Now your total is $130.00.

-Judge Shin

+1 Very well put Judge Shin!

Alright, here is a question for the judges (about valuation of things) : Let's say one buys a bike for $X and sells its frame for $2X and keeps the components for this competition. What value would you place on those components? (In my book, it should be a negative value), but I want to hear what the judges would say...

(and this is my 1,000th post, so I better pop a cork -tape that is)

In my opinion, and I believe Shin's as well, those components should be accounted for as costing your original $X, or you should assign those used on your project a FMV, individually, if that is the lesser amount.

I believe stausty would rule the components cost you $0.

Now all we need is a consensus. :) I have no trouble honoring the consensus of the competition's entrants. But if that's too complicated to determine, it appears the judges rule 2-1 in favor of accounting for the components as greater than $0.

This sounds like fun. I just have to rid my basement of all the sawdust from my wifes Christmas present (a Mission style Ash coffee table) and figure out which bike could be a candidate....

This sounds like fun. I just have to rid my basement of all the sawdust from my wifes Christmas present (a Mission style Ash coffee table) and figure out which bike could be a candidate....

I can't wait to see it!

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3102/2778359854_8cf836b5c6.jpg

http://www.wired.com/images_blogs/photos/uncategorized/2008/08/04/r2dougfirsatinewood_bike_renovo.jpg

http://bike.blogware.com/bike_from_wood.jpg

This actually looks doable:

http://stayfocused.at/jano/slideshow/jano_functionalprototype_dscn6897_big.jpg

And of course, the internet legend:

http://blog.makezine.com/woodbike.jpg

I was thinking that I might have to account for costs in two ways: 1) estimated value of the parts and 2) their actual cost to me. One is certainly going to be higher than two as a result of flipping activities. For example, the pedals I will likely use came off of a bike I bought for $140 and sold for $150 (and substituted some pedals that came off a bike I found in the trash). And several other parts will likely come from a bike I bought for $100, mostly for its brand new Brooks B17. That CL purchase was completed by a local friend who was one town away from the seller. He kept the frameset, and I got all of the parts, including the B17, so I could imagine that I assign a value of $75 to the saddle and figure everything else cost me $25 (wheelset, crankset, brakes, bars, etc.)? And, finally, I have managed to amass items in the parts bin of which I have no idea as to origins; they likely came from geared bikes that I stripped down and sold off as single speeds. As I said, two values: estimated value and actual cost.

Neal

just gotta wait for the snow here to melt so i can start rummaging

x2

I was thinking that I might have to account for costs in two ways: 1) estimated value of the parts and 2) their actual cost to me. One is certainly going to be higher than two as a result of flipping activities. For example, the pedals I will likely use came off of a bike I bought for $140 and sold for $150 (and substituted some pedals that came off a bike I found in the trash). And several other parts will likely come from a bike I bought for $100, mostly for its brand new Brooks B17. That CL purchase was completed by a local friend who was one town away from the seller. He kept the frameset, and I got all of the parts, including the B17, so I could imagine that I assign a value of $75 to the saddle and figure everything else cost me $25 (wheelset, crankset, brakes, bars, etc.)? And, finally, I have managed to amass items in the parts bin of which I have no idea as to origins; they likely came from geared bikes that I stripped down and sold off as single speeds. As I said, two values: estimated value and actual cost.

Neal

Is that a question Neal? :)

Do you mean you'll have to account for your costs in two ways, to arrive at one estimate? Or do you mean to point out that on most of these projects, there will be an actual cost and an estimated value? Maybe participants should calculate and submit both?

From a judging perspective, it's apropos that the only 'objective' criterion becomes a tangled nest! :lol:

I did have premonitions the accounting might cause controversy, but it appears to have worked itself out last year. Were you dissatisfied with the accounting process last year Neal?

I'm all about process decisions on something like this, but it could potentially take longer to iron out than the duration of the contest itself.

In my opinion, and I believe Shin's as well, those components should be accounted for as costing your original $X, or you should assign those used on your project a FMV, individually, if that is the lesser amount.

I believe stausty would rule the components cost you $0.

Now all we need is a consensus. :) I have no trouble honoring the consensus of the competition's entrants. But if that's too complicated to determine, it appears the judges rule 2-1 in favor of accounting for the components as greater than $0.

I see the wisdom in your and Shin's argument. List what you paid or traded for everything you paid or traded for, minus the freebe. And don't make it needlessly complicated.

I see the wisdom in your and Shin's argument. List what you paid or traded for everything you paid or traded for, minus the freebe. And don't make it needlessly complicated.

:thumb:

-Shin

Is that a question Neal? :)

Do you mean you'll have to account for your costs in two ways, to arrive at one estimate? Or do you mean to point out that on most of these projects, there will be an actual cost and an estimated value? Maybe participants should calculate and submit both?

From a judging perspective, it's apropos that the only 'objective' criterion becomes a tangled nest! :lol:

I did have premonitions the accounting might cause controversy, but it appears to have worked itself out last year. Were you dissatisfied with the accounting process last year Neal?

I'm all about process decisions on something like this, but it could potentially take longer to iron out than the duration of the contest itself.

More of a rambling thought than a question. I had no problems with the accounting last year, but I mostly commented to point out that as one of those flippers/hoarders, I likely do have an advantage. Thus, I likely should report both actual costs and component value.

Neal

Budget killer:
http://aebike.com/page.cfm?action=details&PageID=30&SKU=HU2204

On to plan-b and revisiting the fork issue.

Question: do these have to fit us or can I build up a kid's bike, or maybe take an old BMX Schwinn Predator down off the wall and set it up with a super tall stem and drop bars and a mega-long setback seatpost and a pair of recumbent 20"x1-3/8" road slicks and bolt on a bolt-on derailleur hanger and convert it to a pseudo-10-speed grocery grabber?????

It's no fun when the plans turn left while you were leaning hard right.

Consider any questions above just rhetorical, besides I'd probably use the GT Pro Performer for that conversion since it has the stand on top surfer bars which I'd use instead of drops.

Confused? Perfect, then the plan is working .... 8-)

Budget killer:
http://aebike.com/page.cfm?action=details&PageID=30&SKU=HU2204

On to plan-b and revisiting the fork issue.

Question: do these have to fit us or can I build up a kid's bike, or maybe take an old BMX Schwinn Predator down off the wall and set it up with a super tall stem and drop bars and a mega-long setback seatpost and a pair of recumbent 20"x1-3/8" road slicks and bolt on a bolt-on derailleur hanger and convert it to a pseudo-10-speed grocery grabber?????

It's no fun when the plans turn left while you were leaning hard right.

Consider any questions above just rhetorical, besides I'd probably use the GT Pro Performer for that conversion since it has the stand on top surfer bars which I'd use instead of drops.

Confused? Perfect, then the plan is working .... 8-)

You can build up anything you like. I think a cheapo kids bike would be a cool idea. Go for it!

-Judge Shin

Hmmm, plan-K then, got some napkin sketching to do, possibly even dust off a sewing machine or oil up the leather stitcher. Hmmmm, thinking ....