Singlespeed & Fixed Gear - I scored a 3rensho! need advice.

EDIT: update on bottom of page 4

Hey guys and gals!
I very recently got my hands on a 3rensho frame off ebay.. sort of like a christmas gift to myself (it's really just an excuse for wanting this frame so badly). I'm looking for some advises for the fork and wheelset.

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e179/ichitz/3renshoFrame.jpg

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e179/ichitz/3renshoThumbs.jpg

According to Affinity Cycles (who sold it on ebay), the guy who previously owned it trashed the fork, that's why it didn't come with the frame. The head tube was reamed by Mr. Tanabe of Kalavinka to take ISO instead of JIS. What kind of forks would you guys suggest? I prefer something classic, steel and lugged over an aero fork, but i'm open to all your suggestions.

EDIT: I'm gonna run front brakes, so a fork that is drilled for brakes plz.

So you're the guy who bought that one huh? I wasn't sure if it would've sold w/o a fork.

The JIS to ISO just means they took down the fork crown race and the ID of the headtube to accept the 26.4mm crown race over the 27. I had to do this to my Panasonic to fit the King headset. You'll need to buy a 26.4 race from King for any fork you decide to go with and make sure the fork is also at 26.4.

If I had that frame, I'd probably get a 1" threaded woundup.

OH, as far as wheels, I'd do something all black.

EDIT: Forgot to ask, what are you going to do for a seat binder bolt?

I would check the frame for integrity since this was crashed before.

haha. Yep! I'm the 'gal' that bought that off ebay. I had a feeling someone would recognize the frame when I posted it :P

It came with a chris king headset. It's just sitting in my box of stuff now. The wound up looks nice. A little on the pricey side for me right now.

I was thinking of the Torelli Bormio Pista wheels (http://www.torelli.com/parts/torelli-track-wheels/bormio-pista-wheels.html).. I really like products from Torelli. It's just I wanted to see what else was out there.

hmm.. seat binder bolt. Haven't given much thought to it. I thought I'ld just see what the stores have. That or I might just take the bolt from my peugeot for the moment.

http://media.fukung.net/images/8085/c6c83d4c3f253aa37e2f2b22087fb146.jpg

That's really awesome. Personally I'd go for a carbon fork and some Open Pros on low-flange track hubs, but I'm sort of weird like that.

spicer chrome fork.
black open pros to dura ace

ADSR: Affinity did put a carbon fork on it in the store just for display purposes. It did look sick. I forgot what fork it was but it was real nice. Except I don't think it's really for me.

bionnaki: The spicer looks nice. Any personal experiences with it? Originally I wanted the Torelli pista fork (http://www.torelli.com/parts/steel-forks/torelli-drilled-pista.html), except it's close to $400. If I get it, I probably wouldn't be able to ride my 3rensho for another 3 months. That would be sad and painful :(

Easton EC90 SL straight blade.

EDIT: Forgot to ask, what are you going to do for a seat binder bolt?

Shouldn't be that hard. Actually, I think that i have the right seat binder down in my shop. PM me if you're interested.

Some seat binder bolts for Kierin frames are near impossible to procure.

EDIT: NM, Retro to the rescue

awesome! Lemme go home and measure and get back to u, retro!

What rake did the original fork have? I'm guessing you won't want a road fork for this....

even if you can't get the proper seat post binder bolt right away, you could just jerry-rig something from home depot to work in the mean time until you find the proper thing.

Just find a matching 3rensho chromed (since yellow's a tad hard to come by), and stay with that if you want classic. I wouldn't stick anything carbon on it to violate that "classic" feel. An aero bladed fork would look nice as well, just find a chromed one.

As for wheel set, if you want super classic, you could go suntour superbes to arraya's, or you could just go dura ace to mavic open pro's. Just don't stick veep's on them. =\

Oh yea, if you want carbon, Kinesis has an classic feel to it.

What rake did the original fork have? I'm guessing you won't want a road fork for this....

I have no idea what the original fork rake is.
BUT. I found this in the BF archive:

Yoshi Konno/3Rensho were the innovators(to the best of my knowledge) of an offset investment cast fork crown design that moved the fork blades into a plane in front of the center line of the steerer tube. This allowed the forks to be made with a shorter fork rake while achieving the same trail configuration as normal crown/longer fork rake design. In theory, this was done to produce a stiffer overall ride.

Just find a matching 3rensho chromed (since yellow's a tad hard to come by), and stay with that if you want classic. I wouldn't stick anything carbon on it to violate that "classic" feel. An aero bladed fork would look nice as well, just find a chromed one.
This is why I won't buy NJS frames w out a fork, but to expand a bit further past aesthetics, NJS frames have that famous nervous geometry, and that's part of what you pay for. Unless I have a build sheet with AtoC and rake measurements, I don't want to even mess with putting a new fork on an NJS frame and risk compromising the designed geometry.

oh! Found it. The original fork looks something like this:

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/196/513537448_6318f2e3ff.jpg?v=0

It's going to be painful, but just wait it out till you find a matching fork. The rake seriously affects the intended geometry and handling and I don't think you want to compromise the ride of an NJS frame you've been dreaming about.

Hold out, it'll be worth it.

hmm. This is the only 3rensho fork (http://njs-keirin.blogspot.com/2008/10/forks.html) I found out there so far.

It's blue, 144mm, $128.

EDIT: and it seems like the dropouts are rusty.

I'd spend some time tracking down the exact dimensions of the fork designed around your size frame.

You could try contacting SanRenSho with the serial number of the frame, they might have a record of it.

don, isn't 3rensho gone now that Mr. Yoshi Konno is paralyzed?

The Spicer fork is nice, I've been riding mine for a few years without issue.

Hey guys and gals!
I very recently got my hands on a 3rensho frame off ebay.. sort of like a christmas gift to myself (it's really just an excuse for wanting this frame so badly). I'm looking for some advises for the fork and wheelset.

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e179/ichitz/3renshoFrame.jpg

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e179/ichitz/3renshoThumbs.jpg

According to Affinity Cycles (who sold it on ebay), the guy who previously owned it trashed the fork, that's why it didn't come with the frame. The head tube was reamed by Mr. Tanabe of Kalavinka to take ISO instead of JIS. What kind of forks would you guys suggest? I prefer something classic, steel and lugged over an aero fork, but i'm open to all your suggestions.

EDIT: I'm gonna run front brakes, so a fork that is drilled for brakes plz.

San Renshos were imported by Yellow Jersey Ltd in Madison Wisconsin. Talk with Andy Muzi, he can tell you what fork you need. http://www.yellowjersey.org/

With the unique geo it might make sense to have a fork built for it. Not the cheapest option but it's up to you.

hmm. This is the only 3rensho fork (http://njs-keirin.blogspot.com/2008/10/forks.html) I found out there so far.

It's blue, 144mm, $128.

EDIT: and it seems like the dropouts are rusty.
I'm not sure, but it looks like a road fork (oval blades) if that matters to you. Re: the rusty dropouts -- you're going to repaint it anyway, yes?

Make sure the steer tube is long enough before you buy it, though, Measure the length of your head tube and add the stack height of whatever headset you intend to use. E.g. if the head tube is 100mm and your headset has a stack height of 40mm, you need at least 140mm of steer tube. When in doubt, a longer steer tube is safe than a shorter one since you can always trim a long tube or add washers to make it work, If it starts out too short, you're SOL.

Haha, I was the first bidder on this frame. Then I saw the Watanabe, and I just won that, so it's all good.
I think any decent chrome track fork would like beautiful with that frame
but looks like those Torelli wheels are a bit heavy
I would go for some campy wheels or maybe mavic ellipses

Congrats on the Watanabe dude, that frame was beautiful

Congrats on the Watanabe dude, that frame was beautiful

tru dat, now I just need to pay for it...

JohnDThompson: yea, i just got home and measured the headtube with the chris king headset it came with. 140mm seems it could be too short or just made it. I dont think that would be a smart risk.

spcialzdspksman: Haha. I knew a lot of people must have recognized the frame and have bidded on it. I only hope whoever that was trying to outbid me in the last minute isn't going to come on and curse at me. Congrats on the Watanabe! I saw that too and it looks really nice.

I just contacted yellow jersey. Hopefully they could recommend a fork that would be similar to the original. If not then I also think a chrome fork would be beautiful. Can't wait till the day I ride this bike!

There's nothing special about "NJS" geometry. In fact, there is no such thing as "NJS geometry". They're just track bikes, and they're built in a range of geometries that typify track bicycles, ie. 74-75 degree angles and 20-40mm fork rakes. A generic chromed track fork with round blades would be just fine on the bike, would not cause it to lose any of its precious handling qualities (seriously, where do you kids come up with this stuff?) and will not cause the NJS gods to smite you.

There's nothing special about "NJS" geometry. In fact, there is no such thing as "NJS geometry". They're just track bikes, and they're built in a range of geometries that typify track bicycles, ie. 74-75 degree angles and 20-40mm fork rakes. A generic chromed track fork with round blades would be just fine on the bike, would not cause it to lose any of its precious handling qualities (seriously, where do you kids come up with this stuff?) and will not cause the NJS gods to smite you.

My apologies, I didn't realize the difference in fork length, trail, chain stay length, wheel base wouldn't make a difference on a bike at all! Because only the ht st angle and fork rake matters.
And we're not referring to a single, unique "NJS geometry". We're talking about any track geometry that qualifies and meets NJS standards.
But in this case, they want to preserve that one (of many) NJS-certified handling balance that the frame was designed and hand-tailored for.

My apologies, I didn't realize the difference in fork length, trail, chain stay length, wheel base wouldn't make a difference on a bike at all! Because only the ht st angle and fork rake matters.

If I'd said any of that you'd have had a stunning rebuttal. What I actually said was that a generic track fork will be fine because it will be close enough, because there really isn't much difference in typical track geometries. Frankly, considering that you yourself suggesting a generic chromed track fork, I'm having a hard time understanding why you're picking a fight.



And we're not referring to a single, unique "NJS geometry". We're talking about any track geometry that qualifies and meets NJS standards.

I don't believe there is any such thing. If there is, it's a range that -- again -- is just typical track geometry, and so works with a typical track fork.


But in this case, they want to preserve that one (of many) NJS-certified handling balance that the frame was designed and hand-tailored for.

Which is the same balance that any typical track bike will have, because there is no "NJS-certified handling balance".

They're just bikes, folks. No magic pixie dust or dark incantations. If you stripped the NJS stamps off a keirin bike it would be identical to the great majority of 80's track bikes -- tubing, geometry, parts, all of it. Just bikes...

With the unique geo it might make sense to have a fork built for it. Not the cheapest option but it's up to you.

http://njs-keirin.blogspot.com/2008/10/forks.html

im sure you could get away right running one of the non 3rensho ones. finding one by itself is gunna be pretty hard.

i threw a 40 offset woundup on my pixie dust njs stamped peloton. i have yet to randomly veer into a tree and die. it also has not exploded yet.

steering feels like a bike. comparable to crit geo road bikes, maybe a little more quick or twitchy or whatever bs word you wanna use.

just throw on a chrome soma rush fork, they're like a hundo and made for brakes. I just went with the wound up because I got a great deal on it and love the look of them. they're also stiff as hell

Six jours: I do understand that I could throw about any fork on the 3rensho and ride it, which is what I intend to do. And all the suggestions seems great so far. But if I were fortunate enough to come across the 3rensho fork that was made for this frame, I'ld still prefer that not because of 'NJS standard geometry' but because that was what the builder, Mr. Konno, originally intend for. Given if my finances allows it of course :(

milkcratebasket & Lupin: Thanks! I might get the soma fork or the spicer if I don't find a 3rensho fork.

EDIT: YellowJersey replied saying they have the 3rensho forks for a whopping $599. I don't know if I can afford it...

Brand new? Any in the right color?

In chrome. I don't think they are brand new. Waiting for them to reply.

Honestly, if worse comes to worse and if you aren't determined to keep a 3rensho fork on this, a woundup would look great on that frame, and they can be had for cheap.
I'd consider it. I always dug modernized NJS frames with King headsets, sealed bb's, and carbon forks. Just my two cents.

Top it off with a badass black wheelset, a concor, and some bullhorns or drops, and you've got yourself a very menacing ride.

128904

You could try contacting panasonic to see if they would custom up a fork-only for you:
http://www.pistoposeur.blogspot.com/

Thanks guys. I made a list of components and i'm still weighing in on the fork I should get.

In the meantime, I think I might go with Araya rims. What on you guys thoughts on clinchers vs. tubulars? I have zero experience with tubulars tho I heard it's light and strong but more expensive to replace.

Clinchers for street, sew ups are simply not practical, especially if you plan on skidding.

Thanks guys. I made a list of components and i'm still weighing in on the fork I should get.

In the meantime, I think I might go with Araya rims. What on you guys thoughts on clinchers vs. tubulars? I have zero experience with tubulars tho I heard it's light and strong but more expensive to replace.

36 hole 4X Araya (gold) box rims to Suzue Pro Max to some skin-wall (clincher) tires.

yo: I rarely skid on my current FG, so I was thinking it wouldn't hurt to get tubulars except I don't have any experiences with them

lorok, I thought Araya golds are tubulars?

http://www.araya-kk.co.jp/rim/catalog/12_16b-gold.htm

something with bladed spokes would look bomb. I really like the cane creek track v's, and lighter at 832/934g F/R = 1766g/set
http://www.bikyle.com/images/Parts/CraneVolosTrkWhls.jpg
http://www.ride-this.com/index.php/cane-creek-volos-track-700c-wheelset-fr-black.html?source=googleps is the only shop I saw online selling them.

that deserves a low profile custom build.

The RVA CL has Suzue Pro Max to MA-3's right now for $100... Not a bad deal and would fit the bike nicely I think.

yo: I rarely skid on my current FG, so I was thinking it wouldn't hurt to get tubulars except I don't have any experiences with them

lorok, I thought Araya golds are tubulars?

http://www.araya-kk.co.jp/rim/catalog/12_16b-gold.htm

Hmm, so they are. Good eye.

If I'd said any of that you'd have had a stunning rebuttal. What I actually said was that a generic track fork will be fine because it will be close enough, because there really isn't much difference in typical track geometries. Frankly, considering that you yourself suggesting a generic chromed track fork, I'm having a hard time understanding why you're picking a fight.




I don't believe there is any such thing. If there is, it's a range that -- again -- is just typical track geometry, and so works with a typical track fork.



Which is the same balance that any typical track bike will have, because there is no "NJS-certified handling balance".

They're just bikes, folks. No magic pixie dust or dark incantations. If you stripped the NJS stamps off a keirin bike it would be identical to the great majority of 80's track bikes -- tubing, geometry, parts, all of it. Just bikes...

No, you didn't explicitly say that they didn't matter, but you did imply that all track bikes will all be similar simply because they have the same ht st angle and rake.
I'm suggesting that a chrome trackfork would look good, but does not in any way imply that I am suggesting any old generic chrome fork from a dumpster. I was referring to one that would have similar specs to it's original fork i.e. in rake and length (or even crown design or tubing) = "track fork".

Then again, maybe I wasn't exactly clear. I said "any decent track fork". There are "track forks" that have 28, 30, 40 rake. Forks with 0 rake (they do exist, check it out: http://fixedgearbikes.blogspot.com/2009/01/kinethic-freestyle-fork-in-action-free.html) are possible.
That was my fault, I was unclear.

But you're suggesting any "typical" track fork.
For one, there's the factor of fork length. According to Sheldon, forks with the same rake only mimic the same handling when length is not altered. http://www.sheldonbrown.com/rinard/forklengths.htm
So no, not any "typical" track fork will create the same handling. Because the specs on the wide range of any available "typical" track fork can be different.
If you put a fork with different lengths, the frame's ht and st angle will change, therefore changing the handling.

And apparently you find nothing special about "bikes". "Bikes" are "bikes" to you, nothing special. Even if they're hand-made by a master framebuilder vs. one mass-produced in a factory. No difference. Same thing. Makes me wonder why demand for hand built frames are high. Or even question why bikes are priced so differently. Maybe you need to realize the differences.
Supposedly "80s track bikes" are the same as NJS track bikes. I don't know the specifics, but you would think, that after 20+years of experiences, inspections, crashes, and new technology would not affect the standard of NJS certification. Really?

Then again, bikes are only bikes right? Just pieces of tubes stuck together in a shape that will allow a person to pedal from point A to point B. No changes. No differences.
So just get a "typical" track fork.
While you're at it get a "typical" bike.
Identical things.

Six jours: I do understand that I could throw about any fork on the 3rensho and ride it, which is what I intend to do. And all the suggestions seems great so far. But if I were fortunate enough to come across the 3rensho fork that was made for this frame, I'ld still prefer that not because of 'NJS standard geometry' but because that was what the builder, Mr. Konno, originally intend for. Given if my finances allows it of course http://www.bikeforums.net/../images/smilies/frown.gif

Understandable. I'd do the same thing. But I'd also plan on it being a long and/or expensive project. Meanwhile...

It does occur to me that the Surly forks are actually very similar to the San Rensho forks. The Rensho forks used socketed dropouts, round blades, fairly minimal rakes, and flat crowns, as do the Surlys. I am not sure if you can still get the Surly forks in 1" threaded, however.