Cyclocross - Shopping list of CF Cyclocross

Does anybody have information to improve this shopping list?

Need the bike in May. Size 58 cm. At least 32 mm profile tires.
Here is my current short list.

Stevens Carbon Team Ultegra.
Shimano Ultegra. Posted price is $2,800.
http://www.stevensbikes.de/2009/inde...g=en_US&cou=US

Kuota Cyclokross Kross 2010
Shimano Ultegra. Posted price is $4,000.
I do not know why this bike cost more then Stevens.
http://www.airevalleycycles.com/prod...m1b92s200p4907

Ridley X Fire.
Warning: Check Geometry. Bike may be tippy and high compared to Madone.
Rival / Sram components. Posted price is $3,439.
http://www.competitivecyclist.com/ro...fire-6401.html

Blue Norcross Carbon CX
Shimano Ultegra / Dura Ace. Posted price is $4,000.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/reviews/blue-norcross

Bianchi Cross Concept
Shimano Ultegra / Dura Ace. Posted price is $3,299.
http://www.bianchiusa.com/10-bicycle...cept-race.html

This is a summary of my current knowledge of this subject. All these bikes are CF new and assembled. Price does not include taxes and shipping.

Bentley or Rolls, I can't decide...

Personally I would get two cheaper bikes and use one as pit bike. You will have a better chance of winning your races this way. (this assumes you plan to race, and for God sakes if you are looking at these bikes you better be).

Why CF? Why May?

If you can get past the CF thing, look into the Cannondale CX9.

Bentley or Rolls, I can't decide...

Personally I would get two cheaper bikes and use one as pit bike.

..Why CF?


Will doesn't want the bike for racing - more for riding roughish roads. He does want a compliant shock absorbing frame and thinks CF is the way to get this... (Yes, people told him otherwise - and that the bike he probably wants is a Cross Check. But Will likes carbon. Fortunately he got warned that the Ridley is VERY taut - nice save, Pharding*.)

What he'd probably benefit hearing about from anyone who has ridden these is -

- Does the frame have the road bike-ish position he is looking for? (The Ridley has a short top tube and highish BB for example, which sounds great to me but isn't what Will wants.)

- Is the frame nicely compliant, buzz absorbing, not too hard?

- Are there any fork shudder/brake squeal issues? (At this price I'd bloody well hope not!)

*Will - you have seen Pharding's review of his Stevens?

Will doesn't want the bike for racing - more for riding roughish roads. He does want a compliant shock absorbing frame and thinks CF is the way to get this... (Yes, people told him otherwise - and that the bike he probably wants is a Cross Check. But Will likes carbon. Fortunately he got warned that the Ridley is VERY taut - nice save, Pharding*.)

What he'd probably benefit hearing about from anyone who has ridden these is -

- Does the frame have the road bike-ish position he is looking for? (The Ridley has a short top tube and highish BB for example, which sounds great to me but isn't what Will wants.)

- Is the frame nicely compliant, buzz absorbing, not too hard?

- Are there any fork shudder/brake squeal issues? (At this price I'd bloody well hope not!)

*Will - you have seen Pharding's review of his Stevens?

Thanks for looking out for me. I will be looking at the Stevens review.
Life is complicated.
I want a Roadbike like Trek Madone with CF and 32 mm tires. Darn it, seems impossible to get. Perhaps I should start a bike company? I do not want to race Cyclecross. Too old. My bones may break.
Road biking is all I do. Unfortunatley many of my roads are Limestone with sandy spots and holes.

How about the Specialized Tricross Carbon? http://www.specialized.com/us/en/bc/SBCBkModel.jsp?sid=10Tricross&eid=4670&menuItemId=9263

How about the Specialized Tricross Carbon? http://www.specialized.com/us/en/bc/SBCBkModel.jsp?sid=10Tricross&eid=4670&menuItemId=9263

Yeah, that is where I started my search. For $5,500 you get a nice looking bike.
Question is: What is wrong with the bikes on my list above as compared to the Specialized S Works? I certainly do not know. They all look pretty good to me. I do have friends who are helping out with analyzing the fine points.

Ridley doesn't have bottle cage mounts. This is because you don't mount cages for CX racing. But if you're planning on longer rides, I think you'd want them.

Heck, if Stevens works for Katie Compton, I'd give that a shot (assuming I fit on it). Also, given that you're looking at cross bikes, make sure there's enough standover that you won't be annoyed or uncomfortable.

Ridley doesn't have bottle cage mounts. ...
I had a 2010 Ridley X-Fire. It has bottle cage mounts. The X-Night does not have bottle cage mounts. I sold the Ridley X-Fire to buy the 2010 Stevens Team Carbon. I am much happier with that bike. The X-Fire has an extraordinarily tall stand over height and the ride harsh for my taste on asphalt pavement. The X-Fire is so tall that it feels tippy and unstable when cornering. The Stevens Team Cross has a lower center of gravity, better vertical compliance, with a stiff bottom bracket. The best way to decide is to test ride the bikes that you are considering.

How about the Specialized Tricross Carbon? http://www.specialized.com/us/en/bc/SBCBkModel.jsp?sid=10Tricross&eid=4670&menuItemId=9263

A huge price tag for a bike with a reputation for for shudder. Paying more for a Tricross than a Stevens or Ridley seems utterly crazy.

Ridley doesn't have bottle cage mounts. This is because you don't mount cages for CX racing. But if you're planning on longer rides, I think you'd want them.

Heck, if Stevens works for Katie Compton, I'd give that a shot (assuming I fit on it). Also, given that you're looking at cross bikes, make sure there's enough standover that you won't be annoyed or uncomfortable.

There are lots of ways of mounting bottles without cages - this might be useful:

http://www.nordicgroup.us/cageboss/

(I amazed myself this year by managing to ride up to four hours at a time, mostly off road, without water to see if I could. It wasn't a smart thing to do though!)

Will doesn't want the bike for racing - more for riding roughish roads. He does want a compliant shock absorbing frame and thinks CF is the way to get this... (Yes, people told him otherwise - and that the bike he probably wants is a Cross Check. But Will likes carbon. Fortunately he got warned that the Ridley is VERY taut - nice save, Pharding*.)

What he'd probably benefit hearing about from anyone who has ridden these is -

- Does the frame have the road bike-ish position he is looking for? (The Ridley has a short top tube and highish BB for example, which sounds great to me but isn't what Will wants.)

- Is the frame nicely compliant, buzz absorbing, not too hard?

- Are there any fork shudder/brake squeal issues? (At this price I'd bloody well hope not!)

*Will - you have seen Pharding's review of his Stevens?

Oh. Good idea actually now that I have thought about it. Have you seen this? http://bit.ly/5YdQfq
A Ridley X-Fire with road fork and road front brakes. Pretty cool I think and you get better braking up front.

I haven't ridden any of these bikes, but have certainly drooled over them. :) I guess I would choose one based on geometry, reviews, and bottom bracket/tt height. Your list is great, and I hate to add another bike to make the decision more difficult, but have you looked at the Ibis Hakkalugi? The price is in your ballpark. I test road one a River City in Portland and loved it. I thought it was a very compliant bike and felt very roadish. Here is a link: http://www.ibiscycles.com/road/hakkalugi/

I had a 2010 Ridley X-Fire. It has bottle cage mounts. The X-Night does not have bottle cage mounts. I sold the Ridley X-Fire to buy the 2010 Stevens Team Carbon. I am much happier with that bike. The X-Fire has an extraordinarily tall stand over height and the ride harsh for my taste on asphalt pavement. The X-Fire is so tall that it feels tippy and unstable when cornering. The Stevens Team Cross has a lower center of gravity, better vertical compliance, with a stiff bottom bracket. The best way to decide is to test ride the bikes that you are considering.

I can not express enough how I appreciate your reply.
I truly would like to test ride these bikes but there is nobody within driving range who has them in stock. I am currently in Ocala region, Florida. There is a Kuota dealer in Tampa (for instance) who has TT and Road bikes but no CX bikes. Stevens is not around here at all. Rockford, Illinois has same story. There may be something in Chicago or Madison. That is 200 miles round trip.
I will probably buy a bike in part on recommendations such as yours. Right now I like what you say about Stevens and the price is right.
A friend is looking at Kuota for me. Looks good but that is all I know.
Again thanks.

Ridley doesn't have bottle cage mounts. This is because you don't mount cages for CX racing. But if you're planning on longer rides, I think you'd want them.

Heck, if Stevens works for Katie Compton, I'd give that a shot (assuming I fit on it). Also, given that you're looking at cross bikes, make sure there's enough standover that you won't be annoyed or uncomfortable.

Stevens seems to be the best for me based on price and what I know about it. There is no Stevens bike near me to test. That means I will be buying it blind.
Ridely was described to me as an excellent bike for its purpose but TWITCHY for long distance rides as I do. The water bottle issue is a bother but not a show stopper because i can mount 2 bottles behind the saddle as Triathlon bikers do and I can mount a bottle between the Aerobars.
The stand over height needs to be studied by looking at the numbers of the frame. I hope that is good enough. I will also talk at length with the dealer but they are in Massachusetts.

A huge price tag for a bike with a reputation for for shudder. Paying more for a Tricross than a Stevens or Ridley seems utterly crazy.

Yep, the S Works is dead.

Oh. Good idea actually now that I have thought about it. Have you seen this? http://bit.ly/5YdQfq
A Ridley X-Fire with road fork and road front brakes. Pretty cool I think and you get better braking up front.

I haven't ridden any of these bikes, but have certainly drooled over them. :) I guess I would choose one based on geometry, reviews, and bottom bracket/tt height. Your list is great, and I hate to add another bike to make the decision more difficult, but have you looked at the Ibis Hakkalugi? The price is in your ballpark. I test road one a River City in Portland and loved it. I thought it was a very compliant bike and felt very roadish. Here is a link: http://www.ibiscycles.com/road/hakkalugi/

Ibis has a dealer in Chicago and Zion, IL. I was amused to read that another enthusiastic steel bike frame supplier now offer CF. Now they have to come up with stories why they made that switch.
Remember I am a Mechanical Engineer. As such I am fully familiar with conflicting objectives. I have seen computers locking up because of conflicting objectives could not be consolidated or the differences were so small that in the end "a Butterfly flaps its wings and that affects outcome" (an Engineering inside joke).

I can not express enough how I appreciate your[Pharding's] reply.


I think Pharding uses his bike in much the way you intend to use yours - as a fast gravel road basher, rather than a true off roader.

If you have to buy mail order, I'd check the return policy of the seller carefully - being able to send the bike back for a smaller or larger frame might prove critical.

Ibis has a dealer in Chicago and Zion,

The Hakluigi (sp?) is a real looker, but you should regard the manufacturer's description of the geometry as at least a warning: "Geometry is classic cross." That could mean a short toptube, a high BB and a high riding position. So agile off road with lots of scope for MTBish body movement, but tippy. Like the Ridley. Perhaps Dadoes could comment a bit more?

The Hakluigi (sp?) is a real looker, but you should regard the manufacturer's description of the geometry as at least a warning: "Geometry is classic cross." That could mean a short toptube, a high BB and a high riding position. So agile off road with lots of scope for MTBish body movement, but tippy. Like the Ridley. Perhaps Dadoes could comment a bit more?

Not sure what they mean by "classic". I just test road it on some pavement and a grass field and I noticed that seemed to handle like my Opal (I believe Orbea's make great handling bikes) . So maybe the tt is shorter, not sure. I don't remember it feeling tippy, but I wasn't paying attention for that. It seemed fast and light, which is what I was looking for.

Not sure what they mean by "classic". I just test road it on some pavement and a grass field and I noticed that seemed to handle like my Opal (I believe Orbea's make great handling bikes) . So maybe the tt is shorter, not sure. I don't remember it feeling tippy, but I wasn't paying attention for that. It seemed fast and light, which is what I was looking for.

Possibly it was just meaningless marketing verbiage. I think most of us would interpret classic as high BB etc. but to a marketing droid...

If you can get past the CF thing, look into the Cannondale CX9.

LOVE my CX9!

LOVE my CX9!

Talked to a dealer today. They have Colagno, Orbea, Bianchi, Scott and Cannondale. All except Cannondale had CF on the top offers including the CX bikes they offer.
So I asked how that is going. They rolled their eyes and said C'dale will have to adapt. Soon.
I had a C'dale with CF fork. Never again. It had a horrible ride. Very expensive lesson for me.

The Hakluigi (sp?) is a real looker, but you should regard the manufacturer's description of the geometry as at least a warning: "Geometry is classic cross." That could mean a short toptube, a high BB and a high riding position. So agile off road with lots of scope for MTBish body movement, but tippy. Like the Ridley. Perhaps Dadoes could comment a bit more?

I created a spreadsheet comparing the Geometry of;
Madone RB 58 cm
Stevens CX 55 cm
Kuota CX 55 cm
Scott CX 56 cm
Ridely CX 50 cm
Blue 54 cm
Ibis 55 cm
The reason of the small frame size as compared to the Madone is the Standover height. The Madone is 786 mm and I did not think that I want much over 800 mm.
Interesting is that all CX bikes have a longer wheelbase and chainstay. The Madone has a greater head angle which I was told has to do with comfort.
I sort of think that the Ridely is out.

I think Pharding uses his bike in much the way you intend to use yours - as a fast gravel road basher, rather than a true off roader.

If you have to buy mail order, I'd check the return policy of the seller carefully - being able to send the bike back for a smaller or larger frame might prove critical.

Yeah, I think I will pay more to put an LBS in the middle to protect for that. I will have to be really careful with the contract.
I am thinking that the Stand over Height is critical?
The Madone is 786 mm. Allow for 32 mm tires and higher off the ground Bottom Bracket and you need a smaller bike frame to keep the Stand over Height reasonable. I am thinking 800 mm?
OTOH we can not have too small a frame or I feel crowded on the bike?
Complicated!

I can not express enough how I appreciate your reply.
I truly would like to test ride these bikes but there is nobody within driving range who has them in stock. I am currently in Ocala region, Florida. There is a Kuota dealer in Tampa (for instance) who has TT and Road bikes but no CX bikes. Stevens is not around here at all. Rockford, Illinois has same story. There may be something in Chicago or Madison. That is 200 miles round trip.
I will probably buy a bike in part on recommendations such as yours. Right now I like what you say about Stevens and the price is right.
A friend is looking at Kuota for me. Looks good but that is all I know.
Again thanks.
If you are interested in test riding a Stevens Team Carbon in size 58, PM me and you can test ride mine in west suburban Chicago. I purchased mine from the Pony Shop in Evanston, Illinois. The owner, Lou, is one of the finest cyclocross racers in the Chicago area and he did a spectacular job building my bike. I just bought my third frameset from Lou, a Stevens Team Carbon in size 52 for wifey as a Christmas present. Hopefully she does not follow this forum or else it won't be a surprise.

If you are interested in test riding a Stevens Team Carbon in size 58, PM me and you can test ride mine in west suburban Chicago. I purchased mine from the Pony Shop in Evanston, Illinois. The owner, Lou, is one of the finest cyclocross racers in the Chicago area and he did a spectacular job building my bike. I just bought my third frameset from Lou, a Stevens Team Carbon in size 52 for wifey as a Christmas present. Hopefully she does not follow this forum or else it won't be a surprise.

I am very interested and thank you for the offer. PM will be following.
Did you know that we are in Florida right now? I will not be in your area until early in April 2010.
Does the Pony Shop sell complete and assembled Stevens Bikes?
Are you willing to talk to Lou in my behalf or should I contact Pony Shop in Evanston direct? Perhaps Lou will own you a favor if I buy a bike fro him because of your recommendation?
My requirements are simple for the Stevens. I want nothing special as compared to the website. The question is size 58 or 55 and of course price & terms of warranty. I am sure both will be useable for me but it is a matter of degrees. Perhaps Lou will be able to guide me? Your offer for a test ride will remove any lingering doubt.
Again many thanks and you will hear from me shortly.

April 2010 will be fine. I just bought Stevens framesets. I am not sure if Sinclair Imports is bringing in complete bikes or just the framesets. This is the first year so it may just be the framesets. You may wish to contact them directly. http://www.sinclairimports.com/

Lou at the Pony Shop is a great guy and very approachable. The phone number for the Pony Shop is 847.864.5775. I am not looking for anything.

The size is critical. I did a professional fitting and found it to be well worth the money but it is a couple hundred dollars. In general a cyclocross bike is one size smaller than a properly fitting road bike which puts the rider in a slightly more upright position for cyclocross racing so you can see better. I ride a 60 road bike and with a cyclocross tune up fitting with the professional fitter I went to the 58.

According to the Stevens web site for 2010 the bike is offered in 56 not 55. http://www.stevensbikes.de/2010/index.php?bik_id=201&sect=geometry&lang=de_DE

April 2010 will be fine. I just bought Stevens framesets. I am not sure if Sinclair Imports is bringing in complete bikes or just the framesets. This is the first year so it may just be the framesets. You may wish to contact them directly. http://www.sinclairimports.com/

Lou at the Pony Shop is a great guy and very approachable. The phone number for the Pony Shop is 847.864.5775. I am not looking for anything.

The size is critical. I did a professional fitting and found it to be well worth the money but it is a couple hundred dollars. In general a cyclocross bike is one size smaller than a properly fitting road bike which puts the rider in a slightly more upright position for cyclocross racing so you can see better. I ride a 60 road bike and with a cyclocross tune up fitting with the professional fitter I went to the 58.
According to the Stevens web site for 2010 the bike is offered in 56 not 55. http://www.stevensbikes.de/2010/index.php?bik_id=201&sect=geometry&lang=de_DE

You are being very helpful and I will follow your advise. It will probably be after the Holidays before I can sort things out. It looks good.
BTW, I am 6'1" with 33' in-seam on my pants. A size 58 Madone requires me to move the saddle all the way forward for most comfort. I think that the Stevens 56 may be optimum and the 58 requires the saddle forward for me.
What is your opinion?
I will go to a professional fitter if that is the thing to do. I do not trust anyone here in Rockford. Not enough bikers. Do you have the contact info for a competent fitter? BTW, I do not do races but bike a lot. Well over 10,000 miles per year. That is why a good fit is important.
My ignorance shows in this question: How does the professional fitter relate to a Stevens bike he/she does not have? Does the fitter relate just to the published geometry?

Update
I just had an unpleasant email exchange with Stevens.
--------------------------------
Hi Mike,
There is a misunderstanding here. I have limited knowledge of Stevens and relied on this website:
http://www.stevensbikes.de/2009/index.php?bik_id=526&sect&lang=en_US&cou=US
It shows a recommended suggested retail price of $2,799.00 for the Carbon Team Ultegra Bike.
Please forgive me if I took that website seriously.
Why is it published if it is not available? Is that a price FOB Stevens factory in Hamburg?
Please clarify.
I am comparison shopping for CF Cyclocross comparing: Stevens, Kuota, Scott, Bianchi, Ibis, Blue.
Best Regards, Wilfried
------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Wilfred:
In 2009 Stevens had a Canadian distributor that handled the US. That 2009 web site is obsolete and I am not sure why Stevens still has it live? There is no Stevens “factory” in Hamburg. We purchase our frames from factory direct from China where they are manufactured.
The 2010 Stevens Caron Team Cyclocross frame set is $1699 MSRP which is actually cheaper than it is in Germany. With an Ultegra parts kit it would retail for around $3500.
Thanks,
Mike
---------------------------------------------------------
I am not happy with that situation at Stevens and will see Kuota next.

That's not an American site, and I can't seem to get the Euro site to give me an American price on the 2010 model that's out now. I'm wondering if the price in that link is in Euros or Canadian dollars, maybe. I'm not even sure that Stevens had a US distributor last year, but I may well be wrong on that point. You're looking at the 2009 to begin with, so there's that as well. I wouldn't let that steer you away from the bike if it hits the mark on geometry and the like.

Get a Grip Cycles has an outstanding professional fitting studio in the Chicago and they are great to work with. Ask for Adam. Both my wife and I have had fittings with Adam. We have been quite happy with the great results. With a professional fitting all the dimensions are optimized on a fitting cycle based upon your body's dimensions, flexibility, and riding objectives. From that you can select a bike based upon which geometry and features work best for you. It would be best to get dimensions for a road bike with slight adjustments for a cross bike. With a professional fitting you will optimize comfort and efficiency/power.

I did some more checking and calling around. We do not know exactly which bike will feel more comfortable for 100 mile ++ rides.
Let us not forget all the comments about tire size and tire air pressure. All of that comes into play.
I have the exact measurements of the Trek Madone. By that I mean the distance from hand on hoods point to sit bone contact on saddle. The difference of saddle contact to ground and hood contact to ground. Also Distance from pedal to saddle sit bone contact.
All that can be duplicated. The Madone has a much greater angle from vertical for the head tube. I believe that will affect comfort but I am betting that the softer tires will negate that.
I do not like the stand offish attitude of the Stevens Importer.
I can do as "pharding" says and get an independent "Professional Fitting Studio" to assist the size selection.
I can also, for about the same money, get a bike from Kuota Kross with professional fitting from the same dealer who sells me the bike.
I am risk adverse and have seen one professional pointing fingers at the other and the customer stands bewildered in the middle.
Stevens or Kuota CF bikes look comparable to me. If someone on this Forum knows something else that would be of interest, please.
------------------------------
The Stevens website above is wrong. Yes, it is a 2009 Canadian generated site. Why does Stevens allow that site on the open Internet?
Does Stevens not care what someone does under their name? If they were a good organized company they would apologize and remove that site.
I now wonder what they will do if there is a quality or warranty problem? If Stevens does not care, I rather do not do business with them.
Stevens certainly offers no price advantage and the frame comes from China as all the other ones. The components are Sram or Shimano. Nothing to do with Stevens.
So, my question is, what do they offer? Marketing Buzz? Certainly no help in choosing the proper bike.

http://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=56749

If you want to be comfortable on 100+ mile rides, wouldn't a Rivendell (or similar) be more useful? It's well within the price point you are discussing, even if you went with a custom frame.

I guess if you're totally hung up on carbon fiber they won't satisfy, but if you want a comfortable bike for long rides, it seems unrealistic to expect to find it amongst a set of bikes designed to be ridden at a super high intensity for 30-60 minutes at a time.

I don't mean to sound rude or anything, just making a suggestion. It is, of course, your money to spend however you see fit.

The Madone has a much greater angle from vertical for the head tube. I believe that will affect comfort but I am betting that the softer tires will negate that.

I think you have this the wrong way around: the Madone's head tube angle will be more nearly vertical. This gives faster steering, but at the expense of stability and the need for constant minor steering corrections - the Steven's will be more comfortable, so far as one can predict from this one aspect of geometry.

Deadforkinglast - yes, we've been through this with Will. Although I don't think he needs to spend Rivendell money; a Surly Cross Check would be perfect for his needs. He could pick one up used on ebay for $500-800(?) and sell it for the same amount if he didn't like it. But Will insists he must have a carbon fibre bike. Partly because everyone else rides them so they must be good, partly because he likes his Madone, which is CF, and didn't like the alu bike he was sold previously. (Although as I remember that was badly mis-sized, which maa have been the real problem...)

Really Will - I think it would make sense to *try* the Cross Check. Even if you didn't plan to keep it riding a used Cross Check would give you a valuable insight into what you want before spending the big bucks.

Even a new Cross Check is only a $1000, if you're ok with bar end shifters. (Which can be swapped later for brifters if it turns out the bike is a keeper.) Tough, comfortable, 95% as fast as the fastest racing bike, reasonably cheap, one of the bikes most praised by owners, ultra versatile - what's not to like? Where's the risk?

I was a couple days out of communication because we were on some remote island in SW Florida.
Reading above well meaning posts I humbly want to share a very recent experience on December 24. I am all set for my exercise ride of 70 miles but bump into this group of bikers. Youngest perhaps low 20's, oldest perhaps 50. There were 12 of them. I made the mistake of asking if I could join. They said sure.
Next thing I know we are biking on winding country roads at full speed in a pace line of speeds never below 22 and up to 27 MPH all flat but lots of cross winds. My Heart rate went up to 165 which is high for a 68 year old.
Long story short, I was able to keep up barely. They stopped after 40 miles of that and I got a chance to look at their bikes. One Litespeed and the rest were CF. Lots of Giants and several Madone. No Aluminum or Steel.
I want to do the same biking with the bike under discussion if called for. I think it is fun to be able to do that. Keeps me motivated.
I am still shopping and I am now at UBC in Tampa, FL discussing Kuota. I am also looking at Blue Norcross. I will call the guy in Evanston, IL who is recommended by pharding.
It would be nice if someone knows something of those bikes.
Thanks for the comments above.

http://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=56749

Pharding,
You seem to be more detail oriented then I will ever be.
Question: Did you study Blue, Norcross? Kuota Kross?
If you did study those bikes why did you choose Stevens? Is there something I should know but do not? Please do not hold back. I just like to know the difference between those bikes.
I guess your link says that the cable routing on the Kuota is not so hot? I hear that but do not really understand. What does that do?

I think you have this the wrong way around: the Madone's head tube angle will be more nearly vertical. This gives faster steering, but at the expense of stability and the need for constant minor steering corrections - the Steven's will be more comfortable, so far as one can predict from this one aspect of geometry.

Deadforkinglast - yes, we've been through this with Will. Although I don't think he needs to spend Rivendell money; a Surly Cross Check would be perfect for his needs. He could pick one up used on ebay for $500-800(?) and sell it for the same amount if he didn't like it. But Will insists he must have a carbon fibre bike. Partly because everyone else rides them so they must be good, partly because he likes his Madone, which is CF, and didn't like the alu bike he was sold previously. (Although as I remember that was badly mis-sized, which maa have been the real problem...)

Really Will - I think it would make sense to *try* the Cross Check. Even if you didn't plan to keep it riding a used Cross Check would give you a valuable insight into what you want before spending the big bucks.

Even a new Cross Check is only a $1000, if you're ok with bar end shifters. (Which can be swapped later for brifters if it turns out the bike is a keeper.) Tough, comfortable, 95% as fast as the fastest racing bike, reasonably cheap, one of the bikes most praised by owners, ultra versatile - what's not to like? Where's the risk?

We were just house sitting with some friends. A Condo with 3 balkonies overlooking the Gulf and a Masarati in the Garage.
Nobody needs a $3,000,000 Condo and a $100,000 car but lots of people drive it in Naples and more expensive.
Perhaps the CF bike is overkill for me but if it provides the happiness I get from the Madone I will be happy and never look at the cost.

If you want to be comfortable on 100+ mile rides, wouldn't a Rivendell (or similar) be more useful? It's well within the price point you are discussing, even if you went with a custom frame.

I guess if you're totally hung up on carbon fiber they won't satisfy, but if you want a comfortable bike for long rides, it seems unrealistic to expect to find it amongst a set of bikes designed to be ridden at a super high intensity for 30-60 minutes at a time.

I don't mean to sound rude or anything, just making a suggestion. It is, of course, your money to spend however you see fit.

You are trying to be helpful so I would not think you are rude.
The facts are this: I go long distance all the time and as fast as I can. It is rare that I get passed but it happens and I am not slowing down but try to improve my biking style, equipment and training. I can do SOLO 20 MPH AVERAGE on the flats for 60 miles or more. Much of my biking is on Limestone requiring 32 tires (unfortunatly).
So, I am trying to find a road bike with 32 mm tires which is as fast as my Road Bike with 25 mm tires (or close to it).
That is what this long thread is all about. Not about money (well almost not)!

[QUOTE=meanwhile;10193029]I think you have this the wrong way around: the Madone's head tube angle will be more nearly vertical. This gives faster steering, but at the expense of stability and the need for constant minor steering corrections - the Steven's will be more comfortable, so far as one can predict from this one aspect of geometry.



Really Will - I think it would make sense to *try* the Cross Check. Even if you didn't plan to keep it riding a used Cross Check would give you a valuable insight into what you want before spending the big bucks.

Even a new Cross Check is only a $1000, if you're ok with bar end shifters. (Which can be swapped later for brifters if it turns out the bike is a keeper.) Tough, comfortable, 95% as fast as the fastest racing bike, reasonably cheap, one of the bikes most praised by owners, ultra versatile - what's not to like? Where's the risk?QUOTE]

OK, got it.:o

I gave my Trail Bike to the most beloved son of my wife. That gave me the opportunity to get my dream bike. But only one bike! Only one chance.[/];)

Have you considered going with something custom like a Calfee? I bet you could get them to build you a frame that would be exactly what you are looking for. Road bike geo with stays and fork wide enough to put the tires you want. Then just slap some long reach caliper brakes on and you're done. www.calfeedesign.com

We were just house sitting with some friends. A Condo with 3 balkonies overlooking the Gulf and a Masarati in the Garage.
Nobody needs a $3,000,000 Condo and a $100,000 car but lots of people drive it in Naples and more expensive.
Perhaps the CF bike is overkill for me but if it provides the happiness I get from the Madone I will be happy and never look at the cost.

The problem isn't that the CF bike is likely to be overkill, more that it may be friendly fire.

As people keep trying to explain, CF cross bikes are usually designed as specialized tools for brutal hour long races ridden by masochistic elite athletes, NOT as comfortable all-day riders like your Madone! The cross bikes that are designed as versatile all-day bikes are steel and alu - the Cross Check, Roadrat, the Kona Jake. Your Madone isn't comfortable becaue it is CF but because the geometry was designed for all-day riding and appropriate CF weave used.

The cross bike market is small and CF bikes are a small - although growing - part of it. I'm not convinced that you will find a CF bike with the characteristics that you want. You really shouldn't, because the CF bikes should be designed as dedicated racers - that's what they are sold as. Fortunately the benefits of wider tyres should make up for an over-taut frame - but spending more money to get a frame that is a poorer fit for your specified desires seems "non-optimal" to me. I do think that you should consider this.

As for "But everyone else ride carbon -" Well, good luck with that "Everyone else is always right" theory.

If you really want to spend big money you could contact a custom builder- I'd start with Steelman - and say that you want a an 18-20lb steel bike with clearance for at least 32mm tyres. long arm calipers or mini-vees, and the same geometry as your Madone. With a tube set aimed at getting a cushiony ride. And you might want to add a smidge more trail for rougher roads.

Which reminds me: from what you say about your saddle position you should put a shorter stem on your Madone - you should never move the saddle to adjust reach.

Have you considered going with something custom like a Calfee? I bet you could get them to build you a frame that would be exactly what you are looking for. Road bike geo with stays and fork wide enough to put the tires you want. Then just slap some long reach caliper brakes on and you're done. www.calfeedesign.com

Yes, I have considered that but do not wish to be in the middle of custom build components not working as expected. I am a mechanical Engineer by training and know enough to avoid that if possible.
There are wonderful bikes you can purchase complete. Many choices, price and many opinions as you read in this thread. I think the wrong way is to think that any opinion is right absolutely.
I have talked to a great number of well meaning experts. There are conflicting expert opinions.
Read on in this thread about that.

Interesting visit to University Bicycle Center (UBC) in Tampa. The Co-Owner Manny consulted with me for 1-2 hours. UBC is a big store with lots of bikes and a big build/repair shop. I have seen Specialized, Cannondale, Trek, Kuota, Scott and all kinds of MTB on their floor.
I asked Manny to recomend a bike describing my riding style and environment. He said that the best choice for me is CF all things considered including cost.
Blue Norcross and Stevens were discussed and so was Specialized S Works.
We discussed briefly Titanium but Manny said that a quality Ti bike will cost more then CF. Manny believes that CF is the way of the future. He has his money where his mouth is. Lots of CF Bikes on his floor.
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Next we discussed available CF CX bikes. KUOTA and SCOTT were presented as good choices for the money with Scott offering better wheels (with eyelets in rim) and better components (Shimano Ultegra).
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Manny made measurments of me and my Madone. He said the same as "meanwhile" above: I need a shorter stem on the Madone. The L size should fit me on the Kuota or the Scott.
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http://scottusa.com/us_en/product/8294/45031/addict_cx

http://scottusa.com/us_en/company

Yes, I have considered that but do not wish to be in the middle of custom build components not working as expected. I am a mechanical Engineer by training and know enough to avoid that if possible.
There are wonderful bikes you can purchase complete. Many choices, price and many opinions as you read in this thread. I think the wrong way is to think that any opinion is right absolutely.
I have talked to a great number of well meaning experts. There are conflicting expert opinions.
Read on in this thread about that.

Sorry, I thought you were asking for options. I have read your thread and you seem to have a reason why each bike won't work for you so your best option may be to have something built that meets exactly what you're wanting. Yes, there are plenty of off the shelf bikes that are wonderful, but seems like they don't fit your strict requirements or else you wouldn't still be looking for that "perfect" bike.

Yes, I have considered that but do not wish to be in the middle of custom build components not working as expected. I am a mechanical Engineer by training and know enough to avoid that if possible.


The components on a custom build bike will be the same as a mass production. Only the frame will be different. And that will be much safer than a mass production bike. I still remember the Roubaix's Spec produced that didn't have enough clearance for the tyres they were sold with - they were unrideable the moment someone sat on them and the tyre squished.

All things considered I would still just go with the Stevens Carbon Team.

I get the feeling that I am offending some people here and that is not my intention. I started this thread not knowing anything about Cyclocross. I can not do Cyclocross for fear of breaking my bones at my age of 68. The road biking forum was directing me here because I needed a road bike configured for unpaved roads and trails. I do not want to do classic Cyclocross which includes jumping over things and going on really rough trails or no trails.
I needed to understand the difference between a Cyclocross and a Road bike. The dialog in this thread has done that for me and I am grateful for that education from "meanwhile", "pharding", "spongeDad" and many other. There has been and still is support from a friend in the BF 50+ who has coached me a lot.
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I am what I am. I am adverse to risk unless I have no choice. We considered building a bike but decided to search the market for a suitable Cyclocross bike which gives me the feeling of a CF road bike but with 32 mm or larger tires.
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Prior to this thread I knew nothing about any of these bikes we are discussing. I know a little more now so that I can make a decision on features, components, risk, price and appearance. I think.
I can get a nice Cyclocross bike for about $3,000 assembled with 3 day return policy. One year full warranty and full assistance with fitting all from one source. That makes me feel safe. I am asking the well meaning people in the post above to accept that the risk of a custom frame is perceived high by me. I simply do not trust that I know what to look for until I am stuck with my decision. A 3 day intense bike ride (on a bike which can be returned) will clear up any questions I may have of this standard bike. I can not do that with a made to order frame. It requires that I know what I want up front.
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The Stevens may be a great bike as pharding says. Stevens put me in the middle between a professional fitter, a remote frame supplier and component supplier and assembler.
I would need to understand that the Stevens is in some way much superior to Scott (where I can get everything from one source with a guarantee).
Also the cost would be much higher then $3,000 with Ultegra components.
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My friend in BF 50+ wanted me to go with Independent Fabrication steel bike frame. The cost would have been well over $5,000 with Ultegra components which I like. There may be lower cost custom frames but what do I know about them?
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Thanks for all the education.
http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/tech.php?id=tech/2008/reviews/scott_addict_cxrc08
http://images.scottusa.com/hires/215727.jpg

Will - you haven't come close to offending anyone. I think people are just concerned that the bike you are looking for doesn't exist. The are "comfort" crossers - eg the Cross Check. And there are CF ones. But a bike that's both??? Maybe not. There shouldn't be - this is a small market and the CF bikes are designed to race. If the Stevens is, then it's a lucky accident.

Will - you haven't come close to offending anyone. I think people are just concerned that the bike you are looking for doesn't exist. The are "comfort" crossers - eg the Cross Check. And there are CF ones. But a bike that's both??? Maybe not. There shouldn't be - this is a small market and the CF bikes are designed to race. If the Stevens is, then it's a lucky accident.

I am also concerned. My friend on BF 50+ send me that article in CyclingNews. I was thinking about that article all day while biking.
The article says basically this: Scott Addict CF bike is the lightest bike frame there is and the most rigid.
I think I know what that means: Large cross sections with thin walls. That may make for very uncomfortable bike rides of 4 to 10 hours per day which is what I do.
I may get the lowest weight racing machine and be miserable for these long rides. I am not sure about that since the 32 or bigger tires may make up for the frame stiffness. But maybe not? I do not want to get into a dispute with Manny at UBC in Tampa if I can avoid it.
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I have been busy reading the Internet. "Pharding" shows up all over and he really likes his Stevens.
I think I will put the Scott on hold and investigate things further including investigate the route that pharding took.
Perhaps things become clearer as time goes by?
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Oh, BTW, you deserve a medal for tolerance with discussing things with me.:)