Commuting - Sheldon Brown's locking technique versus... a herring!

Ok, not a herring, actually... a hand-held hacksaw. This was a burly double-walled mountain bike rim with a steel-bead tire. It took maybe 45 seconds to cut by hand on my first try. A cordless recip saw would've probably done it in 10 seconds.

http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff237/mechBgon/IMG_0148.jpg

Ni! :P

There is a hypothesis that the compressive force of spoke tension on the rim would bind the hacksaw blade. At the very last shred of rim, yes, it began to bind, which is why I pulled out the blade and gave the wheel a gentle kick that broke the rim. I could've broken that last scrap of rim by flexing it with my hands too.

No disrespect meant to the memory of Sheldon, but this is a potential weakness that I'm personally not comfortable with. I'm going to lock my rear wheel and frame. If you're OK with this possible vulnerability, then that's fine too :)

I can cut through a bicycle frame in under a minute. So much for your locking theory.

Wrecking a wheel to steal a bike frame is one thing, but wrecking the frame you're trying to steal?

I can cut through a bicycle frame in under a minute. So much for your locking theory.


You should be embarrassed that you thought that, much less typed it.

You should be embarrassed that you thought that, much less typed it.

Of course I was deadly serious.

Wrecking a wheel to steal a bike frame is one thing, but wrecking the frame you're trying to steal?

Pretty much my point. To the average thief looking to steal a bike, wrecking either pretty much defeats the whole point. And that's what the average thief is looking for: a bike he can pawn or turn around on craigslist. Not a frame.

If someone's more sophisticated and is stealing for the components, your shifters, bars, brakes, etc are gone anyway. Whether or not a wheel can be hacksawed through is immaterial: if someone wants your bike, it's gone. At the very least they can totally wreck it.

That's a valid point. I'm mainly shedding light on the mistaken idea that a built wheel has enough tension to stop a saw, either hand-held or powered. But you're right, someone who wants to take whatever they can get could easily walk off with my bike's stem, bars & controls if they had 30 seconds, a cable cutter, and one or two sizes of hex keys. I knew a guy who had that happen to his bike back in the '90s.

.....tis dark days indeed when passing strangers can say NI to an old woman....

.....tis dark days indeed when passing strangers can say NI to an old woman....

Yes, but what... is your favorite color?

Yes, but what... is your favorite color?
Blue. No - yellooooowwwww!!!

I'm sticking to locking wheel with frame using my U-Lock.

Its just as easy to lock both, so the question which begs is - why not?

Here's one in action

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9fLtdZyX-A

Blue. No - yellooooowwwww!!!

LMAO :D


I'm sticking to locking wheel with frame using my U-Lock.

Its just as easy to lock both, so the question which begs is - why not?

The usual answers are:

1) someone might try to use the bike's frame as leverage to "pop" a U-lock, damaging the frame in the process. My best solution to that would be to double-lock (bike anchored in two places, like in this pic (http://www.mechbgon.com/lock/dual_locks.jpg)).

2) locking just the wheel lets people use a more compact lock that's easier to stow and has less room for jacks and other attack tools. To lock the frame and the rear wheel, plus a decent-sized object like a parking meter, I'd pick a "long-shackle mini," a U-lock with a narrow but long shackle, and yeah, it's heavier than a pure mini and takes up more space.

https://www.kryptonitelock.com/images/products/997931.jpg https://www.kryptonitelock.com/images/products/997948.jpg

^ mini versus long-shackle mini, not to relative scale but you get the idea

So those are the two sides of the coin, more or less.

You should be embarrassed that you thought that, much less typed it.
lambo_VT and I are both guilty of thought crimes then. Both Hokies too I guess.

I'm kind of attached to my bike so I U lock, chain and cable when I'm around town. Thought is, that it makes it too much trouble and they move on...commuting though, I have a bike locker at work.

lambo_VT and I are both guilty of thought crimes then. Both Hokies too I guess.

:thumb:

Besides, some of us can't easily lock the wheel and the frame. No big deal though.

And... Go Hokies!

and there was much rejoicing

Not to keep harping on an obvious point which most of us know already, but:
If someone wants to steal your bike, it's going to happen. Unless you've posted armed guards at the perimeter of minefield in the middle of which you park your bicycle. With a laser grid alarm and targetted anti-aircraft weaponry to ward off helicopter based theft attempts. And even then, can you really trust the guards? :p

The reason the Sheldon Technique is particularly effective is because you have to break the bike, not the lock. Prybar, scissor jack, angle grinder, etc. attacks on the lock leave the bike in a condition where the thief can ride it away from the scene. Since most bike thefts aren't being performed by an organized ring driving around with a cargo truck ready to pick up the next haul, a thief needs to make an escape. Riding away is faster and draws a lot less attention than walking down the street shouldering a bike with a sawed in half back wheel.

and there was much rejoicing

Yes, indeed, they did eat Sir Robin's minstrels.

Now about that coconut...

Please! This is supposed to be a happy occasion. Let's not bicker and argue over who killed who.

Here is what I do...
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n95/teamontherun/mybike2.jpg

so far, its worked perfectly. If someone wants it though, its gone.

The reason the Sheldon Technique is particularly effective is because you have to break the bike, not the lock.

Out of curiosity, why can't the thief break the lock when Sheldon's technique is used? Seems it would be as feasible as usual, just whip out an angle grinder and chop it. Unless Sheldon's ghost haunts them or something :D


Here is what I do...
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n95/teamontherun/mybike2.jpg

so far, its worked perfectly. If someone wants it though, its gone.

Dude, your scissors is totally not protected there.

Dude, your scissors is totally not protected there.

I fear everyday that I will come home and they wont be there.:cry:

I fear everyday that I will come home and they wont be there.:cry:

If you have any roommates, it's a valid fear, too :D Or co-workers!

Out of curiosity, why can't the thief break the lock when Sheldon's technique is used? Seems it would be as feasible as usual, just whip out an angle grinder and chop it. Unless Sheldon's ghost haunts them or something :D

Part of the Sheldon Technique involves (like any good locking strategy) using the smallest lock possible. It's more difficult to break the lock with a pry/jack if there's no room inside the shackle to fit a tool because the space is already jammed full of wheel and lamppost.
Power grinders are another story entirely. Not much is going to defeat a power grinder.



Dude, your scissors is totally not protected there.
That's another layer of security. If a thief is trying to hack through that chain, he might slip and fall, stabbing himself on the scissors. :lol:

It's more difficult to break the lock with a pry/jack if there's no room inside the shackle to fit a tool because the space is already jammed full of wheel and lamppost.

I find that with an LS mini, it's pretty much filled up by a post and two stays, though:

http://www.mechbgon.com/lock/lsmini.jpg


That's another layer of security. If a thief is trying to hack through that chain, he might slip and fall, stabbing himself on the scissors.

Ohhh, I get it now :D

The reason the Sheldon Technique is particularly effective is because you have to break the bike, not the lock.
I agree, but it still makes me uneasy. I often find myself attaching my bike to some thickish sign post, forcing me to choose either frame or rear wheel. I always choose the frame. Perhaps it's a bit irrational, but I'd rather risk someone stealing my wheels than them having to have some form of transportation handy to pick the whole bike sans the rear wheel. And I don't even have brifters on my commuter :).

Others may know more though.

I agree, but it still makes me uneasy. I often find myself attaching my bike to some thickish sign post, forcing me to choose either frame or rear wheel. I always choose the frame. Perhaps it's a bit irrational, but I'd rather risk someone stealing my wheels than them having to have some form of transportation handy to pick the whole bike sans the rear wheel. And I don't even have brifters on my commuter :).

Others may know more though.

That's the true beauty of the Sheldon Technique, is although the lock only goes through the rear wheel, it effectively locks the frame in place. A thief can not remove the rear wheel, not the frame.

you all need to read his whole locking a bike section. ;)

That's the true beauty of the Sheldon Technique, is although the lock only goes through the rear wheel, it effectively locks the frame in place. A thief can not remove the rear wheel, not the frame.I think one of us is missing something, and if it's me - I can't see what. Some shrubberies, perhaps ;)?

Others may know more though.

Go lock your rear wheel up though the rear triangle and then try to take just the wheel off. I can save you time and say outside of your rear seat stay having a gap in it, you will not be able to pull it out. Becuase the lock will have to pass though the rear triangle. ;)

I can usually get the wheel and one stay by the bottom bracket around a post with the krypto not-quite-a-long shackle mini. bigger than the evo mini.

and how do you know he's the king?.....

because he hasn't got **** all over 'im

You should be embarrassed that you thought that, much less typed it.

It's okay if you want the bottle cage that much...

I had a U-lock on my old 1995 Schwinn Classic Cruiser and locked it to the stairwell once.

The thief just yanked it and broke the wood. I got it back at fair time when the guy was bragging to all the kids about the lowrider he was going to make and of course, the kids told the LBS owner about this neat bike and he knew only two were sold in this town and who owned them.

He's in the jailhouse now...

I had a U-lock on my old 1995 Schwinn Classic Cruiser and locked it to the stairwell once.

The thief just yanked it and broke the wood. I got it back at fair time when the guy was bragging to all the kids about the lowrider he was going to make and of course, the kids told the LBS owner about this neat bike and he knew only two were sold in this town and who owned them.

He's in the jailhouse now...

So there is some justice in this world!

and how do you know he's the king?.....

because he hasn't got **** all over 'im
Help! Help! I'm being oppressed!

So of the people here who have had bikes stolen, has anyone lost a bike while using the Sheldon method? Not even remotely suggesting it's failsafe, but I don't think I've heard a story yet regarding that.


edit: by the way, I don't have to lock my bike, for I am an enchanter. There are some who call me....Tim.

Help! Help! I'm being oppressed!

See the violence inherent in the system! See the violence inherent in the system!

"She turned me into a newt!"

"A newt?"

"I got better."

Power grinders are another story entirely. Not much is going to defeat a power grinder.In addition to a decent lock setup, I try to organise short but frequent blackouts wherever my bike is locked up. It's worked so far.

Serously, though. Making your bike harder to steal than the one parked next to it is far more important than making your bike nearly impossible to steal. For more sophisticated thieves, value enters into it, but for most opportunists who don't know a lot about bikes, an easy-to-steal Supercycle is better than a hard to steal Marinoni, and that same Supercycle that looks fresh from the store will look more appealing than a well-used by still mechanically sound Miyata.

I just dip my security chain in a gunpowder/wax solution so if any power tools try and cut it, the whole thing flashes creating a ton of smoke and a blind scared thief.

Ok, not a herring, actually... a hand-held hacksaw. This was a burly double-walled mountain bike rim with a steel-bead tire. It took maybe 45 seconds to cut by hand on my first try. A cordless recip saw would've probably done it in 10 seconds...No disrespect meant to the memory of Sheldon, but this is a potential weakness that I'm personally not comfortable with. I'm going to lock my rear wheel and frame. If you're OK with this possible vulnerability, then that's fine too :)


... To the average thief looking to steal a bike, wrecking either pretty much defeats the whole point. And that's what the average thief is looking for: a bike he can pawn or turn around on craigslist. Not a frame.

If someone's more sophisticated and is stealing for the components, your shifters, bars, brakes, etc are gone anyway. Whether or not a wheel can be hacksawed through is immaterial: if someone wants your bike, it's gone. At the very least they can totally wreck it.


That's a valid point. I'm mainly shedding light on the mistaken idea that a built wheel has enough tension to stop a saw, either hand-held or powered. But you're right, someone who wants to take whatever they can get could easily walk off with my bike's stem, bars & controls if they had 30 seconds, a cable cutter, and one or two sizes of hex keys. I knew a guy who had that happen to his bike back in the '90s.

I think we may be forgetting what Sheldon said on his web page

Some will object that felons might cut the rear rim and tire to remove the lock. Believe me, this just doesn't happen in the real world. First, this would be a lot of work to steal a frame without a useable rear wheel, the most expensive part of a bike, after the frame. Second, cutting the rear rim is much harder than you might think. Since the rim is under substantial compression due to the tension on the spokes, it would pinch a hacksaw blade tight as soon as it cut partway through. Then there are the wire beads of the tire, also difficult to cut. (http://www.sheldonbrown.com/lock-strategy.html)

He didn't say it couldn't be done, just that it would be difficult to do it and then the second most expensive part of the bike that is needed to sell the bike is gone.

I agree with his assessment that a thief going to all that trouble to get a bike without a rear wheel, just wouldn't be too likely to happen

Also worth noting is that OP was testing the saw technique, with some expectations based on what people here hypothesized, as well as having advanced knowledge of the forces present in a bicycle wheel. That said, he was more or less expecting the saw to bind at some point, whereas a simple thief (because a "good" thief would likely opt for another bike) in a hurry will likely get the blade pinched abruptly in mid-stroke, possibly snapping the blade. Not to mention the rupturing tube being a pretty good scare. Obviously, making sweeping generalizations about a bike thief's aptitude, sight unseen, is a good way to get a bike stolen, but I wouldn't count on these test results will be replicated by the neighborhood rockhead.

Since the rim is under substantial compression due to the tension on the spokes, it would pinch a hacksaw blade tight as soon as it cut partway through. Then there are the wire beads of the tire, also difficult to cut.[/URL]

He didn't say it couldn't be done, just that it would be difficult to do it and then the second most expensive part of the bike that is needed to sell the bike is gone.



Having done it myself, I don't agree about it being difficult. Actually, if I wanted to get through the rim faster, without resorting to power tools, I know another very quick, quiet method that I will not be disclosing here. Anyhow, the point of the thread (the, uh... Holy Grail? :D) is to give people an accurate idea of how resistant the rim is to attack, so they can make well-informed decisions about using whichever method they want to. Mission accomplished.



I agree with his assessment that a thief going to all that trouble to get a bike without a rear wheel, just wouldn't be too likely to happen

I see some BF members stating that thieves will steal parts off of parked bikes in their area, so the inverse (stealing a bike minus one part) seems plausible, at least in high-risk areas. In my area, the risk is probably not very high, but I'm not very tolerant of risk so I prefer to lock both the wheel and the frame. To each his own :beer:

This is my primary lock, if anyone's curious just how low my risk tolerance is. 7.5 pounds of supersized New York Faghedaboudit, often accompanied by a smaller Kryptonite U-lock for the front wheel, frame, and second stationary object:

http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff237/mechBgon/IMG_0162.jpg
serious lock is serious.

OK then. I'll bet we can all agree that a determined or professional thief will find a way to steal anything.

I bet most thieves are not pros that carry a wide variety of tools but a few opportunists carrying bolt cutters or jacks, maybe both.

I wonder how many are carrying hack saws and are willing to sacrifice a rear wheel to obtain the rest of the bike?

Another factor I consider when locking up is chain grease getting on the lock, then spreading to other stuff when the lock is put in my bag. If the lock touches the chain, it's bad news.

Matt

So, I've been thinking. I now theft is a problem, but just how bad is it?

I guess if bikes aren't registered, we really have little idea how many bikes are out on the streets at a time. As well, since many thefts are not reported (because it's not really going to help recover the bike) we don't know how many thefts there are. Therefore, we can't really get a scope of the problem. Everybody has a story, but if your bike hasn't been stolen, no one hears that story.

Of course, I wouldn't expect a bike to last for long if it isn't locked up, but I see so many examples of bikes that are using the worst quality locks, sometimes bikes are locked to themselves (or some other ineffective manner of protection), that I wonder how these last on the street.

I just did a bit of checking and I've found reports that say the Vancouver area has about 17,000 cycle commuters and about 1600 bikes stolen each year. Further to that, almost 95% of bicycle riders do so recreationally, so those 17,000 commuter bikes on the street only represent a possible 5% of the bikes out there. So (I'm sure my math is wrong here) that means 1600 out of 340,000 bikes go missing. That's less than one half of a percent of the total, isn't it?

I'll bet most of the thefts are near the downtown core that has a large population of druggies with bolt cutters looking to cut a lock and sell a bike for $20 so they can buy a rock. I'll bet the next largest contingent of thefts belong to thefts from homes where other items were stolen. I'd imagine the next largest group of bikes stolen are those where the bike was locked up poorly, or not at all, and some kid comes along and wants to go for a ride.

Just how bad is this problem if you're careful, park in a relatively secure area, and lock it up right? (considering there are relatively few pros out there and there's not much you can do to stop them)

So? We have ridden since the snows of winter covered this
land, through the kingdom of Mercea, through--

Where'd you get the coconut?

We found them.

Found them? In Mercea? The coconut's tropical!

What do you mean?

Well, this is a temperate zone.

The swallow may fly south with the sun or the house martin
or the plumber may seek warmer climes in winter yet these are not
strangers to our land.

Are you suggesting coconuts migrate?

Not at all, they could be carried.

What -- a swallow carrying a coconut?

It could grip it by the husk!

It's not a question of where he grips it! It's a simple
question of weight ratios! A five ounce bird could not carry a 1 pound
coconut.

Well, it doesn't matter. Will you go and tell your master
that Arthur from the Court of Camelot is here.

Listen, in order to maintain air-speed velocity, a swallow
needs to beat its wings 43 times every second, right?

Please!

Am I right?

I'm not interested!

It could be carried by an African swallow!

Oh, yeah, an African swallow maybe, but not a European
swallow, that's my point.

Oh, yeah, I agree with that...

Will you ask your master if he wants to join my court
at Camelot?!

But then of course African swallows are not migratory.

Oh, yeah...



(i have contibuted NOTHING to this thread....my apologies everyone)