I dream of owning a massive Hummer. I'd put "3" and CSA battle flag stickers on it! I give praise every single day that I live in a society where we have relatively cheap gas, Taco Bells and Walmarts, and where I can disproportionately contribute to the rape of our environment as my birthright! Oh...that's right...I alrady have an SUV and a van...I'm a monster! I do ride my bike a lot, so maybe I'm only sometimes a monster?

You said it, not me.


I dream of owning a massive Hummer. I'd put "3" and CSA battle flag stickers on it! I give praise every single day that I live in a society where we have relatively cheap gas, Taco Bells and Walmarts, and where I can disproportionately contribute to the rape of our environment as my birthright! Oh...that's right...I alrady have an SUV and a van...I'm a monster! I do ride my bike a lot, so maybe I'm only sometimes a monster?

You don't change people's minds by criminalizing them.

Only the govt can criminalize people.

You don't change people's minds by criminalizing them.

Only the govt can criminalize people.

That is a false statement.

Please enlighten.

Demonize is a different story, eh?


That is a false statement.

That is a false statement.

How so?

Please enlighten.

Demonize is a different story, eh?

Same story, same point.

From Wordnet...

Overview for "criminal"


The noun "criminal" has 1 sense in WordNet.

1. criminal, felon, crook, outlaw, malefactor -- (someone who has committed (or been legally convicted of) a crime)

The adjective "criminal" has 4 senses in WordNet.

1. criminal -- (relating to crime or its punishment; "criminal court")
2. condemnable, criminal, deplorable, reprehensible -- (bringing or deserving severe rebuke or censure; "a criminal waste of talent"; "a deplorable act of violence"; "adultery is as reprehensible for a husband as for a wife")
3. criminal -- (guilty of crime or serious offense; "criminal in the sight of God and man")
4. criminal, felonious -- (involving or being or having the nature of a crime; "a criminal offense"; "criminal abuse"; "felonious intent")

...I was using the 2nd sense above.

For example, I want to convince my co-workers to rely less on thier cars and bike commute. Do I...

A) Call them fat-assed destroyers of the Earth, who run down bicyclists and pollute the air.

-or-

B) Tell them of my positive commuting experiences - gas saved, fitness gained, beauty seen, etc... Encourage them to do the same.

An example from the environmental movement is in the book "Coyotes and Town Dogs". Instead of criminalizing (demonizing-whatever term you prefer) the logging employees, Judy Barri <sp?> successfully convinced many logging workers that the destructive practices of the logging company was not only a threat to the environment but a threat to the long term viability of thier jobs and community.

Language that deplores, condemns, criminalizes, or demonizes the actions or attributes of a given group of people is used to dehumanize them.

Bicycling is a much more positive experience when I rember that I am sharing the road with people just like me, no matter what they are driving.

"hoosier nimrod" was a bit harsh. I apologize for that. Working in my field makes you a bit jaded towards these sorts of issues, and since I can't say it to the people with whom I work, I said it to you. Undeserved from you... sorry.

The premise of my argument stands, however.


That's OK, hey I wish we could plan roads for "light vehicle usage"
Like little three wheel cars, scooters and bikes that could travel safely and not have to worry about
heavy cars and trucks. Tell those planners that's what we need!
In many places, it's not safe to drive a scooter or bike to work.

I recently read that suvs were the most attractive cars to women in a poll of thousands in Men's health. What's attractive about someone who needs an oversized, underused vehicle? (other than the 1 in 100 chance of a mountain/outdoor type like myself who could actually need one)

p.s. I still dont have one, in fact I dont have a car. I have 3 bikes- road, xc, and urban/dirt and a motorcycle that gets 45 mpg.

Keep the rubber side down

Howdy y'all! I'm new to this place-happened to come across it while doing a search on google for most fuel efficeint vehicle and then I hit "feeling lucky"....guess I hit the jackpot especially when I came across this post. I myself am a "WOMAN" driver as you men say...but I am not one of THOSE kind ;~) I drive a 1996 F250 Powerstroke Diesel w/ 300,000 miles on it...and yes I can personally say that I am the one that put those miles there...I have horses etc etc..blah blah....my diesel gets roughly about 18 city/21Hwy when runnin' empty(that means no trailer or livestockf or you city folks-no pun intended, honesty)
My biggest frustration is why in the world are these SUV's so popular and why do those City women/men feel like they are soooo powerful in these little four wheeler wanna be trucks? I have never ever met so many defensive women/men drivers on the HWY when they are drivin' them things-then to top it off they want to talk on the dang phone!! Granted that's a whole 'nother subject but still frustrating cause they can barely drive those things let alone talk on the phone all at the same time! Well felt like I needed to express my opinion....thought I was just being insane but glad to know that there are other folks that aren't thrilled w/ these things as well.
Oh....is there anyone that would know what vehicle would be the most fuel efficient...I personally don't prefer a small car...afterall I do drive a big ol' diesel...I would sure hate to have to settle for a SUV....lol...that was sarcasm ;~)
Thanks for lettin me say my 2 cents worth!

Here i am...an "SUV" owner. I own a Jeep Grand Cherokee. I am also a cyclist, a commuter, a camper, a scuba diver, a fisherman..actually fishwerwoman :), a nurse, a wife, a sister, an aunt, a cat lover. This is so lame...

Here i am...an "SUV" owner. I own a Jeep Grand Cherokee. I am also a cyclist, a commuter, a camper, a scuba diver, a fisherman..actually fishwerwoman :), a nurse, a wife, a sister, an aunt, a cat lover. This is so lame...


I personally have never looked at a Jeep Grand Cherokee as an SUV per say...afterall they were here long before the big hype of the "new" SUV thing.

I'll tell you what, since I started biking I' really starting to hate the big SUVs. One time I had this hummer behind me on a narrow country rode. There wasn't enough room for me and the hummer!

90% of the time I see an SUV there's one person it, and it certainly doesn't appear to be full of equipment. I remember when I was in middle school you weren't cool unless you had an Ocean Pacific t-shirt. Now that I'm all grown up, there are other symbols people use to be "cool". SUVs are definitely one of those symbols.

More people should try to simplify and look for deeper meanings in life, instead of turning their little allotment of life into a contest to get the most toys. Gotta have a big house, three kids, a dog, an SUV and a sports car, gotta marry a doctor . . .blah blah blah. Gotta earn more money to buy more crap to pay someone else's salary so they can buy more crap.

I'll tell you what, since I started biking I' really starting to hate the big SUVs. One time I had this hummer behind me on a narrow country rode. There wasn't enough room for me and the hummer!

90% of the time I see an SUV there's one person it, and it certainly doesn't appear to be full of equipment. I remember when I was in middle school you weren't cool unless you had an Ocean Pacific t-shirt. Now that I'm all grown up, there are other symbols people use to be "cool". SUVs are definitely one of those symbols.

More people should try to simplify and look for deeper meanings in life, instead of turning their little allotment of life into a contest to get the most toys. Gotta have a big house, three kids, a dog, an SUV and a sports car, gotta marry a doctor . . .blah blah blah. Gotta earn more money to buy more crap to pay someone else's salary so they can buy more crap.

Well, you COULD go amish, you're in the right part of the country

WOW a lot of SUV/auto haters here... I'm an automobile enthusiast! I have two sports cars (2002 Honda S2000 & 2004 BMW M3), I have an SUV on order (2005 BMW X3) and my fiancee drives a Mini Cooper. Flame me, but I love cars! :)

As far as safety goes, its not really the SUV thats the problem, its the driver behind the wheel of one. If driven properly, SUV's can be very safe. Drive slower, brake sooner, etc. Obviously I won't be driving my SUV like I drive my S2000. Unfortunately, most drivers don't realize they are in control of a 4 ton weapon/death trap and drive them like sports cars and expect them to handle like one.

As far as safety goes, its not really the SUV thats the problem, its the driver behind the wheel of one. If driven properly, SUV's can be very safe. Drive slower, brake sooner, etc. Obviously I won't be driving my SUV like I drive my S2000. Unfortunately, most drivers don't realize they are in control of a 4 ton weapon/death trap and drive them like sports cars and expect them to handle like one.

My suggestion would be to not waste your time with this. I've already gone down this route and presented the same arguments. You will find bull-headed people on both sides of the fence. Locking horns is an exercise in futility.

I'm assuming they're talking about high-speed accidents, but still... a 21-23% chance of rolling over is still unacceptable.

http://www.theiowachannel.com/automotive/3632241/detail.html

I despise large SUV creatures...they just don't make any sense for most of the population...now the Rav 4, CRV, Montero Sport stuff...I can see that.

Interestingly enough, my only close calls have been with SUVs with "W04" bumper stickers....hmmmmmm

I personally have never looked at a Jeep Grand Cherokee as an SUV per say...afterall they were here long before the big hype of the "new" SUV thing.

Some might say that they were one of the vehicles that promoted the SUV hype though. FWIW, the first vehicle that proclaimed itself to be an "SUV" was the Ford Bronco and that certainly predates the Jeep Grand Cherokee. The concept of the SUV has existed for much longer however. Most history buffs would point to the 1938 Chevy Suburban to be the originator of the SUV. In those days, "suburban", "carryall" and "depot hack" (named for a vehicle that helped carry people, cargo, and stuff from the train depots) were all generic terms for a vehicle that could carry passengers in comfort, with a lot of cargo capacity and ability to traverse unimproved roads. These vehicles had their origins back in the 1920s. Jeep however did put its hallmark on the concept of the SUV with the Wagoneer (precursor to the Grand Cherokee) and Willys Wagon. But this didn't occur until much later. It wasn't until the mid-late 1960s when Ford introduced the Bronco that the term "SUV" actually emerged.

Comes down to what's right for me may not be right for you .. so on and so. SUV is a dumb name for most of these vehicles though. I don't have an SUV but an equally hated vehicle by many here, a mid-sized 4-door pick-up as my do everything ride.

As for me, personally, it's just a case of "the right tool for the right job".
Proud Jeepster.

And when SUVs go out of style, you'll moan about wanting something else to go out of style.

Yes, if we still have freedom of speech.

I have owned a Jeep in one form or another since 1974....it's really not a "style" thing.

I'll tell you what, since I started biking I' really starting to hate the big SUVs. One time I had this hummer behind me on a narrow country rode. There wasn't enough room for me and the hummer!

90% of the time I see an SUV there's one person it, and it certainly doesn't appear to be full of equipment. I remember when I was in middle school you weren't cool unless you had an Ocean Pacific t-shirt. Now that I'm all grown up, there are other symbols people use to be "cool". SUVs are definitely one of those symbols.

More people should try to simplify and look for deeper meanings in life, instead of turning their little allotment of life into a contest to get the most toys. Gotta have a big house, three kids, a dog, an SUV and a sports car, gotta marry a doctor . . .blah blah blah. Gotta earn more money to buy more crap to pay someone else's salary so they can buy more crap.


You mean like a bicycle that costs $2,000+ dollars, instead of one for $800?

All I have to say is my 1990 Mitsubishi Montero is smaller than my Dad's 1996 Buick Roadmaster (both narrower and shorter), does fine with a mere 140hp 3.0l V6 at 160,000mi, will hold 4+ bikes in back with the rear seat folded, gets 21mph highway (w/ 33" tires) and tows our boat nicely as well. It also sees a lot of offroad usage as I'm a member of a 4x4 club, and I spend a few nights during heavy snows in the winter driving up and down the country roads to either recover vehicles that have slid off the road or to offer the motorists what assistance they want. Its a fun truck and its been incredibly reliable. Runs like a top at 160k :)

Wow, Hummers really are all show and no function!

http://generalhaberdashery.com/links/go.php?site=http://www.generalhaberdashery.com/links/poshummer.wmv

Wow, Hummers really are all show and no function!

http://generalhaberdashery.com/links/go.php?site=http://www.generalhaberdashery.com/links/poshummer.wmv

That video clip was discussed in this previous thread (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=53384).

Wow, Hummers really are all show and no function!

http://generalhaberdashery.com/links/go.php?site=http://www.generalhaberdashery.com/links/poshummer.wmv

It happens to all four wheelers in areas like that. That's why they have a winch on the front of the vehicle.

It happens to all four wheelers in areas like that. That's why they have a winch on the front of the vehicle.

The IFS on the Hummer H2 is a little more fragile though. Also, the driver took a bad line. A solid-axle would have handled that line fine because it would have tried to keep the entire body "in-plane" but the IFS got snagged. Hitting the accelerator was also a bad choice of action. So, the problem to me seems 80% driver skill (or lack thereof) and 20% vehicle design (or rather lack thereof).

I agree. I don't think any serious off roader would choose that behemoth as their ride. The Tahoe wasn't built to carry that sort of weight over any significantly rough terrain.

. But this didn't occur until much later. It wasn't until the mid-late 1960s when Ford introduced the Bronco that the term "SUV" actually emerged.


Which was a blatant copy of the International Scout.

Which was a blatant copy of the International Scout.

Yep. The IH Scout was a very nice vehicle and capable offroader. I would have picked a Scout over a Bronco anyday. The Scout itself took a page from the design of the Jeep CJ3B (aka "Universal Jeep") although it was bigger and heavier. It used the same transfer case and transmission, had removable doors, roof, fold-down front windshield. However, it had a weaker set of axles than the Jeep.

I'm sorry the tie rod should have stood up to that stab of the gas pedal, but anything that big should also have a solid front axel, a $14000 Wrangler would eat that POS alive, what a crock, I'll stick with Chrysler and Toyota products for actual use and abuse. If H2 owners really want to go off road it looks like they should cram a used $500 Suzuki Samuri in the back and let it handle the rocks.

I'm sorry the tie rod should have stood up to that stab of the gas pedal, but anything that big should also have a solid front axel, a $14000 Wrangler would eat that POS alive, what a crock, I'll stick with Chrysler and Toyota products for actual use and abuse. If H2 owners really want to go off road it looks like they should cram a used $500 Suzuki Samuri in the back and let it handle the rocks.


Talk about an overpriced piece of crap.
How much is a TOYOTA Landcruiser now, 70k?

Yeah, and I thought a 32k Wrangler Rubicon was absurd, at least it performs as advertised.

I'm sorry the tie rod should have stood up to that stab of the gas pedal

This assumes a properly sized and designed tie-rod. Independent suspension can be made to work. The Hummer H1 and the SPD-Pinzgauer proved that. However, doing so is expensive and requires much beefier material than what you'll find in the Hummer H2. The H2 was designed from a marketting standpoint first and a functional one last. They're selling image and not capability.

Yeah, and I thought a 32k Wrangler Rubicon was absurd, at least it performs as advertised.

Well, they had to come out with the TJ Rubicon... as an apology for the KJ (Liberty). ;)

Yo I gave this guy in a excursion a really dirty look.........then I learned he was a fed.

This thread and ones like it crack me up. :)

If someone wants to buy an SUV, be that a Suburban, Hummer, Expedition, whatever - big deal. It's called freedom and it's their right. So they never go offroad with it, whoopdeedoo. I've seen a ton of people riding $2k and up bikes that don't *need* to ride such an expensive or exotic bike either.
Oh wait, I've read plenty of posts by people lambasting folks overbuying on bikes too. Funny - it's still their right. Freedom.

Safety? Let's talk about motorcycles before we go too crazy on SUVs. I suppose one could make the argument that in a motorcycle crash, it's almost always only the person on the motorcycle who is affected - therefore they assume the risk themselves. At the same time, I read the other day that 90% of rollovers are single vehicle accidents. Same reasoning should apply.

Isn't the real issue that people drive some of these SUVs like they are cars and not like the truck-like vehicles that they are? Semi-trucks are MUCH more succeptible to rolling over, yet there isn't any outcry against them.

Let's just all take a few steps down off our high horses. ;)

There are just as many discourteous Honda Accord drivers (probably more) as there are Hummer drivers. Let's focus on the real issue - bicycle advocacy and safety education.

This thread and ones like it crack me up. :)

If someone wants to buy an SUV, be that a Suburban, Hummer, Expedition, whatever - big deal. It's called freedom and it's their right. So they never go offroad with it, whoopdeedoo. I've seen a ton of people riding $2k and up bikes that don't *need* to ride such an expensive or exotic bike either.
Oh wait, I've read plenty of posts by people lambasting folks overbuying on bikes too. Funny - it's still their right. Freedom.

Safety? Let's talk about motorcycles before we go too crazy on SUVs. I suppose one could make the argument that in a motorcycle crash, it's almost always only the person on the motorcycle who is affected - therefore they assume the risk themselves. At the same time, I read the other day that 90% of rollovers are single vehicle accidents. Same reasoning should apply.

Isn't the real issue that people drive some of these SUVs like they are cars and not like the truck-like vehicles that they are? Semi-trucks are MUCH more succeptible to rolling over, yet there isn't any outcry against them.

Let's just all take a few steps down off our high horses. ;)

There are just as many discourteous Honda Accord drivers (probably more) as there are Hummer drivers. Let's focus on the real issue - bicycle advocacy and safety education.

It would be cool is suvs were electric but they are not and bikes don't pollute.

I think it WOULD be nice if they went out of style because then most of the SUV drivers would be those who needed them rather than people who went out and bought them just because they were trendy. I agree, people can buy what they like but, for those of us who drive your average-size car it sure would be nice to be able to see past the car in front of us. That goes for being on the bike, too. I can easily see over most sedans but I can't see a darn thing when I'm behind an SUV.

Heres my SUV. See if you can find my 33" Superswampers in that pic :D Oh and my IFS does great, but then again its hard to break anything with 140hp V6, even with 4.62's :o

Heres my SUV. See if you can find my 33" Superswampers in that pic :D Oh and my IFS does great, but then again its hard to break anything with 140hp V6, even with 4.62's :o


33's are for _____s try ____ing 39's on 1980 silverado with a 10" lift and chevy smallblock.

33's are for _____s try ____ing 39's on 1980 silverado with a 10" lift and chevy smallblock.

Yah my friend had one... ZZ3 crate engine, 38's, blah blah blah, but he got sick of blowing the 700R4 trannies and having me tow his rig home. Plus it just didn't fit on trails. Its fun in the mud where you need the power but on the trails it just sucked. Plus I get to the trail, wheel all day, and drive home on a 1/4 tank of gas :D I've had a few cars and trucks, foreign and domestic, wheeled with anything that is made and 4wd, and found foreign is definately the only way to go for strength, size, and reliability. 160,000k mi and it did a nice 5,000k RPM hill climb towing a dead 4runner a few weeks ago, no worse for the wear.

Yah my friend had one... ZZ3 crate engine, 38's, blah blah blah, but he got sick of blowing the 700R4 trannies and having me tow his rig home. Plus it just didn't fit on trails. Its fun in the mud where you need the power but on the trails it just sucked. Plus I get to the trail, wheel all day, and drive home on a 1/4 tank of gas :D I've had a few cars and trucks, foreign and domestic, wheeled with anything that is made and 4wd, and found foreign is definately the only way to go for strength, size, and reliability. 160,000k mi and it did a nice 5,000k RPM hill climb towing a dead 4runner a few weeks ago, no worse for the wear.

Believe it or not the truck I described is my best friends daily driver his other car is a 1977 stock corvette and he wants to paint the truck pink.

33's are for _____s try ____ing 39's on 1980 silverado with a 10" lift and chevy smallblock.

Chevys are for _____s try a 77 Power Wagon with a 440, and a 727, turning 48s on Rockwell top loaders.

I am shocked and amazed at the number of wheelers posting in this forum. Sweet.

http://www.visi.com/~bsimon/jeep/images/moab01_helldorado_loaf.jpg

The real problem with SUVs is the sense of invincibility they give uneducated drivers. In the winter around here, particularly at the first snow, the majority of vehicles in the ditch are SUVs. Suckers.

yeah, they're probably republicans.

The real problem with SUVs is the sense of invincibility they give uneducated drivers. In the winter around here, particularly at the first snow, the majority of vehicles in the ditch are SUVs. Suckers.

Look at it this way... usually the damage is body damage so... more cheap replacement transfer cases and diffs for us when the idiots total their vehicles. ;)